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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Breather Blues /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1570415428 Message started by DragBikeMike on 10/06/19 at 19:30:28 |
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Title: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/06/19 at 19:30:28 During my test regimen for the high compression project, I had difficulty achieving good performance at high speed. My engine ran great in 1st, 2nd & 3rd gear, but towards the top of 4th gear (right about 7000 rpm), my air fuel ratio (AFR) would go max rich (10.0:1), and the engine would simply fall on its face. Shifting to 5th didn’t help. It pegged solid & steady at 10.0:1 AFR. The fact that the instrument was pegged solid & steady at 10.0:1 indicates that the mixture was significantly richer than 10:1. The AFR typically roams a bit, and under normal circumstances it’s never steady. The lower limit of the instrument is 10:1. So, the rock steady reading tells me it had to be richer than 10:1. A spark plug check also indicated that I had some detonation goin on. There were tiny silver balls deposited on my ground and center electrodes. I already knew I had possible issues with detonation since my cranking pressure was very high (about 245 psi). That’s why I was doing all the testing. Now I had a double whammy. I had to put the detonation issue to bed, and I had to figure out why the heck it was going rich at 7K. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/06/19 at 19:33:24 The rich condition came on as if a switch was thrown. Everything was fine in 1st thru 3rd, and looked good in 4th all the way to 7K. Then, right about 7K it would go rich, almost instantly. What could cause that? I was reluctant to re-jet. A smaller main jet might fix the problem in 4th, but what about 1st, 2nd & 3rd? I didn’t want to rob Peter to pay Paul. But ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I fiddled around with the main jet, and the main air bleed, and the air filter. Nothing helped. Same problem. Hit 7K in 4th and it would just flatline rich. While I was screwing around with the air box and air filter, I noticed that things were a bit oily. It didn’t seem too bad. Didn’t alarm me much. I knew these big singles spew oil out the breather system. It comes with the territory. Big singles (and V-Twins) have issues with the breather system. The underside of our big piston displaces 40 cubic inches of air every time it moves from TDC to BDC. And heading the other direction, it must pull 40 cubic inches of air back into the crankcase. Multi-cylinder engines generally don’t have that problem because as one piston is moving down, another is moving up, so the air displaced by one just moves over to the area under the piston that is moving up. Of course, as our big piston is shoving air out of the breather, oil droplets get carried with it. We have a screen scrubber assembly in the head that tries to capture the oil, but it can only handle so much. It works fine around 4K where most sane people operate, but I’m on a power quest. Maybe 7K for an extended amount of time is just too much. I drained the air box, and this is what was in there. Like I said, I wasn’t alarmed. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/06/19 at 19:34:09 The back side of the air filter element had some oil droplets. That seemed a little unusual, but I still wasn’t alarmed. I couldn’t recall if I had seen droplets on the rubber seal before. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/06/19 at 19:36:42 Here is a pic of the filter seal. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/06/19 at 19:39:58 Although I wasn’t finding anything that alarmed me, the evidence was starting to point at the breather system. If the breather system was reaching its limit at 7K, it might be spewing enough crankcase vapors and oil droplets to drive the AFR grossly rich. It would also explain detonation, which can be caused by oil contamination of the fresh charge. Time to test the theory. I disconnected the breather hose from the airbox and installed an auxiliary breather filter on to the hose. Then I plugged the air box nipple. Did a few laps around the surface streets in my neighborhood and a run on the freeway. All looked good. A quick lap on the official closed-course test track was rewarded with a nice 7250 rpm in 4th. It was still accelerating, but I had to shut down since I was closing in on a Jeep. The AFR was holding at around 12.5:1. It clearly had more in 4th , and I imagine 5th too. But where was that oil going? You got it, all over the bike. It wasn’t too bad, but I would hate to see it after an afternoon of this nonsense. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/06/19 at 19:42:03 So now it was time for a catch can. I fabricated this catch can from ABS pipe, a cheap fitting, a stainless-steel scrubbing pad, and the K&N breather filter. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/06/19 at 19:42:54 It has a drain bolt on the bottom to periodically drain out the oil, just like you’re supposed to do on the stock air box. The crankcase vent hose connects to the fitting on the side of the can. There is a scrubbing pad inserted in the upper part of the can to collect oil droplets and prevent them from being carried out of the breather filter. Here's what the interior looks like without the scrubbing pad. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/06/19 at 19:43:48 Here’s a shot with the scrubbing pad inserted. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/06/19 at 19:44:42 The 90° fitting in the side is for PEX piping and you can find it at any decent hardware store. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/06/19 at 19:45:40 You just drill a 15/32” hole in the 1-1/2” ABS pipe and then epoxy the fitting in place. I used JB Weld. The scrubbing pad is standard kitchen fare available at WalMart or any decent drug store. The stuff I found is stainless-steel. Bonus! |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/06/19 at 19:46:59 The filter is glued to a 1-1/2 ABS cap (Permatex Optimum Grey silicone sealant). The cap is held in place with a small sheet metal screw (#6 x ½”). Installation is easy and looks pretty good. Just attach it to the clutch cable with two black zip ties. Sweet! |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/06/19 at 19:48:25 I’ve been runnin it’s guts out and so far so good. Things are stayin dry and I haven’t accumulated too much oil in the can. The real test will be a max speed test in 4th & 5th. Not sure when I might try that. It’s getting spooky. This catch can & breather assembly is cheap and works well. If you are shooting for the Savage LSR, you might want to look at something like this. IMO, there’s no doubt that venting the crank case into the air box contaminates the fresh air charge, and significantly affects your power output. Hope some of you find this breather report interesting. Knowledge is power. Best regards, Mike |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by hotrod on 10/06/19 at 20:20:46 Seems like you got the AFR problem figured out and explained it all well. Good information there. As with the oil moving out of the breather hose, I don't think anything can fix that as it may come down to too many rpm's for this engine. Unless some catch canister and return system can be made, It's just the way it's gonna be. I run a no-filter hose down to the swing arm and have no sign of oil there. The bike is geared for highway use and is never near 7000 rpm...I think. I do wonder if a pcv , ball type check valve at the head cover would help or create too much back pressure. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by hotrod on 10/06/19 at 20:29:05 Your vent system looks great and far exceeds any mess I would have come up with. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 10/06/19 at 20:31:14 Hey DBM, I started a thread about crank breathers a while ago, and got responses like I had two heads. Being very familiar with the BMW (boxer) race bikes and crew, I know how much grief they went through with crank breathing. Those bikes have the pistons up and down at the same time, so there is a pretty radical change in air volume in the bottom end. Also, having read more issues of Circle Track magazine than I should admit to, I know that any serious race car is using a vacuum pump in the bottom end to not only reduce crankcase air pressure, but actually run crankcase vacuum. The new Ducati holy sh-t twin has such an air pump. In the 70's, Todd Schuster made up a breather can out of a sheet metal paint can (rectangular size) that fit where the starter used to be. He filled it with Chore Boy or some sort of metal scrubby type stuff. The critical part, however, was the installation of a reed valve from a McCollough chain saw on the crankcase opening. The trick was to not let the air get pulled back in. Further refinements of the system were done. Udo Gietl (crew chief) came up with the idea of running a steel pipe into the exhaust system at an angle, toward the direction of exhaust flow. This pipe was then connected to the canister. The idea being that the pipe would create vacuum in the catch can. Which it did. Another variation was tried by Kenny Augustine (third genius of the Butler and Smith Wrecking Crew). Kenny ran a very small line from the oil catch can to the crankcase top. On piston upstroke, when some negative pressure would happen in the crankcase (remember, it was now a sealed system, with vacuum), the oil from the catch can would be sucked back into the crankcase. On my bike, I bought one of the OoohBabyOoohBabyOooh Ducati crank breather valves which has two reed valves and a tine return hole. Just this week I was doing a head scratch session trying to decide how/where to install the reed valve. So, start by putting some sort of one-way valve on the breather. If you can run it vertically, use a PCV valve from a car motor. If not, use a power brake booster canister one-way valve. I think you hit a limit when you were fighting crank pressure. I was actually going to try running a shop vac to the breather line if/when I finally dyno my motor. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by ohiomoto on 10/07/19 at 07:03:59 Wait, did someone say "reed valve" ???? Brapp, braaaapp...(sound of 2-strokes, music to my ears) :) --------------------------------------- Great stuff DBM. That would explain why our bikes run rich up top when we think they shouldn't. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Ruttly on 10/07/19 at 08:16:46 I guess I'm gonna revisit the vacuum thing. When I was doing speed runs I would lean it out a bit at about 80 mph using the Intelajet , it made a difference. But that 85 to 100+ zone is a struggle , if it had EFI it would already have a turbo. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by batman on 10/07/19 at 14:49:58 Did you say turbo? (it's easier than that). Tuneing your intake Http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/Yabb.pl?num=1464235388/90 |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/07/19 at 15:40:02 Batman, can you fill me in on that link? I can't access it. Regarding comments by Hotrod & Armen, I have been toying with a check valve idea for a long time now. This is a picture of some umbrella valves for a late model Harley. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 10/07/19 at 15:48:04 My bud Pete Kogut, who did the Norton Club mag for years, and raced a very fast Norton, had a good idea. He used the backbone of the frame for a breather can. A quick look at the Savage says this idea merits further investigation.... |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by verslagen1 on 10/07/19 at 15:53:50 There's some holes in the bottom of the frame for drainage. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/07/19 at 16:14:04 Harley uses these umbrella valves in the head vents. I believe when they first implemented the umbrella valves they eliminated the timed breather gear. They run a dry sump so the scavenge pump and crank scraper tend to depress crankcase pressure. The timed breather gear acts as a one-way valve of sorts. I think when they incorporated the umbrella valves in the rocker boxes they ditched the timed breather setup (it was complicated). I don't think that particular innovation eliminated the constant puking all over the air filter and right side of the engine. But the umbrella valves fit the bill for me, and I have a plan to try and fabricate a check assembly using the Harley umbrella valve. Wish me luck. My Burgman uses a reed valve in the head vent. Nothing comes out of that. Its a 650cc twin with a 360 degree crank, so both pistons move up & down together. The reed valve assembly for that is compact so it might be a good candidate and probably sized correctly. The Burgman redlines at 8500. Hayden makes a device called a "crank vent plus". https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/hayden-krank-vent-plus-crankcase-breather-for-harley?gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuPWJjJ6L5QIVlaDsCh2c5gA3EAQYASABEgKJxvD_BwE It looks to be about perfect in terms of size. If I get nowhere with my umbrella valve project maybe I will resort to the Hayden product. For now, the catch can is working fine. I went out this morning for four timed pulls and a detonation check. The timed pulls went well and there was no hint of the dreaded spark knock with 98 octane fuel. I threw in a 7200 rpm 4th gear pull just to put icing on the cake. It ran fine and the vids look like its starting to run a bit leaner. Pulling all the excess oil out of the filter element. It's about an eight-mile round trip to my closed-course track, and it's mostly freeway riding. I let it cool down and checked the catch can drain. Bone dry. Not a drop came out of the drain. The area around the K&N breather filter is completely dry and there is absolutely zero oil anywhere around the catch can. That tells me that the stock breather location in the airbox actually sets up this oil mess dilemma. There has to be a slight depression below ambient where the breather hose ties in, otherwise there wouldn't be any air traveling through the filter element. I'm thinkin that slight depression unbalances the vent system and results in oil carry-over. It must be worse with the stock paper element. So far so good. I'm likin this contraption. 8-) Armen, a shop vac on the breather? Man, you are ambitious. :o Ya got any pics of your OoohBabyOoohBabyOooh Ducati reed assembly. That sounds exotic and expensive but I'm always up for another pony or two. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 10/07/19 at 16:20:08 DBM, the shop vac was just to test the theory and see if it was worth doing some sort of crankcase vacuum gag. One of the reasons the car guys use negative pressure is to be able to run low tension rings. Rings seal because of the difference in pressure above and below the ring. A significant portion of frictional losses come from the rings. Having said that, the passive system with a hose into the exhaust appeals to me for it's simplicity. Thanks for keeping us posted, DBM! |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/07/19 at 20:00:25 If you are looking for one of those exhaust fittings, Moroso makes them. I used to see them every now and then at the AHDRA events. I think you can get one from Summit or Jeggs. As I recall, they are cheap too. You could probably buy one and chop it up (similar to your chopped up head), then figure out what makes it tick, any subtle details, so you could fabricate your own. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by batman on 10/08/19 at 07:15:30 DBM. just do a search for -Tuning your intake -( Free turbocharging) how my stock motor pushes my bike to 90-92 mph. There might be danger if the evacuation from under the piston is to efficient , aren't things like the piston rings/skirts , cylinder walls , cam chain /gears basically "splash"( oil mist) lubricated ? The breather hose exits from the top of the motor for a reason , if it was just to relieve the pressure / vacuum , under the piston ,then it could have been run from the crank case . |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by verslagen1 on 10/08/19 at 11:37:39 I don't think the lack of air will reduce splash but will increase range. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Dave on 10/08/19 at 12:19:07 DBM: Hopefully you found your gremlin and the source of the rich mixture. I made a small metal breather can and mounted it to the bottom of the flat plate on the muffler....and it has the same scrubby mixture inside. The vent from the head goes to the can and exits near the bottom of the can, there is vent hose that returns to the intake between the filter and carb inlet......and a capped drain on the bottom of the canister. I have never had any problems with this setup and it did not affect the fuel mixture at full throttle in any gear. I get very little oil when I drain the breather box. However - I do suspect that because of the long hose routing and somewhat small fitting at the carb.....there is some positive pressure in the crankcase during hard acceleration. My speedo drive O-ring would sometimes weep oil out during hard acceleration - until I put in a new O-ring. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by verslagen1 on 10/08/19 at 12:54:49 I would think that inlet to the puke can should be low and the exhaust at the top to the intake. The addition of a small line (with a check valve to restrict the inflow) at the bottom would serve to return any accumulation to the crankcase. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Ruttly on 10/08/19 at 17:18:42 How much vaccuum do we need ? I imagine not much , but if someone has that number that would be appreciated. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Fast 650 on 10/09/19 at 10:07:59 There isn't any hard and fast rule of pressure, but the lower you can keep the pressure the better. Anything that reduces the amount of air trapped in the crankcase improves performance. When the piston is on a downstroke it is compressing the air in the crankcase as it is being forced out the vent, and on the upstroke it is trying to draw 40 cubic inches of air back in through the vent. Both actions waste power. A check valve will prevent air from being drawn back into the crankcase which will lower the pressure in the cases quite a bit. One of our track cars at work runs a vacuum pump and dry sump oiling, lowering crankcase pressure as well as reducing oil drag on the rotating assembly. Every little bit helps performance. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 10/15/19 at 12:37:56 DBM, Thanks for doing all this work! Do you feel as though the bike revved higher or easier with the breather situation tamed? Do the umbrella valves yet? |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/15/19 at 13:42:03 Clearly the bike revs higher in 4th & 5th gear. Prior to disconnecting the breather hose from the airbox, it would sign off at 7000 in 4th and actually start slowing down. With the breather hose vented to atmospheric, I ran it up to about 7250 in 4th before I had to shut down. I have gone for three rides since I did the catch can (one was to the dyno), and not one-drop of oil has accumulated in the can. On the dyno, we did several runs in 4th up around 7500 with no indication of the mixture going rich. I have a vid of one of those pulls if you want to see how the A/F ratio holds. The bike also seems to run cleaner each time I ride it. I attribute that to airflow cleaning the excess oil out of the air filter. It was a mess after several LSR attempts with the breather connected to the airbox. I'm too lazy to clean the filter, figure fresh air can do it for me. What the heck, its clean oil. ;) I'm likin the catch can. I should have a check valve on it in a week or two. I do have some concern over pulling a vacuum in the crankcase. I think it's unlikely, but there is a slim chance that the vacuum could cause suction lift problems with the oil pump. Plenty of other engines use the check valves/reed valves so, as I said, I think its unlikely. I think it will depend on how much suction head the pump runs at sustained WOT conditions. The oil pressure gage will come in handy to monitor for any suction lift problems. Any interruption in oil flow should show up on the gage. Will it respond fast enough??? :o |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Dave on 10/17/19 at 04:48:01 DBM I can't believe that you will have any oil pump issues by installing a check valve in the breather. The entire engine will be subject to whatever reduction in pressure occurs - so the oil pump won't notice any pressure changes and just keep on doing it's job. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/25/19 at 15:49:23 Man this is fun. ::) So I go out and get a check valve assembly, Hayden KrankVent Plus, do a few mods to it, and stick it in the vent hose between the head cover and catch can. It runs great. Seems to have a bit more mid range torque. The WOT times from 4K to 7K are still right at 2.9 seconds or so, but it feels significantly better at part throttle. The catch can is absolutely bone dry. I'm lovin it. So I decide that its time to see what sort of crankcase vacuum it's pullin. I make a little fitting to allow installation of a vacuum gage. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/25/19 at 15:50:55 Then I break out the trusty Monkey Wards Riverside vacuum gage (circa 1967) and hook it up with a snubber valve. Ready to rock-n-roll. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/25/19 at 15:54:18 I fire it up and it pulls like a dismal 0.5" Hg. I certainly expected a bit more than that. OK, so maybe without the KrankVent the case was pressurized significantly, so if its now a little below atmospheric that's cool, right? I take out the KrankVent and try again. I figure I should see some pressure. Now I push about 0.5" Hg. Hmmmm! :o |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/25/19 at 15:56:35 Oh well. I guess that little one inch Hg difference makes a worthwhile seat-o-da-pants impression. I disconnect the gear and start wrapping things up when I see this. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/25/19 at 15:57:46 After pinpointing the source I do the old feeler gage check. That's a .003" feeler shoved into the joint. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/25/19 at 16:00:07 The location of the blown gasket is in way of the oil drain. Looks like the sealing surface in this area is not up to the job. Back to the drawing board. :-[ |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/25/19 at 16:13:51 I'm not givin up on this. It felt really good with the KrankVent installed. To be fair to Hayden, I did modify their product, and the mods I did were intended to make it more efficient. I spoke with their tech guy, Tony, before I did these tests. They are a standup outfit. He spent a long time with me. I think their product may be a good fit for the Savage. It might work just fine right out of the package, and my mods might be the culprit here. Seat-o-da-pants it felt crisp and frisky at cruise. I think it was runnin significantly better. I suspect the gasket was blown long before I discovered it because the case was always under vacuum so no oil would come out, only dirt would go in. The leak didn't show up until I took the KrankVent out. I need to come up with a fix for the weak link and try again. Then I can see what sort of vacuum it pulls. I can put in a bleed orifice to limit vacuum. If I get it sorted out it will also help to keep the engine absolutely oil-dry. That would be a bonus. I just love messin with this thing. Now I have an excuse to yank the engine. Nirvana. 8-) Knowledge is power. Mike |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by batman on 10/25/19 at 17:45:12 DBM ,You might consider using a copper gasket at the cylinder base , it might prove more reliable than the stock . Dave is correct about the pressure /vacuum not influencing the function of the oil pump ,not for the reason he gave, but because of the pump's design . It 's a gear pump (positive displacement) it's output controlled only buy the speed it's turning and the size of the oil passages on the discharge side . Seeing how you have run the motor at speeds that exceed the redline of 6500 rpm by 1500 rpm , you may be seeing increased pressure and restricted flow-(the reason you're not finding oil in your collection can ?), you might think of reducing rpm by use of kawa pulley(s) for example, or use of a thinner oil if possible. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 10/26/19 at 05:11:20 DBM Thanks! So good to hear that the crankcase vent valves worked. Every serious racer uses them. Made me crazy to read all the reports of high RPM oil use and no-one had bothered to do this. When Nortons become 850cc and pulverized their base gaskets, Loctite developed a goop to use for the cylinder base instead of a gasket. Maybe try that stuff? |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Dave on 10/26/19 at 05:52:01 494A5F464A451F132B0 wrote:
Sorry Batman - I still stand my my statement. I am a licensed professional engineer, and the design of pumps and piping systems is my specialty. I have earned my living designing and building pumping stations. One of the parameters used in when designing pump is the inlet and outlet pressure (along with the elevations change). The Savage engine has the same relative pressure at the pump inlet as it does at the outlet (crankshaft and cam bearings). There may be some slight instantaneous pressure change as the piston goes up/down and the air inside the engine has to rush up/down through the cam chain housing to reach the top of the engine where the cam is - however that will be in a constant state of change +/_ with each stroke and the average will be the same anywhere within the crankcase. So.......when you pull a vacuum on the engine crankcase - the entire crankcase will be affected and the pump will have no change in the way it operates. And yes.......I do understand that the oil pump is a positive displacement pump and the pressure increases as the resistance increases - but that is not an issue when the entire crankcase pressure changes similarly at both the inlet/outlet of the pump. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Dave on 10/26/19 at 06:32:46 DBM I am a little bit confused.....your vacuum gauge only reads a vacuum and not pressure. Are you saying that with the valve installed it pulls a vacuum - but without the gauge it makes a "positive" pressure in the crankcase? How did you read a positive on that vacuum gauge? Sorry that you got a leak.....that location requires a bunch of work to get to that gasket! I would not think that the gasket would fail just from changing 0.5" of pressure to 0.5" of vacuum....the net result is a change from pushing on the gasket to pulling on it, as your numbers show the same value but in a different direction. In your pursuit of a tighter squish - have you considered leaving the gasket out and using the same Suzukibond that you use on the head cap to seal the cylinder base? |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by hotrod on 10/26/19 at 10:03:16 About $100.00 for a $8.00 check valve ? Seems way overpriced for such a simple item. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Fast 650 on 10/26/19 at 10:32:06 172C2136272B30362D252837440 wrote:
Look closer at the gauge face, Dave. The needle is double ended, and there is a pressure scale just inside the vacuum scale. One end of the needle reads vacuum, the other end reads pressure. Clever design. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Dave on 10/26/19 at 12:01:07 OK....I see the two sides now. Vacuum is in inches of mercury - pressure side is in pounds. So.....if it is 0.5 psi he read on the the gauge.........that equates to something around 1" of mercury. The end result is he reduced the crankcase pressure by 1.5"....but more importantly he went from a pressure to a slight vacuum. I guess DBM needs to set us straight - he might have already done the correction. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/26/19 at 12:43:44 Armen, I'm goin with copper base gasket. Using a sealant will change the cylinder elevation. I already have a bit too much compression. If I do another cylinder, like a 97mm, I might only machine about .100 off the top and then use sealant on the base. HotRod, yes, $100 for the KrankVent is pricey. Originally, I was gonna make my own. That's why I had the Harley umbrella valves. But I got lazy and wanted to try this idea, so I sprung for the Hayden unit. I think the idea has merit so it was worth the investment to forge ahead with the project. I'm learning a lot. I think it was a good investment for me. Dave, yes, with the KrankVent it pulls a slight vacuum in the crankcase, and without the KrankVent it develops a slight pressure in the crankcase. The vacuum gage is a crude instrument. My reported values of 0.5" Hg vacuum with KrankVent, and 0.5" Hg pressure without KrankVent are estimations based on gage pointer position. The graduations are in 1.0 increments so its simply my estimation based on what I observed. I backed that up by installing a Sears vacuum gage. It behaves the same way and the pointer moves about the same amount. With either instrument, I arrive at the same conclusion. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/26/19 at 13:15:32 I wanted to get a better feel for how much vacuum this thing might pull. The gasket failure didn't seem consistent with such a minute pressure differential. So I cleaned up the area with mineral spirits and smashed a big mound of modeling clay over the leak zone. I really piled on the clay to make sure its was sealed good. I only tested it with the KrankVent installed because I figured vacuum will hold the clay dam in place, but pressure will blow it off. With the leak plugged, it pulled 1.0" Hg vacuum. These tests were done in my garage. I just started it up and ran the engine unloaded up to about 5000 rpm. I never rode it with the vacuum gage in place. My intent was to ride it, but I found the leak. That shut the test down. For all I know, the blown gasket could simply be a coincidence. The missing chunk of gasket could be inside the engine, or it could have blown out of the engine. I wont know until I take it apart. Regarding crankcase vacuum and oil pump suction. Yes, I agree, the crankcase ambient pressure on both sides (suction & discharge) should be the same, so the DP across the pump should not be affected. But this little pump doesn't appear to have any suction head at rest, and when the engine is operating, it looks to me like it will go into suction lift because the oil level in the sump will go down. The temperature of the pumpage is elevated, possibly as high as 300 degrees. My concern over pump suction was related to flashing. If the contraption pulled too much vacuum it could reach the saturation pressure of the liquid. I mentioned that it seemed like an unlikely problem, and now that I have a better feel for what sort of vacuum we are dealing with, I'm very confident that pump suction wont be a problem. The oil pressure gage backs that assumption up. The stuff I've been reading indicates that there are oiling problems associated with crankcase vacuum. Wrist pins and exhaust valve guides can run dry. But those problems don't come into play until crankcase vacuum approaches 10" Hg. This thing isn't anywhere close to that. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Dave on 10/27/19 at 02:29:56 Mike: I know this isn't your style of workmanship - but I suspect that if you replaced the modeling clay with some black RTV.......you could get a temporary repair that would hold up long enough for some additional test riding. The RTV can be removed later on with a bit of labor - it comes off with plastic or wooden scrapers.......and also some forceful rubbing with your fingers. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/27/19 at 11:40:14 Thanks for the suggestion Dave. Actually, that pretty much is my style of workmanship when it comes to troubleshooting. As long as the blob doesn't screw up the surface cosmetically. I did consider covering it with silicone, but the leak was going to get repaired and I didn't want to wait a day for the silicone to cure. The engine is currently on the deck and ready for disassembly. Copper base gaskets are on order. I might regret not trying to test further, but its water under the bridge now. So let's say I get it apart and fix the base gasket. Where's the next weak link. I'm gonna say "alternator cover gasket". Where can I get a copper gasket for that? After that, I predict that the next weak link would be the output shaft seal (might start to run dry). Is the minor improvement (perceived) worth all the trouble? Of course, if you learn a bunch of good stuff in the process. ;) Hey Armen, is this what you are looking for? It doesn't even require welding. It's aviation grade man. 8-) https://antisplataero.com/products/crankcase-vacuum-kit-complete |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/27/19 at 16:22:01 Somethin stinks here. :o I've been thinkin about this and I can't see any reason why this thing doesn't pull at least as much vacuum as the intake manifold. There has to be another leak, and it has to be a one-way leak. Air goes in but oil doesn't come out. I'm thinkin the only thing that could cause that is an oil seal, like the output shaft or the shift shaft or the clutch actuator or the speedo drive. Hmmmmm! |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Dave on 10/27/19 at 16:46:15 DBM The reason I think you can't pull a lot of vacuum with a check valve, is the breather port is pretty small compared to the size of the piston. As the piston comes down and the crankcase pressurizes - only a small portion of that squeezed air can get past the wire screen scrubby thingy and out the hose to the other side of the check valve.....and there is only a tiny fraction of a second before the piston starts back up and removes the pressure and begins to create the vacuum......and whatever blow by comes down the cylinder/piston/ring assembly is adding more volume to the air. Without the check valve - I believe there is actually very little exchange of air going in and out the breather, as the small hole doesn't allow much air to rush in or out.....and there is just a constant +/- pressure pulse going on inside the engine - the vent only is bleeding off the increase that is the piston blow by caused by the combustion process. I think it is pretty amazing that you are able to create any crankcase vacuum with a check valve - and I wonder if you will have any vacuum at all with the engine at full throttle and high rpm.....under a heavy load there may be so much blow by that the crankcase ends up being pressurized - and I wonder what the crankcase pressure is when the engine is at "full chat"? As an example.....I was having some problem with an oil leak that was really difficult to find. My bike would stay clean and shiny....but every now and then I would find oil up on the front of the fuel tank on the right side. I thought maybe it was a fork seal - but they were fine and I never had any oil residue on the sliders. I thought maybe the brake master cylinder was leaking.....nope. Eventually I found that is was the O-ring down on the left side of the engine where the speedometer drive inserts into the engine case. It only leaked when I would accelerate under full throttle - and I can ride for a whole month without running through the gears at full throttle.....I find riding around curves more fun than full throttle drag races. When the oil came out around the speedometer drive, the swirling wind would carry the oil upward and forward and deposit it on the front of the tank....it was really a surprise to find the oil drops were carried so far forward without leaving a mess down by the source. I surmised that the only reason it leaked was the crankcase pressure increased when I was at full throttle and pushed oil past the seal. When I replaced the O-ring on the speedometer drive - the leak went away. The piston is a 95mm Wiseco that was bored and received a silicone carbide treatment by Boretech, and it doesn't burn any oil and has good compression - so I don't believe my engine has any unusual amount of blow by. This engine is notorious for sending oil out the breather when operated at sustained high rpm on the interstate - so I think it is somehow a "special feature" of this engine. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/27/19 at 23:44:54 I don't know Dave. It pulls enough vacuum to do this. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/27/19 at 23:45:33 Here's a shot of the top side of the gasket. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/27/19 at 23:58:04 Before I tore it apart, I tried to test it by pulling a vacuum with my hand pump (one of those brake bleeder contraptions). Best I could pull was 2" Hg. I figure that big piston oughta be able to at least match that little hand pump. It would slowly bleed down when I stopped pumping. Maybe took five-seconds to drop back to zero. I looked over the entire engine for potential leak points. Looks to me like there are just too many to seal up. I could reverse the installation on the lip seals (output shaft, shift shaft, decompression shaft), but the speedo cable and starter would be difficult to plug up. The sealing surfaces looked good. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/28/19 at 00:05:41 I cleaned up the old gasket material and installed the cylinder. It mates up nicely with the crankcase. I can't insert a .001" feeler, and if I lift the cylinder slightly and insert the feeler, when I rest the cylinder back down I can't pull the feeler out. I don't think the blow out is related to a bad sealing surface or gasket. But I also find it hard to accept that the whimpy vacuum this thing pulls was enough to suck the gasket into the drain. It's a nuclear phenomenon. :o When I get it all back together with a nice copper base gasket, I will test it some more and see what happens. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by hotrod on 10/28/19 at 09:29:12 DBM, If I ever take the cylinder off I'll replace the base gasket with a copper one for insurance. Is that a Savage part, or aftermarket ? Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/28/19 at 12:28:19 I ordered the cylinder base gasket from Copper Gaskets Unlimited, Phoenix, AZ. I sent him a new OEM gasket to use as a template. He makes a CAD drawing and then uses the drawing in his equipment (I assume some sort of laser cutter). So he will have the LS650 gasket CAD file and it will be easy to order from him in the future. A variety of thicknesses are available so it will be easy to adjust deck height. The stock gasket is .018". coppergasketsunlimited@yahoo.com |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 10/28/19 at 19:50:58 Thanks DBM. BTW, how much was the copper gasket? |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 10/28/19 at 19:54:07 Thanks for the info on the Krank Vent. Just ordered one. It'll take less effort than making my Duc one fit. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/29/19 at 13:11:19 The copper gasket was like $15 Armen. There are some interesting tidbits related to that Hayden vent. I don't know if the other forum members have any interest in the KrankVent nitty-gritty. If you want, I can elaborate on the key points here in this post, or I can eMail you the details and pictures. LMK |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 10/29/19 at 17:25:56 Thanks DBM! Why don't you go ahead and post the Krank Vent info? Worst case scenario is that someone doesn't read it. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/30/19 at 03:07:52 OK. Here goes. Try not to fall asleep. I had one of these gizmos years ago. It was on my old Harley Evo engine. The two halves of the assembly fit together very tight. The one I received recently (for the Savage) was loose. It didn't fit together tight. There was a gap between the two halves, and you could wiggle them around. See the big gap. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/30/19 at 03:12:15 When I popped it apart the first thing I noticed was this big, fat 1/8" cross-section o-ring. I could also see that the umbrella valve did not contact the seating surface. If you sucked on it hard enough, the umbrella valve would make-up, but it didn't seem right. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/30/19 at 03:15:20 I dug up some old Harley umbrella valve assemblies from a Twin Cam. Those had umbrella valves that were in intimate contact with their seating surface. I thought the Hayden unit should be set up the same way. See how these Twin Cam umbrellas seat nicely. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/30/19 at 03:17:47 The Twin Cam engine uses a significantly larger umbrella valve than the Evo, but the concept is the same. It's a check valve that allows air to flow out of the engine but not back in. Here you can see the difference in size between and Evo and Twin Cam umbrella. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/30/19 at 03:22:17 The Hayden KrankVent uses the smaller Evo style umbrella valve. Awhile back I picked up four of them from Dennis Kirk. I was gonna manufacture my own check valve assembly. As I previously mentioned, I got lazy. If you want some of these Genuine James Gaskets umbrella valves, this is the part number. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/30/19 at 03:25:19 The Genuine James Gasket umbrella valve fixed the gap between the valve & its seat. The material is softer and more pliable. Simply replacing the Hayden part with the James part resulted in a nice tight fit. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/30/19 at 03:30:30 In the previous picture, you can also see that I replaced the big fat o-ring with a 3/32" cross section o-ring. More on that later. I noticed that there was almost no radial clearance between the housing and the circumference of the umbrella valve. That seemed too restrictive. Note how the edge of the umbrella valve sits almost all the way to the circumference of the seat. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/30/19 at 03:41:30 To tighten up the sloppy fit between the two halves of the assembly, and to provide more clearance between the umbrella and the housing, I made a new housing from Delrin. The new housing has a stepped bore. It overlaps the major diameter of the body (like 1.345") with a push fit. That holds the assembly together while still permitting disassembly for maintenance. It has a minor bore in way of the new o-ring (like 1.170"). That stabilizes the assembly and gets rid of all the wiggling, and of course provides a nice sealing surface. And for the remainder of the bore in way of the umbrella valve, its about .050" larger than the original (like 1.255"). That provides additional clearance between the housing and the circumference of the umbrella valve. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/30/19 at 03:42:15 Here's what it looks like assembled. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 10/30/19 at 03:42:46 Awesome! Thanks! Just bolts on! |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/30/19 at 03:43:04 Here's what it looks like installed. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 10/30/19 at 03:45:01 Very tidy! |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 10/30/19 at 03:45:06 So is the blown/sucked-out base gasket a result of my modifications to the Hayden KrankVent? Only da shadow knows. :o |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by hotrod on 10/30/19 at 21:36:51 Why not use the old, cheap, metal ball over the hole PCV valve ? The only problem I can see is that it would have to be mounted vertical which may require a longer hose . |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 11/05/19 at 09:53:12 DBM, Got my Krank Vent today. Looks a lot like yours. One thing I noticed, the package says that it allows a little air to go back into the crankcase. That would limit the amount of vacuum in the bottom end. Your mod (different umbrella valve) made for a tighter seal, and I'm assuming, more crankcase vacuum. And yours sucked the base gasket in. So, maybe you overdid it? Thoughts? |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by verslagen1 on 11/05/19 at 09:57:18 4A79666E650B0 wrote:
Interested, but not interested in replacing every gasket when they are sucked in. Would there be a way to regulate vacuum with a blow in valve? |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 11/05/19 at 13:23:37 On 10/30/19 DBM wrote: "So is the blown/sucked-out base gasket a result of my modifications to the Hayden KrankVent? Only da shadow knows." Yes Armen, there's a chance I overdid it. The mystery is the amount of vacuum I measured when I was testing it. It was pretty miniscule. The most I could pull, even with the leak patched up, was 1" Hg. I'm pretty sure I can get the gaskets and seals to hold 1" Hg. But I don't know how much vacuum it pulls under normal riding conditions. What does it do at WOT around 7K? What does it do when compression braking? What does it do when I load it up at low rpm? So the plan is to get a good, solid base gasket installed (i.e. copper) and try again. I will instrument the crankcase and go for a ride. Then we will know just how much vacuum the thing can pull. The Harley umbrella valves seal 100% at rest, they don't have a gap. Other motorcycles use reed valves. I don't see any reason why this thing shouldn't be able to hack it. If the thing pulls too much vacuum, and gaskets are simply not up to the job (the only one left is alternator cover), then I will incorporate a bypass bleed orifice, or a relief valve (vacuum breaker) like Versy mentioned. If that doesn't work, then I will take the contraption off. It will have been an interesting project. Hey Armen, can you post some pics of the Hyaden so we can compare to what I received? Is it loose and wiggly? |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 11/05/19 at 15:26:54 My Krank Vent looks a lot like yours. The play didn't bother me as it makes it easier to disassemble. O-ring seems tight enough to keep it from seeking on the sides. According to the package, it's supposed to allow some suck back. I'm thinking that if I mount it vertically, with a hose pointing straight up, any oil mist will gather at the umbrella and get sucked back into the motor. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by batman on 11/09/19 at 21:18:57 I predict even with the copper gasket ,an oil leak will in time appear in the came location, if run at rpms between 7000 and 7500 . |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 11/10/19 at 06:28:17 Was working on a friend's V11 Guzzi yesterday. M. Mouse engineering crank vent system. Way too many hoses and a return line back to the sump that was outright dangerous. Told him about your experiments. Also remember talking to Dr John Wittner of Dr John Guzzi fame (80's, 90's Battle of the Twins) and how much effort they put into crank venting and vacuum. John was striving for some crankcase vacuum. Replumbed it using my Hayden Krank Vent. Much tidier! Quick warm up and it all seems fine. Know more after a long run. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 11/10/19 at 15:13:09 Armen, are you saying that you took your brand new Hayden KrankVent and installed it on your friends MotoGuzzi? You really are a sweetie. ;D What's the displacement on that G11? What is the angle between cylinders? What sort of redline? Please let us know how it works out. Wait a minute, its like 30 below over there right now. Will we have to wait five months to find out? |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 11/10/19 at 18:07:06 V11 1100cc 90 degree, like all Guzzi twins Waiting for him to actually ride the darn bike! |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Mavigogun on 02/13/20 at 08:43:25 More and more, I'm valuing the Savage as an ICE primmer/teaching mechanism. The faster I want to go, the more I gotta know; what I don't know is without bounds... so, perhaps, is the potential for learning- and performance improvements. Prior to owning this machine, my understanding of ICE's was limited to Fuel, Air, Spark, and Fire- so when a performance need imposes, my ignorance supplies a vacuum, quickly filled with stuff I don't yet understand. Bits of erudition and arcane knowledge are forced past my filter. This may be tedious to witness, and taxing of patience- so thanks for your charity, in advance- Please, disabuse me if this understanding is wrong: The Savage airbox has been designed to do double-duty, both supplying air to the carb, and acting as a breathing receptacle for the crankcase. That crankcase respiration introduces aerosolized/atomized oil into the breather box, where it soaks the air filter and is inhaled by the carb; this is a performance killer, restricting airflow and overly enriching the mix at high RPM's. DBM said 'to-hell-with-that', plugged the crank case breather inlet to the airbox, routing the hose instead to a new organ to support the requisite crank case respiration; this new organ consists of a chamber with a filter top, a drain bottom, and a crank case vent tube inlet at a section of chamber filled with steal padding to obstruct the free passage of aerosolized oil up the chamber to the filter. Happy-day! -the engine breaths/performs better, and the airbox filter requires less attention. This spawns more than a few questions- 1] It's been suggested elsewhere that such an auxilory crank breather might reduce oil consumption. How can that be? 2] Is there some reason the oil collected in the auxiliary crank case breather shouldn't be reintroduced to the crank case? 3] I'll likely ditch the stock speedo cable after replacing the fuel tank; might I use the freed crank case speedo orifice as a return for oil collected in an auxiliary crank case breather? 4] Don't some folks dispensed with the breather box? What are the implications for the crank case breather tube in such a system? Digressing, does any new air intake for the carb need to be contrived in such a way as maintain a degree of pressure or avoid vacuum? I saw one Savage with a forward-facing carb air port feeding the carb via a J tube, supplying air at increasing speed and pressure; is that nuts? 5] What didn't I ask that I should have? |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 02/13/20 at 08:54:28 Good questions. Oil mist going into the airbox into the carb into the engine harms performance. The oil lowers the octane of the gas, and carbons up the combustion chamber. Big singles are basically like an air compressor. Each time the piston goes up and down, the crankcase is trying to 'breathe' at least the amount of the motor's displacement. Starting with racers decades ago, and now with street bikes, dealing with crankcase pressure has been a critical part of improving performance. The Duc V-4s go as far as running a pump to have negative crankcase pressure. It seems that part of the huffing and puffing going on down there results in oil mist being pushed out. With a proper crank breather, eventually very little air is being 'breathed' out. With good ring sealing, eventually there is little or no air being pushed out (and therefor, little if no oil mist). The BMW race bikes in the late 70's used a crankcase reed valve (McCollough chain saw derived) and eventually a bleed back to allow any oil gathered in the breather can to go back in the crankcase. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 02/13/20 at 13:37:38 This looks like as good a time as any to update this post. Mavigogun, the stock breather setup connects the engine breather to the airbox cavity located between the air filter and the carburetor inlet. Since ALL air filter elements have some degree of inherent restriction, the cavity between the filter and the carburetor inlet will operate slightly below atmospheric pressure. This low pressure (depression) increases (i.e gets even lower) as the engine speed increases. That's not a big deal at moderate speeds, but when you start operating at higher speeds, the increased depression starts to act in concert with the increased crankcase pressure to transfer oil mist out of the engine into the airbox. The filter restriction remains constant but the airflow increases, so the depression in the airbox increases. Blowby past the rings increases with load and rpm so crankcase pressure increases. It's the perfect storm. Higher pressure in the crankcase working with lower pressure in the airbox equals higher differential which results in increased vapor/mist flow. Since I installed the dedicated breather/catch can, I have not found one single drop of oil in the can. Not even a film of oil. I don't pamper my motorcycle, I ride it hard and put it to bed wet. No oil in the catch can, zero, nada, well over 1000 miles. I believe HotRod also posted that he is running an open breather line and never gets any oil out of it. When I first disconnected the breather hose to test this concept, I ended up with oil all over the side of my bike. That was all the residual slop left over in the head cover screen, breather cavity, hose, etc. Once that was all purged, zero oil comes out of my breather. That's after at least 1000 miles. It's simple enough to test. Just pick up a small breather filter and try it out. I think you will like it. The failed cylinder base gasket seems to be the result of inadequate cylinder stud stress, not excess pressure or vacuum in the crankcase. This old post provides all the specifics. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1576269113/12#12 |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Mavigogun on 02/13/20 at 13:52:47 76707F03010602320 wrote:
So, how much of the auxiliary crank-case-breather-can-system might just be dispensed with? If it ends up not passing oil, will a short section of tube with a small capping filter work just as well? Less important, perhaps, but what do you reckon Suzuki's design intent was? |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by oldNslow on 02/13/20 at 16:03:14 Quote:
Suzuki's design intent was to be able to sell the motorcycle. It's been illegal for the manufacturers of ICE vehicles to vent crankcase emissions into the atmosphere for a pretty long while. They all have to deal with that issue somehow. The simplest method is to route the blowby back into the intake where it can be burned. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 02/13/20 at 18:24:02 TO be clear, the bike needs a crank vent with a one way valve. Air out, not in. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Mavigogun on 02/14/20 at 05:32:16 734D4C40524E4F210 wrote:
I see. So all these cafe racer and bobbers that open up the frame by removing the airbox are, essentially, no different than diesel trucks modded to “blow coal”- ‘screw everybody else, I’m a loud-proud part of the problem’? All that oil that that I “burn up” driving the bike at high speed is essentially no different. So while there are all these modifications I might undertake to “improve performance” for my own pleasure, ultimately they come at a cost distributed to everybody. I reckon I need to either find satisfaction operating the machine within it’s designed range, or find another bike. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by oldNslow on 02/14/20 at 07:17:36 6A66716E6068607269070 wrote:
I see. So all these cafe racer and bobbers that open up the frame by removing the airbox are, essentially, no different than diesel trucks modded to “blow coal”- ‘screw everybody else, I’m a loud-proud part of the problem’? All that oil that that I “burn up” driving the bike at high speed is essentially no different. So while there are all these modifications I might undertake to “improve performance” for my own pleasure, ultimately they come at a cost distributed to everybody. I reckon I need to either find satisfaction operating the machine within it’s designed range, or find another bike. [/quote] You can do pretty much whatever you want. Motorcycles are still mostly under the emissions compliance radar for the time being, as far as the end user is concerned. Manufacturers who build and offer NEW bikes for sale don't have that luxury. No need to get all riled up. I was just answering your question regarding why I think Suzuki engineered the Savage crankcase vent the way they did. . ::) |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Mavigogun on 02/14/20 at 07:53:05 7D43424E5C40412F0 wrote:
It was a good answer, leading to questions I hadn't been asking myself. In Texas, where I live, sex with animals is legal- one may "do pretty much whatever you want"; what we should do for ourselves, our community, and our environment often diverges from what we can do. The Republic of Texas once made slavery legal, entered a civil war over it- placing those who favored can in direct conflict with those choosing should. Don't entirely loose faith in humanity, though- only a fraction of Texans chose, through force or willfull blindness, to steal the lives of fellow human beings. I reckon we are afforded some insight into those historic choices now, with the consequences of headless pollution being so ever-present and demonstrable. The question is not who we are when society imposes order, but who we choose to be at liberty. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Armen on 02/14/20 at 08:16:10 Mavigonon, I'd bet that all the bikes on this forum pollute less than one pickup rolling coal. If you think about the breather discussion, you'll understand that using a proper crank vent valve system pretty much eliminates the crank fumes going out into the atmosphere. I'm with you on the loud pipes and crazy badly jetted machines belching smoke, and making a ton of noise. Quite often I'll work on a bike that was rejected and only gets 30MPG. Makes me crazy to see machines set up so bad, waste gas, and pollute the air. A bit of work and many times I've picked up 10+MPG with only some work. Also, understand that routing the crank fumes in to the airbox doesn't mean that they get completely burned up. Hard to get oil to burn that cleanly. I'd recon at full chat, a Savage with the standard breather is putting out more pollution than at lower revs. So, with a proper crank vent/valve/bereather, the bikes are probably cleaner than stock. Hope that makes you feel better about this. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Mavigogun on 02/14/20 at 09:07:06 As ever, Armen, what you return to discourse is thoughtful, considerate. I appreciate the demonstrated reduction in oil uptake- but what of the other crankcase vapors? Isn't the very difference in crankcase pressure that reduces oil aerosolization indicative of escaping gasses? I suspect engineers at Suzuki would have favored the solution, were it one- though factors other than effectiveness may have been at play. So, how can we return the blow-by vapors emitted by auxiliary crankcase breather to the carb while retaining the pressure circumstance it creates, and reduced oil consumption? Alternatively, my after-market exhaust is hot enough to ignite unburnt gasses- might we introduce the crank case vapors into a combustion chamber affixed to the exhaust? Apparently, this strategy is employed by automobile racers- while perhaps not directly useful for our application, some examples from Summit Racing may be found here: https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/crankcase-evacuation-systems Some caution is made for systems shedding oil and the risk of oil collecting in a muffler. I also appreciate the net impact of proper tuning and maintenance; it may be that heeding proper tire pressure alone might result in greater impact on net emissions than some contrivances; of course, it ain't an either-or- impacts are cumulative. Maybe we can patch all the holes in the hull without resorting to transformative extremes, sealing over the deck, and being left with a submarine instead of a sailboat. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Mavigogun on 02/14/20 at 10:39:34 427C7D71637F7E100 wrote:
I discovered the legality under Federal statute depends on circumstance and use. A summation: "According to the 2004 EPA rules, a rider can own a bike built from parts by themselves or others called a 'Kit Bike,' which is exempt from EPA emissions requirements. The owner can legally ride the non-emissions-compliant machine as much as they want. However, the catch is that every rider is entitled to only one Kit Bike for unlimited use in their lifetime. A rider can own more than one Kit Bike, but the mileage on these other bikes is restricted. "'Custom Motorcycles' are also provided an exemption. A person can own multiple custom motorcycles, but they must be labeled as such. Further, these bikes can only be ridden to and from bike shows. The owner must attach a label to the frame that reads, 'This motorcycle is exempt from EPA emissions requirements. Its use on public roads is limited pursuant to CFR 86.497-78(c).'” So, Federal emissions regulations do and don't apply to us- kinda like a stop light... when red. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by oldNslow on 02/14/20 at 11:22:39 303C2B343A323A28335D0 wrote:
I discovered the legality under Federal statute depends on circumstance and use. A summation: "According to the 2004 EPA rules, a rider can own a bike built from parts by themselves or others called a 'Kit Bike,' which is exempt from EPA emissions requirements. The owner can legally ride the non-emissions-compliant machine as much as they want. However, the catch is that every rider is entitled to only one Kit Bike for unlimited use in their lifetime. A rider can own more than one Kit Bike, but the mileage on these other bikes is restricted. "'Custom Motorcycles' are also provided an exemption. A person can own multiple custom motorcycles, but they must be labeled as such. Further, these bikes can only be ridden to and from bike shows. The owner must attach a label to the frame that reads, 'This motorcycle is exempt from EPA emissions requirements. Its use on public roads is limited pursuant to CFR 86.497-78(c).'” So, Federal emissions regulations do and don't apply to us- kinda like a stop light... when red. [/quote] Interesting. But when I said "do whatever you want" I was talking about what you could get away with rather than what is strictly legal. Whole lotta "Kit Bikes" and "customs"running around my neck of the woods. I wonder if their owners know that that's what they're riding. My Sportster is one. The local Motorcycle Stores - I've been to several different ones - all give me a state inspection sticker every year. And I've never been pulled over by the smog gestapo either. Every Savage with a dyna muffler and a rejetted carb too. Lets keep this to ourselves OK. What the powers that be don't know etc. :D |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/14/20 at 12:39:37 Great, now I have to go give my bikes to the EPA...or just ride them to-and-from shows that I never go to. Talk about over-thinking things. Build your bike and get on with life. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Mavigogun on 02/14/20 at 13:16:24 5E54505A51585C550B0D09390 wrote:
I didn't read anything about impounding vehicles- well, no motorcycles, anyway: you may have heard something about Volkswagen's woes. We've had more than enough of folks just doing what pleases them without consideration to consequence, me thinks. Like all such things, the impacts are cumulative, stealing options from future generations. I enjoy my little Savage- but not that much. I'll attend to more than just the bike's style, and manage emissions; if performance isn't attractive, I'll ride something else instead. For the most part, we're talking about a toy. The world is populated by remnants of other people's choices, their legacy; it's natural to just accept all that as the way things are- but continuing to do so is taking us all someplace bleak and unappealing. Lots of little choices made by 7 billion people add up. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by DragBikeMike on 02/14/20 at 13:31:28 You can mitigate the inherent problem by installing a better air filter. A less restrictive filter element will reduce the depression in the cavity between the filter and carburetor inlet. That in-turn will reduce the differential between the crankcase and airbox, which in-turn will reduce the migration of oil mist/vapor. I like the K&N element because it is vastly less restrictive than the stock paper element. Nothing like a little data to back that up. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1543600189 Improving the air flow through your airbox will give you a little bump in performance. If you set it up correctly, you can have your cake and eat it too, slightly better fuel economy, a smidge more HP, and reduced emmisions. What's not to like? |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by verslagen1 on 02/14/20 at 15:16:51 Why not use an air filter that isn't harmed by a small amount of oil? http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1183640744 |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by ohiomoto on 02/14/20 at 17:47:11 2822262C272E2A237D7B7F4F0 wrote:
+1 |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by SpamyToo on 02/15/20 at 00:20:55 I think this conversation is past this topic, but just to clarify something, I believe what the govt considers a "kit bike", is something you make from parts and register a unique frame and engine number. Not something manufactured and then altered. Or registered by someone licensed to register vehicles. Just a layman's personal creation as far as I understand. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by badwolf on 02/16/20 at 09:42:40 If you are going to obsess about emisions from your crankcase breather, maybe the new HD E-m/c would be more fitting for you. ( If you don't research the making and disposal of the batterys. ) |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by batman on 02/16/20 at 16:37:21 While we seem to be concerned here with oil / fuel vapors, that may or not be burned in the motor , that's nothing compared to what's leaving your exhaust pipe . IC ( internal combustion ) engines ,gas and diesel efficiency , only runs between about 20 to 30 percent , the other 70 to 80% ( gas favors the lower end of the span)passing out the exhaust is much worse than the fumes from the breather hose. Take heart, MY 2008 chev pickup (5.3L) and my Savage at 60 mph when compared ,the truck puts out 4 1/2 times the exhaust ,true it has a Cat converter but I still open the garage door when I fire up a motor. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Mavigogun on 02/17/20 at 06:22:28 4C4F5A434F401A162E0 wrote:
A brief review indicates that while it is true that only 20-30% of fuel is typically thermally converted to useful energy, a modern, conforming engine successfully burns all but a fraction of a percentile of fuel. Tail pipe emissions, while linked, don’t relate directly to energy conversion efficiency- that is, just because energy isn’t harnessed doesn’t mean it wasn’t converted to heat, exiting as a proportionate constituent of exhaust emissions. While the volume of emissions from the crankcase and exhaust differ radically, so does the character and liabilities- that, after all, is why systems are contrived to confront crankcase emissions. It’s a bit of a non sequitur to claim venting the crankcase directly to atmosphere is no big deal simply because there is comparatively less of it- akin to saying “don’t worry about the low levels of lead and mercury in this ice cream, as it contains far more cholesterol”. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by verslagen1 on 02/17/20 at 07:13:31 After you convert to electric m/c... will you worry about the ozone? |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Mavigogun on 02/17/20 at 07:16:24 I understand the motive to deride and dismiss these as petty concerns- but not the impulse. I suggest we limit our concern here to the performance impacts of systems/mechanical contrivances, and not contesting values. Maybe you don’t care about improving engine performance- and that’s fine; other folks do, and that’s OK, too. Still, we don’t hear rationalizations for why we shouldn’t care about oil clogged air filters or constricted air flow as we are with emissions. The cause has everything to do with the rider and nothing to do with the bike; how about we just focus on the bike? |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by batman on 02/17/20 at 09:31:52 Maybe you should focus on your bike ,and show us the way. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Mavigogun on 02/17/20 at 13:21:24 An honest review of posts to this thread demonstrates clearly enough who has been ‘focused on the bike’, Bat- and when that goal has been obfuscated. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by batman on 02/17/20 at 22:06:52 While I don't wish to obfuscate , I would say that most of us have reached the realization that the Savage is designed on 1970's tech. Your thought of leading the breather discharge to the exhaust system is a dream , unless you intend to pump it into the exhaust , and the bike has neither the hP or the electric output to do either, nor a catalyst to run it through. Running next to the exhaust ? I doubt it would get hot enough to do more than the piston does now, being ignition temperature has to be 3000F + . |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Mavigogun on 02/18/20 at 20:00:26 The point isn’t “to do more than the piston does now”- it’s to avoid having the piston/cylinder do the work of burning crankcase vapors at all. No “dream”, There’s a long history of folks eschewing the liabilities of a catalytic converter, routing crankcase vapors to the exhaust for combustion, and contriving the introduction to draw the vented gas without a pump. I learned this with only a few minutes of investigation- thanks Google. My exhaust has been seen to glow from the open end, and regularly features detonated gasses belched past the cylinder. I understand this to be characteristic Savage performance; a source other than imagination for why we can’t harness it to mitigate emissions would be welcome. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by batman on 02/18/20 at 23:56:25 Glowing exhaust isn't normal ,it's a sign that the bike is overheating from running to lean, or from lack of oil, that and running the bike at high speed has most likely accelerated piston ring wear ,and you will probably continue to see high oil usage. I would be much more concerned with that, than routing the crank case breather, the oil is most likely already leaving your tailpipe past your piston rings or am I being to obtuse. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Mavigogun on 02/19/20 at 05:07:03 The topic of running hot from lean mixture is a worthy one, as is the performance of this most common after market exhaust -but so is confronting the breather box, and considering alternatives and performance consequences of modification... and is the primary topic of this thread. Regardless of the possible peculiarities of my bike, it seems premature to speculate insufficient temperature at the exhaust of Savages in general for employing this alternative to in-engine emission combustion. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by batman on 02/19/20 at 11:04:50 Don't fix what isn't broken . DBM was forced to do something different due to his build and extremely high rpm. You are not. End of story. |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Serowbot on 02/28/20 at 12:15:55 CC breather |
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Title: Re: Breather Blues Post by Tacopimp on 04/21/20 at 10:33:39 7167706D75606D76020 wrote:
How do you have that secured right there? |
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