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Seeking advice on clutch replacment (Read 4694 times)
BuckRYCA
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Seeking advice on clutch replacment
04/07/10 at 15:20:38
 
My daughter and I did some wrenching today. She recently got a '96 Savage with 12,400 miles (she is the third owner).

We installed a VerSlavy as the cam chain tensioner was at 19.5mm extension (from what I gather 18mm is the worry point and over 23mm may result in the destruction of the engine). That went OK although we think Suzuki should have corrected this design issue a while ago.

The clutch has been slipping under hard acceleration. We found the clutch springs to be longer than the wear limit (that means they're OK; shorter than the wear limit is bad), but as we already made the purchase we put in EBC clutch springs, advertised as 10% stiffer than stock. This did not solve the slipping, so it's time to inspect and likely replace the clutch fiber and steel plates. Does anyone have any advice/tips on replacing the clutch? I've heard of a coin gear jamming trick to allow loosening of the clutch nut. Exactly which gears do you jam to do this? Also I understand it is important to install the engine oil gear (Ron Ayers 16321-24B00) in the correct orientation so as not to oil starve the engine. We will go slow and take many photos in the hope that we get it right.
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« Last Edit: 06/15/10 at 07:51:30 by BuckRYCA »  

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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #1 - 04/07/10 at 15:27:12
 
couple things to check before you replace...
check for diggers post on clutch rods... There's a mark on the outside of the case where the clutch lever is (just behind the oil level window)
Not sure of the requirement (mines starting to slip too)
There are 3 different lengths of that rod to keep the lever in adjustment.  Getting outside of these marks may cause you to damage the clutch actuation cam.
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BuckRYCA
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #2 - 04/07/10 at 22:20:01
 
I just realized that the default timeframe on a Search (textbox with the magnifying glass icon on upper right of a forum page) is one week. When I changed the timeframe to 'all posts' I got all the advice I need on clutch replacement -- Thank you, Forum members thumps and OldFeller.

BTW the clutch lever is between the two marks on the case (marks are above the oil level window), the clutch cable is well lubricated (MotionPro cable luber) and moves freely, and we have the middle-sized clutch pushrod.

I'm ordering a Barnett clutch kit from an ebay retailer and hoping our experience installing it goes as good as thumps reported.
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« Last Edit: 04/08/10 at 11:01:10 by BuckRYCA »  

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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #3 - 04/08/10 at 08:44:44
 
I just did  the clutch rod replacement.  Stock rods are the middle length (45.5 mm).  I put the 46.5 in and it is like a new clutch.  Much more grab.  My 95 has 22K on her. Smiley
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #4 - 04/08/10 at 11:14:39
 
Maybe I'm not getting it? -- Suzuki offers 3 clutch pushrods in lengths of 45.5 +/- 1mm. The stocker is the middle length. When the clutch is completely engaged (rider's hand is off the lever) there should be no contact between the pushrod(whatever length it is) and its actuating cam because there's supposed to be a little freeplay in the clutch cable. My clutch is slipping when the bike is rolling, the clutch is completely engaged (I'm not touching the clutch lever), and I gas it. The engine revs but the acceleration doesn't match the revving. Really don't see how a longer pushrod would affect this slipping. I do see how a longer pushrod might help a dragging clutch (the clutch plates are not disengaging enough when the lever is pulled in). Am I missing something?
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #5 - 04/08/10 at 19:45:50
 
Think of it this way .....

Your mechanical clutch actuation arm has a very limited throw range, roughly 1/3 of the total wear stack up of the clutch pack as a matter of fact.

By changing the rods you are putting the actuation throw range right back into the sweet spot of the worn stack, thus allowing you further use of the same clutch pack.

Now, if you sprayed any solvents inside the cover when you had it off, you likely diluted / polluted the oil in the clutch pack and it will slip for a while until the oil is replaced by natural action.

==============

If you aren't buying any of this and insist on replacing your clutch plates, please save the old ones for me.  

I collect old worn out clutch plates for experimental purposes .......  

I gots this special engine I am building you see and it needs some special extra thin friction plates that I can build from sanding on your old worn out plates with a heavy duty finishing sander, plus a spare steel plate or two and I gets me a extra heavy duty clutch for my efforts.

Wink
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Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #6 - 04/08/10 at 20:47:59
 
BuckRYCA wrote on 04/08/10 at 11:14:39:
Maybe I'm not getting it? -- Suzuki offers 3 clutch pushrods in lengths of 45.5 +/- 1mm. The stocker is the middle length.... Really don't see how a longer pushrod would affect this slipping.... Am I missing something?

Only cause I haven't played with to know...
What if you needed the shorter rod?
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #7 - 04/09/10 at 05:04:03
 
Is this possibly an oil issue?  Somebody might have used the wrong oil for a wet clutch, and this could account for the slippage.
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #8 - 04/09/10 at 13:08:50
 
I appreciate everyone's responses. Thank you.

serenity3743: It may have been the wrong oil, but it's hard to know. That's the risk buying a used bike. I do know the clutch was slipping a little when we got it (11,500 miles) and 900 miles later it is slipping a lot. This is after two oil changes by us using oils that are known to work for motorcycles with wet clutches(800 miles on Mobil 1 4T 10W40 synthetic motorcycle oil and now 100 miles on Shell Rotella T 15W40 dino diesel oil).

OldFeller: I'm really curious to see what's up when we pull the clutch fibers/steels. I suspect they're goners. This would be consistent with oil becoming very dirty very quickly. The clutch pushrod is the the correct length (45.5mm), but that part of it that is inside the clutch basket is discolored as if overheated. If they're out of service specs and you still want them, I send them along. I like the idea of recycling.
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #9 - 04/09/10 at 18:39:15
 

Ah, that's the rub -- they won't be out of service specs.

No one has ever worn out a clutch pack around here yet (to service specs anyway)

You will be packing up stuff you suspect might still be useful if you do decide to swap it out.

Serenity has made a very good point -- energy star friction modifiers in car oils can kill a clutch pack.

=============

To unkill them for energy star friction modifiers, use a strong solvent like gasoline to soak the friction plates for several days, scrubbing periodically.

Then dry them in the sun for a few days on each side.

Then sand them with a finishing sander very lightly with 220 medium grit paper to rough them up a bit (remove glazing).

Do the same thing to the steel friction plates to get any glaze off of them.

Then use the darn things again !!!

Only ship them to me when they are worn out !!
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« Last Edit: 04/10/10 at 04:20:43 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #10 - 04/10/10 at 06:57:02
 
Before you go the new clutch pack way, invest in a $4.00 p[art and get the longer push rod.  My clutch was BAD ...no adjustment, slipping (due to trying to adjust) etc.  After putting the new rod in, it is golden.


Much easier to do and quicker.  Oh, my push rod looked a little "cooked" too.  I think it is the way of things.
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #11 - 04/10/10 at 07:40:13
 
You see, both Toymaker and I both bought new clutch packs while investigating the mysterious "Why do our clutches die so durn soon?" phenomena which was a common list question a year or so back in time, closely followed by its corollary question "Why the heck did my new brand clutch pack only last a year?  This really Sux!! ".

Nether one of us have ever had to put the new clutch plates in yet .... after a whole year of nasty abuse on my part and whatever Toymaker did to his in the mean time as well.   Correct oils and new rods made all the difference.

Last Dragon run we were soaking in Toymaker's pool when I proposed the clutch rod theory, which we then began posting about and were then told by other members that in the full Suzuki Savage shop manual part numbers were listed for the extra length rods.  

Well hells bells boys, why wasn't this know years ago ???   I can't count the number of clutches that we used to buy for NO REASON other than "missing information" on the subject.


===========



Now it is old history -- your clutch isn't really shot, it just needs some attention.

Next, when you finally get close to "service limit"  jest slap another steel plate in the pack and put in another worn fiber plate to stack up within the overall basket envelope and shucks, you now have a "high performance" extra horsepower clutch pack for free that you can run until the fiber plates literally go bald on you.   And only the good Lord knows how long that will take to happen .....

So, now you know why I collect old clutch parts.
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Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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BuckRYCA
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #12 - 05/01/10 at 18:11:02
 
My daughter and I replaced the clutch today. It was straightforward following the Clymer's manual. I did purchase an electric impact wrench as I was anticipating a problem getting the clutch nut off, but it was not necessary. To remove the clutch nut, we put the bike into second, blocked the leading edge of the rear tire with a 4"x4", applied the rear brake, and used a breaker bar (with the 32mm socket). When using a torque wrench to put the nut back in place, do the same except put the 4"x4" block on the trailing edge of the rear tire.

I've got photos, but really it was fairly simple, 2-3 hours going slowly and carefully. It's useful to pivot the rear brake out of the way instead of removing it altogether to enable clutch case removal (loosen rear nut, remove nut on front bolt, push bolt in ~ 1"" to clear the brake assembly, and pivot the assembly down).

We did soak the fiber plates for a couple of days in Shell Rotella Synthetic 5W40 (JASO MA2 certified--OK for wet clutches) and that's the oil we used for the re-fill.

We put in a Barnett kit (6 fiber plates, 5 steel plates, and four springs) for $110 on eBay (listed for $130, but with a 'Make an Offer' option). The difference is pronounced. It's all very satisfying. Now when the throttle is opened, the engine pulls -- no more clutch slippage. Hooray!

As for what we found, the both the old clutch fiber and steel plates were glazed with a brownish deposit that may come off with work and nasty solvents, but we didn't bother. I suspect the previous owners did not adjust the clutch properly and/or used energy-conserving oil.

The stock clutch pushrod (45.4mm) caused the actuator arm to be within, but on the high side, of the two case markings. The 1mm longer pushrod resulted in  a more centered actuator arm position, so we that's the one we used.

Here's how the old plates measured:
Clutch fiber plate #1 (1 of these)
0.136"    Wear Limit 0.103"

Clutch fiber plate #2 (5 of these)
~0.116" each     Wear Limit 0.124"

So, according to the Clymer's Wear Limit all five of the #2 fiber plates were shot.

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« Last Edit: 05/01/10 at 20:09:48 by BuckRYCA »  

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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #13 - 05/01/10 at 18:44:27
 
Hooray!   We finally got us a clutch that was worn out!

I trust you saved me the plates and are waiting for me to send you enough bucks to put them into a US postal service mailer.

You have a PM

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Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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BuckRYCA
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Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment
Reply #14 - 05/01/10 at 20:06:22
 
I'll be happy to send them your way.
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