SuzukiSavage.com - Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam chain

Kropatchek

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Why more than 1
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Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam
Reply #60 - 03/05/07 at 08:53:22

Savage_Greg wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:03:

Yes. It really begs an answer too. Like is there a way to prevent it, was something done wrong that caused it, or will this happen over and over?

Funny too 'cause after having the bike for 7 years, this was the first time the subject came up.

It's the design that does not allow for much improvement. Unless a similar sytem as Blue Thumper has designed is installed.

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Never ask your bike to scream before her throat is warm.
'93 Sav in '96 ( yellow) looks

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Savage_Greg Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Don't go around your ass to reach your elbow... Posts: 7844 SW Washington State Gender:	Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Reply #61 - 03/05/07 at 09:49:45 Kropatchek wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:03: It's the design that does not allow for much improvement. Unless a similar sytem as Blue Thumper has designed is installed. Yeah, and I remember my 850 Yamaha too. Sold it with 29K on it and it had an external adjustment that never needed anything done
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KenGLong Senior Member Alliance Member Offline 2002 Savage Posts: 297 Albuquerque, NM Gender:	Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Reply #62 - 03/05/07 at 13:52:00 Well, I took the clutch cover off this afternoon and here's what I found. http://www.thelongtrek.com/savagecamchain/tensioner.htm Did I measure the plunger extension the same as everyone else? Is 22.8mm a lot? Ken
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Savage_Greg

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Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam
Reply #63 - 03/05/07 at 14:00:19

Whoa...that looks to be a little more extended than mine. 22.8 MM? I wonder what's left. I'll have to measure my plunger out in the garage....unfortunately I forgot to measure mine while it was installed.

As well, yours also appears to have the same color coating to the inside of the casing as Justin's...which should be a relief of sorts to him.

This whole topic is just a little bit discouraging....isn't it?

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KenGLong

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Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam
Reply #64 - 03/05/07 at 14:17:31

Savage_Greg wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:03:

Whoa...that looks to be a little more extended than mine. 22.8 MM? I wonder what's left. I'll have to measure my plunger out in the garage....unfortunately I forgot to measure mine while it was installed.

As well, yours also appears to have the same color coating to the inside of the casing as Justin's...which should be a relief of sorts to him.

This whole topic is just a little bit discouraging....isn't it?

Whoops, typo alert! That should be 20.8mm, not 22.8.

Wow, it is a very dark color in there, isn't? No wonder it was so hard to photograph.

I'm relieved that my tensioner is still reusable but I am a bit discouraged to confirm that, at best, my cam chain will need replacement in under 23,000 miles.

Ken

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Reelthing Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Fish or ride that is the question Posts: 5397 Houston,Tx Gender:	Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Reply #65 - 03/05/07 at 15:14:50 I think they'll go more but say the '95 I have is to fine of a running engine to let it go pop - and not unlike the time'n belt replacement on some >$30k autos @75k->100k miles
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Savage_Greg

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Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam
Reply #66 - 03/05/07 at 19:29:54

KenGLong wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:03:

Whoops, typo alert! That should be 20.8mm, not 22.8.

Wow, it is a very dark color in there, isn't? No wonder it was so hard to photograph.

I'm relieved that my tensioner is still reusable but I am a bit discouraged to confirm that, at best, my cam chain will need replacement in under 23,000 miles.

Ken

So then the color on the inside of yours is not from dirty oil?

I guess that Justin doesn't have a problem.

Yours...you also have more miles than I and the tensioner is a little more extended. The wear is kinda linear, I guess.

And mine...

The question: Why are the engines so different looking?

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Max_Morley

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Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam
Reply #67 - 03/05/07 at 19:58:29

Don't know about the engine case treatment, but can tell you that on my 96 at 28 k miles, when I touched the tensioner, it fell apart. On mine the tensioner aluminum housing had worn out of round on the bottom side and is serviced by replacing the whole assembly. I ordered the snap ring as I figured if I didn't it would take a sail around the shop going back on, something about aman named Murphy. I put a new chain and tensioner and crank gear on, seems I forgot it was LH thread and the new air impact I have is not very forgiving in reverse (over 500ft lbs. according to Snap-on). It fractured the gear into 6 pieces. Had the aviation folks verify the condition (via non destructive testing methods) of the primary drive gear as it was on national back order. I'm sure it very seldom wears out, maybe gets a broken tooth when the tensioner comes apart and jams in the gears. I will check mine at 40K miles or so and replace both gears, chain and guide(s) at that time . As someone said, the small (crank) gear may wear faster than the larger camshaft gear. It does happen that way on final drive chains on the Hondas my B-i-L runs for farm bike. We do the drive sprocket and chain the 2nd year and then both sprockets and chain the 3 rd year. Seems to work OK and we've not lost one yet in service.

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Max at Thumper Acres. '96 Savage bagger, '03 Savage w/Cozy sidecar for wifeni.

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justin_o_guy

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Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam
Reply #68 - 03/05/07 at 21:50:29

Okay, I did the inch to millimeter conversion. From the flat of the housing to the shoulder of the tensioner, not the bolt, it is 18.75 mm. The distance between the chain headed Up & the chain coming Down is just a finger width, close to 1/2".I don't want to use the tensioner up needlesly, but I don't want to replace the chain before it has to be done. I already closed the thing up & NO, I didn't measure between pins. I totally forgot. So, the question is, am I in a hurry? Should I get right after it or can I ride it for another few thousand miles? That's IF the wear rate is constant. I have 14,000 miles on it & it's worn to this point. What's the maximum safe measurement on the tensioner?( again, I used a depth gauge on a dila caliper to read to the shoulder from the flat of the tensioner housing.)Any clues, folks?

I am comforted some by the color of the other engine. I had decided it was factory. If it's not, I don't think I ever want to know,, that stuff is on there tight, & it's hard. I hope it's factory, but why would they do that?

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Kropatchek

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Why more than 1
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Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam
Reply #69 - 03/06/07 at 03:25:02

@justin
@ken
@greg

The recommendation I read, you know where is:

1) Replace the chain if the tensioner is out for 18 mm or more
2) Replace the rear guide if it shows wear marks.
3) Replace the tensioner if the hole in the housing is elongated

Getting my new chain and guide in a few days and will take some measurements of different combinations of new and old parts.

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Never ask your bike to scream before her throat is warm.
'93 Sav in '96 ( yellow) looks

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KenGLong

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Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam
Reply #70 - 03/06/07 at 06:27:37

Savage_Greg wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:03:

So then the color on the inside of yours is not from dirty oil? ... The question: Why are the engines so different looking?

I don't think my blackened case is from dirty oil. The color doesn't come off and I've cleaned the inside of a Chevy 350 during a rebuild so I know that old oil film can be cleaned off with a little gasoline and elbow grease. This stuff isn't from dirty oil.

Mine is a '02. I bought it in Sep '05 from a local dealer with about 12,000 on her. She has about 22,000 now.

Don't know. <shrug>

Ken

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam
Reply #71 - 03/06/07 at 08:26:46

justin_o_guy wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:03:

Okay,
I am comforted some by the color of the other engine. I had decided it was factory. If it's not, I don't think I ever want to know,, that stuff is on there tight, & it's hard. I hope it's factory, but why would they do that?

At least we have part of the answer now. Can't imagine why the case is coated. Looks like a spray on under coating Tongue

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allan

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Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam
Reply #72 - 03/06/07 at 11:40:32

could it be that the casings are porous, I work in the truck industry and often gearboxes come in for repair that have a similiar coating on them to stop oil leaking out from poor manufacture, which is why they come into us as its found a way out, seized box or at least very noisey cant understand why just on internal parts as with my thought it can only leak back to sump.

Only a thought not an answer,

allan.

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rokrover

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torkenstein

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Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam
Reply #73 - 03/06/07 at 12:14:51

That black coating looks like classic motor oil sludge to me. Used to be common under valve (rocker) covers before oils had good detergent / dispersant packages. I had to use a wire brush to remove bad cases, with plenty of carb-cleaner (toluene/xylene mix) for a clean finish. Combustion blow by forms water, acids and carbon, especially during short stop-go trips that don't warm the oil up properly. This chemical soup (sludge) of combustion byproducts can polymerize on surfaces as a tarry film. The detergent / dispersant additives keep this sludge suspended in the oil so it can be flushed out at the next oil change (the main reason the oil goes black). However, if you leave the oil in long enough these additives get exhausted and stop working. Looks simply like the oil was not changed frequently enough, or a budget house brand with poor detergency was used.

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justin_o_guy

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Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam
Reply #74 - 03/06/07 at 12:32:59

Rok, maybe you overlooked the specifics previously posted. In my case (oooh a pun!) the black stuff doesn't stick inside the clutch cover or in the bottom of the sump. Just on the side of the engine. The color is consistant from end to end. None comes off with Berrymans. If it was sludge I would expect it to be thicker & harder nearer to the cylinder. It's even from top to bottom & side to side. I used only Suzuki & yamalube. Changed oil at 3,000 miles, every time.

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