SuzukiSavage.com - Savage only tops out at 60

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Re: Savage only tops out at 60
Reply #150 - 05/19/15 at 10:49:09

Regardless of whether you push or pull... What you are doing is inputting pressure in the opposite direction of the turn...
You will turn the bars slightly left, to initiate a right turn,.. and left to initiate a right...

What this does, is put the contact patch of your front tire, from the center of the tire, to one with diminished circumference on in the direction you are turning. Once you are on that part of the tire, and leaned, your bars will shift to turning right in a right turn,... or left in a left...
It's the same reason that a car turning right has slower rotation on right wheels than the left... (if both wheels went the same speed, the car wouldn't turn... it would plow)...

I explained that really badly... Embarrassed

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Gary_in_NJ

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Re: Savage only tops out at 60
Reply #151 - 05/19/15 at 10:59:02

Kenny,

Before I get into the weeds explaining counter-steering, know this - you're already doing it - you just may not know it.

"Push right, go right" means if you apply forward pressure on the right control bar, you will go right. In other words turn left to go right. Don't believe me? Go out for a short ride and get above 25-30 mph (where the handlebar force begins to increase). Push right and go right. Go ahead and try it...I'll wait.

Now, if you were on a trike or a quad, pushing right on the right bar WILL cause you to go left...but we're not on a trike or quad. On a single track vehicle (which a motorcycle is) the force or physics involved is gyroscopic precession.

In order for a motorcycle to turn, it has to lean into the direction of the turn. The force applied to the bars is acted on at a 90 degree angle from where the force is applied.

Any parent that has taught his child to ride a bicycle has seen the effects of counter steering. For six months or a year your child has been riding with training wheels - essentially making the bike a quad (four wheels). The day you remove the training wheels you help your child get up to speed by running along side the bike..you give them that gentle push-off yelling the word "peddle"...they get about 10 feet from you and the bike begins to drift in one direction and they begin to fall in the complete opposite direction. What happened? Simple, the child began a correction in the direction that they wanted, counter-steering for the first time. This caused the exact opposite reaction, they panicked and threw themselves off of the seemingly out of control machine. After a few more tries their brain subconsciously figures out counter-steering and, still shaky, they begin to control the bicycle.

Knowing how counter-steering works is essential, especially during emergency maneuvers. This is the very reason motorcyclists will steer right into the object or animal that they are trying to avoid. With little formal understanding or training the reaction is a quick turn of the bars away from the threat...which drives them right to it.

Being aware of the control inputs (not just subconsciously but consciously) is important for both routine and emergency handling of the machine.

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Gary_in_NJ Serious Thumper Offline LS650 Cafe Racer Posts: 2626 Amongst the Twisty Roads	Re: Savage only tops out at 60 Reply #152 - 05/19/15 at 11:05:46 Serowbot wrote on 05/19/15 at 10:49:09: Once you are on that part of the tire, and leaned, your bars will shift to turning right in a right turn,... or left in a left... No entirely true. The photo below is a sustained turn..and extreme. But the rider needs to hold this input to continue on his current path.
Back to top	countersteering.jpg A life-time student of motorcycling. LS650 Cafe, DRZ400SM, FZ6N, SV650S, CB900C, Ducati ST2, CB550F-SS My LS650=> http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/Left.JPG IP Logged

Kenny G

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Re: Savage only tops out at 60
Reply #153 - 05/19/15 at 11:25:39

"Go down a smooth, straight road at a comfortable speed. Keep your hand on the throttle, and take your clutch hand (left) off the bars......and using the index finger on your left hand, gently apply a bit of pressure on the left handlebar grip. Be ready for the bike to start turning to toward the centerline....even though you are pushing in the opposite direction."

Which way does one apply the pressure? Forward or Down?

Kenny G

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Re: Savage only tops out at 60
Reply #154 - 05/19/15 at 11:27:05

Kenny G wrote on 05/19/15 at 11:25:39:

"Go down a smooth, straight road at a comfortable speed. Keep your hand on the throttle, and take your clutch hand (left) off the bars......and using the index finger on your left hand, gently apply a bit of pressure on the left handlebar grip. Be ready for the bike to start turning to toward the centerline....even though you are pushing in the opposite direction."

Which way does one apply the pressure? Forward or Down?

Kenny G

Forward...........the direction that the handlebars/forks can turn.

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Re: Savage only tops out at 60
Reply #155 - 05/19/15 at 11:35:51

Kenny G wrote on 05/19/15 at 11:25:39:

"Go down a smooth, straight road at a comfortable speed. Keep your hand on the throttle, and take your clutch hand (left) off the bars......and using the index finger on your left hand, gently apply a bit of pressure on the left handlebar grip. Be ready for the bike to start turning to toward the centerline....even though you are pushing in the opposite direction."

Which way does one apply the pressure? Forward or Down?

Kenny G

Forward... to turn the bars.

Counter steering means just that turning the opposite way to initiate a turn... to initiate a turn, not maintain it.
Sooner or later you'll turn the bars in the direction of the turn to maintain your balance and keep the rubber side down.

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Gary_in_NJ

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Re: Savage only tops out at 60
Reply #156 - 05/19/15 at 12:02:29

verslagen1 wrote on 05/19/15 at 11:35:51:
Sooner or later you'll turn the bars in the direction of the turn to maintain your balance and keep the rubber side down.

That's twice now I've seen this, and it simply isn't true. As soon as you begin to release pressure on the opposite bar, the bike will stand up. At no point does counter-steering revert to non-counter-steering.

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Re: Savage only tops out at 60
Reply #157 - 05/19/15 at 12:03:46

Thank you for the tips. I used to ride my brothers moped, if that counts. The whole counter steering argument is useless. You don't have to think about it, thats just what happens. You don't think about counter steering it just does it. And yeah,other drivers can be real A-holes. I've been cut off twice in the past two weeks, and a few days ago some guy didn't even yield and almost hit me. Luckily I honked at him and put my arm up, maybe he got the message.

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Re: Savage only tops out at 60
Reply #158 - 05/19/15 at 12:35:02

rtebbs8996 wrote on 05/19/15 at 12:03:46:

Thank you for the tips. I used to ride my brothers moped, if that counts. The whole counter steering argument is useless. You don't have to think about it, thats just what happens. You don't think about counter steering it just does it.

Well Yes....and no.

You can ride a bike or motorcycle without knowing about countersteering - but once you become aware of it, understand what the process is, experiment with it a bit, and learn to use it to your advantage - you will be a better rider.

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Re: Savage only tops out at 60
Reply #159 - 05/19/15 at 12:39:42

Gary_in_NJ wrote on 05/19/15 at 12:02:29:

verslagen1 wrote on 05/19/15 at 11:35:51:
Sooner or later you'll turn the bars in the direction of the turn to maintain your balance and keep the rubber side down.

That's twice now I've seen this, and it simply isn't true. As soon as you begin to release pressure on the opposite bar, the bike will stand up. At no point does counter-steering revert to non-counter-steering.

Interesting.....so if I am in a corner and release the pressure on the bars the bike will stand up on it's own? I am aware that I knowingly apply pressure to bring the bike up quickly.....but I never tried just letting it come up on it's own.

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Re: Savage only tops out at 60
Reply #160 - 05/19/15 at 12:48:17

Gary_in_NJ wrote on 05/19/15 at 12:02:29:

verslagen1 wrote on 05/19/15 at 11:35:51:
Sooner or later you'll turn the bars in the direction of the turn to maintain your balance and keep the rubber side down.

That's twice now I've seen this, and it simply isn't true. As soon as you begin to release pressure on the opposite bar, the bike will stand up. At no point does counter-steering revert to non-counter-steering.

Not meant to say once in a turn you revert to steering like a tricycle.

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Gary_in_NJ

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Re: Savage only tops out at 60
Reply #161 - 05/19/15 at 13:04:10

Dave wrote on 05/19/15 at 12:39:42:

Interesting.....so if I am in a corner and release the pressure on the bars the bike will stand up on it's own? I am aware that I knowingly apply pressure to bring the bike up quickly.....but I never tried just letting it come up on it's own.

Sorrta depends on rake and trail and how stable the bike is once leaned over. A raked out bike will want to return to straight up (typical LS650). It also requires more force to initiate a turn. A sport bike (or an LS650 cafe conversion) with 24 or 25 degree rake will go where you tell it, so it will require a pull on the inside bar (or push on the outside) to change directions. This is why some people, especially those coming from a cruiser, find sport bikes to be twitchy.

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Kenny G

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Re: Savage only tops out at 60
Reply #162 - 05/19/15 at 13:09:06

I seldom ride with other guys, but when I do it is to show them the rural roads of North Texas. I always lead the way since I am familiar with the roads. I do have to slow down or stop every now and then to let some of the guys catch up. On the way home I make another guy lead and I never have any trouble keeping up with the other guys who are usually a half century younger than I am.

Almost all the above mentioned guys have taken a riders safety course and I hear them talking about counter-steering when we eat lunch. I probably started out counter-steering on a bicycle since I never had training wheels.

The next time I am out riding I am going to try "pushing" on the handle bars, now that I know which way to push, and see if it changes my speed any.

Kenny G

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OK.... so what's the
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Re: Savage only tops out at 60
Reply #163 - 05/19/15 at 13:22:42

We've officially highjacked this thread... Grin

...
Gary_in_NJ wrote on 05/19/15 at 11:05:46:

Serowbot wrote on 05/19/15 at 10:49:09:
Once you are on that part of the tire, and leaned, your bars will shift to turning right in a right turn,... or left in a left...

No entirely true. The photo below is a sustained turn..and extreme. But the rider needs to hold this input to continue on his current path.

Gary,.. that guy is in a slide... In a slide you must steer into the the slide or you go down... That's called "being crossed up"...

Normal riding, without sliding out the rear tire,... you initiate the turn with countersteering, but once the bike is leaned over you do steer in the direction of the turn...
Watch next time you ride... Wink

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Watch from 1:30 in this video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWuTcJcqAng

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Gary_in_NJ

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Re: Savage only tops out at 60
Reply #164 - 05/19/15 at 16:21:40

So I just came in from a 25 mile ride on the cafe racer. Here's what I can confirm. Once in a turned (leaned), the bike will hold that angle until a command is made to return the bike to upright. I took my hands off the bars mid turn, and sure enough, nothing changed.

Great video. The guy in the green shirt is Keith Code from California Superbike School. I've seen that video many times and it illustrates counter steering perfectly. There is NO steering with the turn once in the turn. Watch it again. The pointer moving in the direction of the turn is when the rider is standing the bike up, or counter steering in the other direction to turn the other way.

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