SuzukiSavage.com - Cylinder Head Baseline Data

LANCER

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Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data
Reply #45 - 11/25/18 at 02:42:26

DragBikeMike wrote on 11/24/18 at 13:32:46:

Lancer, thanks for Ed's cheat sheet. Makes things pretty simple. I think you have the perfect recipe for raising kids, and grandkids. Sounds like they all turned out great. Nice job.

Both you and Dave are running stage 3 cams. Are you guys running those cams with stock valve springs, or do you have a better set of springs installed? What can you tell me about the performance spring kit that Web provides? Do you sell those springs or would we have to go directly to Web to get a set? Does the kit come with retainers and keepers? Are the retainers titanium and are they cut back on the underside to accommodate more lift?

I am running stock springs with the Stage 3 cam. I've never had an issue with it causing any negative effects. I did run the Stage 2 for a while but did not care for power/torque curve moved up the rpm range, it did not run as strong in the low-mid range like it should. For ride-ability the Stage 1 worked better than the 2. So I went back to the duration of the Stage 1 cam and the lift of the Stage 2.
The heavy duty springs that Webcam offers were designed for the DR650 90-95 running one of the very high lift cams for the DR and are designated for Race Only. I can get those springs if you want to try them and they do have titanium retainers but I don't remember off hand whether that is a separate purchase of not. Seems like the set was $2-300. I've only had one person buy them, a dude from Russia. I don't know about the cut back.

The stock springs and retainers limit travel a bit. With the stock setup and the stage 3 you should only have about .037" clearance at max lift. Would be nice to have more since the stock springs are pretty soft. Did you guys do anything to address that? If not, then its a pretty forgiving system.

Nope, not a thing. Yep, seems to be.

Dave, regarding your comment about the "restrictive ring just before the header gasket", based on the measurements I took at location "B", that 1.34" ring at location "D" shouldn't be holding anything back on the stock configured port. The cross section at "D" is about 150% of the two "B" cross sections combined. Shouldn't have to do anything at "D" until those bottlenecks are improved or eliminated.

Please let us know about your springs and retainers. It would be very helpful.

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LANCER

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Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data
Reply #46 - 11/25/18 at 03:36:49

batman wrote on 11/24/18 at 17:40:57:

Dave said,

"I often wonder if the flow of the exhaust port can support (or requires) the extra valve lift of the performance cams? Currently my bike runs really strong in the low to middle rpm ...then the engine begins to feel like it is working hard to make power as it gets up toward 6,500 rpm."

My engine runs strong up to 6500. The power/torque peak before then but it is still strong to redline and beyond. It will pull 7000 in a flash and I don't believe that is out of the safe range for this engine, keeping in mind that Suzuki sets their redlines well below the point where damage would occur. I had a '56 BSA Gold Star years ago that was built to pull 8000, and did so race after race. I bought it from a privateer who built and ran the bike on 1/2 & 1 mile flat tracks. It had the strongest race cam available and a 12.5:1 piston and a 1.5" Amal GP carb. It was geared to max out at 110mph and would do so in a heart beat. When you went full throttle it was all you could do to hang on.

Keep in mind that the Stage 3 cam is in the low range for cams duration wise, and the lift is nowhere near even the stock DR cam, much less the high lift race versions. Our intake ports are almost identical to the 90-95 DR650, the valves are the same, the lifters nearly so, not sure about the springs. The DR cam is the very same base unit as ours, just with a different profile. The only major difference is the exhaust ports. You can get an early model DR head for pretty cheap on eBay if you watch for a while and compare them side by side, I did. Their exhaust ports have a clean shot right out of the head, just like the intake ports are a clean shot into the head for both the DR & LS. I believe the DR header may be a bit larger as well but just don't remember that tidbit.

The fact that the performance cams have extra exhaust valve lift is probably the reason they work so well. The extra lift keeps the valve head farther out of the exhaust stream, and the lift adds to the duration ,giving added time to extract exhaust gases. At 6500 rpm that is about 18.4 milliseconds, and our ugly port needs all the help it can get, but perhaps that isn't enough. It maybe that the intake ,with 36 VM carb is too effective, or the fact that the domed 97 mm piston which protrudes into the combustion chamber(making it smaller) ,causes a higher percentage of exhaust gases to fuel/air mix,(there are exhaust gases left behind anytime the motor exceeds peak torque 3500 to 4000rpm ) It may pay to try decreasing intake valve lift or to try wave tuning the exhaust, shortening the Exhaust header from the stock length of 32 inches ,toward the limit of 30 inches may increase scavenging rate for the motor at those higher RPM's.(the wave reverses at the exhaust's first enlargement , the wave travels at the speed of sound-mach 1 - exhaust gases travel down the pipe at about 350 feet/per second) . removing the baffle in the muffler may have little effect. All this is of course OPINION .

This is just a seat of the pants observation but why would you want to shorten the header to move the power up to a higher rpm when the Stage 3 cam already peaks power & torque in the 4000-5500 range where we ride most of the time ?

How do you define "too effective" regarding the 36 carb ?
If you are thinking it supplies too much fuel, then just re-jet and tune.
This is again just my seat of the pants observation since I'm not financed for Dyno runs with the nearest at least 70 miles away, but I can feel the increased power pulses with the Wiseco piston and the increased responsiveness with the 36 carb. I truly wish I had a Dyno in the shop, I would run after every single change I made but unless I happen to win a lottery that won't happen.
Maybe some day.

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Armen Serious Thumper Offline Half-Witted Wrench-Jockey from Jersey Posts: 1432	Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data Reply #47 - 11/25/18 at 05:48:28 So, with all this, how do you think the Mac 1.75" system would work with a 695cc, ports cleaned up, stage 3 cam, big carb, K+N filter set-up?
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Ruttly

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Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data
Reply #48 - 11/25/18 at 08:11:48

I find trying to extract power from this engine,to say the least challenging ! Lancer trying to compare that old BSA to a LS might be missing the mark. Note: I highly respect his opinions and his knowledge , after all he has contributed to what I know to be true about the LS. When you compare engines it more about what is different than what is the same. And for now let's leave the cams out of it. First thing everyone looks at is bore & stroke, for me not so much cause you won't find a huge differences. Guessing game going here , oh yeah. Clue: Only one member has gone there( that I know of).
Grin

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Ruttly Serious Thumper Offline Thumpers Rule Posts: 5007 Manteca , CA Gender:	Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data Reply #49 - 11/25/18 at 08:21:28 Guess I should have left you with a question rather than a statement. What's the biggest difference between the two engines in stock form ? Shush Armen .
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LANCER

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Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data
Reply #50 - 11/25/18 at 08:21:53

Armen wrote on 11/25/18 at 05:48:28:

So, with all this, how do you think the Mac 1.75" system would work with a 695cc, ports cleaned up, stage 3 cam, big carb, K+N filter set-up?

MAC ran a contest on this site when they first began to advertise the system and before it was actually available. I won the contest and the system, though it took them months to deliver it and then only after several of us sent letters asking “where the heck is it ?”
I mounted it on two of my bikes, my ‘96 (REX) and an ‘09 S40 with a Webcam. Both machines suffered performance lose with the larger header, which concurs with the charts by “Headers by Ed”.
So the header I did not care for, it was too large, but the muffler I did like, it had good sound.

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Armen Serious Thumper Offline Half-Witted Wrench-Jockey from Jersey Posts: 1432	Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data Reply #51 - 11/25/18 at 08:23:33 Thanks Lance. Guess I have to find an outfit that will make a stainless header in the stock shape, with a slightly larger ID.
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Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data
Reply #52 - 11/25/18 at 08:38:30

Lancer, I was speaking to Dave's comment that his bike seemed to be struggling as it approached 6500 rpm/max speed, and my comments were addressed to that end ONLY.
I didn't mean to nock the use of the 36vm carb , it's smaller throat adds velocity to the incoming fuel air mix ,increasing swirl in the combustion chamber adding a more complete burn ,as does the higher compression of the DR piston, but due to the decrease in combustion chamber size, that the lift of the intake lobe might be reduced slightly without an actual loss in hp. ,give a smoother running motor and higher mpg.

Due to the fact that after market cams do have overlap wave tuning the exhaust for high speed is possible , and extraction of exhaust gas from the cylinder leaves more room for the incoming fuel/air charge creating more HP.
Advancing the cam (2-4 degrees) might be an other option, the early opening of the exhaust valve would allow higher cylinder pressure an may speed exhaust removal as well as the earlier opening of the intake valve might assure faster /more complete filling of the combustion chamber (even more so if combined with wave tuning).

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LANCER

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Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data
Reply #53 - 11/25/18 at 08:40:28

Armen wrote on 11/25/18 at 08:23:33:

Thanks Lance.
Guess I have to find an outfit that will make a stainless header in the stock shape, with a slightly larger ID.

I made my first one using shaped pipe sections purchased from an exhaust pipe supplier, cut and welded into the desired shape to match the stock unit and cut the head from a stick pipe and welded that on. It worked well and lasted several years before falling apart due to my “attempt” At welding.
The next one I purchased a length of pipe and took it with the cut head from a stock pipe to a muffler shop that builds exhaust systems for cars, with my Savage in my truck, and had them bend the pipe to fit my bike and then weld on the head. That was done 6-8 years ago. Earlier this year while on the Texas ride the head and pipe cracked just behind the head so I had it welded by a local welder with much better skills than the other guy, so it is up and running again.

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LANCER Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Savage Beast Performance Parts Posts: 10606 Oklahoma Gender:	Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data Reply #54 - 11/25/18 at 08:52:07 Batman, I did understand that your comments were directed to Dave and I take no issue with you at all. I simply wanted to add my observations. It was my error for not being clear with my intent. All is good.
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Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data
Reply #55 - 11/25/18 at 08:56:05

Armen wrote on 11/25/18 at 08:23:33:

Guess I have to find an outfit that will make a stainless header in the stock shape, with a slightly larger ID.

Summit Racing and the like sells stainless bends and straight sections for people building their own headers. If you are careful with the cuts and measurements, two 180 bends and one 48" straight section will make two header pipes. I get a discount from Summit through work, but it was only about $60 for enough to make two pipes.

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batman Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 3806 osceola new york Gender:	Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data Reply #56 - 11/25/18 at 09:14:01 Lancer, no offence was taken ,nor any meant be me ,as I stated . it was just opinion, meant to make anyone aware of options that might be helpful,and your right- It's all good!
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Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data
Reply #57 - 11/25/18 at 09:53:28

Armen, following my receipt of the MAC system I had several exchanges with the MAC rep who had posted to contest on this sight, and asked him if they had run Dyno tests on their pipe when deciding to go with the 1.75” ID /2”OD HEADER PIPE. He claimed they did and that that size worked best but I have a difficult time believing they actually did so. It just does not prove to be the case on the road.
That was my experience anyway.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data Reply #58 - 11/25/18 at 10:07:43 A rudimentary dyno shouldn't be beyond the abilities of most of us here.
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Re: Cylinder Head Baseline Data
Reply #59 - 11/25/18 at 10:52:14

batman wrote on 11/25/18 at 08:38:30:

Lancer, I was speaking to Dave's comment that his bike seemed to be struggling as it approached 6500 rpm/max speed, and my comments were addressed to that end ONLY.

I was a bit afraid of posting my feelings about my power profile of my engine.......I don't remember saying it was "struggling". It runs far better than a stock engine at all rpms.

The little 250 Ninja runs smoothly below 8,000 rpm - then it just screams from there up to 14,000.....it pulls strongly in the upper rpms. My Savage does just the opposite - it pulls really strong in the lower and mid rpms, then when you get up over 5,500 rpm it just loses a bit of "enthusiasm", and it lets you know that it is definitely time to shift to move the engine back into the 4,000 - 5,500 rpms where it pulls harder. It can rev past 6,500 rpm easily in the first 3 gears when under full throttle and you have to be ready to shift as it goes through the gears quickly - it just doesn't pull all as hard when you approach the upper limit of the rpm range. The bike reaches 80 mph easily, 90 comes with a bit more work....100 takes a good while and there really isn't much left. It could be that the exhaust system is holding the breathing back a bit....not sure. The engine runs really well for the style of riding I do, which is 40-60 mph twisty roads - the torquey engine is well suited to pushing the bike along at a very comfortable pace....I am not one that uses full throttle very often, and I very rarely explore the terminal velocity.

That said, I fully support exploring the potential of the engine, and I believe some work in finding the "actual" compression ratio of the Wiseco is necessary (Is it really 10.5:1 when installed in the Savage)? It could be that it is not necessary to run Premium if the compression ratio is only 9.5/1.

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