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Seeking advice on clutch replacment (Read 5041 times)
BuckRYCA
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #15 - 05/06/10 at 13:53:05
 
I was reading through the Suzuki/Clymer Manual Errors section (get there by going to Technical Documents/Reference and explore the Table of Contents.)

Guess what I found? -  Clymer's has references to the the #1 and #2 fiber clutch plates reversed.

So if you look at what I measured for our replaced clutch fiber plates, you'll see that they did not exceed the Wear Limit.


With the correction here's how the old plates measured:
Clutch fiber plate #1 (1 of these)
0.136"               Wear Limit 0.124"

Clutch fiber plate #2 (5 of these)
~0.116" each     Wear Limit 0.103"




It still holds that no one has worn out a Savage clutch on this forum. However, the plates we replaced were well glazed, so I'm still sending them off to OldFeller for possible salvaging.  

There's seems to be some dsylexia at Clymer's.



__________________________________________________________

Here's Verslagen's entry in the Errors section that points out the error in the Clymer's manual on identifying the clutch fiber plates:
Re: Suzuki/Clymer Manual Errors
Reply #10 - 01/10/09 at 12:22:53    



Direct from an '86 SSM for a LS650.

OK, working from the clutch basket, item 14 (the round thingy that looks like someones crown)
Item 12 (aka plate 1, skinny plate) goes on 1st.  Followed by 4 others.
Then item 10 (aka plate 2, fat plate) goes on last.  And the wave washer sits inside it.

And checked it against an '86-'88 Clymer, and has them identified backwards in the exploded diagram.  Another documented error.  
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« Last Edit: 06/15/10 at 07:53:46 by BuckRYCA »  

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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #16 - 05/06/10 at 14:50:01
 
Well, what I will do when the plates arrive is put them in a Corningware dish with some gasoline, cover it tightly with tin foil and let it sit for 24-48 hours.  

Then I will hot water rinse off the gas, then soak the plates with hot soapy water for another 24 hours.  Then I will scrub them again and rinse in hot water and towel dry all the plates, followed by a day or so per side of sunshine on the fiber plates to allow for thorough drying.

Solvent soluble crap and oils will come off in the gasoline, water/soap emuslifiable items will come off in hot soapy water and hot water rinse.

This leaves only the ceramic like surface glazing compounds which will be treated to some 220 grit paper and a finishing sander.  Nothing will remove them but pure mechanical abrasion.  

I will sand very lightly on the fiber plates and quit just as soon as the color changes.   The steel plates will get roughed up pretty good as they can use a total resurfacing job (remove all the old wear grooves).

Then the steel plates get oiled and put in a separate baggie.  The fibers go in all fluffy & dry into another baggie for long term storage.

Now, when you run through the various clutch rod lengths you will find you have enough room for another steel and another fiber plate in your clutch basket as the entire stack height is considerably shorter now.

Adding in a pair of used steel and fiber plates (which may have more meat than your existing fiber plates by then) then proceed to run the clutch swapping out clutch rods as needed until you start to get pure tee bald plates with no remaining fiber on them at all.

Replace bald plates as needed.

This is no real extra work involved here to you as you have to take the side cover off periodically to tune the clutch rods and keep an eye on your cam chain & tensioner anyway.

The cheapest replacement clutch ever found for our Savages was $40 for just the fiber plates from a close out house.   $70 was a more common price for standard plates with some old kevlars being located on ebay for the older SV650 bikes for about that same money several years ago.

$110 is below typical money for a full Barnett Clutch pack with steels and springs and all -- it is a nice clutch system.

But ya see, mine will be a "free" Yoda brand high performance clutch pack -- the extra plates offering extra torque carrying capacity.

Wink
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #17 - 05/12/10 at 11:26:33
 

Buck, I got them -- they are soaking in gasoline as we speak.  

Thanks,

Oldfeller
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #18 - 05/13/10 at 13:09:49
 

Here is Buck's clutch pack after cleaning and sanding.  He did have some energy star "slick stuff" on the steel plates and the surface of the fibers required roughing slightly to get rid of the last traces of the slick stuff on the fibers.

Funny thing, after soaking in gasoline for two days and then repeated scrubs with hot soapy water, drying in the sun then a light sanding the fiber plates measured .1195"-.1200" on the 5 thin plates and .1400" on the one fat plate.

Permit me to translate into good old plain biker English -- only .0005" worth of wear on one plate from brand new and I likely did most of that myself with the finishing sander.

Why did the fiber plates grow some?   Yeah, they grew or fattened up a bit due to rehydration of the cork during the soak and wash cycles.  You soak the corks in hot soapy water scrubbing them with a brush then you dry them very completely after a good hot water rinse.  It is all part of the recovery process.)



So, as Buck said himself we still haven't worn out a clutch pack here on the list.   This spring we have seen what 3-4 clutch packs replaced due to greedy repair shops and one clutch pack replaced due to energy star additive contamination from the use of car oils.

So folks, please look at your oil cans and bottles for that nasty little energy conserving star symbol and don't use the stuff in your Savage -- it can screw your clutch up and cost you (at a bare minimum) $18 for a side gasket and a quart of gasoline and some sand paper to repair the issue once you realize you have it.

Rotella T in the white jug is cheaper than the stuff you used to kill your bike and it is a known good Savage oil.   Rotella T6 Synthetic is simply better oil (better in a whole lot of ways) so if you want synthetic consider the big blue jug instead.

Because it is a diesel oil Rotella has strong anti-foam and soot suspension packages in it that were intended to free float and suspend soot particles for 100,000 miles -- but in your Savage these packages will clean out all the crap in your engine and help remove any of the past sins with any energy star compounds that might have been used by the previous owner.

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« Last Edit: 05/16/10 at 09:29:01 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #19 - 06/14/10 at 21:27:19
 
Good thread!

Here's a reference thread that dovetails nicely into the discussion here:

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1246935676/0
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #20 - 06/15/10 at 02:44:53
 
No one has ever worn out a clutch pack around here yet (to service specs anyway)

Has anyone worn a cam chain out to spec? Seems the tensioner lets go B4 the "stretch" on the chain is maxed out.

Yea, this clutch is toast, but how much of the wear is due to riding & how much is due to the wrong oil making it slip & cook itself?
As` was noted, the rod looks cooked. Any idea if there is a danger of damage (outside the clutch disks themselves) from the heat of those disks slipping?
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #21 - 06/15/10 at 03:44:35
 

Further posts by Buck indicate he had a loose clutch basket main nut which may have contributed to this clutch being replaced when he did it.   I would think all the slick goop on his steel plates was reason enough, but hey I was just the one sanding on the slick goop.

Yes, clutch push rods wear down and need replacing.  They are readily calipered items though, so any time you take the side plate off you should check yours for real length.  

I have never personally seen a bent push rod, I have seen some with a little bit of wear on the sides from rubbing inside the hole on the ball bearing center piece.   I think the push rod material is far too hard to bend, it would snap first.

Buying a 45.5 and a 46.5 push rod to have on hand seems to be a reasonable prevention/maintenance item.

Oil choice counts -- stay away from the energy star marked car oils.

If you use a Slavy extension on your cam chain tensioner, then you should be able to take your cam chain more towards the technical wear out stretch that Borg Warner considers "worn out".  

But face it, when we correctly use them nice little second hole extenders until the chain literally hits up against itself, that's all she wrote for that chain for use in this particular motorcycle engine.  No one has considered it worth while to play any games with the chain guides themselves beyond re-bending the worn ones a bit to optimize the installation of a new chain.



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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #22 - 06/15/10 at 06:55:19
 
Ok. So here's the deal. I had a slipping clutch (pretty bad). Took it out and cleaned it as Oldfellers instructions. Put it back together and it now only slips when cold. Once the bike is good and warmed up it doesn't seem to slip at all. The release arm has plenty of free play with the cable unhooked and is within the marks on the case. It also has plenty of free play once the cable is hooked. I'm trying to understand where the longer and shorter rods come into play. Seems to me that there would be no use for a shorter rod as I have freeplay at the release arm now. If I use a longer rod it would only take up a little free play at the release arm and only assist in disengaging the clutch and possibly take away all the freeplay and actually hold the clutch from engaging all the way. I have plenty of adjustment in the cable if needed. I'm sorry I didn't measure anything. Is it possible that I just need new springs. Also just so I understand this "push rod thing" clearly.

I would only need a shorter rod if the one I had in was holding the clutch assembly from totally engaging. Meaning no freeplay at the release arm itself.

I would need a longer arm if the clutch disks where so thick that there wasn't enough throw in the arm to totally disengage the clutch. In other words. A longer arm is needed when there is so much free play at the release lever that you wouldn't be able to adjust that much slack out of the cable itself in order to disengage the clutch all the way.

As your clutch disks wear (get thinner). You may need a shorter rod. Right? A brand new clutch stack (thicker) may require one of the longer rods. Right?


Hope this all makes sense.
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #23 - 06/15/10 at 07:13:14
 

Nope, you got it backwards ....  (don't feel special, I was all confused originally too)

Think of the clutch as a stack that gets shorter as the plates wear.

The stack of plates has a cover over it, fixed in space -- it never moves.

There is an eccentric on the cover that pushes on the rod with a very limited throw range.

There is a rod that bridges from the "fixed up in space" eccentric to the ever shortening clutch stack.

As the clutch stack gets shorter, the rod must get longer to bridge the increasing gap and transfer that limited throw eccentric motion to the clutch pack stack.

=============

Reality is a little more complicated, but this allows you to understand the main two elements you are dealing with 1) a quarter inch throw eccentric that is fixed up in space over a shrinking clutch pack 2) and a rod that must get longer as the pack wears down.  

The fact that the clutch releases by pushing the back of the pack away from the front of the pack through a ball bearing plate that pushes on the 4 column legs to move the back plate "backwards" is really of no importance and has only served to confuse the heck out of a lot of people who have tried to understand the clutch.

Me, I was so bumfuzzled originally I actually made up a 1mm shorter rod and a 1mm longer long rod and actually tried both out to PROVE to myself the whichness of the why.

"quote"



I made my 1mm longer rod from 1/4 inch drill rod that I had on hand.  There is enough clearance in the clutch hole to readily accommodate the larger size.

======================

Note from the FUTURE again ....  The standard hardware drill rod material is too soft (wears too easily on the ends) and it cannot be hardened in a reliable fashion that will not get hot in use and turn blue and resoften on you.  

Standard drill rod will not work, period
.   Go get you some full hardened 6mm real parts from Suzuki, or if you are stubborn like me go get a quarter inch diameter piece of M-2 HHS lathe tool bit material and make your push rod out of something that WILL NOT wear out or heat soften under any circumstances.

======================[/highlight]



This is the shorter rod installed, it moves the lever in the wrong direction removing all the adjustment travel and rendering the clutch "worn out".  Shorter is incorrect, the cutch rods must be made LONGER.



Here is the 1mm longer rod, suddenly the same 13,000 mile old clutch pack is "new" again with all of the adjustment travel available again.  Longer is the correct direction and 1mm step lengths are obviously the correct stepping distance.  And now the "which way does it go?" question is finally answered.


=============
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #24 - 06/15/10 at 08:16:26
 


I quickly drew up this on paint. Is this correct? If so then what you're saying is backwards. Just trying to fully understand this. On my 87 it's the inner pressure plate that moves in and out like shown in this diagram. The pushrod pushs on the square that compresses all the springs and pushes the inner pressure plate as well. As the clutch plates wear it would move the pressure plate closer to the case making a shorter rod nessassary. If I added a extra disk and friction plate I would need a longer push rod. If my clutch discs were worn thinner I would need a shorter rod.
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #25 - 06/15/10 at 10:10:29
 
Rich,

I keep a torn apart engine on my desk and still I had enough questions & doubts to actually prompt me physically go do it BOTH WAYS as an experiment.  

It isn't going to make sense based on your illustration because you haven't drawn in all the components and their interrelations.


http://fiche.ronayers.com/Index.cfm/Module/Main/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/Mak...


In short, don't expect to understand it until you have gone & done it.  I sure didn't.

The back plate of the clutch is floating inside a basket which is hard mounted to a power shaft running thru the crank cases.  The disengagement throw actually moves the back plate of the clutch pack, but the floating pack itself moves in the basket, perhaps maybe driven by the large bevel washer, and it settles under that return bevel spring pressure inside the basket as it wears.  

Yes, this is confusing as sin to talk about

Adding a plate would make the pack taller/longer and it would require shortening the rod.

Normal wear of the plates (shortening the pack) requires lengthening the rod.

Suzuki sells 3 rod lengths 44.5, 45.5 and 46.5mm long.  I am currently using a custom made M-2 HSS rod that is currently 46.32mm long which is my second "longer" rod.
 
Some here say their bike came with the 45.5 length as stock, so this length thing may also be a plate supplier stack up related item.

Be aware that the rods themselves get wear on the ends and get worn shorter with normal use/wear, so the rod that you measure today might have been slightly longer originally.

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« Last Edit: 06/19/10 at 08:07:53 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #26 - 06/15/10 at 12:35:04
 
So... from my original post.... what do I need to keep my clutch from slipping when it's cold?

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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #27 - 06/15/10 at 14:39:07
 

What weight oil do you use?    If it is 20w50 consider shifting to a 10w40 or a 5w40 synthetic to see if the cold slip issue moderates then slowly goes away.

Consider shifting to a diesel based oil as the additive packages in diesel oils will clean out of our engine the leftovers from your energy star (or whatever) contamination that you are recovering from.   Just be aware that your oil will get "dirty" real quick the first few crankcase fulls as the stuff really does strip the crap out of your engine (and out of your clutch pack).

You can shim your springs with one flat washer per post.  This does nothing harmful to a clutch, nor does it remove any service life.  The clamping boost is moderate but real.

Take a shorter rod and a longer rod and do the "move the lever between the lines" test yourself next time you are in there.  Nothing like "seeing is believing" to remove any lagging doubts.
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« Last Edit: 06/16/10 at 02:16:07 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #28 - 06/16/10 at 07:03:38
 
Yea. I'm using a 20w 50 now. I just bored it .05 over and put a new piston in. (bought it all torn apart with a bad piston) Changed oil three times now and the next will be with Rotella T6 Synthetic. Should be broke in well enough by then. Hopefully that will help with the clutch. I also just ordered a EBC HEAVY DUTY CLUTCH SPRING SET off of Ebay for 12.39. I figured for that price it couldn't hurt. Should I also shim the new springs?

When I do the springs I'll see for myself if a longer or shorter rod is needed as your clutch wears. I still say "as your clutch wears a shorter rod will be needed" but I will do the test myself and take pictures. May prove myself wrong. I love it when that happens  Smiley Cause it just doesn't happen that often.  Smiley And definately not afraid to admit it when it does.  Smiley
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #29 - 06/16/10 at 07:37:51
 
Just so that we're clear on what we're arguing about. A rod that is too short will show the release arm above the marks. A rod that is too long will show the release arm below the marks. There's no question about that. The question is... Which way does the release arm move as the clutch plates wear? If it moves down a shorter rod will be needed as they wear. If it moves up a longer rod will be needed.

I believe that as the clutch plates wear the release arm will move down below the marks therefore needing a shorter rod to move the release arm back up into the range of the marks.
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