SuzukiSavage.com - RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS

rfw2003

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #60 - 08/10/12 at 18:06:48

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 08/10/12 at 17:46:10:

rfw2003 wrote on 08/10/12 at 17:00:19:

Now that's got me thinking, wonder if there is an easy way to adapt a bypass filtration system to the Savage motor, doing this would also increase the oil capacity and filter capacity. Undecided

Issue is the low pressure and volume of our oil pump system doesn't supply enough volume/pressure to do this except when we are running at half speed and better.

Both Verslagen and I figured one out, but the silica build up problem (dust) in the oil rendered the idea moot.

Thus my efforts at better fine dust filtration through a thick 2" oiled media -- the supermagnet stopped all the super fine ferrous junk but nothing so far can filter out microfine silica, so I tried to keep it from entering the system in the first place.

Huh

and then there is that personal quirk that I want to change my oil at least once a year regardless .....

.... and the fact the bypass systems looked ugly hanging off the front of the bike (like a set of forward controls).

the low pressure oil system was my biggest concern about it. The external parts of the system could be hidden with a custom built scoop on the bike like one of the other members did to hide his horns. If the filtration system was setup right the silica would be removed as well, but the issue still remains on the oil pump not being up to the job. To bad no one out there will make a replacement pump that gives better performance Sad

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28769 L.A. California Gender:	Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Reply #61 - 08/10/12 at 19:17:40 The oil pump is capable of producing 50psi at what... 4000 rpm or so? Isn't the oil filter bypass pressure less than that? most bypass filter require that much pressure to get the oil thru anyway. so there you go, tap the front port, dump it in the head. self regulating. only works at full throttle.
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rfw2003

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #62 - 08/10/12 at 19:42:58

verslagen1 wrote on 08/10/12 at 19:17:40:

The oil pump is capable of producing 50psi at what... 4000 rpm or so?

Isn't the oil filter bypass pressure less than that?

most bypass filter require that much pressure to get the oil thru anyway.

so there you go, tap the front port, dump it in the head. self regulating. only works at full throttle.

yeah most are around 15 psi I believe. But I'll have to do more research to make sure on that.

R.F.

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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #63 - 08/10/12 at 20:48:38

Mind you, that bypass valve is a 14-15 psi delta pressure between the inside of the filter and the outside of the filter, the bypass valve neither knows nor cares what the overall system pressure might be at the moment.

The only environment it sees is whatever ambient pressure is inside the filter housing and the only differential pressure it responds to is between the inside of the filter and the outside of the filter.

Example, you are booking down the road at 55 mph, ambient pressure inside the whole system (and the filter housing) is about 53 psi and holding pretty steady. The filter is beginning to plug up a little bit so it is only 42 psi inside the filter and the oil is struggling a bit to make it through at full flow. The bypass valve sees an 11 psi differential and it does not open just yet. Your critical parts see the internal pressure at 42 and the total flow of oil is slightly less than optimal.

So you goose it on up to 72 to pass a car, the system pressure jumps to 67 psi and the internal filter pressure is still down at 51 psi.

The bypass valve opens temporarily as it sees more than 14-15 psi differential between the inside and outside of the filter, the internal filter flow and pressure instantly goes up to 72 psi and you are bypassing some unfiltered oil temporarily during this pressure spike.

This bypass oil is internal to the filter BTW, it doesn't go anywhere but down the filter pathway. When you rig up an external bypass filtration system you are robbing pressure and volume from the system that is NEVER returned to the system, it winds up back in the sump (if you are smart you'd dump it on the cam rocker junction from up top side and let it run down the bathtub pathway down the cam chain to the sump)

Good news is that bypass oil really isn't THAT ugly dirty and the fact you still have lots of flow and pressure during the crunch periods is always a good thing.

Our judgment during these bypass filter studies finally ground down to there just wasn't enough oil flow volume at lower pressure to go around -- you could only tap the system when it was at full pressure and then only for the last 5-8 psi of what pressure/flow was produced.

We also could see some potential scenarios where the bypass system might lead to some lubrication issues if it were to get out of whack and re-route too much pressure/flow volume away from the main lubrication jobs of head, crank and gearcase (say it kicked in a little too early when flow volume was too low).

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #64 - 08/10/12 at 20:59:09

Sorry if I'm jumping in while you're in the middle of another conversation. Just trying to add another oil to the list.

I've been using Castrol Act Evo Xtra 4T 10W-40. It is API-SG and JASO-MA2 rated, but it is 0.113% zinc and 0.103% phosphorous by weight. That would equate to 2160 ppm ZDDP, wouldn't it? It is also recommended for wet clutches. The only thing I DON'T like about this oil is that I payed $40 for a 1 gallon jug at my local Suzuki dealership. I bought this before
I had ever read about this oil issue, but I can't see why it wouldn't fit the criteria for the bike concerning ZDDP. I've put 1,000 miles since my last oil change 2 months ago with no issues.

You can view the Product Data Sheet here: http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/loc...

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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #65 - 08/10/12 at 21:04:34

You don't add the two numbers together, if you are feeling generous you use the larger one.

This reformulation jobbie is one of the ones that alerted us that something was up in oil land, as the oil dropped its ZDDP concentration quite a bit when it when MA2 and it is no longer suitable for the Savage engine.

It comes in on VOA right at 1,100 ppm of zinc with 990 phosphorus.

You could bump it a bit with a ZDDP booster and it would be fine.

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #66 - 08/10/12 at 21:13:46

I already bought another jug of Rotella anyways. I'll be changing my oil again this weekend after I fix my plug cap leak. It's become progressively worse, and it's screaming for my attention.

After taking a second look at the owner's manual, should we REALLY make a big deal about getting JASO-MA rated oil? The only specifications the manual for my '01 recommends is the API-Sf or SG rating, which most current oils still meet. Are we SURE this isn't all for nothing?

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"You ride a single cylinder motorcycle??"

"When you're good, one is all you need." Wink

I guess that means I'm no good anymore; I've got 4 more cylinders! '08 Yamaha FJR1300 and still '01 Savage

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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #67 - 08/10/12 at 22:04:00

SF and SG are old obsolete oil specs that are not published nor are they enforced by API any more. API should re-issue the specs with both min and max ZDDP values that are clearly stated (and fully support our old bikes).

Neither SF nor SG spec EVER called out a minimum ppm for ZDDP so the mgf. can pretty much put in whatever they want to. Mgf's put out oils that always had 1,400 -1,600 ppm of ZDDP back when these specs were current (flat tappets were the rule back then and there were no cat converters).

Lucas quotes these specs and puts out 800 ppm, your guy does 1,100 ppm === both honor the spec rules ..... go figure.

Hey, if you feel cuddly with 1,100 I would say it is only a spit and a fart away from 1,200 which is where I start to feel cuddly.

See, we are almost related .... Wink

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #68 - 08/11/12 at 07:00:37

HondaLavis wrote on 08/10/12 at 21:13:46:

After taking a second look at the owner's manual, should we REALLY make a big deal about getting JASO-MA rated oil? The only specifications the manual for my '01 recommends is the API-Sf or SG rating, which most current oils still meet. Are we SURE this isn't all for nothing?

We are sure it isn't for nothing -- oil has become something critical for the life of your bike that YOU must pay attention to. Why?

We have old bikes on this list that date back to 1987. Up until 2000 the owners could put in anything that poured and it all had enough ZDDP in it to support their engine correctly (ALL oil was made with 1,400 to 1,600 ppm of ZDDP because flat tappets were the prevalent valve system in America. Bike oils came in at 1,350 ppm minimum up until a month ago).

5 levels of EPA driven CAFE standards over the next 12 years gutted our oil by cutting the ZDDP levels they could put in it to less than half of what it was before. This cutting didn't happen to motorcycle oils until a month ago.

But up until a month ago we still had bike oils that were written to JASO MA standards and they all had about 1,200 to 1,350 ppm of ZDDP so we could point to JASO and say "use the bike oils" and we got what we needed.

Now cat converters have come to bike land. You can't buy a new bike 2013 bike that doesn't have a computer, fuel injection and a cat converter tucked away inside the exhaust piping.

We are hoping our bike continues production next year with these things retro-fitted, but only another half year will tell the fate of the Savage.

What has become clear though is that OIL IS STRICTLY ON US NOW, there is NO OIL STANDARD that supports our older antique flat tappet valve system any more as JASO has moved away from us.

Rotella products still do support our bikes "as-is" and they will likely continue to do so as their main job is to be a Heavy Duty Engine Oil and to support a wide range of big-assed farm and industrial / commercial equipment.

Sadly, NONE of the current JASO MA-2 "motorcycle oils" support us any more, the oils are reformulated for the new cat converter equipped bikes.

As far as JASO goes, JASO still covers the slippy clutch issue side of things so it is still needed for that aspect. The standard that we need to search for is JASO MA (which is now obsoleted by JASO MA-2 which sux).

Rotella is the only JASO MA rated oil you can buy locally. I thought we would find lots of "free shipping" oils on Amazon that we could use, but sadly we have only come across one (1) oil that meets our needs (and that stuff is way way overkill and you have to buy it by the case to get somewhat decent $11 a quart pricing).

The world has rolled on past us, our bikes are fated to wear out and die soon .... and in Hopey-Changey land that is thought to be an OK thing as we need to roll on over to electric motorcycles and get with the program, people.

Surprise !! We are more alert and better organized than that ....

Since there ARE no appropriate oils to search out, Boule's work with the ZDDP booster bottles is the way we will have to go as a list. We will become bumpers, just like every classic car list already has already become.

Boule will find us the least-cost, best ZDDP concentrate and we will all buy it and then we will have known amounts to put in with an oil change depending on just how sorry your base oil was this time.

Tongue

..... and I feel old this morning after having to type all this "getting obsolete" stuff about my motorsickle.

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #69 - 08/11/12 at 08:18:29

I was at the parts department in my local Suzuki dealer picking up a part for my friends GS650. While I was paying the parts guy I spotted their display of motorcycle oil and just to see what he would say, I asked the guy what oil he would recommend for an 87 Savage. He handed me a bottle of Suzuki "Sythetic Blend" 4 cylinder motorcycle oil and said that was THE stuff. I said that research shows that this oil does not contain enough zddp to protect the savage engine. He looked at me like I was from another planet. Kinda cocked his head sideways like an inquisitive puppy dog and said "huh?" I said "you know, anti.wear additive, helps protect engines with flat tappets like the Savage" To which he responded "um, er, I a, ya well I've never heard any complaints" So the moral is, don't count on any help from Suzuki when deciding on the right oil to use. Grin

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28769 L.A. California Gender:	Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Reply #70 - 08/11/12 at 08:22:54 or idjits from behind the counter.
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #71 - 08/11/12 at 11:47:35

Update on the boosters:

Rislone asks you to put 20% by volume (as in, 1qt additive in 4qts oil). It can be found at Advanced Auto Parts for only 9 bucks a quart, but I can't find what zinc content it has... must be low since you have to put in 20% by volume. Who knows if the oil they suspend it in is any good, what viscosity, dino or synth, .. screw it.

I found some clear stuff at AutoZone that is supposed to be a similar high-pressure additive, but the bottle said "does not contain zinc or phosphorus" so.. disqualified.

Eastwood makes a zinc supplement according to Google, but their website is horribly broken to my computer. If someone would get Eastwood's zinc concentration, price and availability, that would be awesome.

ZDDPplus edges out Redline. A 4oz container contains 6.35% Zn and costs ten bucks. Looking at just the zinc component, Redline costs $45.24 per ouce of Zn while ZDDPPlus only costs $39.37/oz.Zn.

ZDDPPlus is winning. Somebody look up Eastwood and maybe a couple others so we can move on to the blend chart.

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rfw2003 Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1108 Yantis, TX	Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Reply #72 - 08/11/12 at 12:39:31 On the bypass filtration system yeah I know it was just an idea didn't figure it would work out to well with the low pressure system. Didn't mean to hi-jack with those thoughts
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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #73 - 08/11/12 at 12:57:20

Read up thread, Rislone bumper is not recommended by Rislone for wet clutch motorcycles. Neither is Lucas bumper.

Please review your results again on Redline vs ZDDPlus:

ZDDPlus is one 4 oz container to do one 4-6 quart sump of car oil Cost=$9

Redline is 1/2 of one 16 oz container to do 4-6 quarts of car oil Cost=$7.50 bought w/free shipping from Amazon

This may be some differential on recommended total ZDDP ppm after you use the stuff to boost -- but it is worth checking into again.

Redline is bulkier, but that means we can measure it out by the full ounce or nyquil cap full -- we'd need an accurate cc syringe body to measure out a single Rotella bump dose of ZDDPlus for a single oil change in the Savage.

Concentration levels -- Redline is cut with synthetic racing oil and they use 16oz of oil and they use just as much ZDDP as will reliably stay in suspension. And you still have to shake it to get the white stuff off the bottom of the clear plastic bottle.

??? about ZDDPlus having that much stuff in only 4 ounces of carrier with it all staying suspended. ZDDPlus must be like syrup (and how much of your out of suspension goodie is gookin' up the bottom of that opaque little bottle?)

Base oil, I know that Redline base oil is a synthetic (which is why I would be using it as I use synthetic oils). Can't see where ZDDPlus says what its carrier oil is ...

Sulphur -- Redline puts back the sulphur that was taken out of oil at the same time the ZDDP was taken out of it.

??? ZDDPlus ???? I have never seen the whole list of contents really spelled out anywhere. Does it have any moly in it? It is a street type car product after all.

===========

Boule, we have no recommended local purchase oils really other than Rotella. When you are ready, unlock the Tech Post and delete it completely and replace it with your bumper mixing recommendations and instructions and we will go forward with that as it will always work.

Bumping Rotella is the stone cheapest way to go with an oil+bump as getting up to 1,500-1,600 is very easy to do with just a small bump. All other starting oils cost more than Rotella and they require a bigger bump to get there.

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Oldfeller--FSO Serious Thumper ModSquad Offline Hobby is now "concentrated neuropany" Posts: 12638 Fayetteville, NC Gender:	Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Reply #74 - 08/11/12 at 13:29:51 Fer shits and giggles You can buy the real McCoy in bulk from additive suppliers probably much much cheaper than you can from Autozone or Amazon. http://www.ganeshbenzoplast.com/components.html .... check out the composition of the stuff -- looks similar to Redline's contents.
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