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Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Frame (Read 894 times)
ohiomoto
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #30 - 01/05/21 at 19:00:13
 
Bravo!
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Armen
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #31 - 01/05/21 at 20:33:16
 
Hey Mike,
Is there a reason you made the stud puller only 57mm? Seems as though if it was a bit longer you could get and easier grab on it with a wrench.
thanks
-Armen
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #32 - 01/07/21 at 22:04:44
 
Armen, I'm pretty sure you will be able to use your technique to install the cylinder with piston but I assure you there's no wrestling involved when you use a ring compressor.  The jug glides right over those rings.  Regarding puller length, the LH jack-bolt is 50mm long so it dictated puller length.

Niceast, thanks for the vid.  Sometimes I just can't see the forest for all the trees.  Never thought of simply pivoting the head around the tall stud.  Cool.  Sure wish I could understand what the guy is saying.

Versy, it wouldn't surprise me if a coupling nut with a continuously threaded M9x1.25 bolt worked just as well as my LH rig.

Thanks to all for the questions and comments.
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #33 - 01/07/21 at 23:21:51
 
I have used a coupling nut with a an allen grubscrew inserted as a stud puller in the past
The grubscrew allows a socket to be used on the coupling nut for extraction
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Armen
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #34 - 01/08/21 at 05:59:00
 
Thanks Mike!
I just ordered bolts and taps and such for this project.
Found a 10x1.5x60mm hex bolt, so I'll make the puller a little longer to be able to grab it easier.
As far as installing the stud, I'll make another tool for that.
Do you happen to have a measurement for how much the stud sits above the surface of the head? I'll make the install tool with a depth (at the 9mm end) that matches the stud protrusion, so that the tool will bottom out against the head when the stud is at the right height.
Keep it coming!
thanks,
-Armen
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niceast
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #35 - 01/12/21 at 16:06:39
 
photo for reference

rotating cylinder head clockwise about the tall rear passenger side stud (viewing from top). cutting the corner adds the required few mm to clear the frame. I don't know how the guy in the video removed the cylinder head with the corner clearance.


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« Last Edit: 01/18/21 at 00:11:48 by niceast »  
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Armen
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #36 - 01/17/21 at 20:51:48
 
Hey Mike,
This all begs the question-how about changing those studs to bolts?  Do you happen to have the length of the stuff that sticks out of the case?
Save the stud extractor VooDoo. Just wrench the bolts out.
Seems like if you switch to something common, like 10MM studs, it shouldn't be too hard to find (or make) bolts.
Waddayatink?
thanks
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #37 - 01/17/21 at 23:04:57
 
Niceast that markup is sweet.  Tells the whole story.  Thanks

Armen, each stud is a different length.  They are also special reduced body, constant strength studs.  They are very long and you have to stretch them a bunch to achieve proper stress.  Nut rotation is a bit different for each stud because the stress vs stretch is based on the effective length of the stud.  Torque would also be tricky.  The torque is based on friction between the internal and external threads plus the friction between the underside of the nut, the copper washer, and the cylinder head spot face.  The threads are steel on steel.  Switch to aluminum on steel and the friction changes.  Even with the factory studs it's still tricky to get the fasteners stressed properly.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1576269113/12#12

Bolts would be a nightmare.   The tool works great and it's easy to use, and I'm betting that a coupling nut with M9 x 1.25 threads straight through might work just as good.  The LH thread setup is probably overkill.  
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Armen
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #38 - 03/02/21 at 18:29:17
 
Woof!
So, I decided to sorta copy your idea and make a stud removal tool for an Airhead BMW. The Beemer uses a 10x1.5mm stud.
I bought a length of aluminum hex stock, a 10x1.5 LH tap, and a LH hex bolt.
Cut a piece of aluminum to about 60mm, tapped one end RH and the other end LH.
Put the giz on the stud, snugged up the LH bolt, and then cranked on it real hard with a wrench.
The remover unscrewed itself from the stud.
Tried every possible way of holding the giz, tightening the bolt, and no matter what, the whole mess unscrewed from the stud.
I'm wondering whey yours worked so much better?
is it because the thread pitch is different between the extractor bolt and the stud?
Maybe.
So, now what?
Maybe I get a 12x1.75 LH tap and bolt?
Waddayatink?
thanks
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #39 - 03/03/21 at 10:54:34
 
Have you ever removed one of the BMW studs?  In general, are they difficult to remove?

Are the BMW studs a class 5 interference fit, or set with anaerobic sealant?

I used the 1.5 pitch LH bolt because it was available, but I have to admit the difference in pitch worked in my favor.  For a given amount of rotation, the bolt advances toward the stud faster than the body backs off the stud.  I was pleasantly surprised when I found that 1.5 pitch bolt.
Seemed perfect, like a match made in heaven.

Just about any method of stud removal relies on friction (double nut, threaded collet, vice grips).  Are the threads nice and clean, free of any oil, anti-seize, grease, etc.?  If the studs are set with anaerobic sealant, your screwed.  Same goes for a class 5 fit.

Have you tried splitting a nut like I described at the first part of this post?  I'm very curious how difficult the BMW studs are to remove (normally).  The LS studs are fairly easy to get out.  I suspect an older bike that has years of corrosion built up around the studs (Especially the right-rear since it's exposed to the atmosphere.  Naturally, the one you really need to get out.) might prove to be a real challenge.

So the burning question is.......why in the world are you trying to remove the studs with the cylinder head in place????  The BMW doesn't have anything in the way that would prevent simply removing the nuts and pulling the head straight off.
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #40 - 03/03/21 at 17:03:17
 
Mike,
So, heres the gag:
First time I yanked one of the BMW studs was in the 70's, and it came out very easily.
Recently I've done a few of the later bikes, and the studs were insano tough to get out. Last one I did I had the head off, and thoroughly destroyed the stud trying to remove it. If they are using thread sealant, I don't see it on the threads. If it was a tight thread fit (BMW liked to do that), heat and double nut should have worked.
I've had other reasons in the past for removing the studs. This time, I was trying to swap out the rusty nasty stud/washer/nut for nice stainless ones.
Made the studs. Easy enough. Got a stick of stainless threaded rod and cut to size. Cleaned up the ends.
I'd like to be able to do this without pulling the head. The top and bottom studs are the ones out in the breeze getting rusty and nasty.
I thought I'd use your scheme and remove the stud in place.
I had a spare cylinder, so it was easy to try your gizmo.
One side came out easily, the other side NG. No amount of tightening the tool, bolt, Kroil, heat, hitting it, whatever got the stud to turn. All that happened was the tool unscrewed. Double nut was equally worthless.

Thats when I stepped back and realized that I had used the same pitch (1.50) for the remover as was on the stud. Scratched my head a bit and realized that was the problem.
Of course, by that point I had bought two 10x1.5 LH taps, as well as an assortment of 10x1.5 LH bolts.
So, I thought I'd go to 12x1.75 LH. Oh boy howdy does that oddball metric stuff get expensive!
Had an attack of common sense and realized that inch thread stuff would be cheaper. 1/2x13 is around the same as 12x2mm. Even better!
So, I just ordered a 1/2-13 LH tap and will chase down some LH bolts.
I'll let you know how it works.
In the meantime, I guess I can make the puller you described for the Savage, as well as one for an 8x1.25 for good luck.
Thanks again for sharing your wisdom!
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #41 - 03/08/21 at 20:17:32
 
So, I got the 1/2-13 LH taps and bolt. Redid the coupling nut with the 1/2-13 goods, and.... crap.
Wouldn't loosen the stud. No matter what i tried, the coupling nut just loosens off the stud.
Finally held the coupling nut from loosening and put an impact gun on the LH bolt
Coupling nut broke.
Another few doses of Kroil, double nut, and the stud came out.
Not sure what I learned except that DBM is better at this than me Smiley
Not I'm thinking about getting a set of case studs and TIG welding the nuts on. Turn them into long bolts. Use a torque wrench on top of a torque angle gauge and read how much rotation equals the specified torque. Then treat the welded up stud/nut combo as a bolt, tighten using a torque angle gauge.
The plot thickens.....
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #42 - 03/13/21 at 04:43:35
 
I was half asleep the other night - and my mind wandered to the "double nut" method of removing a stud.

There has been a time or two where the 2 nuts just would not grip tight enough to get the stud out.

So.....would there be additional clamping force if you used 3 or 4 nuts?  I realize that sometimes there may not be room - but my thought is that the clamping force would double if you used 3 nuts rather than 2.
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #43 - 03/13/21 at 15:12:58
 
Don't forget red loktite
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Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram
Reply #44 - 03/14/21 at 18:33:51
 
Dave, since all of the typical methods rely on friction, I suspect stacking additional nuts would probably improve the bite.  Each additional nut increases the length of engagement between internal and external threads.  More engagement equals more friction.  

If you stacked three nuts,  would probably be best to jam the middle nut against the top nut, and then jam the bottom nut against the middle nut.  Turn the bottom nut to remove the stud.  I haven't seen many applications that are generous enough with thread protrusion to allow three nuts.  But it would be useful in those instances where the head has been removed.

JOG, Loctite might be a good option too.  Clean the threads.  Then apply primer.  Then install the pulling device with the Loctite (262, 271 or 272) on the threads and fully tighten the pulling device.  Let the mess set up for a day or two.  Then, pull the stud.  If you are lucky and the stud comes out, use a propane torch to heat up the pulling tool so that it can be removed from the stud.

Sounds to me like Armen had an especially tight stud, or it was corroded, or set with thread sealant.  I'm glad he was able to get it out.  Armen, I'm confident that your skills are a notch or two better than mine.  You simply had a case of stuck-stud.

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