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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaskets? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1664548949 Message started by Yazman on 09/30/22 at 07:42:29 |
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Title: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaskets? Post by Yazman on 09/30/22 at 07:42:29 Yo fellow savages. I just sent payment for: 94mm flat top Wiseco piston Lancer stage 3 cam JFG Racing PWK38 VersiPlug I have two questions: 1) What else do I need as far as gaskets/washers/o-rings? I've read all the threads I could, but I can't find a clear consensus. Ones I know I'll need: cylinder base gasket, head gasket, Suzukibond for valve cover and clutch side cover Ones I'm not sure if I'll need: cylinder to head o-ring, valve adjustment cover o-rings, head cover screw sealing washers, cylinder stud copper washers, exhaust gasket. More importantly, I can't even find half these on the microfiche. 2) Anything else I need, or should watch out for? I know I'll have to modify my stock throttle cable at both ends to fit the PWK38, I'm gonna order extra cylinder head bolts for when I snap one, I have a Verslavey cam chain adjuster to put on, and I have a HoboFreight torque wrench. I also have molylube for the lobes and a feeler gauge for ring gap and valve clearance. I think I need a dingleball hone? What size? Piston break up in essentially just keeping up varying RPMs? I'm reading the service manual and the relevant threads like I'm studying to get into Harvard. Despite this, I'll still likely screw something up! |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/30/22 at 07:59:33 Inspect your orings. Up top the pressure is nothing. If your fingertip says the rubber is standing proud and the mating surfaces are clean and smooth, it's good. Just feel for the rubber being knocked low somehow. I never replaced that stuff and it never leaked. I don't remember what you said about how much you have handled the High Quality Chineseum bolts. But putting the head cover on it's a lot better to very carefully run the torque pattern four or five times than trying to clamp it down in two. I never used a torque wrench up there. Never had a leak. Or stripped threads. Quarter inch, short ratchet,thumb on the ratchet head,use fingers to pull the ratchet and Feel the bolts as they achieve their clamping force. If you come around and hit a bolt that doesn't turn as far as the last one before you feel it coming tight, don't get frisky. Go on to the next one and come back to it after everything around it is clamped. Test it easy.. It's just a bad place to mess up. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 09/30/22 at 08:02:36 5F4046415C5B6A5A6A52404C07350 wrote:
Yeah, my last engine (Rebel 250) I crushed a cam cover and snapped off 2 head bolts before I hit torque spec. Ended up getting a new engine. So you don't torque any of the bolts with a torque wrench? Not even the head/cylinder bolts? |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by verslagen1 on 09/30/22 at 10:15:02 0F372C3B3738560 wrote:
I would use a clutch cover gasket Quote:
Yes to the cylinder head/valve cover o-ring, look for it in the cylinder head page. You might get these just to be sure you don't have a problem, but I've only had an issue with sealing washer once, but they're cheap. Used ones make great lock washers too. Quote:
Some oil on the bolts will keep them from corroding, but note that lubricated threads need less torque to tighten down. which is probably some people torque them off. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/30/22 at 11:09:28 0E362D3A3639570 wrote:
Yeah, my last engine (Rebel 250) I crushed a cam cover and snapped off 2 head bolts before I hit torque spec. Ended up getting a new engine. So you don't torque any of the bolts with a torque wrench? Not even the head/cylinder bolts? [/quote] I don't see how to get a torque wrench on the head Cover. I've never had the head off,but I would do that by the book. Those are real bolts. The little head cover bolts are counterfeit metal. I'm not sure I would rerun the oem head bolts. I might want new quality bolts. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 09/30/22 at 11:42:52 Those tall bolts that go from the crankcase, through the cylinder and into the head, I'm leaving those bolts in if I can, just loosening the nut on top. Maybe I'll torque those, but snug the rest. I just bought an OEM gasket "kit." I'm assuming it has all the goodies I need. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by DragBikeMike on 09/30/22 at 11:52:32 Don't order a cylinder base gasket until you determine correct thickness required to achieve .035" - .045" quench clearance. You can get the base gasket in various thicknesses from Copper Gaskets Unlimited in Phoenix, AZ. Save your old head gasket so you can use it for setup and clearance checks. Get some modeling clay so you can check valve-to-piston clearance. If you don't have precision measuring instruments, get at least a dial caliper that is accurate to within .001". The flat-top piston is unforgiving. Don't ignore the clearance checks. Do it right and you will be justly rewarded. Cut corners and an irresistible force will meet an immovable object. Plan on doing several mockup assemblies of the engine to check all your clearances. That's where the old head gasket comes in handy. Once you are sure all the clearances are correct, you can do the final assembly with a new head gasket and the correct thickness cylinder base gasket. Don't use silicone sealant on the copper washers under your head nuts. It will prevent you from achieving sufficient stud stress. Use new copper washers. Lubricate the threads with clean oil. Lubricate the copper washers with clean oil, or apply teflon thread sealant to both sides of each washer. Permatex 59214 or Loctite 592. This post tells the story. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1576269113/12#12 Don't ignore your ring gap. It must be adequate to ensure that the ends don't butt when it gets hot. Insufficient gap will definitely wreck your motor. I suggest at least .020" gap for the top ring, and .022 gap for the second ring. Don't skimp on the gap. Be careful with piston orientation. As I recall, there's no arrow on the top of the flat-top to show which way is forward. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 09/30/22 at 13:30:21 I'm starting to feel scared and over my head already. Do you know the part number or size is the copper washers? How do I know which way the piston should face? Do I just use a flat file or Dremel to adjust ring gap? Stone hone or dingle ball? What size? So basically, I put this whole thing together, crank it over manually a few times, and name sure clearances are good? Then I install them permanently once they are? |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by TheSneeze on 09/30/22 at 13:33:50 My flat top piston is pretty clearly marked. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by DragBikeMike on 09/30/22 at 17:08:01 Cool Sneezy, thanks for the pic. Looks like it's been improved a bit. Are the valve reliefs a bit bigger too? Yazman, here is some reading material. While you are waiting for your parts to arrive, you can prepare by reading these engine build posts. There will be minor differences, but you should be able to glean enough information to get you started. The process will be similar. You have to pick out the nuggets of info that are specific to your build. We'll help you. Sealant Application http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1525551307 Tight Quench http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1567201633 Meltdown due to ring gap http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1581222575 97mm build, six parts http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1600759429 Removing head, engine in frame SuzukiSavage.com - Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Frame 97mm Flat-Top Installation http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1613022271/0 Beefing up the clutch http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1615547049 Big bore flat-top http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1633054879 If you take your time, and post your progress, and ask questions as you go through the build, and include lots of pics, I'm pretty sure you can achieve success. Just be patient. Don't rush it. Ask questions and follow the advice you get. If you're not sure, just ask and wait for help. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by TheSneeze on 09/30/22 at 18:17:37 DBM - yes, the valve clearances were enlarged by design revision before I purchased mine. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/01/22 at 05:02:17 Thanks DBM! I'm gonna study these carefully. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/01/22 at 08:12:38 Managing your parts during disassembly is so important. Mark things, like that blasted oil pump drive gear, it Can go in bakkerds. All too easily. Cardboard with parts outlines and a slice through that holds each bolt so you know you Have all the bolts and where each one goes. For the headcover you can put the one that goes upside down in just like that. Maybe a piece of tape on the center one that has to be in the headcover before you set it in place.. The clutch cover bolts, same thing. As parts come out, set them up in order. Clutter is not your friend. Start in a clean work area. No bits and pieces that don't belong in your project. You don't Want to find a little bolt later and wonder where it goes. I knew a guy in the air force, we weren't buds,but he was asking around if anyone would help him rebuild his AMC something or other. I said I would help, couple other guys wanted in. Nobody knew Beans about it. All I did was parts management. As they took it apart, I cleaned, inspected and positioned for assembly. Lots of stabbed cardboard. I know, you're all Dying to hear how it worked out. It got rings,but I'm not remembering anyone knowing the bores needed hit with a cross hatch pattern. I don't think we did that. We didn't have the tools for valve springs, so they got eyeballed and called good. It ran . We decided that not only did it still run, it ran EXACTLY the same as before we spent our weekend on it. It's good that your heart is in your throat. That is a lot better than being overconfident. In your mind, instead of the vision being Engine disassembled now change parts and go back together Set short term goals,, removing a few things, clean inspect, position for reassembly. If you're figuring out I'm harping on being organized, I am. It's hard enough without creating puzzles to figure out. Good luck, man. We will be here, rooting for ya! |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/12/22 at 08:38:04 Thanks for all the tips fellers! I've been studying DBMs resources and the Clymer manual like I'm taking the bar exam. I have a few more questions for y'all: 1) I bought 3% moly palladium grease (see pic). Is this what I need to smear on the cam lobes? 2) Can I remove the engine without removing the front pulley? 3) Snug the head bolts by feel but torque the cylinder bolts to spec? What's the consensus? 4) Do I really need 1500 miles of break-in like the Clymer manual says? I wanna do this right, and I want it to last. 5) I can adjust ring end gap by sanding the end with sandpaper if needed? Thanks all! |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by TheSneeze on 10/12/22 at 09:22:33 I would go with some assembly lube for your cam lobes. It is designed specifically for that task. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/12/22 at 09:29:44 Head cover, go slow, use what you feel. We recently saw someone who messed one up. Having a Target in your mind and a torque wrench, you Want to get it to that torque. The bolts are crap and going into aluminum. If you do find a leak, it's Not the end of the world. Wrecking threads is a lot more of a hassle. The right sealant, the correct application of it, that stuff matters. There are places that look like you are supposed to apply the goo,but study the mating surfaces. I don't remember exactly what areas are involved, I just remember there are a couple of places that are sitting there Looking like you are supposed to apply the sealant,but the head cover doesn't have a mating surface. Thin and even is the thing. The head cover sitting down on the head determines the clearance on the cam. If you stack goo and the cover is five thousandths higher than it could be, you get some slop in the cam bearing area. The thicker the application, the sloppier it is. The stuff to use doesn't actually cure. https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Hondabond-08717-1194-Semi-drying-Liquid/dp/B0785J95RX Suzuki has one, I'm not finding it right now. So, it's Not hard,but it's kinda stiff. You, being human, most likely won't get it applied evenly, as much as you try. By slowly applying the clamping force, running the torque pattern as many times as it takes to just let the head cover pull down flat,it will press the goo thin and even. Not the place to try to get it done quickly. I don't remember if it took me five passes or not, but I'm sure three never happened. Never messed up the threads. Never had a leak. Here is where the goal of setting the head cover on can bite ya! Don't set it up there without the bolt in it. The one you couldn't get out until the head cover was in your hands. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by DragBikeMike on 10/12/22 at 11:22:23 As I recall, you ordered a Stage 3 cam from Lancer. That's a Web cam. It should have come with a tube of assembly lube. Use that. The cam should also be coated with a black dry lubricant. Don't remove the dry lube. Don't try and wash the black stuff off with solvent. The engine can be removed with the pulley still on as long as you can get the belt off the pulley. You can do the top end without removing the engine from the frame, but it will require removal of the cylinder studs. Based on my perception of your level of experience, I suggest you use a torque wrench for your "head cover bolts" and your "cylinder head nuts". There is some guidance on adjusting ring end gap in the posts I previously provide. The top ring has a plasma coating. You don't wanna drag the ring back & forth on the abrasive as it tends to chip off the plasma coating. You want to push the ring in a direction that tends to protect the plasma coating (plasma coating on the leading edge). You might wanna google "grinding ring end gap" or "adjusting piston ring end gap" and read up a bit. Find some YouTube vids. Study up. Do you have a ring compressor? Do you have a piston support? |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/12/22 at 12:02:13 Based on my perception of your level of experience, I suggest you use a torque wrench for your "head cover bolts" Based on DBMs experience I concede.. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/12/22 at 12:26:01 I've worked on engines on and off for the last 20 years. I even went to auto mechanic vocational school for two years many moons ago. I installed a big bore kit 19 years ago, and it blew up (redlining with no load). I tried to install a big bore kit a few months ago, got the wiper ring stuck sideways on the cylinder, destroyed my engine, and broke several head bolts using torque specs. I seem to have really bad luck with rebuilds. I'm a decent wrench, but head work is not my forte. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/12/22 at 12:49:26 I knew a psychiatrist like that |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by TheSneeze on 10/12/22 at 13:49:56 There is a thousand ways to get it wrong, and only one way to get it right. Engine building needs to be done with ample amounts of patience, and research. When a task requires a special tool, be certain of the reason behind it. But this is all vitriol since you have the right experience. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/12/22 at 16:13:49 Thanks for your encouragement fellas! I got the engine out this evening, and I'm hoping to get the cylinder off by tonight. TheSneeze, you're definitely right--9 times out of 10 I botch things because I am impatient and rush. I keep telling myself to slow down with this project. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by LANCER on 10/13/22 at 04:40:42 Pick a work time when you’re not rushed, take a little wine with you if you partake, some soothing music perhaps, and breathe along the way. You are in no hurry. It’s a small simple engine, take your time, read the step by step instructions in the manual before putting your hands to it. You will avoid mistakes and will have a slower pace. There is a reason pilots ALWAYS use checklists...it helps avoid mistakes that could kill you. Use the book-read-then do. During part of an engine assembly a couple of weeks ago, while reading a portion I came across a bit of useful information I had not remembered ever seeing before. We can always learn new things as long as we are still vertical. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/13/22 at 09:24:00 Thanks LANCER for the vote of confidence! I got it stripped down to the crankcase yesterday. Hardest part was loosening that darn timing inspection cover >:( . I bent Nickel into a pretzel, broke a flat file, ground down several giant washers and bent them all. Finally I made a flat, square piece from steel with my grinder and it did the trick. Cover is all scratched though. The cylinder is being honed and cleaned at the shop today. Saturday my parts arrive. I'll spend the next couple days cleaning up the engine and frame while I have the chance. I'm gonna port the exhaust too; there's like a giant mountain of metal in the way of the flow. What were they thinking? Lol |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Fast 650 on 10/13/22 at 10:03:00 102833242827490 wrote:
Just don't try grinding away on that flat wall near the exit. Your valve springs are behind that and that wall is thin. This thread may be of help. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1554362214/0 |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by TheSneeze on 10/13/22 at 10:28:05 Everything needs to match. Since you are going with a bigger carb, and plan to port the exhaust, you should also port the intake. DBM has posted some great information in very good detail on what he did. I followed a lot of what he did, and took the measurements and pictures to the shop I used for my head work. If you do one end, better plan on doing the other. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Fast 650 on 10/13/22 at 11:27:06 A lot depends on his skill level and available tools though. It is easier to really screw up the flow of the intake port than the exhaust port if he is inexperienced. The exhaust side is something that practically anyone can do with minimal tools and get good results. That epoxy fill on the intake isn't something that I would recommend trying until after he has some experience at porting. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/13/22 at 11:44:19 Yeah, after re-reading DBMs porting stuff, I might just clean up the castings and maybe polish the exhaust side. I think I'd probably screw up more extensive work, and it seems that I'd need a bigger header to get any benefit. Can I use SAE30 that's used for 4-cycle snowblowers, mowers, etc as break in oil? |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/14/22 at 05:20:19 Quick question: I very gently and carefully used a razor blade to scrape away old head gasket, but I can see what look like scratches now. Is it ok? Or do I have to machine it? How aggressive can you be on the mating surface? |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/14/22 at 06:30:47 I'm anxious to see the answers. It's a question I have not had, but I haven't had to be in the motor that far. I have an idea about what I would do, but I want to see what the real mechanics say. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by TheSneeze on 10/14/22 at 08:27:08 I quit using metal tools (razor blades, spatulas, putty knives, etc) on gasket surfaces a long time ago. I don't want any introduced marring or scratching on these types of surfaces. Harbor Freight sells a set of hard plastic chisels that work beautifully on removing stubborn gaskets. Sometimes it helps using some chemicals to soften up the really difficult ones. The plastic tools never damage the gasket surfaces, even the aluminum ones. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by TheSneeze on 10/14/22 at 08:29:28 Another method is to use a fine scotchbrite wheel on a drill motor. It won't remove metal very easily and can really make quick work of the more stubborn gaskets. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/15/22 at 07:28:48 Stupid Horrible Freight torque wrench >:( >:( >:( >:( And I wondered why I snapped all the head bolts in my old engine. The stupid thing never clicks at any torque! I only found this out after I way over torqued my head bolts the savage. I bought a new torque wrench. A beam style. However, I know that I torqued them to way way over 25 ft lb. I think I'm just going to let it ride. EDIT: thanks TheSneeze for the tip. I used a plastic trim tool to scrape my gaskets, and it worked great! |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/15/22 at 12:54:49 Anyone know what this is? I'm about to put the head cover back on, and all of a sudden I see this piece laying on the floor. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/15/22 at 13:00:13 I'm not sure but if I'm guessing I would say it is the clutch throw out rod. But I did not know they were that long. I'm sure someone who actually knows will be along soon. If you have the clutch cover on, you can pull the clutch lever and if it has no resistance, you might have a clue. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by verslagen1 on 10/15/22 at 13:52:30 6A757374696E5F6F5F67757932000 wrote:
ding ding ding... I think we have a winner. should be 46mm long give or take a 1mm. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/15/22 at 14:01:12 Man you guys are life savers! Fit right inside that hole in the middle of the clutch pack. I really appreciate it fellas |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/15/22 at 15:50:17 You can mail me my Gold star. I sent mine to Dave. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/17/22 at 18:00:38 Gold stars for everyone JOG! I got it running. Took it on a 3-mile ride in 38 degree almost freezing rain. I was just in 1st & 2nd revving it up to a 1/3 and back down. It sounds kinda loud and ticky, and there's a noticable "CHU CHU CHU" sounds that starts around 2nd and stops when I idle. It's most noticable over 30mph. Almost like I imagine the belt would make if it's hitting a guard? Or an exhaust leak? I don't know. I'm just glad it didn't blow up (yet). Feels the same as before, but it's hard to tell at under 4k RPMs. Feels like almost slightly less power, but it could be I need to recheck my valve clearance and/or tuning. Or maybe the PO already had a cam and piston kit it in lol. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/19/22 at 04:58:40 I used SAE30: 1.5l Briggs and Stratton stuff, and 0.5l SAE30 cheap O'Reilly's stuff. Just read the back of the O'Reilly's oil and it has friction modifiers :'( Only ran 3 miles, but damage may already be done to clutch. Two valves were dead on (0.005in exhaust, 0.004in intake), and two were only one-thousandth off. I adjusted the throttle cable; maybe that'll help with the "feel"/response. Still hoping when the smoke clears, I'll notice a performance increase. I can't see how I wouldn't. Maybe it just needs more tuning. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by verslagen1 on 10/19/22 at 07:49:02 I think 30wt is too thin and would stick to 40wt. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/19/22 at 19:30:03 352631302F2224262D72430 wrote:
I drained the 30W and put in T4 15w40. Seems to run fine. It doesn't "feel" much quicker or torqueier than before, but maybe after break-in it will? |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by verslagen1 on 10/19/22 at 20:07:54 4B73687F737C120 wrote:
I once scared OldFeller on a group ride. He has a habit of leading the group and pulling away far enough that he can pull off and hide from us till we pass, then he'd blow by us giggling all the way. I was watching for this to happen and when he pulled up next to me I let the beast loose... he didn't pass me until later. So can it be done? yes it can. Will it feel like a wild untamed beast? No, but this donkey is ready to make some mules. Stock the bike makes 33 hp, with good tune you'll get it up to 40+ It's not going to feel like 195 no matter what you do, sep maybe loose a 100 lbs. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/20/22 at 08:17:13 verslagen1, thanks for the perspective; I think you're right. The "butt dyno," I imagine, might only detect a significant change (e.g., 20% increase in power), but will likely not register the 9.4% increase from the cam and piston (per DBM's data. Below is a pic of a quickly made graph showing DBM's modifications in order, and the decrease in time (between a given gear and RPM) associated with each mod. I've edited out the head port and made some other changes to his data to closer replicate my bike's mods. The long and short of it, is that going from stock to a pod filter, more open exhaust, and PWK38 gets you about a 50.2% increase in acceleration time (as measured by the sum of the 2nd, 3rd, 5th gear pulls between the various RPMs). Going from that to a cam and 94mm hi comp piston only gets you a 9.4% further increase in acceleration time. In other words, cam and hi comp piston get you about a fifth of the performance increase that pod filter, exhaust, and bigger carb do. It's like an asymptotic exponential function (i.e. "diminishing returns"). Using DBM's dyno numbers, and doing more math, I estimate that I gained 0.6hp and 0.6tq (assuming that acceleration time and hp/tq are closely correlated). It makes sense I wouldn't register half a HP. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/21/22 at 14:34:29 Much better after rejet! It was good everywhere except WOT (I followed the break-in directions to the "T," and gave it a lengthy 15 miles before beating on it like it owed me money). I swapped the 170 & 50 for a 155 & 42. Still a little stumbling at WOT, so I'll probably go down to 140 on the main. I'm not sure why I didn't follow DBMs advice in the first place lol. I hope 140 isn't too lean though. I don't wanna blow this thing up! |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/21/22 at 17:53:30 40 & 140 seems pretty good. No WOT bogging, but popping on deceleration from 1/4-0 throttle. Man, this thing moves! Happy to finally get it dialed in. Thanks everyone for your help! Maybe I should go back to 42 pilot? Doesn't popping mean lean? |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by DragBikeMike on 10/21/22 at 19:42:54 Please confirm that I have your setup correct. You have a 94mm Wiseco Flat-Top piston, Lancer's Stage III cam, a PWK 38 carb, a pod air filter, a stock header pipe, and some sort of Ryca muffler. Your head is not ported. Do I have your setup correct? Did I miss anything? Can you please post some pictures of your carb and air filter installation. I need to see how your airfilter is installed. Can you please post some pictures of your exhaust system. I need to see how your muffler connects to your header, and what size baffle/outlet you have. Also would be helpful if you had any manufacturer's data on the muffler. Be careful with the #140 main jet. It could be a bit on the lean side for the setup you are running. A #140 is good for stock compression, but with the higher compression piston you probably should be running a #142 or #145. To alleviate your "popping", set your idle speed at 1300 to 1400 rpm. The higher idle speed is also better for your cam. Where is the e-clip positioned in your slide needle? There are five grooves in the needle. Placing the e-clip in the top groove results in the leanest mid-range mixture. Placing the e-clip in the bottom groove results in the richest mid-range mixture. To help with the popping, try moving the e-clip to the next lower groove (one-groove richer). Try the richer setting. If raising the needle one-groove is not to your liking, simply put it back where it was. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/22/22 at 05:39:39 53555A26242327170 wrote:
DBM, you are a national treasure. Thanks for your help! Yes, I have a RYCA muffler, K&N pod filter (pictured), Lancer 94mm flattop piston, Lancer stage 3 cam, stock header, not ported, PWK38 from JFG, and I'm running 92/93 octane. I'm about 150lbs and the bike has the RYCA Cafe racer kit I'm dumb, and just realized how to remove the needle. The clip is in the middle groove (3 of 5). I have more jets coming tomorrow. My muffler opening at the very back is 1 3/4". It's hard to tell, but I think the inside diameter is roughly the same (it's recessed in there). I'll try to find more info on it. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/22/22 at 05:42:01 Here's a pic of my muffler (I can't figure out how to do multiple pics in one post). |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/22/22 at 05:43:14 Inside of the carb: |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by DragBikeMike on 10/22/22 at 10:50:43 Your air filter is waaaaaaaaaay too small. It probably flows less than a stock flat panel filter. There is almost no surface area. You are smothering your engine. Post a picture of the carb and filter installed on the engine so we can see if there is a simple way to install a better filter. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by DragBikeMike on 10/22/22 at 10:56:33 Your main jet is a Mikuni main jet, or a knock-off of a Mikuni main jet. If that round jet is a #140 Mikuni Large Round main jet, it should have a .055" orifice, which is equivalent in size to a #142 PWK main jet. Although it might work, I suggest you use Keihin PWK jets or a known good equivalent. This main jet is round. It's also short which limits the available fuel in the float bowl. It's the wrong jet for this carb. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by DragBikeMike on 10/22/22 at 11:06:11 PWK jets look like this. You can get genuine Keihin jets from Jets-R-Us. They also carry a quality line of generic main jets for the PWK. I use the generics; they work perfect and cost half as much. Use the correct jets. No one can help you if you use parts that aren't intended for the application and then don't tell us. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by DragBikeMike on 10/22/22 at 11:10:52 I see your muffler has removeable internals (at least it looks like you can remove the internals). Open it up and pull out the baffle. Take some pics and post. We need to be able to see if you have a free-flowing muffler. Remove the screw/s that hold the end cap on and pull the guts out. Post pics. Let's see what ya got in there. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by DragBikeMike on 10/22/22 at 11:14:17 Dave makes his own baffles for a similar muffler and it works great. If you wanna make power, you gotta get the air in and the spent gas out. There's no way around it. Plug it up on either end and the results will be the same, no power. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/22/22 at 11:15:07 My 170 & 155 jet were the right size. This 140 is the only small one over used. I'll post pics ASAP. Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/22/22 at 11:21:08 If the rubber on the carburetor covers passages it's Not gonna run good. The piston going down on the intake stroke is Trying to pull 652 cc of air through the filter. That would be okay on a small lawnmower. Imagine 650 cc of air being Sucked through that filter 1,800 times in a minute. That would be 3,600 rpm. The math just isn't coming to me, is thirty times a second? Feels wrong,, but it's working way too hard for a breath. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/22/22 at 11:54:32 You guys make a good point--I definitely didn't think about the air flow before. That tiny little filter barely fits with the RYCA modifications. It buts right up against the battery box. I'll take pics when I get home later. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by TheSneeze on 10/22/22 at 12:59:51 You may be able to put together a filter pipe to the carb that either has an "S" bend or a 45 degree bend to point the filter out the side of the bike. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/22/22 at 15:38:54 4D5277707A737F6C751E0 wrote:
Cool. I'm looking an Amazon for a bigger filter. Destroyed the inside and outside of my muffler getting this baffle out [ch128557] |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/23/22 at 19:24:43 #42 #145 and clip in 3rd position is a winner! It feels and sounds great from idle to WOT. The bike runs like a scaled dog now, and it feels like a rocket! A very heartfelt thank you to everyone for your help. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by TheSneeze on 10/23/22 at 21:27:57 Great looking bike, Yazman! |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by DragBikeMike on 10/24/22 at 20:35:05 Glad you got it sorted out. It looks slick. Sorry you had so much trouble with your baffle tube. I wanted to see how restrictive it is. Looks to me like pretty close to zero restriction. How did you salvage it? What did you end up doin with your air filter? As I recall, you had mentioned that you couldn't really feel much improvement in power. Now that you have it dialed in a bit. What is your assessment of the power? Is it a noticeable increase? How are the vibration levels? How's the mechanical noise? Can your clutch hold the power in top gear? Congrats, Mike |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 10/25/22 at 05:54:34 1A1C136F6D6A6E5E0 wrote:
Thanks! I couldn't have done this without your help DBM. I hammered the baffle and muffler back into shape. It looks fine, unless you're close to it. I'm cheap, so it'll have to do lol. I'm still working on finding an air filter. The trouble I'm having is that the RYCA battery box is literally like 2 inches from the carb throat. I might have to modify the battery box, which means I'd need one of those small, lithium batteries. I take back an the bad things I said about the cam and piston--it feels more like my old CBR600F3 crotch rocket than a cruiser. I'm doing 0-60 between 4 & 5 seconds (using the admittedly inaccurate "one-Mississippi" method). Before, I was around 6-7 seconds using the same method. It definitely feels like a "thumper" now--not as smooth vibration-wise, but still acceptable and well-mannered enough for my liking. It doesn't rattle my fillings out and make my hands numb like my 87' Rebel 250 did. Rode for almost an hour straight yesterday, and it was very comfortable (even in the "sport" position). It's certainly a bit louder mechanical-wise (clickety clackety, sewing machine noises from engine). The noises are scary, as I assume it means I did something wrong and/or something is about to explode, but it seems ok so far. The clutch feels even better than before! Probably because I adjusted the lever, but still. It shifts smooth and doesn't slip or grab. If anyone is on the fence about these mods, GO FOR IT!* *provided you have decent mechanical experience, go slowly, keep track of everything meticulously, pay close attention, triple check your work, read all available threads, read the Clymer manual, and most importantly, read through DragBikeMike's library! You guys rock. This community is great, and a treasure-trove of information and knowledge. I appreciate you all. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by LANCER on 10/25/22 at 06:59:22 YAHOO ! |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 11/05/22 at 13:37:42 Follow-up: I managed to fit a foam UNI filter on the carb. Hopefully this will help anyone else who is trying to upgrade from the small pancake filter. 4" long, 63mm inside diameter, slight angle. $20 from Amazon |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/06/22 at 03:22:02 Any improvement? |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by LANCER on 11/06/22 at 03:38:49 You can remove the outer red foam from the Uni if you want, the carb is fairly protected right behind the engine and doesn’t pick up as much dirt. It’s a good filter and It’s not as crowded that way. |
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Title: Re: Pullin trigger-94mm hicomp stage 3 PWK38-gaske Post by Yazman on 11/06/22 at 08:23:18 Lancer, thanks for the tip! I took the red foam off, and it definitely gives it more space. It actually fits perfect now. JOG, I'm still waiting for my new chain to come in, but I should be able to test it Wednesday or thursday. It starts up and sounds good though! I'm curious how it'll perform with at least twice as much air flow. I went with a JT 14t front and 52t rear sprocket and JT x-chain with solid master link. It'll have a 3.71 gear ratio! Short, torquey, and fast acceleration! I don't go over 60mph, so why not? |
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