Donate!
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register :: View Members
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 7 8 
Send Topic Print
Breather Blues (Read 1184 times)
Armen
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Half-Witted
Wrench-Jockey from
Jersey

Posts: 1168

Re: Breather Blues
Reply #90 - 02/13/20 at 18:24:02
 
TO be clear, the bike needs a crank vent with a one way valve. Air out, not in.
Back to top
 
 

In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren't...
  IP Logged
Mavigogun
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

We roll farther
together

Posts: 586
Progressive Texas
Re: Breather Blues
Reply #91 - 02/14/20 at 05:32:16
 
oldNslow wrote on 02/13/20 at 16:03:14:
It's been illegal for the manufacturers of ICE vehicles to vent crankcase emissions into the atmosphere for a pretty long while.


I see.   So all these cafe racer and bobbers that open up the frame by removing the airbox are, essentially, no different than diesel trucks modded to “blow coal”- ‘screw everybody else, I’m a loud-proud part of the problem’?    All that oil that that I “burn up” driving the bike at high speed is essentially no different.   So while there are all these modifications I might undertake to “improve performance” for my own pleasure, ultimately they come at a cost distributed to everybody.

I reckon I need to either find satisfaction operating the machine within it’s designed range, or find another bike.
Back to top
 
 

2007 LS650 s40, presently being rebuilt
  IP Logged
oldNslow
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 2475
Rochester, NY
Gender: male
Re: Breather Blues
Reply #92 - 02/14/20 at 07:17:36
 
Mavigogun wrote on 02/14/20 at 05:32:16:
oldNslow wrote on 02/13/20 at 16:03:14:
It's been illegal for the manufacturers of ICE vehicles to vent crankcase emissions into the atmosphere for a pretty long while.


I see.   So all these cafe racer and bobbers that open up the frame by removing the airbox are, essentially, no different than diesel trucks modded to “blow coal”- ‘screw everybody else, I’m a loud-proud part of the problem’?    All that oil that that I “burn up” driving the bike at high speed is essentially no different.   So while there are all these modifications I might undertake to “improve performance” for my own pleasure, ultimately they come at a cost distributed to everybody.

I reckon I need to either find satisfaction operating the machine within it’s designed range, or find another bike.


You can do pretty much whatever you want. Motorcycles are still mostly under the emissions compliance radar for the time being, as far as the end user is concerned.

Manufacturers who build and offer NEW bikes for sale don't have that luxury.

No need to get all riled up. I was just answering your question regarding why I think Suzuki engineered the Savage crankcase vent the way they did. . Roll Eyes
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Mavigogun
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

We roll farther
together

Posts: 586
Progressive Texas
Re: Breather Blues
Reply #93 - 02/14/20 at 07:53:05
 
oldNslow wrote on 02/14/20 at 07:17:36:
No need to get all riled up. I was just answering your question.


It was a good answer, leading to questions I hadn't been asking myself.

In Texas, where I live, sex with animals is legal- one may "do pretty much whatever you want"; what we should do for ourselves, our community, and our environment often diverges from what we can do.   The Republic of Texas once made slavery legal, entered a civil war over it- placing those who favored can in direct conflict with those choosing should.  

Don't entirely loose faith in humanity, though- only a fraction of Texans chose, through force or willfull blindness, to steal the lives of fellow human beings.   I reckon we are afforded some insight into those historic choices now, with the consequences of headless pollution being so ever-present and demonstrable.

The question is not who we are when society imposes order, but who we choose to be at liberty.

Back to top
 
 

2007 LS650 s40, presently being rebuilt
  IP Logged
Armen
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Half-Witted
Wrench-Jockey from
Jersey

Posts: 1168

Re: Breather Blues
Reply #94 - 02/14/20 at 08:16:10
 
Mavigonon,
I'd bet that all the bikes on this forum pollute less than one pickup rolling coal.
If you think about the breather discussion, you'll understand that using a proper crank vent valve system pretty much eliminates the crank fumes going out into the atmosphere.
I'm with you on the loud pipes and crazy badly jetted machines belching smoke, and making a ton of noise.
Quite often I'll work on a bike that was rejected and only gets 30MPG. Makes me crazy to see machines set up so bad, waste gas, and pollute the air. A bit of work and many times I've picked up 10+MPG with only some work.
Also, understand that routing the crank fumes in to the airbox doesn't mean that they get completely burned up. Hard to get oil to burn that cleanly. I'd recon at full chat, a Savage with the standard breather is putting out more pollution than at lower revs. So, with a proper crank vent/valve/bereather, the bikes are probably cleaner than stock.
Hope that makes you feel better about this.
Back to top
 
 

In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren't...
  IP Logged
Mavigogun
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

We roll farther
together

Posts: 586
Progressive Texas
Re: Breather Blues
Reply #95 - 02/14/20 at 09:07:06
 
As ever, Armen, what you return to discourse is thoughtful, considerate.  

I appreciate the demonstrated reduction in oil uptake- but what of the other crankcase vapors?   Isn't the very difference in crankcase pressure that reduces oil aerosolization indicative of escaping gasses?   I suspect engineers at Suzuki would have favored the solution, were it one- though factors other than effectiveness may have been at play.

So, how can we return the blow-by vapors emitted by auxiliary crankcase breather to the carb while retaining the pressure circumstance it creates, and reduced oil consumption?  

Alternatively, my after-market exhaust is hot enough to ignite unburnt gasses- might we introduce the crank case vapors into a combustion chamber affixed to the exhaust?

Apparently, this strategy is employed by automobile racers- while perhaps not directly useful for our application, some examples from Summit Racing may be found here:

https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/crankcase-evacuation-systems

Some caution is made for systems shedding oil and the risk of oil collecting in a muffler.

I also appreciate the net impact of proper tuning and maintenance; it may be that heeding proper tire pressure alone might result in greater impact on net emissions than some contrivances; of course, it ain't an either-or- impacts are cumulative.    Maybe we can patch all the holes in the hull without resorting to transformative extremes, sealing over the deck, and being left with a submarine instead of a sailboat.
Back to top
 
 

2007 LS650 s40, presently being rebuilt
  IP Logged
Mavigogun
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

We roll farther
together

Posts: 586
Progressive Texas
Re: Breather Blues
Reply #96 - 02/14/20 at 10:39:34
 
oldNslow wrote on 02/14/20 at 07:17:36:
You can do pretty much whatever you want. Motorcycles are still mostly under the emissions compliance radar for the time being, as far as the end user is concerned.

I discovered the legality under Federal statute depends on circumstance and use.  A summation:

"According to the 2004 EPA rules, a rider can own a bike built from parts by themselves or others called a 'Kit Bike,' which is exempt from EPA emissions requirements.  The owner can legally ride the non-emissions-compliant machine as much as they want.  However, the catch is that every rider is entitled to only one Kit Bike for unlimited use in their lifetime.  A rider can own more than one Kit Bike, but the mileage on these other bikes is restricted.

"'Custom Motorcycles' are also provided an exemption.  A person can own multiple custom motorcycles, but they must be labeled as such.  Further, these bikes can only be ridden to and from bike shows.  The owner must attach a label to the frame that reads, 'This motorcycle is exempt from EPA emissions requirements. Its use on public roads is limited pursuant to CFR 86.497-78(c).'

So, Federal emissions regulations do and don't apply to us- kinda like a stop light... when red.  
Back to top
 
 

2007 LS650 s40, presently being rebuilt
  IP Logged
oldNslow
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 2475
Rochester, NY
Gender: male
Re: Breather Blues
Reply #97 - 02/14/20 at 11:22:39
 
Mavigogun wrote on 02/14/20 at 10:39:34:
oldNslow wrote on 02/14/20 at 07:17:36:
You can do pretty much whatever you want. Motorcycles are still mostly under the emissions compliance radar for the time being, as far as the end user is concerned.

I discovered the legality under Federal statute depends on circumstance and use.  A summation:

"According to the 2004 EPA rules, a rider can own a bike built from parts by themselves or others called a 'Kit Bike,' which is exempt from EPA emissions requirements.  The owner can legally ride the non-emissions-compliant machine as much as they want.  However, the catch is that every rider is entitled to only one Kit Bike for unlimited use in their lifetime.  A rider can own more than one Kit Bike, but the mileage on these other bikes is restricted.

"'Custom Motorcycles' are also provided an exemption.  A person can own multiple custom motorcycles, but they must be labeled as such.  Further, these bikes can only be ridden to and from bike shows.  The owner must attach a label to the frame that reads, 'This motorcycle is exempt from EPA emissions requirements. Its use on public roads is limited pursuant to CFR 86.497-78(c).'

So, Federal emissions regulations do and don't apply to us- kinda like a stop light... when red.  


Interesting.

But when I said "do whatever you want" I was talking about what you could get away with rather than what is strictly legal.

Whole lotta "Kit Bikes"  and "customs"running around my neck of the woods. I wonder if their owners know that that's what they're riding.

My Sportster is one. The local Motorcycle Stores - I've been to several different ones - all give me a state inspection sticker every year.  And I've never been pulled over by the smog gestapo either.

Every Savage with a dyna muffler and a rejetted carb too.

Lets keep this to ourselves OK.

What the powers that be don't know etc. Cheesy


Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Gary_in_NJ
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

LS650 Cafe Racer

Posts: 2054
Amongst the Twisty Roads
Re: Breather Blues
Reply #98 - 02/14/20 at 12:39:37
 
Great, now I have to go give my bikes to the EPA...or just ride them to-and-from shows that I never go to.

Talk about over-thinking things. Build your bike and get on with life.
Back to top
 
 

A life-time student of motorcycling. LS650 Cafe, TS-Z400, FZ6
My LS650=> http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/Left.JPG
  IP Logged
Mavigogun
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

We roll farther
together

Posts: 586
Progressive Texas
Re: Breather Blues
Reply #99 - 02/14/20 at 13:16:24
 
Gary_in_NJ wrote on 02/14/20 at 12:39:37:
Great, now I have to go give my bikes to the EPA...or just ride them to-and-from shows that I never go to.

Talk about over-thinking things. Build your bike and get on with life.


I didn't read anything about impounding vehicles- well, no motorcycles, anyway: you may have heard something about Volkswagen's woes.

We've had more than enough of folks just doing what pleases them without consideration to consequence, me thinks.     Like all such things, the impacts are cumulative, stealing options from future generations.   I enjoy my little Savage- but not that much.   I'll attend to more than just the bike's style, and manage emissions; if performance isn't attractive, I'll ride something else instead.  For the most part, we're talking about a toy.

The world is populated by remnants of other people's choices, their legacy; it's natural to just accept all that as the way things are- but continuing to do so is taking us all someplace bleak and unappealing.   Lots of little choices made by 7 billion people add up.
Back to top
 
 

2007 LS650 s40, presently being rebuilt
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 1419

Re: Breather Blues
Reply #100 - 02/14/20 at 13:31:28
 
You can mitigate the inherent problem by installing a better air filter.  A less restrictive filter element will reduce the depression in the cavity between the filter and carburetor inlet.  That in-turn will reduce the differential between the crankcase and airbox, which in-turn will reduce the migration of oil mist/vapor.  I like the K&N element because it is vastly less restrictive than the stock paper element.  Nothing like a little data to back that up.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1543600189

Improving the air flow through your airbox will give you a little bump in performance.  If you set it up correctly, you can have your cake and eat it too, slightly better fuel economy, a smidge more HP, and reduced emmisions.  What's not to like?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
verslagen1
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Online

And Though She Be
But Little She is
Fierce!

Posts: 27112
L.A. California
Gender: male
Re: Breather Blues
Reply #101 - 02/14/20 at 15:16:51
 
Why not use an air filter that isn't harmed by a small amount of oil?

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1183640744
Back to top
 
 

WWW   IP Logged
ohiomoto
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 1813
Cleveland/Akron, Ohio
Re: Breather Blues
Reply #102 - 02/14/20 at 17:47:11
 
Gary_in_NJ wrote on 02/14/20 at 12:39:37:
Talk about over-thinking things. Build your bike and get on with life.
--------------

+1
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
SpamyToo
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 132

Re: Breather Blues
Reply #103 - 02/15/20 at 00:20:55
 
I think this conversation is past this topic, but just to clarify something, I believe what the govt considers a "kit bike", is something you make from parts and register a unique frame and engine number.  

Not something manufactured and then altered.  Or registered by someone licensed to register vehicles.  Just a layman's personal creation as far as I understand.
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
badwolf
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Ridin' my Lil'
Bagger

Posts: 612
Palm Beach County, FL
Gender: male
Re: Breather Blues
Reply #104 - 02/16/20 at 09:42:40
 
If you are going to obsess about emisions from your crankcase breather, maybe the new HD E-m/c would be more fitting for you.

( If you don't research the making and disposal of the batterys. )
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 7 8 
Send Topic Print


« Home

 
« Home
SuzukiSavage.com
08/05/20 at 13:14:40



General CategoryRubber Side Down! › Breather Blues


SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved.