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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam chain /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1172586621 Message started by justin_o_guy on 02/27/07 at 06:30:21 |
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Title: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam chain Post by justin_o_guy on 02/27/07 at 06:30:21 It's not looking dangerous,but it's time to get the stuff together & replace the chain. The measurement using the depth gauge on the digital calipers was .738 from the shoulder on the plunger to the face of the housing. This measurement was taken after I had released the plunger & shoved it back & then manually pulled it out tight. Looking at the gap between the vertical runs of the chain, it's getting pretty close. I'll guess about 1/2". Time to do it I spose. Anyway, here's what I want to do. I would like to stick it back together while I get all the stuff together to do the job. Is it too worn to ride safely if there is .738 of the plunger poking out? It's not crooked like the pic in the forum, but I did see it thingy a bit when I tightened it by hand, just a degree or 2, nothing alarming. Also, if it's not too worn to ride, how can i re-use the gasket? It didn't tear much. It didn't tear across the sealing surface. What bugs me is the area that goes around the oil passages. If I clean that with Berrymans then the Stickum I got at the shop ought to handle it?? I don't want to waste a $15.00 gasket just so I can ride for a week or so while parts come in.( if it leaks a bit, that's no biggeee, BUT, if it leaks back into the sump instead of oiling the top end, That's an issue for me,,) Next question. With all the parts replacing going on, has anyone figured out just what all has to be replaced? Can an engine with 14,000 miles on it be okay with just the chain? Do I Have to replace the guides? I guess I better go ahead & get a gasket for the top end. When I saw the bolts for the side cover were different lengths & some had rubber backed washers I grabbed a piece of cardboard & poked holes in it with a screwdriver in the shape of the cover & poked them in the holes so I wouldn't get them mixed up.Keepin it simple, cuz, well,, you know.... ;) Thanks folks.. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 02/27/07 at 08:39:21 justin_o_guy wrote:
I don't see why you can't reuse the gasket for a temporary fix, myself. I have both guides out of mine, and even though I don't have new ones for comparison, I'm not changing them. It's up to you, but I don't see enough wear on them to bother. They look pretty good to me. I think it all involves cam chain stretch. Good idea with the holes in the cardboard. There are two places that seal oil passages in the cover and so there is a gasket. The rest you can figure out fairly easily because even though they are different lengths, they all thread in the same amount. That reminds me...and I'm sort of guilty of it, too...but there was a topic in here once about "lugging" the engine in higher gears, and running the idle speed too low. The author suggested that doing this would stretch the cam chain...and I'm thinking that might be really correct, too. Hindsight is a "pregnant dog". |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Kropatchek on 02/27/07 at 08:57:25 Greg_650 wrote:
Agreed, replace the chain and use your good judgement on the rear guide. Nitpicking again: There's 3 washers with rubber inserts. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 02/27/07 at 09:12:50 Kropatchek wrote:
There is? Aw, man. Now I gotta run out to the garage again. Geez... Is this it? http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CaseRightSide_1494.jpg |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Kropatchek on 02/27/07 at 09:30:26 Greg_650 wrote:
Not at all. It's the picture in the SSM, page 3-59 Engine, third picture from the top. It shows the RH side of the engine and 3 "A" 's for the location of the rubber-lined washers. Your picture shows the 2 locating dowels and an arrow with Q-mark to a place where there's no special washer. Good quality picture though. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 02/27/07 at 09:39:02 Kropatchek wrote:
Geez. I sit corrected. I wasn't even close. Damm. How about I go back to bed and then start over? Hey, at least, when I'm wrong, I'm 100% wrong :P You are right (again)...shift all of them 1 hole. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CaseRightSide01_1494.jpg |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 02/27/07 at 09:40:35 Greg, I sure appreciate your posts & pics. The current pic that shows the pilot jet will keep me from having to tear into the carb before I buy a pilot. There are 2 designs & now I know which is on the inside,, coolnisss., Okay, I will stick it back together & round up parts., I am looking at a Used cam Chain, how much stretch is acceptable? I don't want to have to replace it in just a few months. I can't remember the measurement or how many pins are to be measured.. I think I will write that down next time I see it.. I am surely guilty of many forms of abuse on this machine, but lugging the engine has never been an issue with me. I don't like being unable to accelerate with just the twist of the throttle, so I keep it in a gear that allows me to do that most of the time. On a rare, in town moment, on a straight stretch with little or no traffic I would allow myself to just cruise at the speed limit. The book says 5th gear & 30 mph is okay, but it doesn't feel right so I don't.. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 02/27/07 at 09:47:49 justin_o_guy wrote:
Check the other cam chain topic. I have a photo that shows the SSM specs for the cam chain. Well, I haven't lugged it at 25 like Hutch says he does, but 30 I've done quite a bit. The Raask pipe has a really cool shotgun sound to it at that speed, but I guess I'll stop :P BTW - in my signature line there are 2 - 155 mains. A large and a small. The 2 sizes are interchangeable. You just have to be sure to use the brass washer anyway. I dropped mine from 157.5 back down to 155 last night ;D |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 02/27/07 at 14:15:37 I have seen pics of different engines & some are still silvery shiny on the inside, another is a light tan from the oil. Guys, the inside of mine looks like it's been powder coated black. Like a cast iron skillet with a good & proper seasoning job done on it. I change the oil at 3,000 miles & use motorcycle grade oil. I run it free, not lugging it. Even in town I keep it a gear below what the book says I can get away with. Looks like a heat issue to me. Anyone else have an opinion? I hope it's a different opinion. I don't want it running that hot.. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 02/27/07 at 18:53:44 Sounds like dirt not heat. You'd have had symptoms of too much heat long before you went inside. My 2 bits. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Kropatchek on 02/28/07 at 01:39:45 justin_o_guy wrote:
As mentioned before: forget about the lenght of the chain, get a new one and you will see that the tensioner will be out by less than 18 mm. Got this from the German forum, they have a lot of experience. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Ed_L. on 02/28/07 at 06:15:34 I saw an engine that had a graphite oil used in it and the inside of the engine was coated with a black film sort of like you are describing. If you have a magnet handy try rubbing it on the black coating to see if any is pulled off. If some is then the film is from wear on the gears and moving parts. If you bought the bike used it could be the previous owner ran dirty oil in it and the film is from that. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Savage_Rob on 02/28/07 at 06:41:57 Some oils develop/retain soot much more than others too. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by KenGLong on 02/28/07 at 07:38:14 Kropatchek wrote:
I've been following these cam chain threads very closely because my '02 has about 22,000 miles and I'm concerned. Can it really be true that the Savage eats a cam chain in just 25,000 miles? Seems awful fast to me. I mean, I put 10K on it in just over a year. (Although that will begin to slow down as I'm riding the "other" bike more and more.) Just seems that a cam chain should last a lot longer than that. (Gotta order a gasket, chain and new guides then I'll tear into it.) Ken |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 02/28/07 at 11:39:57 Okay, I went & rubbed on it some more, with a small magnet, too. Nothing came off,might as well be powder coated.. looks like it is. I can't imagine it being dirt. I ride the crap outta this thing, but, I change oil like clockwork, or a bit early, never late.I've Always used motorcycle oil. Last oil change I went with Yamalube 20/40 because it was handy & I was tired of the oil leak where the clutch actuator passes thru the case. It was leaking the 10/40 & that stopped it. I will replace that O-ring & go back to 10-40. I've used Suzuki 10/40 except for the last oil change. ALSO< anyone know who has the best price on a cam chain? Is it good stuff or is it made of elastic? Are there different quality chains out there? Would this be a place to experiment with subjecting a part to extreme cold? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 02/28/07 at 14:21:16 justin_o_guy wrote:
If the bike is used, then I tend to think like Ed L. Maybe a previous owner used a graphite type oil. Getting into small porous parts of the metal is what it's supposed to do. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 02/28/07 at 17:02:20 I bought it new. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by steveh on 02/28/07 at 18:34:48 Here are some observations from the cam chain job I just did: I bought an official Suzuki chain from Ron Ayers. I think it was $87. My old guides looked fine, so I reused them. My tensioner piston showed 18 mm before the chain job and about 8mm after replacing the chain. Of course I should add that I am working on a basket case, basically, and I don't know the history of anything. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Kropatchek on 03/01/07 at 04:00:00 steveh wrote:
Bet your old chain was not stretched to the rejection measurement of the SSM. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/01/07 at 04:10:04 justin_o_guy wrote:
Well. That's not my first wrong idea ::) |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Ed_L. on 03/01/07 at 08:10:26 Maybe the black film is from clutch wear, can't see how the entire engine got so hot that it burned the oil. if that happened I would think it would of seized up solid. Did the oil look bad when you did the oil changes or was it just regular dirty crankcase oil? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/01/07 at 09:20:25 If I was really worried about it, I'd do a double oil and filter change. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/01/07 at 10:04:00 It's always just looked like used oil to me. I am just gonna hit it with some Berrymans & see if it comes off. If not, I spose it will just stay. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Kropatchek on 03/02/07 at 03:16:11 To get back on topic "Camchain". The engine ( 43000 KM) in my '93 frame used too much oil, and several seeping leaks at the casing, that will be rebuild later. My spare engine with 12700 KM was removed from a '92 frame after testrun offcourse! To install the kit to "extend the life of the camchain" , I opened up the engine to discover the tensioner was 19 mm out and the piston and housing already bent a little. ( 12700KM = <8000 miles). The engine was opened before, and curious as I am, decided to remove the headcover to have a look at the condition of the top-end (infamous plug, etc.) Surprice, the plug had been fitted with NO sealant and NOT leaking. As the camsprocket and chain were at eyelevel I noticed someting peculiar, meaning, I did not see before. The chain is riding on top of the teeth of the sprocket and not touching the bottom in-between the teeth. I saw the light shining through My immidiate thought was: This is not good and I removed the chain, guide, camshaft to investigate further. At home I have and old chain and sprocket. Put the chain on the sprocket and looked up to the light. My first impression: there's less light shining trough. Could this be the place where the wear is?? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/02/07 at 04:46:00 Yep. I don't know if it is the same amount that you saw, but I noticed the same thing when I was getting the OD measure on the gears. It is more obvious on the Drive gear than the Driven gear, but the chain is definitely not snug in the pitch of the gear teeth. You may need to open these in a separate window to see them closer http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamGear_1791.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamGear_1783.jpg PS - Ya know what? I just realized that the stretch probably gave me an incorrect measurement on the chain diameter. Do you suppose that a measurement of the chain diameter with chain INSTALLED on the gear could be calculated so that we could measure it without removing it? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Savage_Rob on 03/02/07 at 05:05:19 I wonder if possibly that design is to allow better lubrication/cooling or if it's just bad. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/02/07 at 05:21:26 Savage_Rob wrote:
Yeah, it's an oil clearance or a squish zone. Don't we wish. I really don't know because I don't have a new one to reference, but I noticed the gap when I tried to wrap it around by hand. I wasn't really paying attention to that when I removed it... Look at this. I wish the background was white, but here's a closeup... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamGearGap.jpg |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Savage_Rob on 03/02/07 at 05:27:30 Is that rainbow effect on your sprocket/gear from heat? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Kropatchek on 03/02/07 at 05:28:04 Greg that's excactly my observation. Can't make that kind of pictures unfortunately. The "measurement " on the old chain and sprocked was done by eyeballing and it seems to be smaller. BTW noticed you signature picture, don't clean off the oilstains in between the pistonrings. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Ed_L. on 03/02/07 at 05:35:07 Looks like as the chain stretches the pitch changes and it rides farther out on the teeth of the gears. I can't see how it would be designed with that space under the chain even if it is for oil there is no need for a gap that wide. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/02/07 at 05:42:46 Savage_Rob wrote:
Sure the rainbow is from heat, but in this case, I'm sure it's from manufacturing where they heat treat the gear. If that rainbow came from internal temp. I'd have been on the side of the road for sure. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/02/07 at 05:51:44 Kropatchek wrote:
Like that varnish? Go ahead and explain why to everyone. But do you think that I can clean off the scrapes in the cylinder bore? The jug doesn't look too good. I'll start a new topic soon... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/PistonTDC_2080.jpg |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/02/07 at 05:57:22 Ed_L. wrote:
Got a point there, Ed. That's what I was thinking. That's definitely not wear on the gear...since nothing is touching down there. When I get a new chain, I'm gonna measure the "pin to pin" diameter of the chain wrapped on the gear and see how much difference there is. It would be cool if there was a reliable way to measure the chain installed. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Kropatchek on 03/02/07 at 08:23:33 Greg_650 wrote:
The varnish helps the ring(s) to seal-off the piston. If you can see honing marks in a spiral-like patern the jug is oke. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/02/07 at 08:40:39 Kropatchek wrote:
That's what I wanted you to say :P Quote:
That's a problem. No real honing marks and I have some up and down scrapes. I'm gonna try to get my lens in there...better than this :P http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CylinderBore_2090.jpg |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Kropatchek on 03/02/07 at 08:43:24 Greg_650 wrote:
Now it's not our secret anymore! Up/down scrapes were made by something; the rings perhaps |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/02/07 at 08:48:09 Kropatchek wrote:
Yeah. I need to measure the end gap on the rings and the cylinder bore. Going out to the garage ::) http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CylinderCamera_2107.jpg |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by verslagen1 on 03/03/07 at 11:38:27 The chain can't ride to the bottom of the gear by design. This because of manufacturing tolerance in making the gear. If it did, it would stretch/break the chain immediately. Instead, there should be a close fit at somepoint like with gear to gear. What we have to be concerned with here is (darn, forgot the term) sloppy fit. The chain shouldn't float (advance, lag) too much on the gear durring operation. In general, the chain is going to lag on the driving cog and advance on the driven cog (from the chains point of view). And really, the only point of concern for maintaining timing between cam and crank is the length between the last tooth of engagement on the cam and the 1st tooth on the crank. The rest don't do any real work. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/03/07 at 12:28:12 I looked more closely at the black coating inside the case. It's not on the inside of the clutch cover.That's just cast aluminum & looks brand new. Looking thru the oil return holes into the main sump, there's no black coating on the bottom there. Since I don't generally slip the clutch I don't see how clutch parts could be making the side of the engine inside the clutch cover as black as coal. It doesn't wipe off, Berrymans doesn't cut it off. It doesn't even discolor a white rag after an initial wipe with Berrymans. I am starting to think it's a factory coating.Anyone been in an 05 S40? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/03/07 at 12:52:24 verslagen1 wrote:
And Kropatchek...your opinion please? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/03/07 at 12:58:38 justin_o_guy wrote:
Maybe your motor got burnt :o Just a joke. My guess is that you have nothing wrong with regard to the color. Do you have a digital camera? Since the price on the Savage hasn't changed in years, I doubt that Suzuki is doing anything new in there. That would mean more engineering and research, and the cost would have to go somewhere. Maybe the mold was dirty after a couple million Savage40s :) |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/03/07 at 15:36:56 Greg, thanks for the interest, but since the stuff doesn't budge even with Berrymans on it, I am just not gonna sweat it. If it was burned oil, I would have siezed the engine. Also, the coverage is so even that it couldn't be a heat issue. It would look different across that large an area. I'm just gonna stick it together & go shopping for parts. I will just replace the chain & the 2 gaskets. It's not making scary noises. It just runs & makes me grin. Hopefully, that will continue for several more years. Anyone with an idea as to who has the best price on a chain,, I am open to suggestions.; |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by tbalam on 03/03/07 at 19:02:40 I just ordered the guides, as my chain was spec'd new at 127mm. My tensioner was 20mm out and that was the last tooth on the ratchet. As soon as they come in and I stick it back together I'll let you know how much the tensioner is out. My guess is that the guides don't where much but that they aren't the same shape as they are new. I'll post pics when they come in. Oh, and Greg, It's all your fault. My Block is sitting out of the frame and in peices. I am not doing a piston or full tear down, but it was far enough apart that i decided to do some take it out and clean and mod a few things. Thanks for all your help. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/03/07 at 19:41:14 What all are ya doing to it Tbalam? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by tbalam on 03/03/07 at 20:00:39 I am doing some wiring rework. Looking at fabbing some forward controls, doing the chain Mod, plug fix, stiffer clutch springs, relocating the battery box, removing the air box, Front brakes, more carb tuning. and most importantly cleaning the heck out of it. Also putting in a new breather, and some other minor things, along with a cam chain. I want to take off the old front running lights and do something there, I hate them. I just repainted it this fall, with a color shifting paint. I reshaped the seat and upholstered it. Took off the fender brackets and the sissy bar, as well as changed and moved the rear turn signals. Already did the seatlift and with the new shape I can ride for hours. No real complicated stuff, just time consuming. It'll take time with being in school and all. But it all boils down to tinkering, i love it when it starts after i have done something to it, and i can squeeze a few more horses out of it. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by tbalam on 03/03/07 at 20:04:28 Oh i forgot to mention... I am slowing going to change out the bars with some 1 1/4" drag bars, and change the controls eventually. all takes time when living on financial aid. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/03/07 at 21:35:06 Sounds great. Have fun. That it takes time & ya have to work inside a budget just makes it all that much cooler when you are done. I am just planing on shimming the clutch springs. I hope that's enough.I've reshaped my seat a few times. I seem to give it a "Mohawk" every now & then. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by franch on 03/03/07 at 22:12:42 I agree with Tbalam, the guides change shape/become more flexible etc.. bottom line - we have to be diligent with our cam chains and it's really not hard to take off the right side cover to check. Also I feel strongly (based on experience) that the gasket can be reused- (as long as the top portion of the gasket doesn't tear, since it acts as an oilway) -by adding some permatex here and there ; usually at bolt locations; where some of the gasket sticks to the case and some of it sticks to the cover. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/04/07 at 06:09:47 tbalam wrote:
Whew! I was worried. I hadn't been blamed for anything in a couple weeks, but that makes me feel much better. Thanks. The chain was 127 mm new? Huh? Would you mind measuring the new guides and make a detailed comparison between old and new. Believe it or not, I found a way to leave the crankcase in the frame and still remove the head and cylinder. There she sits with the electrical still attached...(I put the side cases back on just to keep dirt out) http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/TopEndRemoved_2115.jpg |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by allan on 03/04/07 at 08:52:00 ;D oh my greg someones wiped chocolate over your casings ;D allan. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/04/07 at 11:36:07 allan wrote:
Darn. I wonder how that happened. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Kropatchek on 03/04/07 at 12:01:16 Greg_650 wrote:
I think verslagen is almost right. The distance between the last and first tooth is controling the timing but i believe for the driving force more thooth are involved. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by KenGLong on 03/04/07 at 16:08:01 What happens if the tensioner comes apart when you're doing 70 on the freeway? (I just got back from a ride in which about 40 miles was at 70 on the freeway and my Savage has about 22,000 on the odometer.) Also, I just priced out all the parts to do a cam chain job on the Savage and it came to $225 at Ron Ayers. That was for the cam chain, the guides, the tensioner, the clutch cover gasket, three small gaskets and the 8mm circlip. Am I forgetting anything? Ken |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/04/07 at 18:48:18 I've only got 14,000 miles on mine & it's time. If mine had 22,000 it wouldn't roll out the door till I looked at that chain & tensioner. Bad stuff happens , Ken, when that tensioner lets go. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Reelthing on 03/04/07 at 19:04:11 KenGLong wrote:
well you can't d but one guide without pulling the jug - had you intended to go that far? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/04/07 at 20:39:19 KenGLong wrote:
Yep. You'll need a 5th driven gear too. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Kropatchek on 03/05/07 at 05:33:52 KenGLong wrote:
The tensioner will separate in 2 pieces, the spring will fall inbetween the primary gear and the clutch gear. As the camchain is no longer tight it will skip a few teeth, hence the valve timing is out of sequence, the valves will hit the piston causing consideral more damage than the $ 225 you have to spent now. Required parts: The front guide is not required. As reelting said: you have to remove the cylinder head. If the tensioner is not more than 18mm out and the housing is not damaged you can reset and reuse it. The 8 mm circlip can be reused. Step 1 The tensioner separates: http://www.ls-650.de/Thumperbike/assets/images/Steuerkette2.jpg Step 2 The timing has changed and the valve(s) have hit the piston http://www.ls-650.de/Thumperbike/assets/images/Kolben1.jpg And so on: Now you need a complete head, piston, valves, etc. http://www.ls-650.de/Thumperbike/assets/images/Kopf.jpg |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/05/07 at 05:46:49 Kropatchek wrote:
Boy, that little graphic sure takes all the fun out of it :) Has anyone yet compared the thickness on a new and old rear guide? Just curious, since I know that my chain has stretched 1 MM over a span of 21 pins (from 127 to 128...) |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by KenGLong on 03/05/07 at 07:01:53 Kropatchek wrote:
Wow. Guess I'll get the parts on order and refrain from 70 MPH on the freeway until, I take a look in there. This cam chain tensioner issue begs the question...how many miles do all of you put on your Savages in a year? Can't be much 'cause if I had to do this cam chain tensioner job every two years...well, you get the idea. Ken |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/05/07 at 08:06:21 KenGLong wrote:
Yes. It really begs an answer too. Like is there a way to prevent it, was something done wrong that caused it, or will this happen over and over? Funny too 'cause after having the bike for 7 years, this was the first time the subject came up. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Kropatchek on 03/05/07 at 08:53:22 Greg_650 wrote:
It's the design that does not allow for much improvement. Unless a similar sytem as Blue Thumper has designed is installed. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/05/07 at 09:49:45 Kropatchek wrote:
Yeah, and I remember my 850 Yamaha too. Sold it with 29K on it and it had an external adjustment that never needed anything done :( |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by KenGLong on 03/05/07 at 13:52:00 Well, I took the clutch cover off this afternoon and here's what I found. http://www.thelongtrek.com/savagecamchain/tensioner.htm Did I measure the plunger extension the same as everyone else? Is 22.8mm a lot? Ken |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/05/07 at 14:00:19 Whoa...that looks to be a little more extended than mine. 22.8 MM? I wonder what's left. I'll have to measure my plunger out in the garage....unfortunately I forgot to measure mine while it was installed. As well, yours also appears to have the same color coating to the inside of the casing as Justin's...which should be a relief of sorts to him. This whole topic is just a little bit discouraging....isn't it? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by KenGLong on 03/05/07 at 14:17:31 Greg_650 wrote:
Whoops, typo alert! That should be 20.8mm, not 22.8. Wow, it is a very dark color in there, isn't? No wonder it was so hard to photograph. I'm relieved that my tensioner is still reusable but I am a bit discouraged to confirm that, at best, my cam chain will need replacement in under 23,000 miles. Ken |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Reelthing on 03/05/07 at 15:14:50 I think they'll go more but say the '95 I have is to fine of a running engine to let it go pop - and not unlike the time'n belt replacement on some >$30k autos @75k->100k miles |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/05/07 at 19:29:54 KenGLong wrote:
So then the color on the inside of yours is not from dirty oil? I guess that Justin doesn't have a problem. Yours...you also have more miles than I and the tensioner is a little more extended. The wear is kinda linear, I guess. http://www.thelongtrek.com/savagecamchain/clutchcoveroff.jpg And mine... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/OilJet.jpg The question: Why are the engines so different looking? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Max_Morley on 03/05/07 at 19:58:29 Don't know about the engine case treatment, but can tell you that on my 96 at 28 k miles, when I touched the tensioner, it fell apart. On mine the tensioner aluminum housing had worn out of round on the bottom side and is serviced by replacing the whole assembly. I ordered the snap ring as I figured if I didn't it would take a sail around the shop going back on, something about aman named Murphy. I put a new chain and tensioner and crank gear on, seems I forgot it was LH thread and the new air impact I have is not very forgiving in reverse (over 500ft lbs. according to Snap-on). It fractured the gear into 6 pieces. Had the aviation folks verify the condition (via non destructive testing methods) of the primary drive gear as it was on national back order. I'm sure it very seldom wears out, maybe gets a broken tooth when the tensioner comes apart and jams in the gears. I will check mine at 40K miles or so and replace both gears, chain and guide(s) at that time . As someone said, the small (crank) gear may wear faster than the larger camshaft gear. It does happen that way on final drive chains on the Hondas my B-i-L runs for farm bike. We do the drive sprocket and chain the 2nd year and then both sprockets and chain the 3 rd year. Seems to work OK and we've not lost one yet in service. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/05/07 at 21:50:29 Okay, I did the inch to millimeter conversion. From the flat of the housing to the shoulder of the tensioner, not the bolt, it is 18.75 mm. The distance between the chain headed Up & the chain coming Down is just a finger width, close to 1/2".I don't want to use the tensioner up needlesly, but I don't want to replace the chain before it has to be done. I already closed the thing up & NO, I didn't measure between pins. I totally forgot. So, the question is, am I in a hurry? Should I get right after it or can I ride it for another few thousand miles? That's IF the wear rate is constant. I have 14,000 miles on it & it's worn to this point. What's the maximum safe measurement on the tensioner?( again, I used a depth gauge on a dila caliper to read to the shoulder from the flat of the tensioner housing.)Any clues, folks? I am comforted some by the color of the other engine. I had decided it was factory. If it's not, I don't think I ever want to know,, that stuff is on there tight, & it's hard. I hope it's factory, but why would they do that? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Kropatchek on 03/06/07 at 03:25:02 @justin @ken @greg The recommendation I read, you know where is: 1) Replace the chain if the tensioner is out for 18 mm or more 2) Replace the rear guide if it shows wear marks. 3) Replace the tensioner if the hole in the housing is elongated Getting my new chain and guide in a few days and will take some measurements of different combinations of new and old parts. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by KenGLong on 03/06/07 at 06:27:37 Greg_650 wrote:
I don't think my blackened case is from dirty oil. The color doesn't come off and I've cleaned the inside of a Chevy 350 during a rebuild so I know that old oil film can be cleaned off with a little gasoline and elbow grease. This stuff isn't from dirty oil. Mine is a '02. I bought it in Sep '05 from a local dealer with about 12,000 on her. She has about 22,000 now. Don't know. <shrug> Ken |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/06/07 at 08:26:46 justin_o_guy wrote:
At least we have part of the answer now. Can't imagine why the case is coated. Looks like a spray on under coating :P |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by allan on 03/06/07 at 11:40:32 could it be that the casings are porous, I work in the truck industry and often gearboxes come in for repair that have a similiar coating on them to stop oil leaking out from poor manufacture, which is why they come into us as its found a way out, seized box or at least very noisey cant understand why just on internal parts as with my thought it can only leak back to sump. Only a thought not an answer, allan. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by rokrover on 03/06/07 at 12:14:51 That black coating looks like classic motor oil sludge to me. Used to be common under valve (rocker) covers before oils had good detergent / dispersant packages. I had to use a wire brush to remove bad cases, with plenty of carb-cleaner (toluene/xylene mix) for a clean finish. Combustion blow by forms water, acids and carbon, especially during short stop-go trips that don't warm the oil up properly. This chemical soup (sludge) of combustion byproducts can polymerize on surfaces as a tarry film. The detergent / dispersant additives keep this sludge suspended in the oil so it can be flushed out at the next oil change (the main reason the oil goes black). However, if you leave the oil in long enough these additives get exhausted and stop working. Looks simply like the oil was not changed frequently enough, or a budget house brand with poor detergency was used. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/06/07 at 12:32:59 Rok, maybe you overlooked the specifics previously posted. In my case (oooh a pun!) the black stuff doesn't stick inside the clutch cover or in the bottom of the sump. Just on the side of the engine. The color is consistant from end to end. None comes off with Berrymans. If it was sludge I would expect it to be thicker & harder nearer to the cylinder. It's even from top to bottom & side to side. I used only Suzuki & yamalube. Changed oil at 3,000 miles, every time. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by tbalam on 03/06/07 at 16:51:45 Here are some pics with my new camchain guides in place. 1st pic is wide angle with new guides, sorry no before picture. http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C03%5C06%5Cbikepics-821981-full.jpg (http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C03%5C06%5Cbikepics-821981-full.jpg) note: no black coating in here, :) 2nd pic is a close-up new guides and tensioner is 16mm out. Tensioner was 20mm with old guides. http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C03%5C06%5Cbikepics-821984-full.jpg (http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C03%5C06%5Cbikepics-821984-full.jpg) last pic is comparison of old and new guides. New guides are on top in each pair. http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C03%5C06%5Cbikepics-821985-full.jpg (http://w2.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C03%5C06%5Cbikepics-821985-full.jpg) notice cracks in each of old guides. On doing some measurements the new front guide was 1mm wider at the bolt hole than the old. Other than that they were within .5 mm, and there was almost no difference on the chain side of the guides. I guess what i am saying that I was completely wrong, with my guide theory, and although the guides contribute some, 4mm in my case, it is the chain that is the major culprit. So I am going to r. ayers and ordering a new chain, i am taking no chances. click on the pics for full size. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/06/07 at 21:58:46 Great. Now we're getting somewhere. I can't wait to see what "new everything" measures out to be... Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by verslagen1 on 03/06/07 at 23:11:09 Man! that puppy's clean! Let me pay homage oh great one! And what sacrafice do I offer upon the single cylinder alter? dynojuice or synthetic? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/07/07 at 04:17:08 verslagen1 wrote:
I would think that something along the line of "Roadkill" would be more appropriate....Dog, cat, bird... |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by KenGLong on 03/07/07 at 06:53:10 justin_o_guy wrote:
That's the biggest clue in this mystery. If it was oil deposits, it would be inside the clutch cover too. Ken |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by KenGLong on 03/07/07 at 06:56:13 rokrover wrote:
My clutch cover will be off for several days while I order up some parts. Anyone is welcome to stop by and have a look-see. Ken in Albuquerque |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by verslagen1 on 03/07/07 at 11:45:40 Greg_650 wrote:
I've done the squirrel thing, they do like to run across roads at inappropriate times. Seen one firmly affixed to the hood of a camarro. The guy liked racing up and down a service road to see how many he could get. But really like to see some input put on the dirty/clean cases we have here as to what oil is in use. It might change my mind. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/07/07 at 12:17:10 Once again I will make my case( ooh ANother pun) for the black being a factory thing. I have only used Suzuki oil for every oil change except the last one, when I went with a Yamalube 20/40. I never went more than 3000 miles on an oil change. Visual clues include: it's not black or even stained in the bottom of the sump. I didn't wipe in there, when I drained the oil, it was as clean in there as the inside of the clutch cover, which looks like factory fresh cast aluminum. The black color is even all across the side of the engine. If it was sludge I would expect it to be thicker & darker closer to the hottest points, which would (IMO) create a heavier, darker area nearest to the cylinder. There are signs of areas not completely covered, as I noticed near the oil fill hole, since the baffle creates a bit of an obstruction to an application of (whatever they used). Now, WHY? If it was done at the factory, was it done to all models that have the blacked out cylinders? The case id black, the cyl;inder is also black, with the fin edges machined off to show the aluminum. And, why would a manufacturer spend one red cent to do such a thing? But, since it won't wipe off even using Berrymans High powered cleaner, I mean not even a smudge on a white rag,, (once the excess oil was off of it), but removing that covering isn't happening without abrasives. Since it's not in the sump or on the clutch cover, I don't see it as an issue. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/07/07 at 13:26:57 Yeah, but is that burned oil? Just kidding (greg ducking, now...) |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by verslagen1 on 03/07/07 at 14:24:10 Thanks for the info, The fact that the finish does not exist at the bottom of the sump can mean either of 2 things... one the finish/sealer was disolved by the hot oil. Or it's sludge. And the evidence for that is the film is missing in areas not constantly awash with oil or the surface is relatively cool. (why a duck, why not a chicken?) ;D And I think if they had a bad lot of cases that were so porous as to leak oil they would have scrapped the entire lot. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/07/07 at 14:27:36 Okay. I'll just hide behind you ;D |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/07/07 at 22:50:54 Dude, Verslagen, really, Berrymans won't budge it. I have cast all both eyeballs at it with a real interest. If the hot oil in the sump disolved the sludge, wouldn't I see tracks where hot oil dripping off of gears washed a trail? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/08/07 at 04:58:55 justin_o_guy wrote:
But are you sure it isn't burnt oil? Okay, okay, I believe you. Ken's engine had me convinced already anyway. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/08/07 at 09:56:18 Yea, Kens engine made me feel better, too. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/08/07 at 10:43:58 Really though, "what, why, and how" still needs an answer. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/08/07 at 11:08:15 What: It's obviously oil burned on. Why: Cuz, it's got HOT, man,, Come Onn How, cuz that's how stuff works,, Really, woulda thought you knew this by now.. I guess calling the dealership & talking to someone in service? naaah, they've never seen inside one, we fix them all from here.. I am not calling Japan,, No,, |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/08/07 at 12:32:23 justin_o_guy wrote:
I guess that it's obvious. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Reelthing on 03/08/07 at 18:22:42 Lord I hate to suggest the following thing and certainly don't want to start yet another erl thread, however - if there is any place in this engine that could benefit from better lube is this cam chain and it's componets - Justin if your going to keep this and ride it like you've been - might be real fine test case for syn lube. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/08/07 at 20:56:48 Well, not planning on selling it. I guess there's no explaining how I treat that thing. I try to ride it nice & easy, just can't. I might just try that. Synth oil , hmm. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/08/07 at 21:06:36 justin_o_guy wrote:
Hey...all kidding aside. If you can't rub any of that color off, then it ain't from any oil sludge that I've ever seen. I know dirty engines. Had some that the drain plug in the pan wouldn't work. Nothing came out. Had to scoop the crap out it was so thick, but it would at least move. If you can't move, wipe, or scrape that color off there then it's meant to be there. No need to change your oil type unless you want to. The color inside your cases is just a mystery, not an anomaly. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Aeres on 03/08/07 at 21:23:46 Today I was just replacing my timing chain in the '95 engine I have, and thought I would put in my $0.02 since there seems to be some weirdness going on with these chains and tensioners. I recently bought this engine used, it was still running but was making a hellova racket, which turned out to be severe chain noise. The tensioner had ratcheted out beyond the end of the plunger rack, popped out and was about to let the main spring loose into the case. After pulling out the chain and measuring the 20 links as per the SSM, I found the chain was still within tolerances. 128.3 mm vs. the 128.9 wear limit in the book. Why would the tensioner plunger pop out if the chain was in spec? This was a factory build, so there was no shaved head or any other apparent goofiness. Why was the chain so loose? I put in a different known good chain, but the new tensioner was still about two clicks from bailing out like the last one. This was unacceptable. So my solution was to modify the main tensioner guide. This guide has a metal insert for strength, so I carefully bent it to provide a longer curve in the center. Adding this mild curve allowed it to take up more chain slack than the stock shape for a given displacement of the tensioner. Once I installed this mod the plunger of the tensioner ratcheted out to only 10mm (measured between the plunger shoulder and tensioner face) before it tightened the chain completely. This means that about 2/3 of the plunger rack is still within the tensioner body. Much better... http://farm1.static.flickr.com/157/415289293_c95dbb9aa7.jpg?v=0 http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/415289290_c16f9827ae.jpg?v=0 If I succeeded in loading the pics right (I am a newbie to this forum stuff, as you might be able to tell) you can see the slight bend in the top one vs the bottom one. So, I'll fire it up tomorrow and find out whether I fixed it or whether I have a new boat anchor. I'll let you know what happens... |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Reelthing on 03/08/07 at 21:53:28 Greg_650 wrote:
Oh I wasn't think about the color - just that a little better lube might make the chain live a little longer - unless it's the guides giving way |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/08/07 at 21:55:31 Thanks for that input & best of luck. So, you tweaked the left side chain guide in? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Reelthing on 03/08/07 at 21:58:10 Aeres wrote:
well welcome aboard and jump on in with us - your going to need to post the picture someplace as this forum dosen't up load it just displays - email them to me and if you want and we'll post them |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Aeres on 03/08/07 at 22:16:22 Thanks for the welcome! Looks like I got the pics in there. So now you can see the mod (aka tweak) I was talking about. I think this may also reduce the wear on the guide since its no longer concentrated at the sharp corner at the bottom. But I'll be happy if the engine runs ok and just doesn't implode on me. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/08/07 at 22:32:39 I wish I had done that while I had the case off. Then I wouldn't have to go back in so soon. I also didn't measure the chain. I didn't even look to see if I could measure it installed. Wadda Dilbert... |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by verslagen1 on 03/08/07 at 22:43:06 Now I can see why if the chain is with in wear limits that replacing the guide is required! Thanks Aeres! ;D |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/09/07 at 04:48:53 Aeres wrote:
Since this was the factory build, how many miles are on that puppy? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by KenGLong on 03/09/07 at 07:53:00 Aeres wrote:
Cool! I will also do that to mine. The thought about the synth oil is a good one too. I think I'll switch to synth from here on out and see what happens. I haven't made any long term decision on keeping my '02 but I can at least start the long term test. Ken |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Aeres on 03/09/07 at 10:46:25 This '96 engine (I said it was a '95 before, but just looked at my records and apparently its a '96) has about 15k miles on it, according to the company that sold it. The rest of the engine looks pristine inside, so it doesn't look like its been abused at all. Also to note; I am doing this experiment on the old chain guide instead of a new one. The more I read about this in the forums, the more I'm becoming convinced that this may be a design flaw for these engines. Perhaps the guides are being manufactured correctly but not being shaped afterwards. I was looking closer at the pics in the SSM and I don't know how you would get the tensioner to look the way it is in the book without bending the guide. Even a new chain would put the tensioner out near its limits, as other pics in this thread show. When I made my mod, the tensioner is compressed almost identically to whats shown in the SSM. Ok, got to get back to the engine and we'll see if this works! Thanks everyone for the responses! |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/09/07 at 11:39:38 So, say ya stick a new chain on, what's the distance between the chain headed up & the chain headed down? I would want to line the chain up so the peaks on the inside of the links are opposite each other & measure the closest point. On my chain it was close to 1/2 ". It has just over 14,000 miles on it. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Aeres on 03/09/07 at 12:12:01 justin_o_guy wrote:
That's a really good question. I wish I had made that measurement before the case got buttoned up. One thing I did notice was that the closest points from the upside to the downside is now moved up into the cylinder case towards the middle of the tensioner guide. My impression is that there is now more distance between the two sides now since that gap has moved away from the smaller sprocket to the bigger one. I am also not using a new chain but a good used one that measured out at about 128.0 mm for 20 links as per SSM method. This chain will have to distort to the point of severe timing errors before the tensioner gets towards its limits. So hopefully this will mitigate any potential catastrophic engine failure even if there is lots of chain "stretch". |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/09/07 at 12:33:03 And you don't think that the pressure of the cam chain will cause the rear guide to straighten back out as the engine is running? You have both the pressure of the chain and the non-reversing movement of the tensioner involved here. If the guide flexes back toward its original shape the tensioner will click into a new ratchet position and stay there. I would guess that when that happens the curve cannot return. I hope that it is a quick fix that works, but I still believe the chain will always try to follow the path in this illustration. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/CamChainGraphic.jpg |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Aeres on 03/09/07 at 13:52:53 Greg_650 wrote:
Thanks for that Greg. I gave that some thought as well. My belief (hope?) is that since this is the slack side of the chain, the dominant force on that side is from the tensioner. It was a lot easier for me to compress the plunger into the tensioner body than to bend the tensioner guide (its a pretty stiff piece of steel in there) so I really think the guide will hold its new shape. But even if it fires up and runs fine now, like I think it will, I won't know for a while whether this will solve the problem for the long run. But I am optimistic... And even if it somehow returns to its original shape, I am likely no worse off than when I started. But now that I think of it, back where I started isn't very good. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Aeres on 03/09/07 at 16:19:32 Well it fired right up and all seems well! Chain noise is gone and it runs smooth. Now its time to tune... |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by verslagen1 on 03/09/07 at 16:58:23 I wonder If we could drill and tap a hole to align with the center of the guide. With that we could use a bolt with a spring to support this guide. And maybe dial in some adjustment from the outside. Those with them open... what do you think? ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/09/07 at 17:13:45 I would be reluctant to drill & tap a hole in that casting. I wonder about a different mount for the cam chain tensioner. If it had an offset post instead of straight, seems a bit more of the plunger could be inside it, allowing for more extension before the hole started getting oblonged or risk falling apart. As long as the post was stopped so that the pressure from the tensioner was tightening it sould hold I would think. Since every set of threads can't be the same, the male end would need a set of some sort. I don't know how much faith I would have in a jam nut in a hot oily place with vibration applied. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by verslagen1 on 03/09/07 at 22:32:53 Well my new chain is on order and I'll delve into it once it comes. I was thinking the same, offsetting the mounting for the tensioner so it could be made longer. But I think adding some support or stiffener to the guide will stabilize the guide and solve the mystery of why the chain measures good but the tensioner sticks out 18mm. My third idea is to replace the tensioner and guide with an idler pulley. Kind of what you find on a ten speed bike. Until it comes... I live vicariously. ;D |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/10/07 at 07:23:30 Aeres wrote:
Well, as long as you've considered all the options, what can I say? We all take calculated guesses from time to time...just as I'm doing in the other topic. I suppose the thing to do will be to put a few thousand on it an open it up for inspection before it would have failed anyway. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/10/07 at 07:26:30 verslagen1 wrote:
Maybe it's me, but could you sketch out that thought? My imagination isn't fully awake yet :P |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Aeres on 03/10/07 at 11:27:15 Greg_650 wrote:
Thanks Greg. Given that I had to put that guide on my knee and really put some force on it (75-100 lbs?) to bend it tells me its not going to go any where. So from where I sit today I am about 99% sure I have this problem licked for my engine. The shape is now more like other chain guides I have seen for other engines. In its original shape, the chain doesn't come in contact with the guide except at the bottom 'knee', which seems to me an unusual design. And I think that it is a flaw. However, my curiosity may get the better of me. I'm considering opening it up again just to see how the tensioner ratchet settled in after having run the engine for a bit. I can try to take some measurements of the separation between the up and down sides of the chain as was previously suggested. This will tell me if there were any quick changes from the config where I left it. For me, the thought of drilling and tapping the case to add another component to this timing system is really unnecessary. I recommend trying this bent guide technique, and only if that fails, then consider something more radical. If I decide to open it up I'll take a pic of the tensioner with the used chain and post it. And I'll let you know what I find. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/10/07 at 11:43:22 Aeres wrote:
I'll have to take a closer look at the guide this afternoon, too. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Aeres on 03/10/07 at 14:41:09 So I couldn't resist looking at it after it ran a bit. As you can see in the pic below, the tensioner has settled in to a good position, even though the chain is a used one and a bit stretched but still well within wear limits (has about 17k miles on it). http://farm1.static.flickr.com/156/416816578_c7cf1dde49.jpg?v=0 The measurement now is exactly 12.0mm from the plunger shoulder to the face of the tensioner body. The space between the two chains is in the neighborhood of 18mm or about 0.7 inches. In the photo below I am comparing the old plunger with the new one to illustrate how much of the plunger is still inside. It looks like over half the rack is still available to the ratchet. http://farm1.static.flickr.com/181/416816584_e51d6ee1a2.jpg?v=0 This plunger won't come out unless the chain lets go completely. So this is great from my perspective. I feel confident this will last so I will button it up and run it for several thousand miles and check it again. I'll keep you posted... |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by justin_o_guy on 03/10/07 at 15:24:21 Thanks, I am exactly in a place to benefit from your work. I sure appreciate this forum & the folks who lead the way.. I hope I am able to contribute to the cause by finding a way to do something on this bike easier & cheaper that is the norm.. Most likely won't,, I'll be reading, fixin & ridin,, hopefully, not in that order. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Greg_650 on 03/10/07 at 20:11:21 So far so good then. I did notice that my guide still has a small curve to it. Maybe you found a good quick fix. Put a couple thousand on it and check again? |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Aeres on 03/11/07 at 12:25:00 Well, I think I may have just gotten lucky and stumbled on a easy fix for this problem. But of course, that's why I am going to check it periodically; to make sure it stays fixed. And if it helps some other folks fix theirs and save some money, all the better. I will be very interested to hear other people's experience using this solution. Since I am a newbie, I have been reading through the other postings and I can see that this is where I need to go to take care of the other problems I will be working on. This is my first LS650 so I need to get acquainted with the Savages quirks and their fixes that have already been figured out. Lots of fun ahead! Thanks again! |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Kropatchek on 03/11/07 at 14:44:12 Thanks Aeres, every bit of info is usefull. 14K miles and tensioner 12 mm out. Comming back to my engine: Checked at 12,700 KM Tensioner out for 19 mm. Chain measured as per SSM 127.9 mm. Aquired a NEW chain and a new (rear) guide. Measurements: New guide and old chain >>> Tensioner 16 mm New guide and NEW chain>>> Tensioner 10 mm I opted to install the Kit as described in http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1168956104;start=25#25 Now the tensioner out measures 10 mm and the adjustment is not even halfway. |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by K1200LTryder on 04/11/07 at 11:54:10 Hey there Aeres....I'm with you on your fix, I'm thinking of welding a 'backbone' to the guide to strenghthen it further... YOU DA MAN !!! |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by Aeres on 04/11/07 at 13:03:43 Great! Glad this might help some others. Since I posted that last message I have put about 50 or so miles on it and noticed a small oil leak on the right side case. So shucks, had to go in and replace the gasket and check out the tensioner again. Not a mm change since the last time! I'm very pleased. Also. since this is the slack side of the chain and is under low tension, it probably doesn't need to have a reinforcement bar - just a new curve. Let me know how it works for you! Cheers, |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by K1200LTryder on 04/12/07 at 06:20:40 Does that rear tensioner guide come straight up through the cylinder?...Does the timing chain have to be removed first, or can it stay where it is ? Starting the teardown tonight and the SSM is kind of vague. The bike still runs, but barely...sounds REAL retarded ( timing wise). If it frustrates me too much, I can always hop on the Beemer and cool off...LOL |
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Title: Re: Okay, popped the case & looked at the cam Post by verslagen1 on 04/12/07 at 06:52:24 If the chain became too loose it can slip a cog. So, check your timing while it's apart. Once the pivot bolt is removed the rear guide can slip down. But you're going to have trouble getting back without removing the head cover. I didn't try to remove the guide before the chain. You got it this far, best to remove the chain so you can measure it. ;D |
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