|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Seeking advice on clutch replacment /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1270678838 Message started by BuckHMCC on 04/07/10 at 15:20:38 |
|
Title: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by BuckHMCC on 04/07/10 at 15:20:38 My daughter and I did some wrenching today. She recently got a '96 Savage with 12,400 miles (she is the third owner). We installed a VerSlavy as the cam chain tensioner was at 19.5mm extension (from what I gather 18mm is the worry point and over 23mm may result in the destruction of the engine). That went OK although we think Suzuki should have corrected this design issue a while ago. The clutch has been slipping under hard acceleration. We found the clutch springs to be longer than the wear limit (that means they're OK; shorter than the wear limit is bad), but as we already made the purchase we put in EBC clutch springs, advertised as 10% stiffer than stock. This did not solve the slipping, so it's time to inspect and likely replace the clutch fiber and steel plates. Does anyone have any advice/tips on replacing the clutch? I've heard of a coin gear jamming trick to allow loosening of the clutch nut. Exactly which gears do you jam to do this? Also I understand it is important to install the engine oil gear (Ron Ayers 16321-24B00) in the correct orientation so as not to oil starve the engine. We will go slow and take many photos in the hope that we get it right. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by verslagen1 on 04/07/10 at 15:27:12 couple things to check before you replace... check for diggers post on clutch rods... There's a mark on the outside of the case where the clutch lever is (just behind the oil level window) Not sure of the requirement (mines starting to slip too) There are 3 different lengths of that rod to keep the lever in adjustment. Getting outside of these marks may cause you to damage the clutch actuation cam. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by BuckHMCC on 04/07/10 at 22:20:01 I just realized that the default timeframe on a Search (textbox with the magnifying glass icon on upper right of a forum page) is one week. When I changed the timeframe to 'all posts' I got all the advice I need on clutch replacement -- Thank you, Forum members thumps and OldFeller. BTW the clutch lever is between the two marks on the case (marks are above the oil level window), the clutch cable is well lubricated (MotionPro cable luber) and moves freely, and we have the middle-sized clutch pushrod. I'm ordering a Barnett clutch kit from an ebay retailer and hoping our experience installing it goes as good as thumps reported. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Toymaker on 04/08/10 at 08:44:44 I just did the clutch rod replacement. Stock rods are the middle length (45.5 mm). I put the 46.5 in and it is like a new clutch. Much more grab. My 95 has 22K on her. :) |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by BuckHMCC on 04/08/10 at 11:14:39 Maybe I'm not getting it? -- Suzuki offers 3 clutch pushrods in lengths of 45.5 +/- 1mm. The stocker is the middle length. When the clutch is completely engaged (rider's hand is off the lever) there should be no contact between the pushrod(whatever length it is) and its actuating cam because there's supposed to be a little freeplay in the clutch cable. My clutch is slipping when the bike is rolling, the clutch is completely engaged (I'm not touching the clutch lever), and I gas it. The engine revs but the acceleration doesn't match the revving. Really don't see how a longer pushrod would affect this slipping. I do see how a longer pushrod might help a dragging clutch (the clutch plates are not disengaging enough when the lever is pulled in). Am I missing something? |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 04/08/10 at 19:45:50 Think of it this way ..... Your mechanical clutch actuation arm has a very limited throw range, roughly 1/3 of the total wear stack up of the clutch pack as a matter of fact. By changing the rods you are putting the actuation throw range right back into the sweet spot of the worn stack, thus allowing you further use of the same clutch pack. Now, if you sprayed any solvents inside the cover when you had it off, you likely diluted / polluted the oil in the clutch pack and it will slip for a while until the oil is replaced by natural action. ============== If you aren't buying any of this and insist on replacing your clutch plates, please save the old ones for me. I collect old worn out clutch plates for experimental purposes ....... I gots this special engine I am building you see and it needs some special extra thin friction plates that I can build from sanding on your old worn out plates with a heavy duty finishing sander, plus a spare steel plate or two and I gets me a extra heavy duty clutch for my efforts. ;) |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by verslagen1 on 04/08/10 at 20:47:59 003721290A0F0101420 wrote:
Only cause I haven't played with to know... What if you needed the shorter rod? |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by serenity3743 on 04/09/10 at 05:04:03 Is this possibly an oil issue? Somebody might have used the wrong oil for a wet clutch, and this could account for the slippage. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by BuckHMCC on 04/09/10 at 13:08:50 I appreciate everyone's responses. Thank you. serenity3743: It may have been the wrong oil, but it's hard to know. That's the risk buying a used bike. I do know the clutch was slipping a little when we got it (11,500 miles) and 900 miles later it is slipping a lot. This is after two oil changes by us using oils that are known to work for motorcycles with wet clutches(800 miles on Mobil 1 4T 10W40 synthetic motorcycle oil and now 100 miles on Shell Rotella T 15W40 dino diesel oil). OldFeller: I'm really curious to see what's up when we pull the clutch fibers/steels. I suspect they're goners. This would be consistent with oil becoming very dirty very quickly. The clutch pushrod is the the correct length (45.5mm), but that part of it that is inside the clutch basket is discolored as if overheated. If they're out of service specs and you still want them, I send them along. I like the idea of recycling. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 04/09/10 at 18:39:15 Ah, that's the rub -- they won't be out of service specs. No one has ever worn out a clutch pack around here yet (to service specs anyway) You will be packing up stuff you suspect might still be useful if you do decide to swap it out. Serenity has made a very good point -- energy star friction modifiers in car oils can kill a clutch pack. ============= To unkill them for energy star friction modifiers, use a strong solvent like gasoline to soak the friction plates for several days, scrubbing periodically. Then dry them in the sun for a few days on each side. Then sand them with a finishing sander very lightly with 220 medium grit paper to rough them up a bit (remove glazing). Do the same thing to the steel friction plates to get any glaze off of them. Then use the darn things again !!! Only ship them to me when they are worn out !! |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Toymaker on 04/10/10 at 06:57:02 Before you go the new clutch pack way, invest in a $4.00 p[art and get the longer push rod. My clutch was BAD ...no adjustment, slipping (due to trying to adjust) etc. After putting the new rod in, it is golden. Much easier to do and quicker. Oh, my push rod looked a little "cooked" too. I think it is the way of things. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 04/10/10 at 07:40:13 You see, both Toymaker and I both bought new clutch packs while investigating the mysterious "Why do our clutches die so durn soon?" phenomena which was a common list question a year or so back in time, closely followed by its corollary question "Why the heck did my new brand clutch pack only last a year? This really Sux!! ". Nether one of us have ever had to put the new clutch plates in yet .... after a whole year of nasty abuse on my part and whatever Toymaker did to his in the mean time as well. Correct oils and new rods made all the difference. Last Dragon run we were soaking in Toymaker's pool when I proposed the clutch rod theory, which we then began posting about and were then told by other members that in the full Suzuki Savage shop manual part numbers were listed for the extra length rods. Well hells bells boys, why wasn't this know years ago ??? I can't count the number of clutches that we used to buy for NO REASON other than "missing information" on the subject. =========== Now it is old history -- your clutch isn't really shot, it just needs some attention. Next, when you finally get close to "service limit" jest slap another steel plate in the pack and put in another worn fiber plate to stack up within the overall basket envelope and shucks, you now have a "high performance" extra horsepower clutch pack for free that you can run until the fiber plates literally go bald on you. And only the good Lord knows how long that will take to happen ..... So, now you know why I collect old clutch parts. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by BuckHMCC on 05/01/10 at 18:11:02 My daughter and I replaced the clutch today. It was straightforward following the Clymer's manual. I did purchase an electric impact wrench as I was anticipating a problem getting the clutch nut off, but it was not necessary. To remove the clutch nut, we put the bike into second, blocked the leading edge of the rear tire with a 4"x4", applied the rear brake, and used a breaker bar (with the 32mm socket). When using a torque wrench to put the nut back in place, do the same except put the 4"x4" block on the trailing edge of the rear tire. I've got photos, but really it was fairly simple, 2-3 hours going slowly and carefully. It's useful to pivot the rear brake out of the way instead of removing it altogether to enable clutch case removal (loosen rear nut, remove nut on front bolt, push bolt in ~ 1"" to clear the brake assembly, and pivot the assembly down). We did soak the fiber plates for a couple of days in Shell Rotella Synthetic 5W40 (JASO MA2 certified--OK for wet clutches) and that's the oil we used for the re-fill. We put in a Barnett kit (6 fiber plates, 5 steel plates, and four springs) for $110 on eBay (listed for $130, but with a 'Make an Offer' option). The difference is pronounced. It's all very satisfying. Now when the throttle is opened, the engine pulls -- no more clutch slippage. Hooray! As for what we found, the both the old clutch fiber and steel plates were glazed with a brownish deposit that may come off with work and nasty solvents, but we didn't bother. I suspect the previous owners did not adjust the clutch properly and/or used energy-conserving oil. The stock clutch pushrod (45.4mm) caused the actuator arm to be within, but on the high side, of the two case markings. The 1mm longer pushrod resulted in a more centered actuator arm position, so we that's the one we used. Here's how the old plates measured: Clutch fiber plate #1 (1 of these) 0.136" Wear Limit 0.103" Clutch fiber plate #2 (5 of these) ~0.116" each Wear Limit 0.124" So, according to the Clymer's Wear Limit all five of the #2 fiber plates were shot. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 05/01/10 at 18:44:27 Hooray! We finally got us a clutch that was worn out! I trust you saved me the plates and are waiting for me to send you enough bucks to put them into a US postal service mailer. You have a PM |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by BuckHMCC on 05/01/10 at 20:06:22 I'll be happy to send them your way. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by BuckHMCC on 05/06/10 at 13:53:05 I was reading through the Suzuki/Clymer Manual Errors section (get there by going to Technical Documents/Reference and explore the Table of Contents.) Guess what I found? - Clymer's has references to the the #1 and #2 fiber clutch plates reversed. So if you look at what I measured for our replaced clutch fiber plates, you'll see that they did not exceed the Wear Limit. With the correction here's how the old plates measured: Clutch fiber plate #1 (1 of these) 0.136" Wear Limit 0.124" Clutch fiber plate #2 (5 of these) ~0.116" each Wear Limit 0.103" It still holds that no one has worn out a Savage clutch on this forum. However, the plates we replaced were well glazed, so I'm still sending them off to OldFeller for possible salvaging. There's seems to be some dsylexia at Clymer's. __________________________________________________________ Here's Verslagen's entry in the Errors section that points out the error in the Clymer's manual on identifying the clutch fiber plates: Re: Suzuki/Clymer Manual Errors Reply #10 - 01/10/09 at 12:22:53 Direct from an '86 SSM for a LS650. OK, working from the clutch basket, item 14 (the round thingy that looks like someones crown) Item 12 (aka plate 1, skinny plate) goes on 1st. Followed by 4 others. Then item 10 (aka plate 2, fat plate) goes on last. And the wave washer sits inside it. And checked it against an '86-'88 Clymer, and has them identified backwards in the exploded diagram. Another documented error. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 05/06/10 at 14:50:01 Well, what I will do when the plates arrive is put them in a Corningware dish with some gasoline, cover it tightly with tin foil and let it sit for 24-48 hours. Then I will hot water rinse off the gas, then soak the plates with hot soapy water for another 24 hours. Then I will scrub them again and rinse in hot water and towel dry all the plates, followed by a day or so per side of sunshine on the fiber plates to allow for thorough drying. Solvent soluble crap and oils will come off in the gasoline, water/soap emuslifiable items will come off in hot soapy water and hot water rinse. This leaves only the ceramic like surface glazing compounds which will be treated to some 220 grit paper and a finishing sander. Nothing will remove them but pure mechanical abrasion. I will sand very lightly on the fiber plates and quit just as soon as the color changes. The steel plates will get roughed up pretty good as they can use a total resurfacing job (remove all the old wear grooves). Then the steel plates get oiled and put in a separate baggie. The fibers go in all fluffy & dry into another baggie for long term storage. Now, when you run through the various clutch rod lengths you will find you have enough room for another steel and another fiber plate in your clutch basket as the entire stack height is considerably shorter now. Adding in a pair of used steel and fiber plates (which may have more meat than your existing fiber plates by then) then proceed to run the clutch swapping out clutch rods as needed until you start to get pure tee bald plates with no remaining fiber on them at all. Replace bald plates as needed. This is no real extra work involved here to you as you have to take the side cover off periodically to tune the clutch rods and keep an eye on your cam chain & tensioner anyway. The cheapest replacement clutch ever found for our Savages was $40 for just the fiber plates from a close out house. $70 was a more common price for standard plates with some old kevlars being located on ebay for the older SV650 bikes for about that same money several years ago. $110 is below typical money for a full Barnett Clutch pack with steels and springs and all -- it is a nice clutch system. But ya see, mine will be a "free" Yoda brand high performance clutch pack -- the extra plates offering extra torque carrying capacity. ;) |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 05/12/10 at 11:26:33 Buck, I got them -- they are soaking in gasoline as we speak. Thanks, Oldfeller |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 05/13/10 at 13:09:49 Here is Buck's clutch pack after cleaning and sanding. He did have some energy star "slick stuff" on the steel plates and the surface of the fibers required roughing slightly to get rid of the last traces of the slick stuff on the fibers. Funny thing, after soaking in gasoline for two days and then repeated scrubs with hot soapy water, drying in the sun then a light sanding the fiber plates measured .1195"-.1200" on the 5 thin plates and .1400" on the one fat plate. Permit me to translate into good old plain biker English -- only .0005" worth of wear on one plate from brand new and I likely did most of that myself with the finishing sander. Why did the fiber plates grow some? Yeah, they grew or fattened up a bit due to rehydration of the cork during the soak and wash cycles. You soak the corks in hot soapy water scrubbing them with a brush then you dry them very completely after a good hot water rinse. It is all part of the recovery process.) http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Clutch2.JPG So, as Buck said himself we still haven't worn out a clutch pack here on the list. This spring we have seen what 3-4 clutch packs replaced due to greedy repair shops and one clutch pack replaced due to energy star additive contamination from the use of car oils. So folks, please look at your oil cans and bottles for that nasty little energy conserving star symbol and don't use the stuff in your Savage -- it can screw your clutch up and cost you (at a bare minimum) $18 for a side gasket and a quart of gasoline and some sand paper to repair the issue once you realize you have it. Rotella T in the white jug is cheaper than the stuff you used to kill your bike and it is a known good Savage oil. Rotella T6 Synthetic is simply better oil (better in a whole lot of ways) so if you want synthetic consider the big blue jug instead. Because it is a diesel oil Rotella has strong anti-foam and soot suspension packages in it that were intended to free float and suspend soot particles for 100,000 miles -- but in your Savage these packages will clean out all the crap in your engine and help remove any of the past sins with any energy star compounds that might have been used by the previous owner. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Digger on 06/14/10 at 21:27:19 Good thread! Here's a reference thread that dovetails nicely into the discussion here: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1246935676/0 |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/15/10 at 02:44:53 No one has ever worn out a clutch pack around here yet (to service specs anyway) Has anyone worn a cam chain out to spec? Seems the tensioner lets go B4 the "stretch" on the chain is maxed out. Yea, this clutch is toast, but how much of the wear is due to riding & how much is due to the wrong oil making it slip & cook itself? As` was noted, the rod looks cooked. Any idea if there is a danger of damage (outside the clutch disks themselves) from the heat of those disks slipping? |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 06/15/10 at 03:44:35 Further posts by Buck indicate he had a loose clutch basket main nut which may have contributed to this clutch being replaced when he did it. I would think all the slick goop on his steel plates was reason enough, but hey I was just the one sanding on the slick goop. Yes, clutch push rods wear down and need replacing. They are readily calipered items though, so any time you take the side plate off you should check yours for real length. I have never personally seen a bent push rod, I have seen some with a little bit of wear on the sides from rubbing inside the hole on the ball bearing center piece. I think the push rod material is far too hard to bend, it would snap first. Buying a 45.5 and a 46.5 push rod to have on hand seems to be a reasonable prevention/maintenance item. Oil choice counts -- stay away from the energy star marked car oils. If you use a Slavy extension on your cam chain tensioner, then you should be able to take your cam chain more towards the technical wear out stretch that Borg Warner considers "worn out". But face it, when we correctly use them nice little second hole extenders until the chain literally hits up against itself, that's all she wrote for that chain for use in this particular motorcycle engine. No one has considered it worth while to play any games with the chain guides themselves beyond re-bending the worn ones a bit to optimize the installation of a new chain. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by rich015 on 06/15/10 at 06:55:19 Ok. So here's the deal. I had a slipping clutch (pretty bad). Took it out and cleaned it as Oldfellers instructions. Put it back together and it now only slips when cold. Once the bike is good and warmed up it doesn't seem to slip at all. The release arm has plenty of free play with the cable unhooked and is within the marks on the case. It also has plenty of free play once the cable is hooked. I'm trying to understand where the longer and shorter rods come into play. Seems to me that there would be no use for a shorter rod as I have freeplay at the release arm now. If I use a longer rod it would only take up a little free play at the release arm and only assist in disengaging the clutch and possibly take away all the freeplay and actually hold the clutch from engaging all the way. I have plenty of adjustment in the cable if needed. I'm sorry I didn't measure anything. Is it possible that I just need new springs. Also just so I understand this "push rod thing" clearly. I would only need a shorter rod if the one I had in was holding the clutch assembly from totally engaging. Meaning no freeplay at the release arm itself. I would need a longer arm if the clutch disks where so thick that there wasn't enough throw in the arm to totally disengage the clutch. In other words. A longer arm is needed when there is so much free play at the release lever that you wouldn't be able to adjust that much slack out of the cable itself in order to disengage the clutch all the way. As your clutch disks wear (get thinner). You may need a shorter rod. Right? A brand new clutch stack (thicker) may require one of the longer rods. Right? Hope this all makes sense. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 06/15/10 at 07:13:14 Nope, you got it backwards .... (don't feel special, I was all confused originally too) Think of the clutch as a stack that gets shorter as the plates wear. The stack of plates has a cover over it, fixed in space -- it never moves. There is an eccentric on the cover that pushes on the rod with a very limited throw range. There is a rod that bridges from the "fixed up in space" eccentric to the ever shortening clutch stack. As the clutch stack gets shorter, the rod must get longer to bridge the increasing gap and transfer that limited throw eccentric motion to the clutch pack stack. ============= Reality is a little more complicated, but this allows you to understand the main two elements you are dealing with 1) a quarter inch throw eccentric that is fixed up in space over a shrinking clutch pack 2) and a rod that must get longer as the pack wears down. The fact that the clutch releases by pushing the back of the pack away from the front of the pack through a ball bearing plate that pushes on the 4 column legs to move the back plate "backwards" is really of no importance and has only served to confuse the heck out of a lot of people who have tried to understand the clutch. Me, I was so bumfuzzled originally I actually made up a 1mm shorter rod and a 1mm longer long rod and actually tried both out to PROVE to myself the whichness of the why. "quote" http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/rod1.JPG I made my 1mm longer rod from 1/4 inch drill rod that I had on hand. There is enough clearance in the clutch hole to readily accommodate the larger size. ====================== Note from the FUTURE again .... The standard hardware drill rod material is too soft (wears too easily on the ends) and it cannot be hardened in a reliable fashion that will not get hot in use and turn blue and resoften on you. Standard drill rod will not work, period. Go get you some full hardened 6mm real parts from Suzuki, or if you are stubborn like me go get a quarter inch diameter piece of M-2 HHS lathe tool bit material and make your push rod out of something that WILL NOT wear out or heat soften under any circumstances. ======================[/highlight] http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/short_rod.JPG This is the shorter rod installed, it moves the lever in the wrong direction removing all the adjustment travel and rendering the clutch "worn out". Shorter is incorrect, the cutch rods must be made LONGER. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/long_rod.JPG Here is the 1mm longer rod, suddenly the same 13,000 mile old clutch pack is "new" again with all of the adjustment travel available again. Longer is the correct direction and 1mm step lengths are obviously the correct stepping distance. And now the "which way does it go?" question is finally answered. ============= |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by rich015 on 06/15/10 at 08:16:26 http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/thetoolswingguy/clutch.jpg?t=1276614272 I quickly drew up this on paint. Is this correct? If so then what you're saying is backwards. Just trying to fully understand this. On my 87 it's the inner pressure plate that moves in and out like shown in this diagram. The pushrod pushs on the square that compresses all the springs and pushes the inner pressure plate as well. As the clutch plates wear it would move the pressure plate closer to the case making a shorter rod nessassary. If I added a extra disk and friction plate I would need a longer push rod. If my clutch discs were worn thinner I would need a shorter rod. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 06/15/10 at 10:10:29 Rich, I keep a torn apart engine on my desk and still I had enough questions & doubts to actually prompt me physically go do it BOTH WAYS as an experiment. It isn't going to make sense based on your illustration because you haven't drawn in all the components and their interrelations. http://fiche.ronayers.com/Index.cfm/Module/Main/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/2/Make/Suzuki/YearID/42/Year/2001/ModelID/6205/Model/LS650P_SAVAGE/GroupID/252054/Group/ In short, don't expect to understand it until you have gone & done it. I sure didn't. The back plate of the clutch is floating inside a basket which is hard mounted to a power shaft running thru the crank cases. The disengagement throw actually moves the back plate of the clutch pack, but the floating pack itself moves in the basket, perhaps maybe driven by the large bevel washer, and it settles under that return bevel spring pressure inside the basket as it wears. Yes, this is confusing as sin to talk about Adding a plate would make the pack taller/longer and it would require shortening the rod. Normal wear of the plates (shortening the pack) requires lengthening the rod. Suzuki sells 3 rod lengths 44.5, 45.5 and 46.5mm long. I am currently using a custom made M-2 HSS rod that is currently 46.32mm long which is my second "longer" rod. Some here say their bike came with the 45.5 length as stock, so this length thing may also be a plate supplier stack up related item. Be aware that the rods themselves get wear on the ends and get worn shorter with normal use/wear, so the rod that you measure today might have been slightly longer originally. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by rich015 on 06/15/10 at 12:35:04 So... from my original post.... what do I need to keep my clutch from slipping when it's cold? |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 06/15/10 at 14:39:07 What weight oil do you use? If it is 20w50 consider shifting to a 10w40 or a 5w40 synthetic to see if the cold slip issue moderates then slowly goes away. Consider shifting to a diesel based oil as the additive packages in diesel oils will clean out of our engine the leftovers from your energy star (or whatever) contamination that you are recovering from. Just be aware that your oil will get "dirty" real quick the first few crankcase fulls as the stuff really does strip the crap out of your engine (and out of your clutch pack). You can shim your springs with one flat washer per post. This does nothing harmful to a clutch, nor does it remove any service life. The clamping boost is moderate but real. Take a shorter rod and a longer rod and do the "move the lever between the lines" test yourself next time you are in there. Nothing like "seeing is believing" to remove any lagging doubts. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by rich015 on 06/16/10 at 07:03:38 Yea. I'm using a 20w 50 now. I just bored it .05 over and put a new piston in. (bought it all torn apart with a bad piston) Changed oil three times now and the next will be with Rotella T6 Synthetic. Should be broke in well enough by then. Hopefully that will help with the clutch. I also just ordered a EBC HEAVY DUTY CLUTCH SPRING SET off of Ebay for 12.39. I figured for that price it couldn't hurt. Should I also shim the new springs? When I do the springs I'll see for myself if a longer or shorter rod is needed as your clutch wears. I still say "as your clutch wears a shorter rod will be needed" but I will do the test myself and take pictures. May prove myself wrong. I love it when that happens :) Cause it just doesn't happen that often. :) And definately not afraid to admit it when it does. :) |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by rich015 on 06/16/10 at 07:37:51 Just so that we're clear on what we're arguing about. A rod that is too short will show the release arm above the marks. A rod that is too long will show the release arm below the marks. There's no question about that. The question is... Which way does the release arm move as the clutch plates wear? If it moves down a shorter rod will be needed as they wear. If it moves up a longer rod will be needed. I believe that as the clutch plates wear the release arm will move down below the marks therefore needing a shorter rod to move the release arm back up into the range of the marks. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 06/16/10 at 07:45:44 The lever moves up as the pack shortens or the rod wears. The reason I come off all patient and easy to get along with on this clutch thing is I was a short rodder originally (yes guys, rub it in rub it in, you love it) until I did it myself and took pictures as to where the rod pointed in each case. Now I am a very patient long rodder type feller, and I agree that you won't trust the answer until you do it yourself. You have to pull the lever-to-eccentric slop out of the system using a steady even (same same) very light load to make the judgment about where things are pointing. You can see from my pics I used an elastic strap that was a mild load placed the same in both trials. While you have your unit down, check for very free and loose rotation on the ball bearing in the thrust plate assembly. If that ball bearing gets some trash in it it can stop cold on you and all the rotation/friction is transferred to the push rod which begins to heat up and wears very rapidly. This is a bad thing. So, always take a moment and check your rod throw out ball bearing in that plate real good. I spin mine with a wooden pencil in a drill and blow air through it and then oil it and spin it in some more while pressing on it -- that's the job it does, being pushed on while spinning. If it can't be pushed on while spinning fast without locking up on trash or damage then the bearing it needs replacing. Note: there is some mild drag on this ball bearing from an "O" ring that is mounted on the inside outer surface that mates the main shaft ID to make an oil seal for the gearbox lube system, so don't mistake the drag for damage -- you want to make sure it can spin under load though. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Charon on 06/16/10 at 07:47:22 Oldfeller, I noticed your remark about clutch packs being replaced due to "greedy repair shops." While that might be true, I submit for consideration another thought. How many man-hours does it take to refurbish the set of clutch discs as you did? At the national average of about $85 per hour for shop time, how much would that have cost? Is it possible the shop actually charges less for replacing the clutch parts with new instead of spending the time (your money) refurbishing used parts with no real guarantee the time will result in acceptable performance? Don't get me wrong - I am not attacking you. I am simply trying to point out relative costs of spending money on new parts versus spending labor hours refurbishing or repairing old ones. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 06/16/10 at 07:56:23 I'd certainly never think much about what motivates a repair shop -- fear of an in-warranty return on repair certainly helps motivate them to use a lot of new parts. The 30% mark up they get on the parts certainly doesn't stop them from slinging lots of "new" in there any chance they get. Carrying your bike to a stealership for them to tell you what is wrong with it is always a recipe for a big repair bill. Lots of the folks who post clutch questions are doing it after the fact anyway -- the bike is already there and they are just looking for information (and for them who are already screwed -- always ask for your old parts back -- I want them) ====================== I dunno, how much $$ value to you attach to your free time? Me, I am "working retired" now, so I guess I could say my time is free since I look for things to do to fill up the day anyway on days that I don't work. Some of us are living right close to broke, so we always look for ways not to spend any money. Substituting time for money always seems to be a thing poorer folk need to be good at. Sometimes you do it simply so you understand it better -- the clutch is an excellent example of where I originally didn't understand it (and will freely admit my current understanding increases with each experiment that I do). Heck, if I got it right each and every time I wouldn't have to correct my tech listings as new stuff gets discovered. ====================== Long term I will be posting me a Yoda High Performance Clutch mod as soon as I wear enough room in my basket for an additional fiber and steel plate. Once I can show you how to do that, then I will admit to understanding the Savage Clutch pretty much completely. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by rich015 on 06/16/10 at 08:18:11 Just a quick question Oldfeller. Do you think you will be needing a longer or shorter rod once you put your "Yoda High Performance Clutch mod" in? |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by rich015 on 06/16/10 at 08:32:30 4B6860626168686176040 wrote:
The rod wearing and the pack wearing are two complete separate issues. If the rod wears you will definately need a longer one. If the clutch pack wears you will need a shorter one. :) |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 06/16/10 at 19:46:34 :) You'll figure it out .... |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by rich015 on 06/16/10 at 22:45:16 already did. Hope you do as well. :) |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by BurnPgh on 06/16/10 at 22:55:33 3F242E257D7C784D0 wrote:
ZING! On a serious note...Took olderfellers advise during my whole rebore downtime and now Im second guessing. At first...it seemed to me that the lever had moved upward with the addition of the longer rod...however...with much empty thought...maybe it was just an illusion (as I waited a freaking month + for a rebore) of my mind. AND my clutch is now slipping BUT i did a bunch of sup' up junk in the mean time so it might just plain old be slipping. I've got tomorrow off work and if i dont ride all day I'll tinker and let you all know the results. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by rich015 on 06/16/10 at 23:11:50 The most important thing is to make sure there is freeplay in the release arm without the cable hooked. If there is no freeplay there it will hold the clutch from engaging all the way. If it's within the marked area there should be, but be sure to check it. Not sure why these clutches are so weak. In all my years of working on motorcycles I've never seen a weaker clutch. Very poor design IMHO. I'm gonna try those heavier springs and hopefully it will help. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by BurnPgh on 06/16/10 at 23:18:38 504B414A121317220 wrote:
So there should be free play in the arm for proper clutch function, and there shouldnt be any free play in the arm if its within the marks,....so the lever shouldnt be within the marks? |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by rich015 on 06/16/10 at 23:26:00 6C5B5C407E49462E0 wrote:
So there should be free play in the arm for proper clutch function, and there shouldnt be any free play in the arm if its within the marks,....so the lever shouldnt be within the marks?[/quote] Oooops I mis spoke. There should be freeplay if it's within the marks. Just to make it clear. If the arm is within the marks... automatically there should be freeplay. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 06/17/10 at 04:04:15 No zing to it, Rich, if you keep working at it you will figure it out. That's what I always have to do. And you have to entertain the idea that you don't really always know the whole story, and go try to find it out. Actually, you remind me of a young feller named Diamond Jim -- he disagreed with me just about the very first thing he posted (it was about air filters as I recall). I kept encouraging him to try out his ideas and he did, and he posted them. Jim built about 5-6 variations of his laminar flow air system before he was done with it, and as a by-blow he created arguably the most beautiful Savage I have ever seen, the one called Black Beauty. http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh128/russ_diamond_jim/6b.jpg So anyway, keep on thinking and experimenting and doing -- don't let being wrong occasionally slow you up for much as you go do that. I always reserve the right to be wrong on occasion -- keeps me human. ;D If you can actually verbally explain the real motion of the clutch pack as it wears you will have done something I haven't been able to do. You've promised pictures too, remember. ;D ;D ;D There is always lots of "apparent" free play in the system (clearance between the lever shaft and the eccentric) what you have to be able to sense is the correct clearance between rod tip and the powdered metal eccentric. To do that, you apply a light load similar to the force of a rubber band to take up all the apparent nonsense slack and move the eccentric gently to show the true position of the lever. Note that the eccentric has a return spring of its very own and the rubber band force has to be calibrated to be able to move this separate small stiff return spring or you aren't really moving anything that counts. The lever (with the small rubber band up force) should point between the marks on the case when you are done. This "between the marks" shows you the rod length is correct for the wear state of your clutch. What has surprised me as I have messed with it repeatedly is that we only get to use about half of the total adjustment range reflected out of the upper handle bar adjustment and the lower locking nut adjustment before we get to change out the rods again. This seems strange to me, like the clutch cable is a generic part that doesn't really correctly fit the realities of our engine. Yes, the Savage clutch comes off as slightly under par sometimes, why do you think I keep dreaming up ways to put extra plates into it? |
|
Title: Fractured Fairy Tale -- The three three little pig Post by Oldfeller on 06/17/10 at 06:41:11 Now we are really gonna time & date stamp all you guys -- with a fractured fairy tale like you used to get on Rocky and Bullwinkle in between the main cartoon sections. (you do remember Rocky and Bullwinkle, don't you?) Once upon a time there were three little http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/3_rods.JPG They lived inside a gear case cover that had slop inherent in its construction. The slop came from clearance between the eccentric gear and the shaft that drove it (and a little smidgen from the fit up connection of the shaft to the lever on the outside, but just a little smidgen) The three little pigs industriously and precisely quantified the amount of incidental slop and transferred the markings carefully to the outside of the side cover so they could easily see what exactly was going on with their slop. They did this by trapping the eccentric flat against the case with thumb pressure and then moving the clutch arm on the outside of the case so they could study and mark where the slop started and stopped. (slop is important to them little piggies -- they do get right hungry at times you know) http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/First_mark.JPG http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Second_mark.JPG http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Transferred.JPG Then the little piggies carefully transferred these marks to the outside of the case with a permanent black sharpie pen. To keep their minds straight, the three little piggies marked the start point of the real push rod contact motion with an "R" and the start of the waste portion of the incidental clearance motion with a "W". They knew to ignore anything between the W and the R, but to pay attention to the R point as the rod is in play compressing the clutch springs past that point. The slight tension applied by the rubber band should eventually wind up right at the "R" mark as the various push rods are trialed as that is the start of the ideal push rod contact (when the rod is just barely in contact with the eccentric when all the waste motion slop is taken out of play). ============ http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Short_rod1.JPG First the shortest little piggy climbed into the gearcase ..... and found he had no surviving adjustment left to push in the clutch at all. He wasn't able to push on the rod at all because he was too short. Not even getting close to the "R" mark meant there was still an air gap between the rod and the eccentric. This little piggy was dead meat and the big bad wolf came and ate him for a bacon sandwich for his breakfast. ============ http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Medium_rod.JPG The middle length little piggy climbed in next, and the lever moved to the very top of the good range, permitting just a little bit of possible adjustment range with the lock nuts and handle bar thumb screw. Heck, he was barely able to push on the rod much at all. There was some wasted air gap still involved in his motion as he missed resting on the "R" mark by a little bit. The hungry wolf decided to wait around since the middle length piggy didn't have very long to live and would likely be pork chops by dinner time. ============ http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Long_rod1.JPG Finally, the longest little piggy got into the case and the lever moved to the very start of the good range, giving the maximum possible adjustment span to the lock nuts and thumb screw. The "R" mark showed that the rod was in light contact with the eccentric but was not pushing in the clutch springs any at this point (obviously that rubber band isn't strong enough to depress the clutch springs any). This is an optimum clutch rod length for this particular bike at this point in time. The big bad wolf threw up his hands as this little piggy looked very very healthy and he wasn't gonna wait around all that long as there were other bikes and other clutch rods that were gonna be lunch meat long before this one. And the longest little piggy went wee ... wee ... wee ... all the way up to the Dragon at Deals Gap to play with the rest of the boys at the Dragon Run ;D ;D ;D ;D Like I said, having a sense of humor about these things is always helpful |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by rich015 on 06/17/10 at 06:57:30 Ok. So you put pictures up about something that we both have never disputed. There is no question about which direction the release arm moves with longer or shorter rods. The question is and always has been "which way does the release arm move as the clutch wears"? Take out one of your clutch plates. just one. put the clutch all back together minus one clutch plate. This would equal a shorter stack. Right? Now see for yourself that you will need a shorter rod. Or do just the opposite. Add one clutch plate. (seems that you have plenty around there in waiting). Put it all back together and see that you will need a longer rod. Take pictures of all that! :) If you would just take a second and look at that first rough drawing I did you might start to understand how this clutch works. http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/thetoolswingguy/clutch.jpg I know that this isn't the best drawing but it still shows the basic way this clutch works. The only part that moves in and out is the pressure plate on the inside that is marked "Pressure plate that moves in and out". This is what disengages and engages the clutch. The springs actually pull the pressure plate against the clutch pack holding it engaged. When you pull the clutch lever it pulls the clutch cable which pulls up on the release arm pushing the clutch rod inward against the clutch release therefor compressing the springs and pushing the pressure plate inward disengaging the clutch. As your clutch pack wears the stack gets shorter which brings the pressure plate closer to the engine case (outward). As you add thickness to your clutch pack (say you put a new clutch pack in) the pressure plate moves inward. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 06/17/10 at 07:14:24 Rich, I just did. The shortest little piggie was the rod provided by the factory. The middle rod was my first custom rod that parked it on the perfect spot about 5 months ago, which has some length wear on it to be sure because it really wasn't perfectly hardened. The longest little piggie is the M-2 HSS custom rod I just finished making to get everything all copasetic for the Dragon run. No, it isn't a perfect progression as rod wear takes place on the things which does muddy up the water some, but I think you see the way progression is going don't you? Next time I tune it I'll post a pic of the four little piggies, sitting in a row -- but that's gonna be a while I am afraid. I hope the new lathe tool bit quality rod doesn't wear very much so the foggy murky doubt should be gone on that one. ====================== As to adding a friction and a steel plate to the pack, first I have to have enough room in the pack for them to fit. Logically, the pack height (which has shortened) will then go back somewhere close to the original pack stack height and the first rod would be closer to working again. But I'll wait until after I have done it before theorizing very much about it. hee hee .... sound a bit like Gort, doesn't he? ;) |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by rich015 on 06/17/10 at 07:25:14 When I get my new springs I'll do a step by step and maybe you'll see the light. And no... that's not what you did. All you did was show that you can put different length rods in to show which way the release arm moves. Still no test on which way the release arm moves as the clutch wears. Therefore beating a dead horse time and time again. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by rich015 on 06/17/10 at 07:27:50 Again we're not talking about rod wear we're talking about CLUTCH WEAR Two very very seperate issues |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by rich015 on 06/17/10 at 07:43:49 Oldfeller. Just because you lost something doesn't mean that you have to add something in this situation. Meaning that as you "loose" thickness in your clutch pack. It would be easy to come to the conclusion that you would add something else to make up for it. The way this is designed it's just the opposite. Look at the clutch diagram and the diagram I drew and maybe you'll see what I'm talking about. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 06/17/10 at 08:11:44 I think we can all agree that the clutch arm moves upwards as the clutch pack wears (Note from the future -- you might jest be wrong here ;D hee hee ;D that's cable & rod wear ) . Just look at your adjustments that you have been making for a while as your clutch wears, excess lever slop develops, thumb screw moves out & gets relocked, lock nut adjustment at the bottom moves the shaft up (nuts move down towards the end of the shaft) both of which adjustments have the lever arm moving upwards over time and clutch pack wear. Admittedly, cable stretch and pushrod wear are items that muddy up this water, but they can't obscure everything now can they? Everyone will eventually answer these questions themselves as they do it over time. And as the different length push rods go in then that question will get answered as well. The fog will lift eventually as the sun comes out and warms the air. It is the way of things. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/17/10 at 08:13:28 A pickup w' a standard in it needs "toe play" on the clutch pedal, just as we need some free motion of the clutch lever. As the clutch wears over time, the Toe Play decreases, until the throwout bearing is in a bind & spinning until it gets cooked. I didnt study the way this clutch works when I was in there, I just wanted done so I could ride. Ive seen a lot made of these rods. What Im not getting is how the rod could be involved in a slipping clutch IF theres slack in the clutch lever. As long as the clutch is allowed to clamp onto itself fully, then its not gonna slip, unless its worn out or got the wrong oil or someone is cramming more HP in than it can harness, but a long or short rod cant make it slip. I can see how a rod needs replaced if its too short to disengage the clutch or if it forces the "paddle" outside of the lines, but I cant see it as a cause for slipping. Some day Im gonna look & see where mine sits. It clutches so easy, its gotta be right on. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 06/17/10 at 08:22:26 Justin, it doesn't. Clutches that slip need to be taken apart and cleaned (or replaced if you are a big bucks person). Shimming the springs or replacing them can also be part of a slipping clutch repair. People are also thinking the clutch needs to be replaced when they run out of adjustment travel -- this is not so. A new push rod can fix that. My clutch doesn't slip, it has simply worn over time. I am on my third rod now. Rich's clutch is slipping when his oil is cold, maybe perhaps due to the weight of oil he uses, maybe because his springs are shot. He is gonna replace his springs and post us a techie on doing that that makes everything clear (which I don't think we have a detailed clutch spring replacement post in Tech Section). Heck, I can remember when you shimmed your clutch springs way back when, right? Right now he isn't sure which way the lever arm moves as the clutch wear takes place, but that will all straighten out over time. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/17/10 at 14:39:24 Yea, I figured Id shim them, since I was in there, adding power with the new cam. Theres a machined surface for each spring to sit in that is smaller than the washer diameter I wanted, so I had to make them smaller, because that surface is set down into the casting of the side cover. Also, the washers are not exactly "Close Tollerance" when they press them out, so the thicknesses vary a good bit. I took a calliper & sorted thru & got some as close to the same thickness that I could. Thanks for the reply. I wasnt saying you said that, just seems Ive seen someone imply it. I didnt shim to solve a problem, I did it hoping to avoid one. So far, no slipping. But, Ive never used a super slickum type oil. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Long-Savage-Rich on 06/23/10 at 11:39:36 Ok. Here we go. I took pictures just to clear up how clutch wear effects the linkage and what to do in order to fix it. It's always been obvious to me but sometimes some need pictures to understand everything completely. :) Here's a link to the diagram. I tried to copy it and post an actual picture but it wouldn't let me. Maybe someone can post a picture of the actual diagram if they can. Thanks. http://www.cheapcycleparts.com/model_years/4006-suzuki-1987-LS650F/assemblies/117725 http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/thetoolswingguy/Cruisers_GZLSTUVSVXVZVZRVLGV_LS650-.png First of all I'll explain how this clutch works. You have the clutch lever and cable which pulls the release lever up pushing the clutch rod, the clutch push piece (#20 on the diagram), Plate release and bearing(#14,21), pressure disk (#13) all inward while compressing the springs which disengages the clutch. As you let off the clutch.. the springs take over and the pressure disk and all of the parts mentioned above move out to engage the clutch. Now here is where the controversy comes in. Some have said on here that as your clutch pack wears the lever moves up. Well this is totally wrong. As your clutch pack wears the pack gets shorter moving the pressure disk and all the components mentioned above outward. In turn moving the release lever downward. As your clutch pack wears the pressure disk slowly gets closer to the case. Thus making a shorter distance between the release lever assembly and the pressure disk. And the release lever moves down. Now lets not get clutch wear and rod wear mixed up. The clutch rod is not designed to wear much. But it's possible that it can. If you see that the release arm is getting higher from where it was normally. There's a good chance that maybe you have something going on in there that is just wearing the rod itself. A shorter rod will, and this has never been disputed, move the release arm up. So if you find that the release arm is above the marks and it used to be within the marks it's more than likely you will only need a new clutch rod and possibly a new bearing and clutch push piece. Something is wrong making it wear the clutch rod itself. There are three lengths of rods available for the clutch. Not sure which length comes stock with the bike. (Maybe oldfeller will add that)Lets just say for the sake of saying that you put in a performance clutch pack that may be a little thicker than a stock clutch pack. This increases the distance that the pressure disk is from the release lever assembly thus needing a longer clutch rod to make up the difference in thickness. Now as your new performance clutch pack or stock pack wears the distance gets shorter and shorter as the pack wears moving the pressure disk and all of the components mentioned above outward in turn moving the release lever downward. Pretty soon you might find that the release lever has moved down out of the range of the marks and you don't have the proper freeplay at your clutch lever anymore. This is when you need to get a shorter clutch rod and get that darn release lever back up within the marks so that you have the proper freeplay at the lever again. Here's a picture I took of the release lever WITHOUT 1 FRICTION DISK in the stack to simulate the clutch pack being shorter or worn. Showing the release lever lower. http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/thetoolswingguy/clutch3003.jpg Here's a picture of the release lever with ALL THE CLUTCH PLATES IN PLACE. A thicker stack showing the release lever higher. http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll291/thetoolswingguy/clutch2002.jpg All in all... as your clutch pack wears your release lever will move down requiring a shorter clutch rod eventually. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Long-Savage-Rich on 06/23/10 at 12:38:02 1B3830323138383126540 wrote:
The quote above is wrong. The clutch arm moves down as the clutch pack wears. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by EJID on 06/23/10 at 13:28:28 Here's the link mentioned above. But it's a REALLY large pic. http://cdn.cheapcycleparts.com/images/SU/Cruisers_(GZ,LS,TU,VS,VX,VZ,VZR,VL,GV)_LS650-F,P-1986-1988,-1995_14.png |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 06/28/10 at 10:48:59 ..... and the clutch war rages on endlessly through yet another generation of eager clutch combatants ..... ..... forever unresolved, always mysterious ..... ..... CLUTCH WAR !!! ===================================== I did notice a nice wooden square piece added to your lever arm for clarity in marking things. That was very good to do. You used the same sort of rubber band tension to intentionally remove the "slop" from your measurement system as otherwise the weight of the wooden piece would move all the clearance slop into the direction that is "unnatural" to the clutch's normal actuation motion. How about ..... "I dunno -- I could be wrong yet again as I have been wrong once before on this subject as once I thought as you did until I replaced my push rod 3 times with longer rods as my clutch wore as the miles racked up and each time the lever moved back down again?" It doesn't hurt my feelings to be wrong, you know. I've been married for 35 years to the same woman and I am a bloody EXPERT at being wrong ---- lots of experience there as my wife will certainly attest as she has never been wrong (but just once). (and boy, did I ever learn not to do THAT ever again .....) |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by verslagen1 on 06/28/10 at 11:32:10 So, we have conclusive evidence of the actuator lever position for "new" vs. "worn" disks... lever moves down with wear. Anyone done the same for the 3 rod lengths? |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Long-Savage-Rich on 06/28/10 at 12:33:19 Oldfeller, Seems to me by everything I've read about what you've done concerning your clutch that you are wearing the clutch push piece, cam release, and the pushrod itself (the thing you keep making longer to make up for the wear in the two previously mentioned pieces). You may find yourself, sometime soon or down the road sometime, in a bit of a pickle. Once those things are worn enough you won't have anything left to disengage the clutch. Just my two cents. Take it or leave it. If you'd like me to explain my theory further let me know. I'd be more than happy to. :) Rich |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Long-Savage-Rich on 06/28/10 at 23:36:13 I wonder how many clutch pushrods it takes to wear all the way through the clutch push piece, and cam release? Obviously more than two. What number are you on Oldfeller? Three Right? Maybe thats the magic number. ;) What would life be like with no humor? |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 06/29/10 at 18:12:05 I think I'll stick with the over time real experiences that I have posted for a while now until I see something different develop from a real world wear scenario. Ripping a plate out of a clutch was a nice thing to do and the question it poses "does the cable stretch and the rod wear effect overpower the plate wear effect by so great an amount it seems to act backwards" is a valid technical question that was worth your experiment for your own edification (and to scratch a bit at my own curiosity as well). If so, then removing the clutch plate was all simply a "a very interesting exercise" as the casual user really simply needs to know which length rod to put into their machine to put the lever back down into the correct adjustment zone on the cover when they have run out of cable adjustment. (it would maybe a bit harsh to say they don't really care if it is plate wear, cable stretch or pushrod wear that is the prime culprit or if one cause goes that way and the other two go the opposite way -- they just want their durn adjustment range back again) And I think most folks are going to find the answer is "a longer push rod fixes the issue" and "as you go along replacing the push rods over time, they get longer and longer". That is what real wear in real life experiences has shown me, anyway. Your plate removal extrapolation that rods are going to get shorter and shorter simply doesn't jive with real world experience, and no -- as I have said from the beginning I really can't explain this "long is what works" phenomena completely as it was counter-intuitive to me from all the way back when I was a short rodder person too. And yes, I am kinda expecting to remain both very interested and open minded until the whichness of the why becomes fully apparent. And yes, Serenity just proved again just this past weekend that clutch cables DO stretch and break. And I have certainly stated that push rods can wear -- so yes, your alternate theory is potentially valid to me right now too. It would try to explain both sets of data, as no single prior theory has really been able to do. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 06/29/10 at 18:46:15 607B717A222327120 wrote:
Can't speak to the wear of the internals of the female clutch push piece, never attempted to measure it beforehand. The eccentric cam on the lever shaft is very hard powdered metal, it shows practically no wear (since you can actually look at it and judge from the form if any wear has taken place). If I were guessing, I'd guess the clutch cable stretches more than the push rod wears which is more than the friction plates wear. From the movement distance you documented for removing a plate vs the range of total motion reflected by 3 of my previous existing rods, I would say that plate wear is relatively minor compared to the other two causes (this is assuming your theory is correct). This is in line with the fact no one has ever worn a set of friction disks out of factory spec range ever -- YET MANY FOLKS HAVE RUN COMPLETELY OUT OF ADJUSTMENT ON THE CLUTCH ADJUSTMENT POINTS and have replaced clutch friction disks and then bitched a year later that the new plates sure didn't last very long. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Long-Savage-Rich on 06/30/10 at 08:39:36 Oldfeller, My whole point to this argument is that there can be two issues once someone finds their release lever beyond the marks. Not all issues are fixed by simply adding a longer rod. If it's clutch pack wear your release arm will move down (requiring a shorter rod). If it's internal linkage wear your release arm will move up (requiring a longer rod). This is not rocket science. It's a very simple setup much like every other bike I've worked on in the past thirty some odd years. If it's internal linkage wear THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG. It's very clear that it is NOT designed to have internal wear to the point of having to replace push rods. My guess is that the throughout bearing is not working properly. It may feel free enough by spinning it with a pencil while pushing on it, but more than likely, the load that's on it during actual operation is WAY, WAY more than that. I've read some posts that have claimed to have burned looking push rods. This is NOT the way of things. SOMETHING IS WRONG! Oh well..... I find this site very informative and entertaining. Takes the guess work out of some things on occasion. Sometimes it can just plain OLE confuse you if you don't know whose advise to take. I came to this site after finding my clutch slipping with the thought of just replacing with heavier springs. Found the part where you said to clean them. Thought I'd try that. While I was in there I quickly studied the way it works. No surprise. It worked on the very same basic principle as every other clutch I've ever worked on. Put it all back together after the cleaning and found that I still had a slipping clutch. Way better, but still slipping. Came back to this thread and started reading more about it thinking maybe there's something I missed about the way it works. This is when I found out about the three different lengths of push rods. Posted my thoughts and was told I had it backwards. Well... I didn't have it backwards. Ever since then, I've been trying to get you to understand the way it actually works. Maybe if you understood it completely you wouldn't confuse anyone else on the subject. Tried to explain to you where you were wrong but you wouldn't have it. So I then had to take time and show you the way it actually works by taking a clutch disk out. If the casual user finds themselves with the release arm up above the marks, more than likely they have a worn push rod. If the casual user finds themselves with the release arm below the marks, more than likely they need a shorter push rod to get the remaining use out of the clutch pack. I sure wouldn't just have them replacing with LONGER push rods all the time as you are. I would want them to know the whole story. Maybe no one has tried replacing the throughout bearing to see if it would fix the problem with push rods wearing. But... just as sure as I'm sitting here. I'd be trying it. If your push rod is wearing and you're having to replace it with a longer and longer one each time, there has to be something wearing away in order to keep getting a longer one in. Not good. The three clutch rods were a little tough to get a grip on at first. But after very little thought I think I have a pretty solid grasp on them now. The design of the clutch has limited throw. Not sure why, but I think it's because maybe they wanted a really easy pulling clutch for women. Or maybe it's a design flaw. Either way it's a short throw. By "short throw" I mean that the release lever moves a long distance and the rod only pushes a very short distance. This is simple leverage. The longer the release lever, and the shorter the release cam, the easier it is to pull. This is the release lever to cam relationship. In order to get maximum use out of our clutch packs we need the different length rods to keep the "throw" in the right place. That's all I was trying to figure out when I first posted. Somehow you found yourself with a worn push rod and somehow believed it to be the way of things. Well it's not. Now I'm sure your gonna post something that will blow everyone's mind and show how intelligent you are. Bottom line is that you don't understand this clutch yet and until you do... please don't confuse anyone else. Or maybe you can be the first one to replace your throughout bearing, show everyone that it quit wearing your push rods, and get that real life experience you talk about. Then you can tell everyone how to COMPETELY fix the problem with wearing push rods. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 07/06/10 at 04:14:16 I think that RICH'S THEORY OF CABLE, ROD AND CLUTCH PLATE WEAR with the clutch cable stretching over time & use and clutch rod shortening due to wear friction vs the clutch plates wearing very very very slowly (with the cable stretch and rod wear calling for longer rods and the plate wear being so small as to be completely overpowered by the other two effects) is valid and is the way I now think too. It lines up with all the known facts and covers them neatly. I like your explanation of how piddly the throw range of the clutch is compared to the distance that can be covered by the other effects and how you shouldn't just rush to replace the clutch plates (which wear very very slowly) but should instead tune your rod lengths as needed to put your lever back between the marks. I like the pictorial and factual basis of your evidence as shown up thread and how your new theory covers all the known facts (which was not the case before). I also like your point about the throwout bearing being a potential cause of rod wear issues. ============ Congratulations -- you've come a long way from "My clutch is slipping" to a solid documented contributor of new technical information. RICH'S THEORY OF CLUTCH FUNCTION is hopefully only the first of many contributions that you make to the knowledge base. We need people with minds (and cameras) to document the whichness of the why in a manner that folks can readily understand. And you seem to have a talent for that. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by BC-Savage on 10/26/10 at 12:57:52 Wow. That was some indepth War. May I dare ask a few Clutch questions? Background: I just boaught my first ever Savage 86, it came with a Parts bike 87. The running bike's clutch slips, but the guy said the part's bike clutch is new. I plan to swap the cluth covers cause the parts bike cover is nicer. And it would seem like a good plan to inspect the Cam Chain Tensioner at the same time. So: 1. Is there a easy way to tell a worn clutch from a good one, without disassembling the clutch assembly? 2. Which rotation does the SOB 32mm nut turn off? thanks PS: SuzukiSavage.com frickin rocks. You guys have shared and detailed darn near everything about this beasts. Well done! |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by verslagen1 on 10/26/10 at 14:23:01 1. not w/o running it. 2. primary is left hand and clutch is right hand if I remember correctly. don't have a clue which is 30 or 32mm. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Oldfeller on 10/26/10 at 19:37:01 It was a good war, both factual and informative and it led to new understanding of something that has been a puzzlement. A very good war is one that leads to new and better understanding of a thing that can be both understood and followed. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by SpikeFL on 05/04/15 at 08:35:34 I copied from Rich's post on the previous page: ""As your clutch pack wears the pack gets shorter moving the pressure disk and all the components mentioned above outward. In turn moving the release lever downward. As your clutch pack wears the pressure disk slowly gets closer to the case. Thus making a shorter distance between the release lever assembly and the pressure disk. And the release lever moves down."" Heres my confusion about longer and shorter. No response is necessary as i will hopefully figure out what he's talking about. Hes right about how all the comments confuse a casual reader-- i dont understand how the pressure plate gets closer to the case as the clutch pack wears down. This would mean that the entire assembly increases in size? How else does the pressure plate move closer to the case? if the pack wears one plate away, i would have thought the whole package would decrease in size necessitating a longer rod or additional plate to move the arm back in range. I have very little mechanic experience. This is my first bike and i bought it to teach myself basic mechanic skills. its a "project" bike that i am just changing parts on. I might make a few mods along the way... Thanks! Spike |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Dave on 05/04/15 at 09:25:52 The clutch is a bit weird on this bike. Most bikes have a clutch basket that is mounted nearest the engine that is driven by the gears to the driveshaft......and then an outer cover that is connected to the transmission shaft with splines...and pulled into the plates by the springs. When you "pull" on the outer cover you make the plates separate and it releases the clutch. Some bikes use a lever that pulls on the outer plate from the clutch side of the bike....others use a long shaft that crosses through the engine and pushes on the outer cover from the sprocket side of the bike. Our clutch has a third "intermediate" plate - both inside and outside plates are fixed in location - the intermediate plate is pulled by springs toward the outer cover to compress the plates. In order to release the plates the clutch rod pushes the intermediate plate away from the outer plate (toward the center of the engine). As the clutch plates wear the intermediate plate moves closer to the outside.....and you need a shorter rod to provide the needed clearance (free play). Part number 13 in the linked diagram is the plate that moves outward as the clutch wears. http://www.hondaofflorence.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=432124&category=Motorcycles&make=SUZUKI&year=2005&fveh=10118 |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/04/15 at 09:31:29 On a pickup, mechanical linkage, as the clutch wears the ToePlay, the free swinging part of the pedal, decreases. The clutch pressure plate that crushes the clutch disc or discs against the flywheel is Levered Away from that position. Imagine a teetet totter, put ten pounds on one end, walk away, look at how high the high end is. Now, go dig a hole under the end on the ground, observe again, The hole is wear. Get it? |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by SpikeFL on 05/04/15 at 09:53:58 Thanks Dave and Justin! Makes sense now. As part 13 approaches the case, part 22 (clutch rod) must decrease in length or it will prevent the clutch from fully engaging. I wonder if the rod has a natural rate of wear to self compensate? Just a thought... Thanks old timer for instructions on cleaning plates! Thanks to rich for his posts as well. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by azsavage91 on 08/14/15 at 19:03:40 Where do we order this longer push rod? |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/14/15 at 19:17:57 What indicators are there that a longer rod is needed? |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by verslagen1 on 08/14/15 at 21:07:55 4A51584A5D4A4C4E121A2B0 wrote:
didn't see the link? any oem supplier or dealer. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/18/15 at 12:26:25 I found this thread when I was researching the clutch on this red-headed stepchild we call the savage. I just needed a simple adjustment, but was fascinated by the whole thread. I will confess to anyone who asks that I am one of the most blatant morbidly disrespectful vehicle owner/operators on the planet. I have been since the age of 14. I have always HATED the feel of motor oil on my hands (and metal chips) and yet, I ended up being a reasonably competent self-taught machinist due to necessity. I still hate vehicle maintenance. HATE IT. To me, a car has always been a means to get from one place to another more efficiently than walking. I had a 2000 Chevy S-10 LS pickup truck that I bought used in 2004 with 60K miles on it. The A/C unit broke so I unplugged it. The hood release lever broke (inside the cab) so I cut the wire and left it hanging out near the headlight so I could grab it with a pair of pliers to pop the hood. Being that it took too much effort, I rarely opened the hood at all unless the battery died. I put 125,000 miles on it and did a grand total of 4 oil changes in 12 years. Truck still runs great ( I sold it last year for $500). I'm not bragging about this....it's nothing to brag about. It just is what it is. I want to get in my car and go, then get out and not even think about it. It isn't laziness....I have built very complex electro-mechanical fixtures and jigs and repaired machinery most of my adult life....I just hate engines. Lawn mowers too. Hot, greasy, oily, nasty little pieces of machinery, that's what they are. I dont even like to wash my car. The reason I am relating this information is that I have finally succumbed to the harsh reality that my Savage will require care and feeding. I have gotten my hands dirty. I have found that I actually ENJOY working on the bike. My understanding of what makes a motorcycle "tick" has gone from about zero to about "idiot level", which is a tenfold increase. This bike and this forum are to blame :P I hope to become more adept at motorcycle maintenance and repair as time goes on. Who knows, one day I may even reach the "competent" level. Thank you, all of you, for my free education. SuzukiSavage.com actually DOES rock! |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/27/18 at 04:43:28 If I was gonna be adding spring pressure I'd want to machine a throw out. The sintered metal ones have been known to break. Even on stock clutches. |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Ruttly on 01/27/18 at 05:50:56 No need for washers or spacers our clutch assembly is weak and fragile, all that will cause a failure eventually ! Best option is a Barnett clutch kit , it has all the plates and springs and it works great for a engine with lots of upgrades. After that make sure your using the right oil !!! |
|
Title: Re: Seeking advice on clutch replacment Post by Bender on 05/18/19 at 20:13:29 I'd like to add another data point to this forum. I bought my 2009 S40 a few weeks ago with 14,500 miles, and a clutch that slips above 30 mph. The clutch seemed like it was barely engaging from a stop, I could put the bike in 1st, release the clutch lever, and it wouldn't stall, but I could give it throttle and it would go. I did not observe where the clutch release arm was adjusted to before I started the work. I opened the clutch cover, and took out the 45.5mm push rod, and put in the long 46.5mm push rod, based on the information I found in the first few pages of this thread. Buttoned everything up, and started the bike, and clutch would not engage at all. I shifted it into 1st, released the clutch lever, and bike sat idling and stationary, in 1st. I tried it in 2nd and same thing. So the clutch was keeping the engine and transmission separate constantly, and now it was worse than before. I now observed that the clutch release arm was at the bottom mark. I opened up the clutch cover, and put in the short 44.5mm push rod. I closed it all up, and now the clutch release arm was pointing almost to the top mark. I started the bike up, put it in 1st, and as I released the clutch lever, I felt it begin to pull immediately. I took it out on a ride and it it felt like a new clutch. As stated in the last few pages of this thread, check where you clutch release arm is pointing before you decide to change out the push rod for a different length. For me the clutch release arm was pointing to the bottom mark, and I changed it for a shorter push rod, and that completely fixed the issue. |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |