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Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaskets? (Read 336 times)
Yazman
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Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaskets?
09/30/22 at 07:42:29
 
Yo fellow savages. I just sent payment for:

94mm flat top Wiseco piston
Lancer stage 3 cam
JFG Racing PWK38
VersiPlug

I have two questions:

1) What else do I need as far as gaskets/washers/o-rings? I've read all the threads I could, but I can't find a clear consensus.

Ones I know I'll need: cylinder base gasket, head gasket, Suzukibond for valve cover and clutch side cover

Ones I'm not sure if I'll need: cylinder to head o-ring, valve adjustment cover o-rings, head cover screw sealing washers, cylinder stud copper washers, exhaust gasket. More importantly, I can't even find half these on the microfiche.

2) Anything else I need, or should watch out for?

I know I'll have to modify my stock throttle cable at both ends to fit the PWK38, I'm gonna order extra cylinder head bolts for when I snap one, I have a Verslavey cam chain adjuster to put on, and I have a HoboFreight torque wrench. I also have molylube for the lobes and a feeler gauge for ring gap and valve clearance. I think I need a dingleball hone? What size? Piston break up in essentially just keeping up varying RPMs?

I'm reading the service manual and the relevant threads like I'm studying to get into Harvard. Despite this, I'll still likely screw something up!
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2011 RYCA - 94mm flat top Wiseco, stage 3 cam, PWK38, open exhaust, UNI filter, 14/52 chain drive
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske
Reply #1 - 09/30/22 at 07:59:33
 
Inspect your orings. Up top the pressure is nothing. If your fingertip says the rubber is standing proud and the mating surfaces are clean and smooth, it's good. Just feel for the rubber being knocked low somehow. I never replaced that stuff and it never leaked.
I don't remember what you said about how much you have handled the High Quality Chineseum bolts. But putting the head cover on it's a lot better to very carefully run the torque pattern four or five times than trying to clamp it down in two. I never used a torque wrench up there. Never had a leak. Or stripped threads.
Quarter inch, short ratchet,thumb on the ratchet head,use fingers to pull the ratchet and Feel the bolts as they achieve their clamping force. If you come around and hit a bolt that doesn't turn as far as the last one before you feel it coming tight, don't get frisky.
Go on to the next one and come back to it after everything around it is clamped. Test it easy..

It's just a bad place to mess up.
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Yazman
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Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske
Reply #2 - 09/30/22 at 08:02:36
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 09/30/22 at 07:59:33:
Inspect your orings. Up top the pressure is nothing. If your fingertip says the rubber is standing proud and the mating surfaces are clean and smooth, it's good. Just feel for the rubber being knocked low somehow. I never replaced that stuff and it never leaked.
I don't remember what you said about how much you have handled the High Quality Chineseum bolts. But putting the head cover on it's a lot better to very carefully run the torque pattern four or five times than trying to clamp it down in two. I never used a torque wrench up there. Never had a leak. Or stripped threads.
Quarter inch, short ratchet,thumb on the ratchet head,use fingers to pull the ratchet and Feel the bolts as they achieve their clamping force. If you come around and hit a bolt that doesn't turn as far as the last one before you feel it coming tight, don't get frisky.
Go on to the next one and come back to it after everything around it is clamped. Test it easy..

It's just a bad place to mess up.





Yeah, my last engine (Rebel 250) I crushed a cam cover and snapped off 2 head bolts before I hit torque spec. Ended up getting a new engine.

So you don't torque any of the bolts with a torque wrench? Not even the head/cylinder bolts?
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2011 RYCA - 94mm flat top Wiseco, stage 3 cam, PWK38, open exhaust, UNI filter, 14/52 chain drive
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Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske
Reply #3 - 09/30/22 at 10:15:02
 
Yazman wrote on 09/30/22 at 07:42:29:
I have two questions:

1) What else do I need as far as gaskets/washers/o-rings? I've read all the threads I could, but I can't find a clear consensus.

Ones I know I'll need: cylinder base gasket, head gasket, Suzukibond for valve cover and clutch side cover

I would use a clutch cover gasket

Quote:
Ones I'm not sure if I'll need: cylinder to head o-ring, valve adjustment cover o-rings, head cover screw sealing washers, cylinder stud copper washers, exhaust gasket. More importantly, I can't even find half these on the microfiche.

Yes to the cylinder head/valve cover o-ring, look for it in the cylinder head page.  You might get these just to be sure you don't have a problem, but I've only had an issue with sealing washer once, but they're cheap.  Used ones make great lock washers too.
Quote:
2) Anything else I need, or should watch out for?

I know I'll have to modify my stock throttle cable at both ends to fit the PWK38, I'm gonna order extra cylinder head bolts for when I snap one, I have a Verslavey cam chain adjuster to put on, and I have a HoboFreight torque wrench. I also have molylube for the lobes and a feeler gauge for ring gap and valve clearance. I think I need a dingleball hone? What size? Piston break up in essentially just keeping up varying RPMs?

I'm reading the service manual and the relevant threads like I'm studying to get into Harvard. Despite this, I'll still likely screw something up!


Some oil on the bolts will keep them from corroding, but note that lubricated threads need less torque to tighten down.  which is probably some people torque them off.
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Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske
Reply #4 - 09/30/22 at 11:09:28
 
Yazman wrote on 09/30/22 at 08:02:36:
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 09/30/22 at 07:59:33:
Inspect your orings. Up top the pressure is nothing. If your fingertip says the rubber is standing proud and the mating surfaces are clean and smooth, it's good. Just feel for the rubber being knocked low somehow. I never replaced that stuff and it never leaked.
I don't remember what you said about how much you have handled the High Quality Chineseum bolts. But putting the head cover on it's a lot better to very carefully run the torque pattern four or five times than trying to clamp it down in two. I never used a torque wrench up there. Never had a leak. Or stripped threads.
Quarter inch, short ratchet,thumb on the ratchet head,use fingers to pull the ratchet and Feel the bolts as they achieve their clamping force. If you come around and hit a bolt that doesn't turn as far as the last one before you feel it coming tight, don't get frisky.
Go on to the next one and come back to it after everything around it is clamped. Test it easy..

It's just a bad place to mess up.





Yeah, my last engine (Rebel 250) I crushed a cam cover and snapped off 2 head bolts before I hit torque spec. Ended up getting a new engine.

So you don't torque any of the bolts with a torque wrench? Not even the head/cylinder bolts?

I don't see how to get a torque wrench on the head Cover.
I've never had the head off,but I would do that by the book.
Those are real bolts. The little head cover bolts are counterfeit metal.
I'm not sure I would rerun the oem head bolts. I might want new quality bolts.
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Yazman
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Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske
Reply #5 - 09/30/22 at 11:42:52
 
Those tall bolts that go from the crankcase, through the cylinder and into the head, I'm leaving those bolts in if I can, just loosening the nut on top. Maybe I'll torque those, but snug the rest.

I just bought an OEM gasket "kit." I'm assuming it has all the goodies I need.
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2011 RYCA - 94mm flat top Wiseco, stage 3 cam, PWK38, open exhaust, UNI filter, 14/52 chain drive
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Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske
Reply #6 - 09/30/22 at 11:52:32
 
Don't order a cylinder base gasket until you determine correct thickness required to achieve .035" - .045" quench clearance.  You can get the base gasket in various thicknesses from Copper Gaskets Unlimited in Phoenix, AZ.

Save your old head gasket so you can use it for setup and clearance checks.

Get some modeling clay so you can check valve-to-piston clearance.

If you don't have precision measuring instruments, get at least a dial caliper that is accurate to within .001".

The flat-top piston is unforgiving.  Don't ignore the clearance checks.  Do it right and you will be justly rewarded.  Cut corners and an irresistible force will meet an immovable object.

Plan on doing several mockup assemblies of the engine to check all your clearances.  That's where the old head gasket comes in handy.  Once you are sure all the clearances are correct, you can do the final assembly with a new head gasket and the correct thickness cylinder base gasket.

Don't use silicone sealant on the copper washers under your head nuts.  It will prevent you from achieving sufficient stud stress.  Use new copper washers.  Lubricate the threads with clean oil.  Lubricate the copper washers with clean oil, or apply teflon thread sealant to both sides of each washer.  Permatex 59214 or Loctite 592.  This post tells the story.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1576269113/12#12

Don't ignore your ring gap.  It must be adequate to ensure that the ends don't butt when it gets hot.  Insufficient gap will definitely wreck your motor.  I suggest at least .020" gap for the top ring, and .022 gap for the second ring.  Don't skimp on the gap.

Be careful with piston orientation.  As I recall, there's no arrow on the top of the flat-top to show which way is forward.  
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Yazman
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Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske
Reply #7 - 09/30/22 at 13:30:21
 
I'm starting to feel scared and over my head already.

Do you know the part number or size is the copper washers?

How do I know which way the piston should face?

Do I just use a flat file or Dremel to adjust ring gap?

Stone hone or dingle ball? What size?

So basically, I put this whole thing together, crank it over manually a few times, and name sure clearances are good? Then I install them permanently once they are?
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2011 RYCA - 94mm flat top Wiseco, stage 3 cam, PWK38, open exhaust, UNI filter, 14/52 chain drive
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Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske
Reply #8 - 09/30/22 at 13:33:50
 
My flat top piston is pretty clearly marked.
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20220930_1333001.jpg

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske
Reply #9 - 09/30/22 at 17:08:01
 
Cool Sneezy, thanks for the pic.  Looks like it's been improved a bit.  Are the valve reliefs a bit bigger too?

Yazman, here is some reading material.  While you are waiting for your parts to arrive, you can prepare by reading these engine build posts.  There will be minor differences, but you should be able to glean enough information to get you started.  The process will be similar.  You have to pick out the nuggets of info that are specific to your build.  We'll help you.

Sealant Application

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1525551307


Tight Quench

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1567201633


Meltdown due to ring gap

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1581222575


97mm build, six parts

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1600759429


Removing head, engine in frame

[url]SuzukiSavage.com - Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Frame[/url]


97mm Flat-Top Installation

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1613022271/0


Beefing up the clutch

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1615547049


Big bore flat-top

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1633054879


If you take your time, and post your progress, and ask questions as you go through the build, and include lots of pics, I'm pretty sure you can achieve success.  Just be patient.  Don't rush it.  Ask questions and follow the advice you get.  If you're not sure, just ask and wait for help.
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Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske
Reply #10 - 09/30/22 at 18:17:37
 
DBM - yes, the valve clearances were enlarged by design revision before I purchased mine.
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Yazman
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Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske
Reply #11 - 10/01/22 at 05:02:17
 
Thanks DBM! I'm gonna study these carefully.
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Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske
Reply #12 - 10/01/22 at 08:12:38
 
Managing your parts during disassembly is so important. Mark things, like that blasted oil pump drive gear, it Can go in bakkerds. All too easily. Cardboard with parts outlines and a slice through that holds each bolt so you know you Have all the bolts and where each one goes. For the headcover you can put the one that goes upside down in just like that. Maybe a piece of tape on the center one that has to be in the headcover before you set it in place..
The clutch cover bolts, same thing. As parts come out, set them up in order.
Clutter is not your friend. Start in a clean work area. No bits and pieces that don't belong in your project. You don't Want to find a little bolt later and wonder where it goes.

I knew a guy in the air force, we weren't buds,but he was asking around if anyone would help him rebuild his AMC something or other. I said I would help, couple other guys wanted in. Nobody knew Beans about it. All I did was parts management. As they took it apart, I cleaned, inspected and positioned for assembly. Lots of stabbed cardboard.

I know, you're all Dying to hear how it worked out. It got rings,but I'm not remembering anyone knowing the bores needed hit with a cross hatch pattern. I don't think we did that. We didn't have the tools for valve springs, so they got eyeballed and called good.
It ran . We decided that not only did it still run, it ran EXACTLY the same as before we spent our weekend on it.

It's good that your heart is in your throat. That is a lot better than being overconfident.

In your mind, instead of the vision being
Engine disassembled now change parts and go back together
Set short term goals,, removing a few things, clean inspect, position for reassembly.
If you're figuring out I'm harping on being organized, I am.
It's hard enough without creating puzzles to figure out.

Good luck, man. We will be here, rooting for ya!
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Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske
Reply #13 - 10/12/22 at 08:38:04
 
Thanks for all the tips fellers! I've been studying DBMs resources and the Clymer manual like I'm taking the bar exam. I have a few more questions for y'all:

1) I bought 3% moly palladium grease (see pic). Is this what I need to smear on the cam lobes?

2) Can I remove the engine without removing the front pulley?

3) Snug the head bolts by feel but torque the cylinder bolts to spec? What's the consensus?

4) Do I really need 1500 miles of break-in like the Clymer manual says? I wanna do this right, and I want it to last.

5) I can adjust ring end gap by sanding the end with sandpaper if needed?

Thanks all!
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2011 RYCA - 94mm flat top Wiseco, stage 3 cam, PWK38, open exhaust, UNI filter, 14/52 chain drive
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Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske
Reply #14 - 10/12/22 at 09:22:33
 
I would go with some assembly lube for your cam lobes.  It is designed specifically for that task.
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Every twenty minute job is a stripped thread away from being a three day ordeal.

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