SuzukiSavage.com /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Frame /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1609889036 Message started by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:23:56

Title: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Frame Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:23:56 In a thread started by WunGun “Clunky/Tapping Engine Sound (10/17/20)”, I responded to a post by jd290 that asked if the head could be removed without removing the engine from the frame.  At that time, I was confident that the engine would have to come out of the frame. Niceast came back with a post stating that he had removed his head with the engine still in the frame.  I asked how he accomplished that, and also reached out to the rest of the forum.  No reply.  I’m sure some of you already know that Niceast is correct.  You can remove the cylinder head without removing the engine.  I humbly stand corrected.  A BIG shoutout to Niceast.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:24:40 I have a lot of plans for different projects that involve removing the cylinder head.   Working the top end without tearing the whole engine out of the frame would be a bonus.   I was finished with all my exhaust system tests.  It was time to remove the 94mm engine and reinstall the 97mm engine.  Since my next project (install & test the Wiseco 94mm flat-top) would require tearing down the top end, why not see if I could remove the cylinder head with the 94mm engine still in the frame?   Let’s look at the problem and how to get around it.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:25:28 With the engine in the frame, there is only 2-1/16” clearance between the intake valves and the frame (maybe 2-1/4” if you hold the scale straight up & down).  On my head, the valves are a bit taller than the stock valves.  With a stock cylinder head, this measurement would probably be more on the order of 2-1/8”.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:26:12 Unfortunately, the right-rear cylinder stud sticks out of the cylinder 3-1/4”.   With that stud in-place, you have to raise the head about 3-5/16” just to clear the stud.  The valves will hit the frame long before you clear the stud.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:26:48 The left-rear stud is shorter.  The head could be removed with the left rear stud in place, but it would be tight, and there would be risk of gouging the head gasket sealing surface.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:27:38 The studs only protrude from the cylinder head about 3/8” to 7/16”.  Not a lot to grab and there’s no room for the double-nut trick.  You don’t wanna go grabbin on those threads with a pair of vicegrip pliers.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:28:14 If you modify an M9x1.25 nut you can use it to get a grip on the stud without chewing up the threads.  Use a hacksaw to cut through one side of the nut and partially through the other side.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:29:12 Now the special spilt-nut can be threaded onto the stud.  Vicegrip pliers can be used to pinch the nut on the stud and back the stud out.  This assumes that the stud wasn’t set with red Loctite, in which case you’re screwed. Removing the right-rear stud using the split nut is a slow process.  It takes patience, but it works OK.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:31:00 It works on the left-rear stud too.  Again, takes patience but works OK.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:31:54 I didn’t try it but I’m sure the split-nut will work fine on the left-front stud.  The right-front stud???  Not happenin.  Vicegrip pliers ain’t goin down that rabbit hole.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:32:35 Once the rear studs are out, there’s enough room to remove the cylinder head.  The rear chain guide makes things a bit clumsy.  I suggest you remove the rear chain guide before attempting to lift the head off.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:33:25 With the cylinder head out of the way, the forward studs and froward chain guide can be removed.   Take these out and I bet there’s enough room to remove the cylinder.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:34:03 It’s the freeway of love.  Nothin in the way now.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:34:38 With all the studs removed and the chain guides removed, the cylinder is ready to lift.  You want to position the piston at bottom dead center.  To keep the crank and piston from moving, you can hold the crankshaft in place with vicegrip pliers and bailing wire.  Grab the flats on the primary drive gear nut so as not to damage any critical running surfaces.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:35:17 Wooden wedges work great for breaking the base gasket joint.  The wedges spread the force out over a large area, and they are soft, so they don’t chew up the finish on the engine case or cylinder.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:35:52 Viola!  The cylinder is off.   It was easy to get off, but the piston is all the way at bottom dead center.  To get it back together, the piston will have to be a lot higher to allow using a ring compressor.  There won’t be as much room between the frame and cylinder.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:36:24 A new piston support is in order.  About ¾” thick works fine.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:37:15 The ¾” thick piston support holds the piston in position while the cylinder is installed over the piston & rings.  The ring compressor allows cylinder installation without snagging a ring.  With the studs gone, it’s easy to remove the ring compressor.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:38:01 On goes the cylinder.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:38:33 In the future, my projects will be a lot easier.  Being able to remove and install the cylinder head and cylinder with the engine still in the frame will save a bunch of time.  It will also allow me to lighten the load if I need to take the whole engine out of the frame.  I’m getting on in years and I can no longer lift the entire engine assembly.  I have been partially disassembling it to lighten things up.  Now, with the head and cylinder removed, it will be a lot lighter and there will be a lot more clearance.  All good.  My poor old back is a happy camper.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:39:06 This project wasn’t done yet.  Why not come up with a good tool for removing ALL of the cylinder-studs?  The tool in this picture will remove all four cylinder-studs and it does it a lot faster than the split-nut trick.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:39:40 The body of the stud remover is 5/8” aluminum bar stock.  It has left-hand and right-hand internal threads (like a turn buckle).  A left-hand bolt (M10x1.5x50mm) is used to jam the puller to the stud.  Once the puller is jammed to the stud, you can back the stud out by turning the jam-bolt counter-clockwise.   Super-easy, super-fast.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:40:31 It even works in the rabbit hole for the right-front stud.  The wrench is only used when you lock the tool with the jam-bolt.  Then remove the wrench and turn the jam-bolt counterclockwise to remove the stud.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:41:14 Here is a sketch of the puller body.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:41:49 The left-hand bolt is available on Amazon.  The first five threads must be filed down to permit the end of the bolt to pass into the 9mm portion of the threaded hole.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/05/21 at 15:42:45 Now I’m all set up to do several projects that involve removal of the cylinder head and cylinder.  Being able to remove the cylinder head and cylinder without total removal of the engine will make these projects a whole lot easier. I learned a lot from this project and ended up with a useful tool.  Mahalo to Niceast for the inspiration. I hope you find this report informative.  As always, I welcome your questions and comments.  It would be great to hear about other techniques used to work on the top end with the engine still nestled in the frame. Best regards, Mike

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by Hiko on 01/05/21 at 16:21:40 More great info Mike

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by Armen on 01/05/21 at 16:28:04 Excellent info Mike! BTW, I usually install a top end by putting the piston in the cylinder and lowering it onto the con rod, then inserting the wrist pin and pin clip. Is there enough room to do this? I find wrestling in one pin and one pin clip to be easier than three rings. I'm super lazy. I'll be making up a copy of your stud extractor as soon as I order a LH bolt. thanks! -Armen

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by niceast on 01/05/21 at 18:12:20 Wow super impressive. Like the hard work you put in. I missed the notification. I was researching anything "suzuki ls650" on youtube and come across a foreigner who was working on his bike. note: (the video is really long and in a different language). I find it to be very useful before I did my head gasket. It covers most of everything all in one video. The magic happens at 22:30. https://youtu.be/xspoYyxb3lE?t=1360 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xspoYyxb3lE[/media] I don't recommend it but if you want to make it easier to remove/install the cylinder head. I cut the passenger rear corner of the cylinder head's top fin for that extra 10mm clearance. I couldn't get the cyl-head off without this clearance. http://https://i.imgur.com/TLg7xMml.jpg

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by verslagen1 on 01/05/21 at 18:44:50 0D3E2129224C0 wrote: Excellent info Mike! BTW, I usually install a top end by putting the piston in the cylinder and lowering it onto the con rod, then inserting the wrist pin and pin clip. Is there enough room to do this? I find wrestling in one pin and one pin clip to be easier than three rings. I'm super lazy. I'll be making up a copy of your stud extractor as soon as I order a LH bolt. thanks! -Armen Yes, I did this in reverse when I didn't want to split the piston from the cylinder... didn't want to rehone. Nice job on the bolt extractor, I was thinking some like a coupling nut split on one side with a screw thru the side to clamp it on the bolt.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ohiomoto on 01/05/21 at 19:00:13 Bravo!

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by Armen on 01/05/21 at 20:33:16 Hey Mike, Is there a reason you made the stud puller only 57mm? Seems as though if it was a bit longer you could get and easier grab on it with a wrench. thanks -Armen

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/07/21 at 22:04:44 Armen, I'm pretty sure you will be able to use your technique to install the cylinder with piston but I assure you there's no wrestling involved when you use a ring compressor.  The jug glides right over those rings.  Regarding puller length, the LH jack-bolt is 50mm long so it dictated puller length. Niceast, thanks for the vid.  Sometimes I just can't see the forest for all the trees.  Never thought of simply pivoting the head around the tall stud.  Cool.  Sure wish I could understand what the guy is saying. Versy, it wouldn't surprise me if a coupling nut with a continuously threaded M9x1.25 bolt worked just as well as my LH rig. Thanks to all for the questions and comments.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by Hiko on 01/07/21 at 23:21:51 I have used a coupling nut with a an allen grubscrew inserted as a stud puller in the past The grubscrew allows a socket to be used on the coupling nut for extraction

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by Armen on 01/08/21 at 05:59:00 Thanks Mike! I just ordered bolts and taps and such for this project. Found a 10x1.5x60mm hex bolt, so I'll make the puller a little longer to be able to grab it easier. As far as installing the stud, I'll make another tool for that. Do you happen to have a measurement for how much the stud sits above the surface of the head? I'll make the install tool with a depth (at the 9mm end) that matches the stud protrusion, so that the tool will bottom out against the head when the stud is at the right height. Keep it coming! thanks, -Armen

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by niceast on 01/12/21 at 16:06:39 photo for reference rotating cylinder head clockwise about the tall rear passenger side stud (viewing from top). cutting the corner adds the required few mm to clear the frame. I don't know how the guy in the video removed the cylinder head with the corner clearance. http://https://i.imgur.com/iGLv2YJl.jpg http://https://i.imgur.com/TLg7xMml.jpg

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by Armen on 01/17/21 at 20:51:48 Hey Mike, This all begs the question-how about changing those studs to bolts?  Do you happen to have the length of the stuff that sticks out of the case? Save the stud extractor VooDoo. Just wrench the bolts out. Seems like if you switch to something common, like 10MM studs, it shouldn't be too hard to find (or make) bolts. Waddayatink? thanks

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 01/17/21 at 23:04:57 Niceast that markup is sweet.  Tells the whole story.  Thanks Armen, each stud is a different length.  They are also special reduced body, constant strength studs.  They are very long and you have to stretch them a bunch to achieve proper stress.  Nut rotation is a bit different for each stud because the stress vs stretch is based on the effective length of the stud.  Torque would also be tricky.  The torque is based on friction between the internal and external threads plus the friction between the underside of the nut, the copper washer, and the cylinder head spot face.  The threads are steel on steel.  Switch to aluminum on steel and the friction changes.  Even with the factory studs it's still tricky to get the fasteners stressed properly. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1576269113/12#12 Bolts would be a nightmare.   The tool works great and it's easy to use, and I'm betting that a coupling nut with M9 x 1.25 threads straight through might work just as good.  The LH thread setup is probably overkill.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by Armen on 03/02/21 at 18:29:17 Woof! So, I decided to sorta copy your idea and make a stud removal tool for an Airhead BMW. The Beemer uses a 10x1.5mm stud. I bought a length of aluminum hex stock, a 10x1.5 LH tap, and a LH hex bolt. Cut a piece of aluminum to about 60mm, tapped one end RH and the other end LH. Put the giz on the stud, snugged up the LH bolt, and then cranked on it real hard with a wrench. The remover unscrewed itself from the stud. Tried every possible way of holding the giz, tightening the bolt, and no matter what, the whole mess unscrewed from the stud. I'm wondering whey yours worked so much better? is it because the thread pitch is different between the extractor bolt and the stud? Maybe. So, now what? Maybe I get a 12x1.75 LH tap and bolt? Waddayatink? thanks

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 03/03/21 at 10:54:34 Have you ever removed one of the BMW studs?  In general, are they difficult to remove? Are the BMW studs a class 5 interference fit, or set with anaerobic sealant? I used the 1.5 pitch LH bolt because it was available, but I have to admit the difference in pitch worked in my favor.  For a given amount of rotation, the bolt advances toward the stud faster than the body backs off the stud.  I was pleasantly surprised when I found that 1.5 pitch bolt. Seemed perfect, like a match made in heaven. Just about any method of stud removal relies on friction (double nut, threaded collet, vice grips).  Are the threads nice and clean, free of any oil, anti-seize, grease, etc.?  If the studs are set with anaerobic sealant, your screwed.  Same goes for a class 5 fit. Have you tried splitting a nut like I described at the first part of this post?  I'm very curious how difficult the BMW studs are to remove (normally).  The LS studs are fairly easy to get out.  I suspect an older bike that has years of corrosion built up around the studs (Especially the right-rear since it's exposed to the atmosphere.  Naturally, the one you really need to get out.) might prove to be a real challenge. So the burning question is.......why in the world are you trying to remove the studs with the cylinder head in place????  The BMW doesn't have anything in the way that would prevent simply removing the nuts and pulling the head straight off. :o

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by Armen on 03/03/21 at 17:03:17 Mike, So, heres the gag: First time I yanked one of the BMW studs was in the 70's, and it came out very easily. Recently I've done a few of the later bikes, and the studs were insano tough to get out. Last one I did I had the head off, and thoroughly destroyed the stud trying to remove it. If they are using thread sealant, I don't see it on the threads. If it was a tight thread fit (BMW liked to do that), heat and double nut should have worked. I've had other reasons in the past for removing the studs. This time, I was trying to swap out the rusty nasty stud/washer/nut for nice stainless ones. Made the studs. Easy enough. Got a stick of stainless threaded rod and cut to size. Cleaned up the ends. I'd like to be able to do this without pulling the head. The top and bottom studs are the ones out in the breeze getting rusty and nasty. I thought I'd use your scheme and remove the stud in place. I had a spare cylinder, so it was easy to try your gizmo. One side came out easily, the other side NG. No amount of tightening the tool, bolt, Kroil, heat, hitting it, whatever got the stud to turn. All that happened was the tool unscrewed. Double nut was equally worthless. Thats when I stepped back and realized that I had used the same pitch (1.50) for the remover as was on the stud. Scratched my head a bit and realized that was the problem. Of course, by that point I had bought two 10x1.5 LH taps, as well as an assortment of 10x1.5 LH bolts. So, I thought I'd go to 12x1.75 LH. Oh boy howdy does that oddball metric stuff get expensive! Had an attack of common sense and realized that inch thread stuff would be cheaper. 1/2x13 is around the same as 12x2mm. Even better! So, I just ordered a 1/2-13 LH tap and will chase down some LH bolts. I'll let you know how it works. In the meantime, I guess I can make the puller you described for the Savage, as well as one for an 8x1.25 for good luck. Thanks again for sharing your wisdom!

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by Armen on 03/08/21 at 20:17:32 So, I got the 1/2-13 LH taps and bolt. Redid the coupling nut with the 1/2-13 goods, and.... crap. Wouldn't loosen the stud. No matter what i tried, the coupling nut just loosens off the stud. Finally held the coupling nut from loosening and put an impact gun on the LH bolt Coupling nut broke. Another few doses of Kroil, double nut, and the stud came out. Not sure what I learned except that DBM is better at this than me :-) Not I'm thinking about getting a set of case studs and TIG welding the nuts on. Turn them into long bolts. Use a torque wrench on top of a torque angle gauge and read how much rotation equals the specified torque. Then treat the welded up stud/nut combo as a bolt, tighten using a torque angle gauge. The plot thickens.....

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by Dave on 03/13/21 at 04:43:35 I was half asleep the other night - and my mind wandered to the "double nut" method of removing a stud. There has been a time or two where the 2 nuts just would not grip tight enough to get the stud out. So.....would there be additional clamping force if you used 3 or 4 nuts?  I realize that sometimes there may not be room - but my thought is that the clamping force would double if you used 3 nuts rather than 2.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/13/21 at 15:12:58 Don't forget red loktite

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 03/14/21 at 18:33:51 Dave, since all of the typical methods rely on friction, I suspect stacking additional nuts would probably improve the bite.  Each additional nut increases the length of engagement between internal and external threads.  More engagement equals more friction.   If you stacked three nuts,  would probably be best to jam the middle nut against the top nut, and then jam the bottom nut against the middle nut.  Turn the bottom nut to remove the stud.  I haven't seen many applications that are generous enough with thread protrusion to allow three nuts.  But it would be useful in those instances where the head has been removed. JOG, Loctite might be a good option too.  Clean the threads.  Then apply primer.  Then install the pulling device with the Loctite (262, 271 or 272) on the threads and fully tighten the pulling device.  Let the mess set up for a day or two.  Then, pull the stud.  If you are lucky and the stud comes out, use a propane torch to heat up the pulling tool so that it can be removed from the stud. Sounds to me like Armen had an especially tight stud, or it was corroded, or set with thread sealant.  I'm glad he was able to get it out.  Armen, I'm confident that your skills are a notch or two better than mine.  You simply had a case of stuck-stud. :o

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/15/21 at 10:37:44 I've used the double nut idea ,win some lose some, so I thought some loktite  in the mix might help.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by jd290 on 03/15/21 at 14:41:37 Just as an FYI, I was able to remove the cylinder head recently by removing all of the engine to frame mounting bolts except the bottom rear. (Just loosen that one to use as a pivot) Once you have done this, loosen the drive belt adjuster nuts/bolts and the engine will tilt forward giving you enough room to remove head. It's a lot of work. You will have to support the bike with jacks because the kickstand has to be removed in order to remove one of the bottom engine mount bolts.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by LPHRN on 10/03/22 at 16:44:16 I find myself reading this thread because one of my cylinder head cover bolts stripped out some of the threads at 80 inch pounds. It is the bolt on the far right side just ahead of the camshaft, 125mm long.  It goes through the head cover and head, and threads into the cylinder.  Nine threads still remain down there. These pullers are quite ingenious, but maybe someone has had this problem before.  What did you do to fix it? Here is what I have tried so far: I am trying to get another 130mm bolt from Suzuki (the mate to this bolt behind the camshaft is 130mm) maybe even 135. I bought some 6mm all thread, but it doesn't want to screw into the remaining threads.  I tried running a die down it, but I suspect it is a rolled thread/cut thread problem. I am considering doing myself bodily harm. Other than the BH part, does anyone have any good suggestions? Please advise.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/03/22 at 17:13:59 How deep can you run a bolt into it?

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by LPHRN on 10/03/22 at 17:35:34 With the cylinder cover off, I can run the original bolt down 9 1/2 turns.  I think that might be enough to hold the cover on if I use a longer bolt. The all-thread wouldn't go in beyond 2 turns though, for some reason.  I suspect it is the shape of the threads.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 10/03/22 at 18:09:10 You can repair the front-right head cover bolt, and mid-right head cover bolt by drilling through and installing a 1/4-20 grade 8 bolt with a grade 8 nut.  It can be done without removing the engine from the frame.  Do not attempt to do this on the rear-right head cover bolt.  That requires cylinder head removal because the rear-right head cover bolt hole also serves as an oil passage. This shows a repair of the mid-right bolt.  Just drill straight through with a 1/4 inch bit.  These long bits are readily available at any decent hardware store.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 10/03/22 at 18:10:58 When the bolt and nut are installed, it looks fine and can be tightened up without fear of pulling the guts out.  The grade 8 fasteners can really take the stress.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 10/03/22 at 18:13:26 You might have to do a bit of grinding on the cylinder to get the nut in place, but its minimal.  I love this repair.  I actually do it to all my builds now.  It's way more robust than the stock setup.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by LPHRN on 10/04/22 at 02:32:48 This is definitely an option.  I appreciate your response.  (Also glad to know mine is not the first to have this issue.)  It does certainly look stronger.   Do you use the same torque setting on this bolt?  I see your remark that the bolt can take the stress.  Just worried about distorting something else by having this bolt torqued differently. Thanks for this idea!

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 10/05/22 at 20:07:26 It will easily handle the factory service manual spec of 6 - 8.5 ft-lbs.  On the 1/4" grade 8 bolts, I go past that a bit.  A 1/4 inch grade 8 bolt should be torqued to about 9 ft-lbs with lubricant, 10 ft-lbs zinc plated, or 12 ft-lbs plain & dry.  The torque wrench is essentially a way to measure the friction in the fastening system.  Lube the threads and you use less torque because there is less friction. Note: zinc plating is considered a form of lubrication. The weak link in this system is the aluminum internal threads.  IMO, the aluminum threads give up over time.  The cyclic stress resulting from thermal expansion keeps working at the aluminum threads and eventually they crap out.  Of course, they can also fail if the bolt is overtightened, but a correctly designed fastening system will fail on the bolt, not the internal threads.  That's why whenever a steel bolt is used in an aluminum component, there's like at least double the length of engagement.  I suspect the Suzuki design department has an army of engineers that stay busy all day long doin fastener calcs.  I'm willing to bet they got the design right.  But as I mentioned, over time, the constant increase/decrease in stress as the cylinder and head heat up and cool down fatigues the aluminum internal threads.  Keep in mind that when the stress is highest, the assembly is also hottest.  The yield strength of aluminum tanks at a pretty low temp. Drill through and put a nut on the bottom and now you no longer have any aluminum threads to worry about.  Even though the length of thread engagement is only about one-fourth of the original design, the grade-eight steel is so much stronger than the cast aluminum that the reduced engagement does not compromise strength.  An additional bonus is if there is a fastener failure, it will be the bolt.  Install a new nut and bolt, rock-n-roll.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by TheSneeze on 10/05/22 at 21:26:54 I am so doing this to my hot rod motor!  Thanks once again, DBM!

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/06/22 at 11:04:18 With the years of feeling bolts come to their clamping force, I prefer that over a torque wrench in places other than heads and things that have to not leak under pressure. In this case, the fact that a book said X inch pounds of torque gave him a target Other than the feel of a bolt coming tight. With a thumb on the head of a 1/4" ratchet and using fingers closing to move the ratchet, you can Feel rotation that isn't matched by an increased resistance, which IS what the very first split second of failed threads does. It's possible to Stop there and get away with it. Knowing the next time you have to go in there, you are gonna hafta address that.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 10/06/22 at 15:08:32 Sneezy, your motor is apart right now.  You should do the right-rear bolt hole too.  It will require a spotface on the bottom of the cylinder, a notch in the fin just below the bolt, and an acorn nut.  Since you have it all apart you will be able to clean out the oil passage.  I will try and do a post that provides the gory details.  It's easy to do.  You end up with something like this.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by TheSneeze on 10/06/22 at 15:35:10 8-)

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by LPHRN on 10/08/22 at 15:51:17 Okay, DBM, I did  it. Glad I did, too!  I kept trying to think of someway to salvage the original design.  Finally bit the bullet and drilled it out. Now that I see the other pix, I might do the front one too. Thanks for posting this, my bike is back on the road, and I am finally getting to enjoy it!

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ThumperPaul on 11/23/23 at 14:40:09 6B6D621E1C1B1F2F0 wrote: Now the special spilt-nut can be threaded onto the stud.  Vicegrip pliers can be used to pinch the nut on the stud and back the stud out.  This assumes that the stud wasn’t set with red Loctite, in which case you’re screwed. Removing the right-rear stud using the split nut is a slow process.  It takes patience, but it works OK. Great work as usual, Mike.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge!!  I read thru the entire process.  When I got to the part "set with red Loctite, in which case you're screwed", I realized I'd be the "you're screwed" person.  I am Murphy's Law.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ThumperPaul on 12/07/23 at 08:41:00 Mike, how do you reinstall the the studs through the head to the correct torque?  The tool (cut nut, or puller) doesn't seem like it would work. You also mentioned in my post to remove the oil that somehow accumulated in the stud holes before reinstalling the studs.  I'm trying to understand how 1) oil gets in there and 2) how I'm going to get those studs back in there and torqued correctly.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/07/23 at 15:33:36 Paul, you don't torque the studs when you reinstall them.  You simply screw them in until the shoulder hits the engine case.  Should take a little over 15 turns. Each stud has a top and a bottom.  You can identify the bottom by the shoulder on the body of the stud.  Below the shoulder there should be about 16 threads.  You want all of those threads engaged into the aluminum case to achieve adequate strength. This is the bottom of a stud.  See the shoulder just above the threads?

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/07/23 at 15:35:38 The top of the stud doesn't have a shoulder.  It only has a fillet (radius). This is the top of a stud.  See the fillet (radius).  You want this end of the stud sticking out of the cylinder head.  If you can see that fillet, then the stud is not in all the way.  As I previously mentioned, it should take at least 15 turns to screw the stud all the way in.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/07/23 at 15:40:11 Oil migrates into three of the stud holes, right-front, left-rear, and left-front.   The right-front stud and left-rear stud have dowels that are situated around the stud.  The dowel hole reduces the sealing surface between the dowel hole and the bore in the engine case.  There is almost no sealing surface, so oil migrates across the gasket and collects in the stud hole. See how narrow the sealing surface is.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/07/23 at 15:41:59 The left-front stud hole is also utilized as an oil drain.  Oil from the cylinder head drains back to the crankcase via the left-front stud hole.  As such, the stud hole fills with oil.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/07/23 at 15:56:53 Ironically, the right-rear stud is the only stud that terminates within the confines of the engine.  The right-rear head nut is inside the head cover, so it is continuously bathed in oil.  The copper washer under the head nut should seal that off and prevent oil from leaking into the stud hole.  But the right-rear stud is also exposed to atmosphere via an opening in the back of the cylinder.  You can actually see the right rear stud if you look at the back of the cylinder. Since the right-rear stud is exposed to atmosphere, it is also exposed to weather, and pressure washers, and garden hoses, etc.  I never wash my bike, I give it a sponge bath from time to time (not nearly enough but it's not a beauty queen, it's a test lab). So, your concern on the right-rear stud is water.  It will be wise to also suck that stud hole out before reinstalling the studs. There is no guarantee that you will be able to remove the two rear studs.  If they are super-stuck in their stud holes from corrosion or Loctite or some other sealant, you won't be able to break them loose.  If that's the case, you won't be any worse off.  You will have to pull the whole motor.  But if you can get them out using the split nut method, I think it will make the job easier for you.  I prefer working on the top end with the engine in the frame.  It's very stable and there's plenty of access to everything.  Out on the bench you need an engine stand, and the darned thing is heavy and tall.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ThumperPaul on 12/07/23 at 17:28:31 Thank you, Mike!  I obviously didn’t realize the studs don’t get torqued but can get stuck in there as bad as if they were torqued!  I sincerely appreciate your time in helping a knob like me!!  And given my bad back, I would also prefer to try doing this with the motor in the frame.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by Dave on 12/07/23 at 20:01:20 1D1B14686A6D69590 wrote:  But the right-rear stud is also exposed to atmosphere via an opening in the back of the cylinder.  You can actually see the right rear stud if you look at the back of the cylinder. Since the right-rear stud is exposed to atmosphere, it is also exposed to weather, and pressure washers, and garden hoses, etc. So, your concern on the right-rear stud is water.  It will be wise to also suck that stud hole out before reinstalling the studs. I have cleaned/pressure washed an old engine to get the gunk off prior to taking it apart.  I got it washed and used an electric bike blow drier to get the water out of the fins and other parts.  The engine was moved into the garage and up on my work bench.  It was about a week later when I finally got it apart and removed the head and cylinder.  Even after a week of being up on my work bench, there was still water down in the void around the right rear cylinder stud? I do wash my bike frequently.....I love a clean bike!  However - I never put my bike away wet after washing.  Not only does the right rear stud hold water - the top of the cylinder head, wiring and connectors all can stay wet for long periods of time if you just wash the bike and shove it into the garage and shut the door.  I always take my bike on a ride after washing and get it up to operating temperature and up to speed to dry things out. The right rear stud can also be an issue with an oil leak if you don't get the copper washer/nut sealed.  One of our members developed a leak there after he re-torqued the head as Suzuki recommends.....on this forum we don't recommend that or believe it is necessary on the Savage - if you do a good job on the first torque it isn't necessary to go back and do it over later.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 16:58:53 Hard to beat a pristine bike Dave, and yours always fits the bill.  It's too darned pretty to leave dirty.  Sounds like your dry-up regimen gets the job done. I thought it would be fun to see how easy it would be to throw together a super-simple stud remover.  I heard mention of coupling nuts, so I decided to explore that. Turns out M9 x 1.25 coupling nuts are unobtanium.  But howsabout M8 x 1.25 coupling nuts.  Same pitch, might be helpful.  These are M8 x 1.25 coupling nuts.  They cost $2.79 a copy.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 16:59:33 They are 24mm long.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 17:02:52 So, if I were to drill and tap one side of the coupling nut M9 x 1.25, I could use a M8 x 1.25 socket head screw in the other half of the nut to jam against the stud. The tap drill for M9 x 1.25 is 5/16".  Mark the drill with some tape so I know when it's gone in about 12mm (half the coupling nut).

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 17:03:25 Grab the coupling nut in a vice.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 17:08:37 Drill to a depth of 12mm.  Gotta keep the drill straight.  If you really want to do a nice job, drill in small increments.  For instance, start with a 9/32" drill, then increase drill size to 19/64", then finish up with 5/16".  I just went right off with a 5/16".  Worked good but not perfect.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 17:11:03 Use a M9 x 1.25 tap.  These Irwin taps are cheap and readily available.  Amazon, ebay, etc.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 17:12:20 Cut the threads.  When the tap hits the M8 threads at the half-way point, stop, don't force it.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 17:13:08 Then chase the other side with a M8 x 1.25 to remove any burrs.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 17:17:54 Now you have a stud remover.  The coupling nut will thread on to the stud at least 9mm, which should give you enough engagement to handle a pretty good load from tightening a jam bolt.  It should also provide enough thread engagement to develop the friction required turn the stud.  A M8 x 1.25 socket head cap bolt about 15mm to 20mm long will work fine as a jam bolt.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 17:18:45 It looks like it will fit nicely on the right-rear stud.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 17:19:17 Left-rear looks good too.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 17:20:31 I tightened it up to jam the tool on a stud, then marked it.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 17:21:33 Gave the old vice the super squeeze using a cheater bar.  Wanted to have a good bite on the stud.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 17:25:00 When I tried to break the tool loose, the whole stud turned in the vice.  The marks on the coupling nut and stud stayed in alignment.  That seemed impressive, but when I set up some tools to make sure the stud couldn't rotate, the removal tool broke loose at about 120 inch-lbs.  That's not too impressive but I suspect it should be good enough.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/08/23 at 17:26:55 There ya go, a quick & dirty tool for just a few bucks.   Go for it Paul.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ThumperPaul on 12/08/23 at 17:37:07 Thanks Mike!  I really appreciate your help!!  I need to see if I can replicate this gadget.  I'm waiting on parts and for my mechanic friend to get some time, so it may be the new year before we go for it.  Now's a good time for me to see if I can replicate your extractor!   I was just reading your cam comparison article.  I'm amazed by your work!! Thanks again!

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ThumperPaul on 12/09/23 at 07:00:13 Mike, I’m finding M8-1.25 coupling nuts on Amazon in varying lengths including the 24mm length you used (all are stainless steel).  The 24mm looks like a good length from your pictures.  There are 40mm available and I'm ondering if that would be too long to work (since working under the frame while the motor is still in the bike).  Any thoughts on that?  Any benefit to making a longer version (like 40mm)? And what the heck is wrong with Suzuki!?  Why the heck a M9-1.25P?  You can find M8 and M10 common stuff everywhere!

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/09/23 at 10:46:03 Paul, the longer coupling nuts will be fine, but the stainless steel is hard to drill & tap.  I think you would be better off using regular steel coupling nuts.  The longer lengths are fine and will allow better access for your wrenches. If I can get the coupling nuts all the way out here in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, you can certainly find some in Houston.  Try Googling "fastener supply near me".  I found a bunch in Houston.  These are just a few. Bayou Fastener & Supply Bayou City Bolt Northwest Fastener Dale Fastener Supply I got mine from a local hardware store called City Mill.  They have a decent selection of fasteners, better than outfits like Home Depot or Lowes, but not as good as what you should have in TX given all the industry in your area. Regarding 8mm vs 9mm.  The OEM used the 9mm studs for strength.  It was probably the largest fastener they could fit into the design, taking into consideration wall thickness of the threaded holes in the case.  The designers needed to come up with a fastener that could be safely stressed to a level that is sufficient to restrain the cylinder head during the power stroke.  The pressure is extreme and applied over a large area.  That pressure is trying to blow the head right off.  The combined force applied by the studs must exceed the force resulting from combustion pressure, and there must be a reasonable factor of safety (probably 200%).  Those studs are special.  They are a reduced-body constant-strength design with nice fillets on each end.  I'm sure they are top-grade alloy steel.  Don't nick them or chew them up in any way.  Don't grab them with vice grips, or file on them.  Note that when I grabbed the stud in my vice, I had aluminum in the jaws to keep from chewing up the stud.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ThumperPaul on 12/09/23 at 11:19:06 Thanks Mike.  I can find M8 and M10 all day long no problem.  I was really interested in your thoughts on 40mm vs 24mm length and the 40mm still being able to work (fit) under the frame without having obstruction of the ratchet (or wrench).   I did reach out to a local custom fastener supply store to see if they have a M9-1.25P coupling nut anywhere from 24-40mm length.  This would spare us the fun of drilling and tapping out an M8 into an M9 on one end.  Then just buy a M9-1.25 socket jab bolt about 15-20mm long to go with it. Of course, my tap and dye set conveniently omits anything M9.  Suzuki should have found room for a measly 1mm and installed M10s!! Rant over!

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/09/23 at 19:05:45 Paul, it dawned on me that you could use a 5/16-18 coupling nut.  It would work fine.  Just drill & tap one side for the M9 x 1.25 stud, and use a 5/16-18 socket head bolt for the jam bolt.  Should work just fine, and the SAE coupling nut should be a lot easier to find than the metric.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ThumperPaul on 12/09/23 at 20:38:32 If I can’t find a M9-1.25 coupling nut, I’ll tap out a one of the more available whether it’s M8 or some SAE size.  I’m going to see if this local fastener company has a M9 before I start fabricating it. Thanks for all your help and ideas!!

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by Dave on 12/10/23 at 03:00:51 I have removed the cylinder studs on 2 engines for shipping. The crankcase is far easier to ship without those studs sticking out! One one engine I was able to double nut the studs and get them out without much issue. On the other engine it was a battle and double nuts did nothing to turn the stud out....when you put a wrench on the bottom nut and started to turn with force the nut would turn rather than the stud.  I believe I had to stack 3 or 4 together before I could get the stubborn studs out.  Put a long handle box end wrench on the stud prior to stacking up the nuts.....you don't want to use an open end wrench on the bottom nut.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ThumperPaul on 12/10/23 at 06:09:43 Dave, you were obviously working with the engine out of the frame.  Were you pulling the studs with the head already removed (I’m guessing yes).  With the head still on, it doesn’t sound like there is enough stud sticking out to get 1 double nut on there (much less 2-3 nuts).  And getting a box end in there ain’t gunna happen with the head on and motor in the frame. I’m still going to try to find an M9-1.25P coupling nut 24-40mm long.  I’d like to avoid doing the tap and dye of a suitably different sized coupler.  I don’t have a M9-1.25P tap (I’ve got an M8 and M10 and other sizes, but no 9-iron) so I’d have to buy that (and then probably never use it again).  Adding to my collection of tools that I only needed to use 1 time. Another possibility, using the double-nut idea would be to find a M9-1.25P nut with a smaller head.  It would butt down on the existing head nut, but allow you to get a deep well socket over it and only grab the bigger M9 head nut underneath.  Worth a look and try.  My concern with this, if such a smaller-headed M9 nut exists, would be its strength given the lesser amount of nut material (thinner from threads to hex outside size).

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by Dave on 12/10/23 at 10:41:33 4F736E766B7E694B7A6E771B0 wrote: Dave, you were obviously working with the engine out of the frame.  Were you pulling the studs with the head already removed (I’m guessing yes).  With the head still on, it doesn’t sound like there is enough stud sticking out to get 1 double nut on there (much less 2-3 nuts).  And getting a box end in there ain’t gunna happen with the head on and motor in the frame. Ooops.......yep!  The engine was out of the frame, the head and cylinder were off - silly me!

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ThumperPaul on 12/10/23 at 11:06:36 It is still good to know!  Just making sure I’m wrapping my head around this correctly!  Removing at least the 2 rear studs through the head with the motor still in the frame isn’t going to be fun!  Mike makes everything sound easy!

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ThumperPaul on 12/12/23 at 07:47:16 5E58572B292E2A1A0 wrote: When I tried to break the tool loose, the whole stud turned in the vice.  The marks on the coupling nut and stud stayed in alignment.  That seemed impressive, but when I set up some tools to make sure the stud couldn't rotate, the removal tool broke loose at about 120 inch-lbs.  That's not too impressive but I suspect it should be good enough. Mike, when you jab the bolt in the coupler I'm guessing you do that really tight forced against the stud.  To turn the stud out, are you using a wrench on the hex coupler to back it out counter-clockwise?  I'm trying to wrap my head around how this works without the jab bolt being reverse threaded.  How does it maintain tension?  Or does the stud just need to be broken loose with the coupler tool and then you can finger out the stud the rest of the way?

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/12/23 at 12:18:04 It relies solely on the friction developed in the threads, similar to the double nut method.  Since it relies on friction, you don't want any oil on the threads of either the stud or the coupling nut, and you want as much thread engagement as possible (more threads = more friction, at least 9mm).  You jam the cap screw down onto the end of the stud, which loads up all the threads.  Make it as tight as you can (within reason).  To remove the stud, I turn the coupling nut.  As previously mentioned, as long as the stud is not set with Loctite or corroded, it will probably work.  If it doesn't, you aren't any worse off.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ThumperPaul on 12/12/23 at 14:11:51 Thanks Mike.  Once it breaks free by turning the coupler (hopefully!), I imagine it turns more easily - like… can you finger turn it out once it’s broken free?  Sorry for all the ignorant newbie questions.  Just trying to get a sense of what I might expect.  Obviously, I’m a bit nervous and anxious!  Trying to study and learn as much as I can to gain some confidence!

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ThumperPaul on 12/13/23 at 12:33:39 41474834363135050 wrote: So, if I were to drill and tap one side of the coupling nut M9 x 1.25, I could use a M8 x 1.25 socket head screw in the other half of the nut to jam against the stud. The tap drill for M9 x 1.25 is 5/16".  Mark the drill with some tape so I know when it's gone in about 12mm (half the coupling nut). DBM - I'm guessing the 5/16" drill bit glides right through the 8mm threads and shears the outer threads.  Since 5/16" = 7.94mm and < 8mm. I've bought the 8mm/24mm long coupler.  I'm waiting for the M9-1.25P tap to arrive from Amazon.  It includes a 7.8mm carbide drill bit.  That bit is really going to glide right thru the 8mm threads (and its probably a bad idea to try to waller it out)???  I do have a 5/16" drill bit if I should use that instead of the 7.8mm. I'm "struggling to grasp" it there will be deep enough threads after tapping out an 8mm to 9mm with either 5/16" or 7.8mm (both are smaller than 8mm). And like you, I searched the world over for a 9mm coupler with none to be found.  I have one more custom place I need to check out.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by DragBikeMike on 12/13/23 at 17:21:56 You will be fine using the 7.8mm drill.  The thread pitch in the coupling is the same as the tap, so any remaining threads after the drilling operation will help get the tap started and guide it as it cuts the 9mm threads.  The hardest part will be keeping the tap straight until it gets a good start. Yes, you do not want to "waller it out" with the drill.  Just run the drill into the coupling about half-way, and keep it straight.  As previously mentioned, it might be helpful to drill in small increments.  Then tap the threads.  Hope you have a tap handle.  It will be very difficult to keep the tap straight if you are using a crescent wrench.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ThumperPaul on 12/13/23 at 18:18:48 Thanks for the assurance, Mike.  I have a tap handle and bench vise.  I just need my old hands to be steady and not cut crooked sloppy threads.

Title: Re: Removing the Cylinder Head with Engine in Fram Post by ThumperPaul on 12/24/23 at 11:01:25 484E413D3F383C0C0 wrote: Once the rear studs are out, there’s enough room to remove the cylinder head.  The rear chain guide makes things a bit clumsy.  I suggest you remove the rear chain guide before attempting to lift the head off. Getting the head off with or without the rear cam chain guide in place sounds like a challenge either way you do it.

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