Savage_Rob wrote on 07/11/12 at 08:53:13:



Okay, you got me there.  For some wretched groups of folks, if they had no wheat-based food, they'd have no food at all.  I'd like to rephrase that one.

Instead of "Yes, some folks can tolerate it better than others, but EVERYONE is healthier without it," I should have said, "Yes, some folks can tolerate it better than others, but EVERYONE that has access to healthier alternatives like meat or fish or fowl or veggies or fruit, etc., is healthier without wheat or any other grains."

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Just think how much longer they would have lived, and how more more they would have contributed had they not been wheaters.

It has become a source of entertainment now,.... how you try to convince me that the massive and definite improvement great numbers of people this very day are realizing from escaping the harm done to them by wheat, is not happening because there are lots of wheaters that are still alive.  

Your position is still the same: other people did well when they ate wheat, therefore you will do better if you eat wheat.

There is no logic there.  
-- When you have no proof, saying someone is healthy because he ate wheat is as valid as saying someone could have been more healthy if he didn't eat wheat.  
-- I know several smokers who appear to be really healthy.  They are not healthy because they smoke,... they appear healthy in spite of smoking.  
-- We'll never know how much better Columbus would have done had he not eaten wheat.  
-- We DO know today, though, that people do better when they don't eat wheat,... just like everyone does better when they stop smoking.  

Forgive me, but I am confused by your comment about enjoying a meat-only diet.

I am having some difficulty, though, understanding why your paradigm problem is so deeply entrenched.  My speculation is that you grew up in an environment that emphasized how healthy wheat-eating was, so, at least for now, you just can't get outside those powerful paradigms.  I had the same paradigms.  I was a high-carber until 2003, and a wheater until 2011.  Several decades of firm, but flawed, beliefs.  Somehow I was able to get outside the learnings of my life, and progress on to more accurate information.  Not being a stupid fellow, I can only think you will eventually find out how this all really works and can dispense with the USDA/FDA/mega-agri-lobby propaganda about "healthy whole grains."

Yes, Savage_Rob, things are different in different countries, and things have changed over time as well.

No matter how well a people seems to do as wheaters, they do better if they abstain from wheat/grains, and eat fish/fowl/meat/veggies/fruit/nuts/etc.  The fact that many millions still eat wheat does not prove that it is good, it just shows that human beings can survive well even when having to deal with problems like eating wheat/grain.

These points, while interesting, do not affect the main issue.  No matter how many times someone points out that Robert E. Lee was a famous general and he ate wheat all the time, it doesn't prove that wheat made him famous.  Two separate issues.

No matter how many times I point out that when I stopped with the wheat, all kinds of pretty good things happened pretty quickly, it doesn't seem to alter the thinking of those that are trying to convince me it doesn't work.

Gyrobob wrote on 07/12/12 at 08:07:33:


Gyrobob, you really dissappointed me here...
Julius Caesar was assassinated...
Leonardo died at 67, a VERY old age for his times...
Christopher Columbus was jailed by the Spanish Crown and died in chains...
Marco Polo died in his own bed, of illness after spending years in prison, when Venice lost a war against Genoa for the dominion of the Mediterranean trade routes...
Napoleon died in exile in St.Helena at 52, poisoned by the British...
Gandhi was assassinated at 79, and was a rigorous vegetarian... so lots of wheat there...

So the only one who died of old age, Leonardo at 67 in 1519, was VERY old! By comparison, the average age in 1519 in England was below 40...


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Again, you dissappoint me.
I am NOT trying to convince you that wheat is good... I am simply saying that carbohydrates through wheat, barley, oats or rice are a natural part of the Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
Neanderthal was strictly a carnivore, and he soccumbed to Homo Sapiens who had developed farming.
The American Indians were essentially carnivores, yet they ALL showed a level of civilization which varied from Neolithic to barely Mesopotamian.

The Indians and Chinese did have wheat; see na'an bread, Chinese wheat noodles or wonton (Chinese ravioli) .
I apologize for quoting Japan when I should have said Korea.

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You insist on blaming the FDA for imposing a diet, I do not recall ever mentioning the FDA in my posts, I couldn't care less for an Agency which has ZERO jurisdiction (and credibility) outside the USA.
I say "credibility" because very many medicines sold in the US are BANNED in Europe because they do not meet the safety and health standards of the EU... such as too much mercury in pediatric vaccinations, for example (see: bird flu scare)

Anyway... just google "carbohydrate receptors on tongue" or ask a dietologist or a doctor specialized in sports and nutrition, and you will leanr that the tongue is equipped with special receptors which are there to alert the system that you are eating carbohydrates - regardless of their taste or flavor - and that a certain "digestion - energy storage and release" cycle will go into effect.

I am saying this because last week I was visiting family in Belgium (what wonderful beers !) and while killing time saw a documentary on nutrition.
Well, the test they ran was this: three teams were tested, doing heavy labor, with regular "drinking" intervals:
- one team would drink water,
- one team would drink water with sugar added;
- one team could only rinse their mouth (but not swallow) with water added with a flavorless carbohydrate.

Team Three fared better than Team One. The system had sensed carbohydrates were "coming" even though they were spit out, and released a higher amount of energy to the muscles compared to the team which could only drink pure water.

So, my dear friend, go on with your crusade against wheat. You are being "Symptomatic": I feel well, hence I am healthy.

You should see a dietologist and verify the scientific evidence behind Dr.Davis' statements; I have researched what I could, talked to local dietologists, civilian and military doctors, and asked in Belgium, UK and France, and always got the same answer:
"You may alter the percentage of the three fundamental components (Protein, Fats and Carbohydrates) but you CANNOT eliminate one altogether - you would think you are well but you are actually starving your system".

That said, analyzing another knind of situation, comparing the US to Italy in terms of population we have fewer obese, fewer deaths by heart attack and FAR fewer cases of cardiovascular desease in general.

So wheat can't be to blame if YOU were feeling ill or had whatever ailments.

You remind me of the guy who once claimed "I wake up feeling much more rested than once, and can sleep longer hours..."


As if... sleeping longer hours shouldn't make you feel more rested ?

Your diatribe continues to try to convince me it doesn't work.  
-- In the face of mounting evidence that getting off of wheat generates many many improvements in some chronic maladies for just about everyone, you stick to your outdated paradigm of grains being healthy.
-- Bringing up "evidence" of how common wheat ingestion was throughout history is meaningless.  Humans have survived all kinds of unhealthy and common foods/practices throughout history.
-- Bringing up "evidence" of how common wheat ingestion is today is also meaningless.  Humans are surviving all kinds of unhealthy and common foods/practices today.

Some people take longer to change their minds, especially when doing so invalidates some very strong beliefs they have held to for decades.  That very thing happened to me.  I should have made these changes years ago when I first started reading about it.
 
I wish now I would have known about this when I was a kid.  I'd certainly be a LOT healthier now!

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He was also a vegetarian, border line vegan, very controversial for his time but yes, he did live to be very old by the standards of the day.

Savage_Rob wrote on 07/12/12 at 09:19:43:


Thank you, Savage Rob, and my apologies for not replying any earlier.
Yes, I do live in Italy, but having lived a full 8 years in a mix of AngloSaxon countries, and returning there regularly for work/holiday, may I say I understand the different mentalities when it comes to food.

When you live in a society... in a civilization which is an easy 3000 years old, you don't need "propaganda" to decide what to eat.
Sure, commercials may insist "there's nothing better than McDonald's", and you may disagree, but that isn't going to put you off eating steak&potatoes.
Similarly, we have been eating pasta since Roman times, in the guise of lasagna or similar sizes.

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Yes, we do. We practice what is known as the "short chain", i.e. we emphasize the importance of buying locally grown produce (or nationally grown vs. imported) not because of chauvinism, but because the "short chain" implies fewer miles driven, hence fresher produce AND less pollution due to the big trucks not hauling north to south, east to west etc...

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Sorry, bargaining/haggling you only do at weekly markets, where the vendors change town day after day, and in Hollywood stereotypes, where the "MamaMia" matron haggles for hours over one turnip.

We have shopping centers and malls and multistory superstores where you can buy your Adidas and your Zucchini and everything inbetween.
Incidentally, I believe we are actually more hi-tech than you...
We have GSM mobiles since 1993 and ADSL is nationwide... in fact, you cannot get a plain and simple "dialup" connection anywhere, it's broadband DSL or nothing.
We use only digital broadband TV, there's no "analog TV" any more, and no cable... it's broadband digital or satellite digital, period.

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For starters, forget dairy in the Far East. All they conceive is milk (for babies) and yoghurt. Cheese is UNKNOWN east of the Caucasus.
True, there IS cheese in SE India (had to llok it up  ) but it is really of Persian origin.
So... East of India, I am aware of no cheese. Most certainly my Korean friends were surprised there was cheese beyond "the little squares we put on cheeseburgers"

As for wheat in India, go google "Na'an bread" or "chapati", two styles of bread made with wheat, not rice.

China also makes use of wheat. Let us not be led into the misunderstanding that "in China they eat rice".
China is a continent per se, a landmass the size of Europe, with cultivation along the Yang-Tze, Tibet and Chinese Mongolia which mirror those in Europe.
RICE  is  the  staple carbohydrate in the center/south,
WHEAT is the staple carbohydrate in the north.
Just Wiki "chinese cuisine" (I got the link from the main "China" Wiki page)

Nobody's stirring up anything disastrous here, Savage_Rob, so not to worry  
I myself admit that my belly will swell after a few beers but this does not mean cereals are bad, nor "liquid bread" (the name used by German Monks in order to be allowed to drink beer during Lent)

In closing, you can get your carbohydrates from two sources, cereals and legumes.

Cereals, such as wheat, rice, oats, barley and hops will give seeds which have been milled and/or cooked in various styles, we can't say we haven't experimented, we KNOW which cereal works best prepared in whichever style.

Corn, manioca and tapioca are also cereals, introduced into Europe a mere few centuries ago (if at all) with the exploitation of the Americas.

Legumes we only eat boiled. To my knowledge, nobody makes "bean bread" or "lentil cakes".
True, the Arabs eat falafel, which are small fried patties of crushed chick peas, but the chick pease are boiled first, and in Europe we eat them boiled, so... it's just an extension of a known recipe.

Last come potatoes and yams. I'll not teach anybody how to boil a potato.

And breadfruit is NOT a widely used (nor known) source of carbohydrates, not anymore than banana flour for your morning pancakes...

Eat your food as it was intended to be eaten.
You don't need to capsize the boat just to see the sea floor; just dunk your head underwater.
Similarly, "Nut flour" or "coconut flour" to replace wheat flour is NOT going to make you wheat free, it is going to make you fat, because of all the excess oils you feed yourselves.

Compare the average Mediterranean to the average Samoan...


(no, I do NOT condone smoking... but she IS smoking!   )

Do I read "aggressive" in your reply ?

"You can spew till you are blue in the face "  

I have researched, and provided different scientific sources each and every time... and expressed my ideas and skepticism with the expectation I would have received a reply as calm and polite as my own posts.

"How will you get the lady who tried 28 different diet schemes (yes, 28) (including the mediterranean diet) to lose weight and never was able to lose much and/or keep it off, to go back to being a wheater after she lost 120 pounds and has kept it off for several months so far?"

So, a lady lost 120 lbs. by starving herself of one of the fundamentals, and you claim victory ?   After a few months only ?  
Oh, and BTW the lady was 120lbs overweight and she never saw an endocrinologist who could figure out what was wrong with her metabolism ?

"How will you get the guy whose dog was so stricken with arthritis he was dragging his hings legs as if paralized,.. to put his dog back on wheat now that his dog is not just on all fours, he can, for example, jump up on the couch?"

So, a man was feeding a "born-predator carnivore" wheat, and you expect the animal to be healthy ?
Do I read NUTS ???
I am glad the dog can now jump back onto its own couch, for all the meat my family fed our dog, it could never afford its own couch...

Last, Gyro_Bob, I'm Italian, not American.
We share a Forum because we ride the same bike.
I do not go by USFDA guidelines, and as I stated earlier, nobody this side of the Atlantic really cares much about USFDA-approved pink slime or other masterpieces of US culinary culture.

If only you could get smells, along with pictures and video, you'd understand the difference between Italian bread and sliced styrofoam...