|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344471408 Message started by Oldfeller on 08/08/12 at 17:16:47 |
|
Title: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/08/12 at 17:16:47 There is a Tech Thread called RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Just ask your questions and make your suggestions here in this thread. To make it easier on you, here is a copy of the text of the locked Tech Thread. This thread will be edited as new information becomes available. Our Savage motorcycle uses an antique flat tappet split rocker system to actuate the valves. Modern oils, motorcycle and car oils, are now formulated for catalytic converter equipped, fuel injected systems -- oil in general no longer has the levels of ZDDP necessary to support your 1987 designed Suzuki Savage. There is still debate as to the true minimum needed ZDDP level for getting the best life out of the antique Savage cam and split fork rocker tappet system. The current debated number is somewhere between 1,200 and 1,850 ppm of ZDDP with only the lesser number being available locally in a oil product without requiring the use of a mail order ZDDP booster (or a mail order oil). Most of us boost the Rotella products as that is the least cost way to get up to the higher ZDDP levels. The key thing here is for you to use the recommended high ZDDP oils (and ZDDP booster if you think you need it) as all of the currently bottled locally available "motorcycle oils" have abandoned the old Savage engine and are now formulated to meet the needs of catalytic converter equipped fuel injected motorcycles. Not following these recommendations may shorten the service life of your valve train and your valve guides. RECOMMENDATION FOR LOCAL PURCHASE: 1) JASO MA rated (we ignore JASO MA2 and JASO MB as they don't really apply to the Savage motorcycle) 2) Locally available at Advance Auto Parts, Autozone, O'Reilly, or Walmart. 3) Contain a minimum of 1,200 ppm of ZDDP (or have more) 4) Contains no moly or other energy star compounds to make your clutch slip 5) Reasonable cost, less than $8.00 a quart for the dino products and less than $12 a quart for the synthetic products. 6) A history of successful list use in the Savage motorcycle. So far the Recommended list for local purchase stands at: (pricing comes from Walmart) Dino -- Rotella T Triple Protection 15W40 $12.99 a gallon ($3.25 a quart) Synthetic -- Rotella T-6 5W40 $21.99 a gallon ($5.50 a quart) We will add more oils as they become available and prove out by VOA and list testing. ZDDP Boosters Since there are so very few suitable oils any more we will also list the Recommended ZDDP boosters that the mgf. recommends for use in wet clutch motorcycle engines. Most of these wet clutch friendly ZDDP boosters will require you to internet order them as they are not stocked locally. Please note: Lucas ZDDP booster which is stocked locally is not recommended by Lucas for use in wet clutch motorcycle engines. Ditto for Rislone ZDDP booster, Rislone won't recommend it for use in wet clutch motorcycle engines. Redline Break In ZDDP Booster $14.95 for 16 ounces Specs are at http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&pcid=1 Free Amazon Prime shipping is at http://www.amazon.com/Redline-81403-Engine-Break-In-Additive/dp/B00881GELC/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1344541824&sr=8-2-spell&keywords=redline+break+in+addative http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Images/L/1678.JPG Eastwood ZDDP booster (and also their other brand name ZDDPlus). These appear to be the same product by the same manufacturer, but generally the Eastwood brand name sells a few dollars cheaper and sometimes you can get free shipping on it from Eastwood. http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rYqcsInDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31ZOGwKFEvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg Check both brand names for the best pricing. order here http://www.eastwood.com/ew-zddp-oil-additive-4-oz.html or here http://www.amazon.com/ZDDP-Engine-Additive-Zinc-Phosphorus/dp/B003FWUWBM/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1344818830&sr=8-4&keywords=Eastwood+ZDDP+Oil+Additive or ZDDPlus http://www.amazon.com/ZDDPPlus-ZDDP-Engine-Additive-Phosphorus/dp/B002RNBO3U/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1344876112&sr=8-3&keywords=zddplus NEW LISTING: AMAZON.COM PRIME (FREE SHIPPING) OILS) We realize folks are going to have to get on line to source Savage compatible oils and boosters. AMAZON.COM has the best prices seen so far, so we list the appropriate Amazon oils here along with a notation if they are able to be shipped for free under Prime. We also know this Prime free shipping comes and goes according to whether there is stock on hand at your nearest Amazon owned warehouse, so PLEASE watch your shipping charges as you check out for any unplanned surprises. IF YOU WANT A REAL "overkill" SUPER-OIL (way way beyond reasonable needs) Redline 10W40 Motorcycle Oil is $11 a quart here (bought by the case). This motorcycle oil whups everybody on ZDDP by like twice over, so don't be looking for a measly mere JASO rating on it. Bill looks at this red stuff and is filled with angst and longing as it is within our $12 a quart budget and his Klotz is only half the oil this is and it costs even more (and then you have to pay for shipping on top of that). Specs are here http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=109&pcid=21 Free Amazon Prime shipping is at http://www.amazon.com/Red-Line-42424-10W40-Motorcycle/dp/B0084DZ08W/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1344618624&sr=8-3&keywords=redline+10w40+motorcycle To save yourself hassles, please carry all questions to the following Rubber Side Down thread called "RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS". This tread remains locked until edited by a moderator. (link follows) http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344471408/0 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Greg on 08/08/12 at 18:29:52 Golden 4 Semi-Synthetic 10w 40 has 1800ppm |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Charon on 08/08/12 at 18:36:45 We also must remember that true "racing oil" usually has little in the way of additives, because racing engines are torn down and rebuilt between races. The oil only has to last for one race, not for months of street use. In short, "racing oil" isn't really suitable for street use. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/08/12 at 18:47:55 4643444F4842210 wrote:
Fails rule #1, rule #2 and rule #6 Golden4 is a semi-synthetic four cycle motorcycle oil (non-JASO rated ??) that is available from Amazon for $8.99 plus shipping. http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Spectro-4-Semi-Synthetic-10W-40/dp/B0039OSHZE HERE'S THE INFO FROM SPECTRO Technical Knowledge Welcome to SPECTRO'S Goldenmotorguard.com At 1,800 parts per million, Motor-Guard has more than two times as much ZDDP as most available oils! (Not for use with catalytic-equipped vehicles.) Spectro Motor-Guard 4 Petroleum Lubricant is available in SAE 30, 10w40 and 20w50 viscosity, and contains superior anti-wear zinc and phosphorus additive packages for exceptional levels of protection, especially important in the high stress conditions of racing. Spectro Golden Motor-Guard Semi-Synthetic High Performance Engine Lubricant combines our finest grade mineral oils with Group IV PAOs to provide higher shear stability and exceptional durability. This product also provides phosphorus, and is offered in viscosity of 10w40, and 20w50. About Spectro Spectro products span the full range of full-synthetic, semi-synthetic and petroleum lubricants for all classes of “powersports” engine and transmission applications. The Spectro line also includes a wide range of suspension fluids, fork oils, brake fluids, coolant, chain lubes/waxes, filter cleaners and oils, and protection/appearance products. Spectro Motor-Guard products are sold exclusively through certified Spectro retailers in the United States, as well as through the Internet. Proudly Made In The U.S.A. Since 1966 Spectro Oils of America 993 Federal Road Brookfield, CT 06804 www.goldenmotorguard.com 800.243.8645 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by SALB on 08/08/12 at 20:32:30 Wouldn't hurt to add to table of contents with links! ;) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/08/12 at 21:22:47 If you go to the tech thread it leads you here -- it is already linked and indexed. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Foxman276 on 08/09/12 at 07:17:50 Our independent "research" is clear: use Rotella or your engine is doomed. [sarcasm] Thanks for making it easy to choose. Time to buy stock in Shell [more sarcasm] (politics deleted by OF) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Pine on 08/09/12 at 09:50:53 Not sure if this is the proper place to post( if not pleasse delete) Per the Redline web site, Oriely is a retail chain that stocks thier products. I went to the local Orieley and and in-deed they do sell Redline products but not all products and not every store will stock the same mix of products. The salemans was very nice and offered to buy a case of the Engine break in if I would supply him with the part number. Because i wanted something "right now" he offered some "Competition Cams" break in oil @ $18 ... but there was zero info on the container to make an informed decision. This was left over from a local engine builder. I then did buy some "Rislone Engine oil Supplement". This is a normal stock item at all Oriely stores. Cost was $12. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by sjaskow on 08/09/12 at 09:57:53 How about Mobil 1 V-twin synthetic from Auto Zone: http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Mobil-1-qt-SAE-20W-50-V-Twin-full-synthetic-motorcycle-oil/_/N-255s?itemIdentifier=153232 I've been using 20w-50 in my '06 since it was new. The web site says it's $10.99 per quart but I'm pretty sure I got it for about $9 last time since it was on sale. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 10:31:23 3A23283A22263E490 wrote:
This oil has been involved in quite a bit of controversy for the addition of moly and other forms of energy star compounds since it first came out. Spec'd for Harley, it was intended for a dry sump separate from the clutch gearcase so Mobil 1 felt free to add in "friction fighters". It is claimed to be reformulated twice now to remove these energy star compounds, but BITOG keeps finding them (at lesser levels) every time somebody does a VOA. Refer to discussions starting here, your oil was going to be listed but it got cut for energy star additives even before it got cut again for being reformulated yet again in just the last few weeks to MA-2. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1343699410/105 We have hopes that Mobil 1 will swing back to reality for Harley as that is a BIG market and we hope since Harley does not use a cat converter they will keep enough ZDDP to support our engine. The energy star stuff in the oil is still a rub since Mobil 1 likes to put it into the Harley oils due to the separate sump. We will see when the new packaging and JASO spec'd stuff actually grows a VOA or two. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rl153 on 08/09/12 at 10:34:22 OF ,does Rotella T-6 have enough zddp in it ,or do we have to add some? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 10:55:08 434A5946414A1E1D16162F0 wrote:
Which ZDDP number do you believe in? At 1,200 ppm it has enough as is, if you think the 1,500 number is correct you need a mild bump from a supplement. watch out, SAE N is real now and the amount of ZDDP has dropped again -- now the answer is "ya gotta bump them all". I bought my first bottle of RedLine Breakin ZDDP supplement when I put my Web Cam in -- Web wanted 1,800 ppm during the 500 mile break in so I provided it. That took like a quarter bottle to do which was a lot of booster, I probably went sailing past the 1,800 req'd. Simply bumping to 1,500 ppm would take a jigger shot (1 oz) or a Nyquil cap full. Why is RedLine ZDDP booster on the list? --- years of history of use in the Savage engine with no ill effects on clutch, etc. Other brands will be used and more experience will be collected with other kinds. Frankly, I am surprised that Lucas won't recommend their break in supplement for wet clutch motorcycles, and I wonder what strange things are in it to prompt this action on their part. Lucas and all the others use a dino oil as their supplement carrier oil, Redline is the only one I am aware of that uses a synthetic oil as their supplement carrier oil (which is why I started using it as I use synthetic oils in every vehicle I own). Face it, until this oil mess sorts itself out and we get a spec and name brands that CONSISTENTLY support our old bike engine we are all likely going to keep a bottle of ZDDP booster around. We trusted the JASO to separate suitable Savage oils from the car oils (which were not suitable at all and have gotten less so) but now JASO isn't making that separation any more so we have to do it ourselves. And let's talk about them Rotella products -- yeah I supported them in the oil wars in the past so I am seen as a partisan. Big deal, get over it. Right now the best thing about Rotella is it isn't changing on us all the time. It is the only major locally available brand that has remained stable through this last past upheaval in JASO standards and it isn't going to dump off it's ZDDP levels at a whim. If it had, it wouldn't be on the list right now either. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 11:36:41 764F4843524954260 wrote:
If Redline is available locally at your local O'Reilly, it is worth checking out. Redline uses big ZDDP numbers in each of their products, with the downside being that the majority of their products are RACING car products so please be careful which one you pick. They do make motorcycle oil, but the likelyhood of that being at your local O'Reilly is pretty slim unless you make a deal with your local manager to stock it. Like many of the specialty oils, you can order it from Amazon by the case. It is pricey, but good -- similar to Royal Purple or Amisol in price at retail (a lot less in Amazon's reality though) but it is very pure in intention similar to Klotz (same color as a matter of fact). I would not be surprised if similar base oils are used by the two companies. (and yes Bill, I just maybe mighta said something nice about Klotz in a sideways manner, but Redline publishes their contents, additives and ZDDP levels openly and Klotz doesn't) http://www.amazon.com/Red-Line-42424-10W40-Motorcycle/dp/B0084DZ08W/ref=sr_1_48?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1344535391&sr=1-48&keywords=redline+oil |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Pine on 08/09/12 at 12:00:58 0F2C2426252C2C2532400 wrote:
If Redline is available locally at your local O'Reilly, it is worth checking out. Redline uses big ZDDP numbers in each of their products, with the downside being that the majority of their products are RACING car products so please be careful which one you pick. They do make motorcycle oil, but the likelyhood of that being at your local O'Reilly is pretty slim unless you make a deal with your local manager to stock it. Like many of the specialty oils, you can order it from Amazon by the case. It is pricey, but good -- similar to Royal Purple or Amisol in price at retail (a lot less in Amazon's reality though) but it is very pure in intention similar to Klotz (same color as a matter of fact). I would not be surprised if similar base oils are used by the two companies. (and yes Bill, I just maybe mighta said something nice about Klotz in a sideways manner, but Redline publishes their contents, additives and ZDDP levels openly and Klotz doesn't) http://www.amazon.com/Red-Line-42424-10W40-Motorcycle/dp/B0084DZ08W/ref=sr_1_48?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1344535391&sr=1-48&keywords=redline+oil [/quote] To be clear: the offer was for the local retail chain to purchase a case of RedLine Engine Break in... thus it woud be "in stock" for me. I have not looked at buying any other Redline product. ALthough I have already added a "smidge" of the product : Rislone Engine Oil supplement: I think I should retract it as an additive for our Savage. From thier FAQ for the product: How is Rislone Engine Oil Supplement with Zinc Treatment different than break in additives? Break in additives contain extremely high concentrations of ZDDP and are only designed to be left in the engine for a short period of time. Many of these additives don’t contain detergents or other lubricity additives important to keeping your engine clean and lubricated for thousands of miles. Rislone Engine Oil Supplement with Zinc Treatment not only contains the correct amount of ZDDP, but also the other additives important to protecting your engine. Do not use as a break in additive. My take on the above is that the Rislone product will contain other "slickeners" that would preclude it from being a useful product for our wet clutches. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rl153 on 08/09/12 at 12:02:34 I just bought some redline to add to my Rot T-6. It can't do any harm to add 1 oz to the oil ,can it? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 12:13:27 3E37243B3C3763606B6B520 wrote:
Not by me, I'm on my second bottle now and I haven't had slippage or any other symptoms ..... ...... other than going to Dragon Run after Dragon Run and riding the bike all the way to and from them after leaving everybody there except BigZuk behind year after year. Including one slightly dead sportster I am accused of having killed maliciously. Btw, Dave's bike was already dead when he showed up, so I am innocent on that one. And although I cooked the bacon and burned the toast, I am innocent about the dog, too. MM served up the deadly toast to the puppies (and we thought he was being nice, like he always is). Fall possums, not so much. It is a shared responsibility since I am TRYING to miss them but they double back and into the tires. Did you know a fat possum pops jest like a water balloon when you hit him sideways with your front tire at mountain cruising speeds? YUK. Possum guts everywhere. Possums stink too. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Pine on 08/09/12 at 12:17:14 PS: I just called and spoke with the Rislone folks ( spoke with Fred). per Fred: Do not use with a wet clutch as it does contain friction modifiers not compatible with wet clutches. I asked if they offered ANY product that both boosted ZDDP and did not contain friction modifiers. Answer: NO. There you go folks. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 12:27:39 I see a pattern developing here, we can't buy good spec'd oils locally any more, but Amazon carries all of them at prices that are a lot less than we have been used to seeing. If you have a Amazon Prime account, shipping can be cheap on the Amazon warehouse stocked stuff as well. And lots of us already have Amazon Prime accounts to get the very good free TV and movie streaming that comes with the free shipping (prime is $79 a year with specials for $59 all the time -- it is a lot cheaper than Netflicks or Hulu when thought of as a yearly total fee) I bet the Savage nation is gonna become an Amazon nation pretty durn quick-like. :) Bill, perk up there buddy, no snoozing on the job. What is the price per quart of of the correct Klotz on Amazon.com and can you get it into the barn for less than $12 a quart that way, shipping included. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 12:54:21 This thread will be edited as new motorcycle oils are discovered that meet the following criteria: RECOMMENDATION FOR LOCAL PURHASE RULES: 1) JASO MA rated (we ignore JASO MA2 and JASO MB as they don't really apply to the Savage motorcycle) 2) Locally available at Advance Auto Parts, Autozone, O'Reilly, or Walmart. 3) Contain a minimum of 1,200 ppm of ZDDP (or have more) 4) Contains no moly or other energy star compounds to make your clutch slip 5) Reasonable cost, less than $8.00 a quart for the dino products and less than $12 a quart for the synthetic products. 6) A history of successful list use in the Savage motorcycle. We will also list the Recommended ZDDP boosters that the mgf. recommends for use in wet clutch motorcycle engines. Most of these wet clutch friendly ZDDP boosters will require you to internet order them as they are not stocked locally. Please note: Lucas ZDDP booster which is stocked locally is not recommended by Lucas for use in wet clutch motorcycle engines. Ditto for Rislone ZDDP booster, Rislone won't recommend it for wet clutch motorcycle engines. There is still debate as to the true needed ZDDP level for getting the best life out of the antique Savage cam and split fork rocker tappet system. The current debated number is somewhere between 1,200 and 1,500 ppm of ZDDP with only the lesser number being available locally in a oil product without requiring the use of a mail order ZDDP booster. The key thing here is for you to use the recommended high ZDDP oils (and ZDDP booster if you think you need it) as all of the currently bottled locally available "motorcycle oils" have abandoned the old Savage engine and are now formulated to meet the needs of catalytic converter equipped fuel injected motorcycles. Not following these recommendations may shorten the service life of your valve train and your valve guides. So far the Recommended list for local purchase stands at: (pricing comes from Walmart) Dino -- Rotella T Triple Protection 15W40 $12.99 a gallon ($3.25 a quart) Synthetic -- Rotella T-6 5W40 $21.99 a gallon ($5.50 a quart) We will add more oils as they become available and prove out by VOA and list testing. ZDDP boosters Redline Break In ZDDP Booster $14.95 for 16 ounces Free Amazon Prime shipping at http://www.amazon.com/Redline-81403-Engine-Break-In-Additive/dp/B00881GELC/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1344541824&sr=8-2-spell&keywords=redline+break+in+addative http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Images/L/1678.JPG NEW LISTING: AMAZON.COM PRIME (FREE SHIPPING) OILS) We realize folks are going to have to get on line to source Savage compatible oils and AMAZON.COM has the best prices seen so far, so we list the appropriate Amazon oils here along with a notation if they are able to be shipped for free under Prime. We also know this Prime free shipping comes and goes according to whether there is stock on hand at your nearest Amazon owned warehouse, so PLEASE watch your shipping charges as you check out for any unplanned surprises. AMAZON.COM Recommended oils and boosters Redline Break In ZDDP Booster $14.95 for 16 ounces Free Amazon Prime shipping at http://www.amazon.com/Redline-81403-Engine-Break-In-Additive/dp/B00881GELC/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1344541824&sr=8-2-spell&keywords=redline+break+in+addative (to save yourself hassles, please carry all questions to the following Rubber Side Down thread called "RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS". This tread remains locked until edited by a moderator. (link follows) http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=13444714 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rl153 on 08/09/12 at 13:49:38 This may have already been discussed ,but I want to ask, I read that adding zddp additives to oil with no moly is ineffectual ,because the zinc needs moly to work ,is that true? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 14:39:38 Who said that turkey stuffin' stuff? Moly (organic or otherwise) is a relatively new addition to car motor oils, commonly denoted by energy star on the label, whose purpose was to increase mpg more than make the engine live or last longer. ZDDP has been in use since the 50's and is the primary most effective anti-wear anti-galling, anti-oxidation additive that was ever put in engine oil. It is a shame that cat converters don't like it .... It has no dependency on moly (or vice versa) although they might fight for space at the outer chemical boundary zone of the auto's moving steel parts, when the moly gets wiped off by a friction touch then ZDDP will jump on the scraped bare spot and take its place and vice versa (they compete for the same boundary zone). Which one is quicker to jump on the bare spot, or which has more reserve troops in it's auto oil army I dunno, but I do know that moly makes wet clutches slip AND YOU DON"T WANT ANY IN YOUR BIKE OIL !!!! And you shouldn't have any, so your question is sort moot, ain't it? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Savage_Rob on 08/09/12 at 15:53:50 A couple of possible options... I don't know how well they fare with a wet clutch and didn't see anything in the product descriptions regarding that. Right now I guess I'm glad I got a trial 6-month preferred customer account a few years ago and bought a bunch of the motorcycle specific stuff that had higher ZDDP levels. I think I still have about 3 gallons left. It'll last me a bit. http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/images/ZRTthumbnail.jpg (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/zrt.aspx) AMSOIL Z-ROD 10W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/zrt.aspx) http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/images/ZRFthumbnail.jpg (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/zrf.aspx) AMSOIL Z-ROD 20W-50 Synthetic Motor Oil (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/zrf.aspx) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rl153 on 08/09/12 at 16:20:54 Thanks OF. I'm adding some tomorrow. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by ralfyguy on 08/09/12 at 16:37:42 5370787A797070796E1C0 wrote:
If Redline is available locally at your local O'Reilly, it is worth checking out. Redline uses big ZDDP numbers in each of their products, with the downside being that the majority of their products are RACING car products so please be careful which one you pick. They do make motorcycle oil, but the likelyhood of that being at your local O'Reilly is pretty slim unless you make a deal with your local manager to stock it. Like many of the specialty oils, you can order it from Amazon by the case. It is pricey, but good -- similar to Royal Purple or Amisol in price at retail (a lot less in Amazon's reality though) but it is very pure in intention similar to Klotz (same color as a matter of fact). I would not be surprised if similar base oils are used by the two companies. (and yes Bill, I just maybe mighta said something nice about Klotz in a sideways manner, but Redline publishes their contents, additives and ZDDP levels openly and Klotz doesn't) http://www.amazon.com/Red-Line-42424-10W40-Motorcycle/dp/B0084DZ08W/ref=sr_1_48?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1344535391&sr=1-48&keywords=redline+oil [/quote] So let's ignore the price and availability for a moment. Which one would you use? Redline bike oil or T-6? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 17:17:08 Amisol products are not sold locally or nor are they sold by Amazon. ================== I don't live in an imaginary world where price doesn't count. T-6 costs less than $5.50 a quart bought at the Wally local to me, and a 1 oz jigger of Redline booster costs less than a $1.25 when bought from Amazon. This gets me up into "the good stuff ZDDP range" no matter which number you believe in. Heck, let's be generous and let's try to exceed the ZDDP in Redline's bike oil and use a whopping big three jiggers of Redline booster on top of the 1,200 ppm in T-6. Total cost of T-6 plus 3 oz of booster = $9.50 for a fully ZDDP'd fully synthetic oil. Vs Shelling out $133 for a case of Redline 10w40 bike oil. I mean, its red, but so what? It is still $11 a quart and it is a week away from me. Plus, Redline makes racing oil and normal oil and motorcycle oil and the ZDDP reported for each different one is different on BITOG. But the bike stuff looks awful good, except for the 50 ppm of moly that is in the Redline bike oil that is. ZDDP looks very good though, almost beyond reasonable reason for an $11 a quart at Amazon.com type of oil. http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=109&pcid=21 wow Reality also says that I just changed my oil and I have up to a year to figure out my next oil change. And in a year, a whole lot is going to change about this situation. ;) ..... and in a year I will still have T-6 on hand and over half a bottle of Redline booster left. Although I will keep an eye out for results from Redline's 10w40 bike oil to see if any one does any VOA/UOA paired testing. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by ralfyguy on 08/09/12 at 17:21:43 So you wouldn't run T-6 without ZDDP booster anymore either? OF here ..... go back up and re-read the post on top of this one as I added info to it -- if I were gonna go to do oil war with Redline's bike oil I would need a bigger cannon than T-6 just by its lonesome. Does that stuff really have 2,100 ppm of ZDDP in it ???? wow If I were running a stock cam and had a stock Savage I'd run Rotella T dino and feel fine about it. I feel fine running straight T-6 now, although I admit to getting a touch of willy envy at the Redline ZDDP numbers, and you can buy it for $11 a quart from Amazon (but you have to buy a whole case to get that price). If BITOG backs these numbers they would be pretty amazing, verging on too too much. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/09/12 at 17:38:06 05262E2C2F26262F384A0 wrote:
Some not all independent bike shops sell Amsoil, like the one I go to for ordering my parts or minor issues I don't feel like working on. He sells it at a price between that of the amsoils preferred member price and retail price. But I do know it's not available everywhere. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 18:05:28 Yo !! Bill !!! 2,100 ppm Red stuff alert !!! http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=109&pcid=21 You gotta anything to say? Can Klotz do de same thang for $11 a quart? I'm a telling you, even bumping T-6 up with 3 ounces of Redline's booster I am getting up to within $2 of the Amazon.com price for the Redline motorcycle oil just to get a parity product. Redline is open about what's in it and it is mighty strong looking stuff. No secret ingredients like your Klotz. (now we will see if Bill is an honest type politician -- he loved Klotz when he didn't know what it had in it, so here comes a younger sexier red-head who shows and tells everything about herself -- and she is stacked, really really stacked) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/09/12 at 18:27:40 01222A282B22222B3C4E0 wrote:
;D ;D Now to be fair.. it says 0.25% zinc = 2500ppm, not 21,000. A mere doubling of the amount in Rotella T6, plus a pinch.. Still, I'll take THOSE bazongas. ;D ;D |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 18:47:04 I was being conservative and made her wear the g string bra, the zinc and the phosphorus combine together to make the real ZDDP number so I picked the lesser. One bazonga is slightly larger than the other (not unusual, btw). Then she started moving, and they jiggled on me and my decimal place shifted up some in my pants. Still eye opening though ..... Bill has got him some trouble over there in red-head land, fer shure. I don't think his Klotz comes within several bra sizes of those knockers. $11 bucks a quart ??? Knock it down a few more dollars with Amazon mega-huge style volume discounting and I might even buy some. ===================== Wally drops all their bike oils except Rotella and Amazon becomes "the place to go" to get your Savage oil cheap -- quite an eventful week this past week, wasn't it? It isn't over yet, all this oil churning fun. We need single quart or three-four quart pack shipping quantities and we need Amazon to start keeping it in their own warehouse so Prime zero shipping costs comes into play. Also need some current VOA testing ... everything is pretty old now. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/09/12 at 19:05:21 39342E373E2F3A293F5B0 wrote:
;D ;D Now to be fair.. it says 0.25% zinc = 2500ppm, not 21,000. A mere doubling of the amount in Rotella T6, plus a pinch.. Still, I'll take THOSE bazongas. ;D ;D [/quote] So the % does truly for the most part directly relate to a straight conversion to ppm with just a multiplier of 10,000??? How did you come about finding this out? I have read no where about this. I'm not questioning your knowledge about this I'm just trying to find were you come up with the direct relation to ppm R.F. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 19:10:52 1% equals 1 part per hundred, so it also equals 10 parts per thousand, 100 parts per ten thousand, 1000 parts per hundred thousand or 10000 parts per million Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_convert_1_percent_to_ppm#ixzz236UEPTCo |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 19:13:15 Tool to do it without old person brain fart errors getting into the mix. ::) http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/number/Percent_to_PPM.htm |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/09/12 at 19:19:16 Redline's web page states that there is 0.25% zinc (by weight) in their oil, so I just converted that to ppm. Oldfeller took the phosphorus count (0.21%) and converted that to ppm and generously took the lower number. One ppm is one part per million.. very easy to convert percentages to ppm as long as everything is by weight. Unless I have been seriously lied to by google, each molecule of ZDDP is made of 1 atom of zinc, 2 atoms of phosphorus, and some other stuff. My chemistry is too rusty to look into the weights of the other components of ZDDP and balance it out for a total ppm, but if their zinc and phosphorus is being put in as ZDDP, then the ZDDP must be at least the sum of the two, which is 4600ppm. I believe their zinc and phosphorus is being made into ZDDP because the atomic weight of phosphorus is just under half the weight of an atom of zinc such that 2 phosphoruses makes a 21 to a single zinc's 25. We need someone with a good chemistry head or some sort of x-ray glasses to get the full ZDDP number. Help, Charon!! Is it a D-cup or double D??? :D http://farm1.staticflickr.com/41/123156395_03086571d8.jpg |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 19:40:54 What we really need is a current VOA of the motorcycle product in question. Here is an old VOA of a car product .... sorta useless, I know. But the Blackstone lab data shows it to be in line with normal sorts of car racing oils .... (not double or triple D'd) http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=478218#Post478218 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/09/12 at 21:00:55 10333B393A33333A2D5F0 wrote:
Thanks just what I was looking for. :) Now I know for sure when I'm reading on results how to find out when they only list the percentages. R.F. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 21:40:37 Hark !!! What light by yonder window breaks ???? It is the red ester oils and the sour scent of bullshit doth smiteth up against mine nose and it cloggeth up mine sinnial cavities with suspicion. Follow along please, just watch the bouncing ball bounce along the sing along words for what MAY be an explanation of these overlarge bazongas in question, as to why we are having such issues giving too much credence for their natural development. Aye, and they may well be the result of clever chirrgeons wielding very sharp scalpels in a cunning way. First, riddle me this, when is an oil not an oil -- answer, when it is a TRUE PAO which is an ester, not an oil. Both Klotz and Redline claim to be ester based true PAOs, so it is a given that they are made of lighter weight ester molecules and then the oil itself weighs less per given volume. And oil is sold by volume, be it quart or gallon. But ppm is calculated by weight, weight of additive vs weight of ester/oil. If this is so, then the same amount of ZDDP (zinc and phosphorus compounds) will show up as a higher percentage by weight (and a higher ppm) than it would in a more normal petrol oil based product if it were mixed to the same quart volume of finished oil product. Now, having proposed a theory that might partially explain the double Ds -- riddle me this, would Blackstone Labs report it the same way or is their testing be "oil weight neutral"? I think the very accurately measured weight of the oil sample is an integral part of oil lab testing and it would be racked right into the ppm results. How could it not be since ppm is a weight based calculation? Now, are the inflated double D's fer real? Yes, I still think there is a lot of flesh in there, but the fact the lift mechanisms are air bags instead of hydraulics does tend to tilt some the measurements a little bitty tiny bit. Still, Redline racing oils are mentioned throughout their history to run at around the 2,500 ppm level of ZDDP. They are mentioned lots of times in racing oil discussions as having the highest ppm of ZDDP available. VOA results on this particular motorcycle oil will eventually tell the tale as Blackstone isn't in the advertising business, they are in the independent lab analysis business. :) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rl153 on 08/10/12 at 07:39:50 Hate to interrupt but,I read a 16 oz bottle of redline break in additive has 20,500 ppm zddp in the whole bottle .That means each oz has 1,281 ppm per oz. Is this right? So how much should we add to the rotella t-6 to bring it up to 1,500 ppm ?Thanks |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/10/12 at 08:15:02 What are you bumping? How much ZDDP does your base oil have in it already? And what is your goal ppm? Bumping instructions on the bottle go like this. 1/2 bottle will bump 4-6 quarts of auto oil (600 ppm) up to grade. What is grade to Redline? Quite likely a lot, Redline believes in a lot. We will ASSume it is 1,500 ppm or more since we are never told. So you got two quarts instead of 6 so you use 1/3 of recommended which is 1/3 of 1/2 = 1/6 to boost 2 quarts of 600 ppm auto oil up to snuff. But if you are boosting Rotella instead of sorry car oil (you have twice the 600 ppm already) so you need half of the 1/6 = 1/12 of 16 ounces or 1.3333 ounces So, you got a nyquil cap or pepto-bismol cap somewhere in your medicine cabinet that measures out an ounce. You can see the little ounce line down a bit from the rim, but instead you fill it up to the rim and call it good enough. Somebody can figure it out better, but this is the method based upon the bottle instructions and a nyquil cap. If you really were boosting just SN sorry car oil, you'd use two caps full. Don't forget to shake the bottle, the white residue on the bottom must be shaken into solution before measuring. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rl153 on 08/10/12 at 08:23:55 thanks, I was thinking of adding the redline to both my s40 which has rotella t-6,21/2 quarts, and my car ,which has 5-30 conventional valvoline oil 5 quarts. The valvoline has 800ppm zddp i think. I don't want to go too high with the zddp,so I thought I'd use 1 oz in the bike as you suggested, and 4oz in the car.Appreciate your input. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/10/12 at 08:53:39 5370787A797070796E1C0 wrote:
Darn those bazongas, you start looking at them and your eyes start going all spirally and before you know it, a quick cursory glance isn't good enough. Now you have to look some more, get your hands and whole face on them. While they may have a hypnotic effect, it is our scientific duty to be sure we are comparing apples to apples.. and watermelons to watermelons. Fortunately, when you DO have one in each hand, say a synthetic in one hand and a dino in the other.. bouncing and squeezing the jugs.. one does not feel appreciably heavier than the other. As an inexperienced MiddleAgefeller, I thought they were about the same until you mentioned that they aren't. Sure enough, at similar temperature and pressure, PAOs are about 60 kg/m3 lighter than dino-oil, or 7% asymmetrical. Hells bells! This is a shocking revelation, and we must heretofore use the proper straps, restraints, penalties and boosters to correct this most distressing condition. On both sides. But even considering any uh, padding that the new redhead may be using, you can't fake awesome. Redline says there's 0.25% zinc in there by weight, that's more than double the figured probable needed amount. However things are figured.. zinc per pound, zinc+phosphorus per pound, or some mail-order inflatable volumetric thing, the oil has at least 2500ppm zing to it. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/10/12 at 08:57:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_pressure_additive Educational materials for organic sulphur compounds which are included in Redline ZDDP booster. (hey, even if you were to dump in 16.6 grams of straight fine sulphur powder into the booster oil and mix it up good -- the result is an organic sulphur compound as the sulphur instantly bonds to the oil molecules.) Redline is neat because on their website they list everything that is in it and the sulphur compounds caught my eye as they too have been limited and removed by the same EPA mess that took out all the ZDDP. http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&pcid=1 Example, CI-4 HDEO's had a lot more sulphur compounds and a whale of a lot more ZDDP than any car motor oil ever did, the sulphur organics help to build a strong boundary film on bare steel parts. What you don't see in Redline booster are any energy star moly or other "bad for the clutch" additives. I wonder what was in Rislone and Lucas boosters that caused the manufacturers tech reps to shy away so strongly from wet clutches ..... |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/10/12 at 09:52:01 . OK, travelling back from Bonzonga Land, after having carefully tested the size/weight difference between the two to the point we have satisfaction they are truly large and "real enough" -- we shall list them under the Amazon category for those with larger pocket books who really truely wish to go make Bill squirm with red-stuff envy. Back to the question of enough. We have all read a good bit now, so we can take a swing at "enough" as pertains to the Savage split fork rocker/tappet engine now. 600 ppm is way way so not enough 800 ppm is so not enough 1,000 ppm is not enough 1,200 ppm is enough 1,500 ppm is comfortably enough 1,850 ppm is more than ample (rubinesque) 2,100 is somewhat difficult to control 2,500 likely might smother you accidentally |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by verslagen1 on 08/10/12 at 10:12:14 Since these are free floating atoms, browsing around for a bare spot of metal... wouldn't the ppm just be the length of time before oil change? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/10/12 at 10:57:21 Yup, we are counting the spare reserve troopers looking to get into a place in the front line trench so they can go to shooting at the enemy. When the fighting action gets hot & heavy and a mortar shell hits the trench (a touch event in the engine when the oil film breaks down) what you are looking for then is enough local spare troops to instantly pour into the gap to keep the enemy at bay as shortly another mortar shell or hand grenade is gonna hit on about the same spot and you will need yet another bunch of reserve troops to be able to pour in to hold your line. You can go to war with just enough troops to cover your front line (giving them enough time to move around and fill in all the gaps so they are one deep everywhere) .... and they will do jest fine in peace time exercises, but in the real war scenarios you got no reserve troops for any rapid deployment response in case of mortar fire or shelling or hand grenades (never mind all them pesky bullets flying about that do occasionally hit somebody). I thought this was basic Oil War 101 known by everybody around here -- and also remember it is good for your troops to be wearing that new fangled synthetic body armour so them overheating flame throwers don't knock them all out instantly when the enemy attacks using his heat weapons. ;) Check your paired VOA and UOA that are done by some folks -- halving the ZDDP is fairly common in these sets. Half your Rotella's start point and you have SN car oil that you are dumping out into the drain pain. But to Verslagen's point, we don't keep the oil in our bikes more than a couple of 3-5 thousand miles which is a lot less than the car guys do. So mebbe 1,200 is enough, comfortably enough, considering our quick change out rate. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rl153 on 08/10/12 at 11:13:24 what about this stuff ,zddplus? http://www.amazon.com/ZDDPPlus-ZDDP-Engine-Additive-Phosphorus/product-reviews/B002RNBO3U/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/10/12 at 11:31:07 I see ZDDPlus at 4 oz for $10 vs 16 ounces for $15 on the Redline, so simple economics might come into play as you only use half the redline for a big crankcase of oil, whereas the ZDDPlus is one per normal crankcase. At a nyquil cap per oil change, I can measure the Redline pretty easily, but how in the world are you going to measure out 1/12 of that 4 ounce bottle for a Rotella bump job? Plus I can't personally vouch for ZDDPlus as I have never touched the stuff ..... I can vouch for Redline. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by CalisOsin on 08/10/12 at 11:34:56 6960736C6B6034373C3C050 wrote:
I don't know a lot about oil, but I know how to do web searches, so I found this for the gurus here to peruse. The tech sheets for ZDDplus. (http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief7%20-%20Oil%20Additive%20Dosing%20and%20Dilution.pdf) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Savage_Rob on 08/10/12 at 15:37:06 575E4D52555E0A0902023B0 wrote:
Hang on a minute... I thought PPM stood for "parts per million", which is essentially a ratio or fraction. In this case, it would be 205/10000 (or 2.05%). That stays the same whether you are talking about a gallon or a teaspoon. That said, if you add one ounce of the something with 20500 ppm ZDDP to one quart (32 oz.) of something with 600 ppm ZDDP, you get 33 oz. with 1203.03 ppm. At least that's what I've come up with. Anyone have better math? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/10/12 at 16:17:52 PPM is based on weight, not volume. The oil has to be a weight, and the ZDDP has to be a weight. Quarts and ounces are just what we happen to pour it out in, not what it is specified in. Weigh the booster. Turn the ZDDP in the booster into simple grams of "booster powder" (since you know the ppm) as if you had taken it all out magically. Now divide it by 12 to get the "booster powder" per Nyquil cap. Do the same math to the remaining weight of oil to get the weight per ounce of empty oil. Weigh the bulk oil. Do the same magical removal from your bulk oil and state the total weight "booster powder" it contains and the total weight of the remaining bulk oil. Add the Nyquil cap's worth of booster powder and the existing oil's booster powder, then reverse the math with the original weight of bulk oil (less the weight of the bulk oil booster powder) plus the weight of 1 ounce of booster oil (less the booster powder course). The result should get close to reality. Why do it this way? You have booster ppm stated against the empty booster oil weight and the bulk oil ppm stated against the empty oil weight and the math to do the related rates intermixing of the two systems is calculus and that is well beyond my old fart pay grade .... ;) But heck, even I can turn them back into "booster powder" add them together then apply them to the weight of the oil (minus the powder) plus the weight of an ounce of booster oil (minus the booster powder) and I should get pretty close to reality. Or I could just follow the directions on the bottle ..... ::) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/10/12 at 16:18:30 This is directly from Redline's site on the product info for the ZDDP additive. Quote:
Hope this helps. R.F. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/10/12 at 16:25:35 Oh no !!! Yew threw That Durned Chart up there in front of EVERYBODY so you have to explain how it works !!!! .... increases of anti wear per quart my arse, and they don't even list 2 quarts .... .... what is that first ppm number? And then what is the second one? ..... |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/10/12 at 16:40:25 67444C4E4D44444D5A280 wrote:
LMAO if I knew how they figured that out I would be one of the chemists, I can't figure out the mathematical relationship between what is in the bottle to how they figure it will increase per what they list. I mean I'm good at mathematics but this doesn't seem right looking at the chart unless some special formula has to be used. R.F. ;D |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/10/12 at 16:50:31 I was digging through Amazon.com's Prime motorcycle oils to see what else they had that might be a nugget. (or a good Bill tweeker, either one) Found they had Royal Purple for $11.25 a quart, so I started to list it. Then halfway through posting the specs on the oil according to Her Royal Purple Majesty herself it it plainly stated that Royal Purple was JASO MA2 rated. Now, do you think Royal Purple is sooo durn silly they quoted a JASO MA2 spec that they say they meet that says they aren't allowed to have more than 1,000 ppm of ZDDP ???? hmmmmmm .... :) "The Queen has no clothes ..... she's buck arsed naked !!" |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/10/12 at 16:54:34 5370787A797070796E1C0 wrote:
I've never trusted the purple stuff myself, only syns I've used have been Amsoil and Rotella T6 And I will say the 1 and only reason I haven't been using Amsoil in my Savage or any motorcycle I've owned is because the sump capacity and filtration capacity is to small to realize the full benefit of using an expensive oil such as that. Now if it had the capacity to allow the extended change intervals I would switch to it and use it. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/10/12 at 17:00:19 Now that's got me thinking, wonder if there is an easy way to adapt a bypass filtration system to the Savage motor, doing this would also increase the oil capacity and filter capacity. :-/ |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/10/12 at 17:28:16 4D6E6664676E6E6770020 wrote:
Bah, just do a weighted average like Savage_Rob did. When they're making a supplement, they don't suspend the ZDDP in mercury or cotton balls. The density of the supplement is probably the same as the oil (most of the supplement probably IS oil) so you don't need to make it harder than it is. Next challenge is to find all the ZDDP boosters that advertise their exact concentration of ZDDP, their price per ounce, and who has the most ZDDP per dollar. Then we can do a blend table for Rotella and any other oils that make the recommended list. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/10/12 at 17:37:21 Sounds like fun, I'm sure you'll enjoy doing it. ;) watch out for the ones that aren't recommended for wet clutch bike engines Seriously though, I have gone through the Amazon oils now -- there are no more candidates other than the ones we already know are in the throes of reformulation. This sucks, I gotta believe that somebody is gonna grow a brain that they just can't dump off all the old bikes and cars and roll on without giving us something to put in our crankcases. Mobil, Exxon, Chevron --- all abandoning an entire market and just handing it over to Rotella ??? Really can't see that .... |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/10/12 at 17:46:10 64706124262625160 wrote:
Issue is the low pressure and volume of our oil pump system doesn't supply enough volume/pressure to do this except when we are running at half speed and better. Both Verslagen and I figured one out, but the silica build up problem (dust) in the oil rendered the idea moot. Thus my efforts at better fine dust filtration through a thick 2" oiled media -- the supermagnet stopped all the super fine ferrous junk but nothing so far can filter out microfine silica, so I tried to keep it from entering the system in the first place. :-? and then there is that personal quirk that I want to change my oil at least once a year regardless ..... .... and the fact the bypass systems looked ugly hanging off the front of the bike (like a set of forward controls). |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/10/12 at 18:05:39 Cool. I'll make a blend table for T6 and whatever additive comes out to the best deal ZDDP-wise. So far, the best one I know of is Redline. 15 bucks for a 16oz. bottle. Here are the specs from Redline: Bottle (16oz) contains: 33.8 grams total ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) 17,000 ppm, 7.8 grams Phosphorus (P) 20,500 ppm, 9.4 grams Zinc (Zn) 16.6 grams Sulphur (S) So that's 33.8g ZDDP (1.192oz.) for 15 bucks = $12.58/oz. Let's give it a few days for a better deal to come up and I'll make a spreadsheet showing how much of the winning additive to put into each quart of T6 to get a desired level of ZDDP. Y'all post up your competitors and keep it clean, boys (no moly :D) Of course it goes without saying, the vendor must publish either a percent zinc, ppm ZDDP, or total zinc or ZDDP in the container. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/10/12 at 18:06:48 1F3C3436353C3C3522500 wrote:
Issue is the low pressure and volume of our oil pump system doesn't supply enough volume/pressure to do this except when we are running at half speed and better. Both Verslagen and I figured one out, but the silica build up problem (dust) in the oil rendered the idea moot. Thus my efforts at better fine dust filtration through a thick 2" oiled media -- the supermagnet stopped all the super fine ferrous junk but nothing so far can filter out microfine silica, so I tried to keep it from entering the system in the first place. :-? and then there is that personal quirk that I want to change my oil at least once a year regardless ..... .... and the fact the bypass systems looked ugly hanging off the front of the bike (like a set of forward controls).[/quote] the low pressure oil system was my biggest concern about it. The external parts of the system could be hidden with a custom built scoop on the bike like one of the other members did to hide his horns. If the filtration system was setup right the silica would be removed as well, but the issue still remains on the oil pump not being up to the job. To bad no one out there will make a replacement pump that gives better performance :( |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by verslagen1 on 08/10/12 at 19:17:40 The oil pump is capable of producing 50psi at what... 4000 rpm or so? Isn't the oil filter bypass pressure less than that? most bypass filter require that much pressure to get the oil thru anyway. so there you go, tap the front port, dump it in the head. self regulating. only works at full throttle. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/10/12 at 19:42:58 7A697E7F606D6B69623D0C0 wrote:
yeah most are around 15 psi I believe. But I'll have to do more research to make sure on that. R.F. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/10/12 at 20:48:38 Mind you, that bypass valve is a 14-15 psi delta pressure between the inside of the filter and the outside of the filter, the bypass valve neither knows nor cares what the overall system pressure might be at the moment. The only environment it sees is whatever ambient pressure is inside the filter housing and the only differential pressure it responds to is between the inside of the filter and the outside of the filter. Example, you are booking down the road at 55 mph, ambient pressure inside the whole system (and the filter housing) is about 53 psi and holding pretty steady. The filter is beginning to plug up a little bit so it is only 42 psi inside the filter and the oil is struggling a bit to make it through at full flow. The bypass valve sees an 11 psi differential and it does not open just yet. Your critical parts see the internal pressure at 42 and the total flow of oil is slightly less than optimal. So you goose it on up to 72 to pass a car, the system pressure jumps to 67 psi and the internal filter pressure is still down at 51 psi. The bypass valve opens temporarily as it sees more than 14-15 psi differential between the inside and outside of the filter, the internal filter flow and pressure instantly goes up to 72 psi and you are bypassing some unfiltered oil temporarily during this pressure spike. This bypass oil is internal to the filter BTW, it doesn't go anywhere but down the filter pathway. When you rig up an external bypass filtration system you are robbing pressure and volume from the system that is NEVER returned to the system, it winds up back in the sump (if you are smart you'd dump it on the cam rocker junction from up top side and let it run down the bathtub pathway down the cam chain to the sump) Good news is that bypass oil really isn't THAT ugly dirty and the fact you still have lots of flow and pressure during the crunch periods is always a good thing. Our judgment during these bypass filter studies finally ground down to there just wasn't enough oil flow volume at lower pressure to go around -- you could only tap the system when it was at full pressure and then only for the last 5-8 psi of what pressure/flow was produced. We also could see some potential scenarios where the bypass system might lead to some lubrication issues if it were to get out of whack and re-route too much pressure/flow volume away from the main lubrication jobs of head, crank and gearcase (say it kicked in a little too early when flow volume was too low). |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by HondaLavis on 08/10/12 at 20:59:09 Sorry if I'm jumping in while you're in the middle of another conversation. Just trying to add another oil to the list. I've been using Castrol Act Evo Xtra 4T 10W-40. It is API-SG and JASO-MA2 rated, but it is 0.113% zinc and 0.103% phosphorous by weight. That would equate to 2160 ppm ZDDP, wouldn't it? It is also recommended for wet clutches. The only thing I DON'T like about this oil is that I payed $40 for a 1 gallon jug at my local Suzuki dealership. I bought this before I had ever read about this oil issue, but I can't see why it wouldn't fit the criteria for the bike concerning ZDDP. I've put 1,000 miles since my last oil change 2 months ago with no issues. You can view the Product Data Sheet here: http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/a/ActEvoXTra4T.pdf |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/10/12 at 21:04:34 You don't add the two numbers together, if you are feeling generous you use the larger one. This reformulation jobbie is one of the ones that alerted us that something was up in oil land, as the oil dropped its ZDDP concentration quite a bit when it when MA2 and it is no longer suitable for the Savage engine. It comes in on VOA right at 1,100 ppm of zinc with 990 phosphorus. You could bump it a bit with a ZDDP booster and it would be fine. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by HondaLavis on 08/10/12 at 21:13:46 I already bought another jug of Rotella anyways. I'll be changing my oil again this weekend after I fix my plug cap leak. It's become progressively worse, and it's screaming for my attention. After taking a second look at the owner's manual, should we REALLY make a big deal about getting JASO-MA rated oil? The only specifications the manual for my '01 recommends is the API-Sf or SG rating, which most current oils still meet. Are we SURE this isn't all for nothing? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/10/12 at 22:04:00 SF and SG are old obsolete oil specs that are not published nor are they enforced by API any more. API should re-issue the specs with both min and max ZDDP values that are clearly stated (and fully support our old bikes). Neither SF nor SG spec EVER called out a minimum ppm for ZDDP so the mgf. can pretty much put in whatever they want to. Mgf's put out oils that always had 1,400 -1,600 ppm of ZDDP back when these specs were current (flat tappets were the rule back then and there were no cat converters). Lucas quotes these specs and puts out 800 ppm, your guy does 1,100 ppm === both honor the spec rules ..... go figure. Hey, if you feel cuddly with 1,100 I would say it is only a spit and a fart away from 1,200 which is where I start to feel cuddly. See, we are almost related .... ;) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/11/12 at 07:00:37 4760616B6E436E79667C0F0 wrote:
We are sure it isn't for nothing -- oil has become something critical for the life of your bike that YOU must pay attention to. Why? We have old bikes on this list that date back to 1987. Up until 2000 the owners could put in anything that poured and it all had enough ZDDP in it to support their engine correctly (ALL oil was made with 1,400 to 1,600 ppm of ZDDP because flat tappets were the prevalent valve system in America. Bike oils came in at 1,350 ppm minimum up until a month ago). 5 levels of EPA driven CAFE standards over the next 12 years gutted our oil by cutting the ZDDP levels they could put in it to less than half of what it was before. This cutting didn't happen to motorcycle oils until a month ago. But up until a month ago we still had bike oils that were written to JASO MA standards and they all had about 1,200 to 1,350 ppm of ZDDP so we could point to JASO and say "use the bike oils" and we got what we needed. Now cat converters have come to bike land. You can't buy a new bike 2013 bike that doesn't have a computer, fuel injection and a cat converter tucked away inside the exhaust piping. We are hoping our bike continues production next year with these things retro-fitted, but only another half year will tell the fate of the Savage. What has become clear though is that OIL IS STRICTLY ON US NOW, there is NO OIL STANDARD that supports our older antique flat tappet valve system any more as JASO has moved away from us. Rotella products still do support our bikes "as-is" and they will likely continue to do so as their main job is to be a Heavy Duty Engine Oil and to support a wide range of big-assed farm and industrial / commercial equipment. Sadly, NONE of the current JASO MA-2 "motorcycle oils" support us any more, the oils are reformulated for the new cat converter equipped bikes. As far as JASO goes, JASO still covers the slippy clutch issue side of things so it is still needed for that aspect. The standard that we need to search for is JASO MA (which is now obsoleted by JASO MA-2 which sux). Rotella is the only JASO MA rated oil you can buy locally. I thought we would find lots of "free shipping" oils on Amazon that we could use, but sadly we have only come across one (1) oil that meets our needs (and that stuff is way way overkill and you have to buy it by the case to get somewhat decent $11 a quart pricing). The world has rolled on past us, our bikes are fated to wear out and die soon .... and in Hopey-Changey land that is thought to be an OK thing as we need to roll on over to electric motorcycles and get with the program, people. Surprise !! We are more alert and better organized than that .... Since there ARE no appropriate oils to search out, Boule's work with the ZDDP booster bottles is the way we will have to go as a list. We will become bumpers, just like every classic car list already has already become. Boule will find us the least-cost, best ZDDP concentrate and we will all buy it and then we will have known amounts to put in with an oil change depending on just how sorry your base oil was this time. :P ..... and I feel old this morning after having to type all this "getting obsolete" stuff about my motorsickle. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by 87 savage on 08/11/12 at 08:18:29 I was at the parts department in my local Suzuki dealer picking up a part for my friends GS650. While I was paying the parts guy I spotted their display of motorcycle oil and just to see what he would say, I asked the guy what oil he would recommend for an 87 Savage. He handed me a bottle of Suzuki "Sythetic Blend" 4 cylinder motorcycle oil and said that was THE stuff. I said that research shows that this oil does not contain enough zddp to protect the savage engine. He looked at me like I was from another planet. Kinda cocked his head sideways like an inquisitive puppy dog and said "huh?" I said "you know, anti.wear additive, helps protect engines with flat tappets like the Savage" To which he responded "um, er, I a, ya well I've never heard any complaints" So the moral is, don't count on any help from Suzuki when deciding on the right oil to use. ;D |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by verslagen1 on 08/11/12 at 08:22:54 or idjits from behind the counter. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/11/12 at 11:47:35 Update on the boosters: Rislone asks you to put 20% by volume (as in, 1qt additive in 4qts oil). It can be found at Advanced Auto Parts for only 9 bucks a quart, but I can't find what zinc content it has... must be low since you have to put in 20% by volume. Who knows if the oil they suspend it in is any good, what viscosity, dino or synth, .. screw it. I found some clear stuff at AutoZone that is supposed to be a similar high-pressure additive, but the bottle said "does not contain zinc or phosphorus" so.. disqualified. Eastwood makes a zinc supplement according to Google, but their website is horribly broken to my computer. If someone would get Eastwood's zinc concentration, price and availability, that would be awesome. ZDDPplus edges out Redline. A 4oz container contains 6.35% Zn and costs ten bucks. Looking at just the zinc component, Redline costs $45.24 per ouce of Zn while ZDDPPlus only costs $39.37/oz.Zn. ZDDPPlus is winning. Somebody look up Eastwood and maybe a couple others so we can move on to the blend chart. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/11/12 at 12:39:31 On the bypass filtration system yeah I know it was just an idea didn't figure it would work out to well with the low pressure system. Didn't mean to hi-jack with those thoughts ;) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/11/12 at 12:57:20 Read up thread, Rislone bumper is not recommended by Rislone for wet clutch motorcycles. Neither is Lucas bumper. Please review your results again on Redline vs ZDDPlus: ZDDPlus is one 4 oz container to do one 4-6 quart sump of car oil Cost=$9 Redline is 1/2 of one 16 oz container to do 4-6 quarts of car oil Cost=$7.50 bought w/free shipping from Amazon This may be some differential on recommended total ZDDP ppm after you use the stuff to boost -- but it is worth checking into again. Redline is bulkier, but that means we can measure it out by the full ounce or nyquil cap full -- we'd need an accurate cc syringe body to measure out a single Rotella bump dose of ZDDPlus for a single oil change in the Savage. Concentration levels -- Redline is cut with synthetic racing oil and they use 16oz of oil and they use just as much ZDDP as will reliably stay in suspension. And you still have to shake it to get the white stuff off the bottom of the clear plastic bottle. ??? about ZDDPlus having that much stuff in only 4 ounces of carrier with it all staying suspended. ZDDPlus must be like syrup (and how much of your out of suspension goodie is gookin' up the bottom of that opaque little bottle?) Base oil, I know that Redline base oil is a synthetic (which is why I would be using it as I use synthetic oils). Can't see where ZDDPlus says what its carrier oil is ... Sulphur -- Redline puts back the sulphur that was taken out of oil at the same time the ZDDP was taken out of it. ??? ZDDPlus ???? I have never seen the whole list of contents really spelled out anywhere. Does it have any moly in it? It is a street type car product after all. =========== Boule, we have no recommended local purchase oils really other than Rotella. When you are ready, unlock the Tech Post and delete it completely and replace it with your bumper mixing recommendations and instructions and we will go forward with that as it will always work. Bumping Rotella is the stone cheapest way to go with an oil+bump as getting up to 1,500-1,600 is very easy to do with just a small bump. All other starting oils cost more than Rotella and they require a bigger bump to get there. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/11/12 at 13:29:51 Fer shits and giggles You can buy the real McCoy in bulk from additive suppliers probably much much cheaper than you can from Autozone or Amazon. http://www.ganeshbenzoplast.com/components.html .... check out the composition of the stuff -- looks similar to Redline's contents. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/11/12 at 13:45:36 41626A686B62626B7C0E0 wrote:
Very nice, wonder if they sell in less then 55 gallon drums though :P |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/11/12 at 14:34:58 Yeah maybe we can do a group buy on one of those 55gal drums, LOL. Duly noted that a certain amount of dilution is desireable to make the additive more forgiving when measuring and adding small amounts. But then, since Rotella comes in gallon containers, one could just do a premix batch with the whole gallon and use that for oil changes.. probably better than trying to jigger in tiny amounts straight into the crankcase. I'll be using the final product in my DR650 which probably doesn't have the exact same volume of oil. So maybe the mix table should be per gallon, or whatever size the Rotella jug is. On further looking I see zinc is only 27.8% of the mass of ZDDP. When I figure up the ZDDP based on the manufacturer's claimed zinc content, plus the fact that Rotella has almost enough already.. yes, a little booster is going to go a long way. A highly concentrated additive does have the advantage of not putting a significant amount of unknown "conveyance" in your oil.. but it is good to know that Redline uses a good synthetic for that. I will recheck my math and make sure ZDDPlus has the most ZDDP per buck, more than Redline. It does not matter at all, what they recommend for a typical car oil change.. to take the ZDDP concentration from one unknown level to another unknown level. They can simply recommend less ZDDP as adequate, to make their product seem more attractive price-wise. I will recheck the prices and levels, as well as make sure ZDDPPlus has no friction modifiers. Since there are so few good candidates popping up, I think I'll do a table for both Redline and ZDDPPlus. That is, unless something better springs up. Edit: Also.. forgot to mention that the ZDDPlus vendors offer 4 and 6-packs of their 4-oz containers, so you get a small volume discount that could help defray the cost of shipping. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/11/12 at 15:09:08 Here is the mysterious Redline booster table in it's native html format, which makes sense when seen this way -- there is also listed at the very bottom the "approved formula" for doing it mathematically which will be kinda nice for you to have. http://www.nitemareperformance.150m.com/ZDDP.html |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/11/12 at 15:15:14 5370787A797070796E1C0 wrote:
very nice to have, just saved that link. Looks like 1/4 bottle to each gallon of Rotella would put us right in the ball park for what oils used to be, at about 1890 ppm on the zinc side. So each bottle of Redline would mix up 4 gallons of Rotella of either the dino or syn version with a 1890ppm zinc concentration. R.F. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/11/12 at 15:20:26 Hey OF where did you find Redline booster by the quart? you have it listed on the first post as 1 quart for $17.99 I'm only finding it in the 16oz bottles which is 1/2 a quart. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/11/12 at 15:24:35 Corrected on Tech page & posts -- you are correct, a quart is 32 ounces. phewwww ..... it (sound a brain fart makes, exiting out through your ear) Boosting a quarter bottle of Redline into a gallon jug of T-6 results in VERY AMPLE amounts of ZDDP, actually up in the "make Web Cam happy during hot cam break in" range. Boosting just two ounces into a gallon jug of T-6 would get me up into the very comfy 1,545 ppm range |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/11/12 at 18:35:17 57747C7E7D74747D6A180 wrote:
Honestly, I am not certain. I scoured their website looking for anything else that might be in it other than ZDDP and didn't find anything. I doubt it has any friction modifiers other than ZDDP. On the other hand, there's this bit of CYA from one of their engineers: http://forum.guzzitech.com/component/jmrphpbb/topic/1431.html?f=196&start=210 Quote:
We need someone with the balls to test ZDDPPlus in Rotella the same as you have done with Redline. Any other contenders out there we should look into? Here is a table from ZDDPplus that says how great their stuff is compared to the others, but does not mention Redline. http://www.zddplus.com/imgs/lab_additive_test_results1.jpg |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by ralfyguy on 08/11/12 at 18:48:26 So if you'd buy a '13 bike, are you gonna have rollers in any bike and brand? And if not, what oil are you gonna run? Are you gonna have to decide whether to kill your cat or your motor? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Cavi Mike on 08/11/12 at 19:34:25 I'm pretty sure I read that the Savage is discontinued due to these changes. That would mean it's a non-issue. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/11/12 at 20:18:12 I looked at the ZDDPlus website and saw their competitive claims table too. It simply says that ZDDPlus product is the most concentrated of the bunch listed (but we already knew that). I also saw the outside lab analysis which listed zinc and phosphorus as the only ingredients, so I leave the moly issue out of it at the moment as that indicates there isn't any moly (or any sulphur) in ZDDPlus. Base oil is still a question, I would suggest that the size of the bottle indicates it is bottled straight out of the 55 gallon additive maker's drum and has some, but very little, suspension oil to it at all. An ounce or two is all the suspension oil you have, so the ZDDPlus solids will NOT be staying in suspension and IT WILL be gooped up around the bottom of the little bottle. The response to the Guzzi guy was humorous -- yes, if you had JASO MA oil available at 1,350 ppm then use that "as is" was a reasonable enough response. Issue is that the only JASO MA oil left is Rotella and quite frankly that used to be on the weak 1,200 ppm end of the JASO MA oil spectrum (a whopping ancient few weeks ago) back before MA-2 reformulations began. Saying "follow your instructions from the bike maker" is weak and very vague because the the bike makers could have never guessed what oil makers were going to do with those obsolete, no minimum ZDDP ppm number required completely unenforced SF, SG and SH specifications. Lucas is the best example of that, putting out SM car oil and calling it bike oil. I think with our Savage instructions they were referring to the "then commonplace" 1,400 ppm to 1,600 ppm SF and SG oils that have not existed now for a decade, and they were certainly not referring to the neutered 800-1,000 ppm stuff that is being put out in JASO MA/2 bike oil land in the last few weeks. It is an issue that hasn't chased itself out yet. But then any oil will get you out of a one year warranty period and they do like to sell new motorcycles -- the bike mgf. didn't screw up the oil -- it isn't our fault, go sue Lucas over your knocky engine claims. Mixing the little ZDDPlus bottles into the gallon jugs of Rotella is probably going to make the mixing pretty durn easy, just remember to shake the gallon jug good before pouring out the second two quarts. =============== We got Dave and two other new ones complaining about the knocking now. Ticky's we got by the dozen. What is scary is that new current year Savages are bought new by women, screwed up oil-wise by stealerships and boyfriends and then sold off to us pre-damaged when she gets tired of it. To us, it is too late -- tappet/cam surface scarring has already begun. Case depth on rockers and cams is measured in single digit thousandths, and the lobes on the cam are considered "service max wear" when they have lost only 118 of those thousandths. Scrub through the case depth and 118 can come see you pretty quick. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/11/12 at 21:34:55 Not much tech info here, but it is 30% cheaper for the same amount and it does the same thing as ZDDPlus. Plus, if you sign up to get e-mails you get free shipping for your order (then when your stuff actually shows up shipped for free you go cancel them bothersome email notices of course). http://www.eastwood.com/ew-zddp-oil-additive-4-oz.html?utm_content=12269%20Z&utm_campaign=Shopzilla01&utm_source=Shopzilla&utm_medium=Merchant-Centre&SRCCODE=1SE0761 http://blog.eastwood.com/tech-corner/zddp/ "They are saying you need to add one 4-oz bottle to each oil change of 4-5 quarts. Leveled out, figure it takes one ounce to one quart of oil. Even in quantity =1, this stuff costs less than 2 bucks an ounce. I guess maybe that's cheap though, when you consider the alternative and the fact that you can use it in any old off-the-shelf motor oil." |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by ralfyguy on 08/11/12 at 21:50:36 6D4F58476347454B2E0 wrote:
No, I was talking about ANY new bike out there. Do they all have rollers now, or why can they run oil with not enough additives? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/11/12 at 21:58:42 This is a new honda bike engine. Honda has stopped all direct valve actuation through cam & bucket with this year's new designs -- it is all single cam roller action now. http://images.gizmag.com/gallery_lrg/honda-integra-700-twin-cylinder-superscooter-5.jpg http://images.gizmag.com/gallery_lrg/honda-integra-700-twin-cylinder-superscooter-8.jpg |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by ralfyguy on 08/11/12 at 22:30:26 5B7870727178787166140 wrote:
Nice engine! I like it. So every brands motor is equipped now with that? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/11/12 at 22:36:01 The older designs still being sold are cam & bucket type (suzuki & kawasaki) but the cam lobes are large and the buckets are huge to cut down on the contact force. Honda and Yamaha leads the pack into the new eco friendly age, their new single cam roller designs could likely be able to survive with veggie oil in the sump. :-? (just kiddin', I think). Hell, I can clearly remember the stink of the fish oil Honda used to run the bikes in on in Japan, then they drained it and shipped it empty to the USA in a crate. I had a summer job with Honda of Raleigh putting bikes together out of the crate when I was in college .... In the parking lot, the CB 450 was much lighter and faster off the mark than the CB 750 (heavy, bulky & slowwww). |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/12/12 at 00:02:11 http://www.amazon.com/Zddp-Maxx-Shipping-additive-Phosphorus/dp/B003MAG004/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1344752879&sr=8-6&keywords=ZDDP+Oil+Additive Here is another one, this one is only 2 ounces of liquid so it has NO added carrier oil at all, jest the straight syrupy ZDDP component straight from the 55 gallon drum (it will be all ooky & stuck all over the bottom of the little bottle fer shure where the combined heavy metals went out of solution) Price isn't as good as the Eastwood, is same price as the ZDDPlus. Instructions lead me to think it is less effective at boosting than the others. Info is here http://www.zddpus.com/ZDDP_Maxx_p/zddpmaxx-5bottle.htm http://www.zddpus.com/v/vspfiles/photos/ZDDPMaxx-1Bottle-2.jpg |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/12/12 at 06:41:57 Dang, that Eastwood is cheap. Here's a 4-oz bottle for 6-something: http://www.amazon.com/ZDDP-Engine-Additive-Zinc-Phosphorus/dp/B003FWUWBM/ref=sr_1_4?s=automotive Can anyone (who's browser works with their stinking website :D ) find the actual ZDDP in it, or at least a percentage zinc? If the concentration is comparable to ZDDPplus, we got us a winner. If they don't divulge their zinc content.. too bad. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by 87 savage on 08/12/12 at 06:52:59 777A60797061746771150 wrote:
Bouletard, Thoroughly checked out the Eastwood site and the only info is the MSDS, no PDS. Dont know if the info is available elsewhere but I'll see if I can dig it up. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Foxman276 on 08/12/12 at 07:07:07 For any Canadian members, ZDDPlus is available at http://www.autopartscanadaonline.ca/zddplus-oil-additives/ One bottle is $10CAD, 2 for $20, etc. Shipping for 2 bottles is $5. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by 87 savage on 08/12/12 at 07:22:09 Bouletard, it appears that zddplus is made by Eastwood. The specs on zddplus state one 4oz bottle to 5 quarts oil (does not say what grade, just says 160 ozs of oil) would give you 1800 ppm of phosphorus, zinc is a little higher. Here's the chart: http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief1%20-%20Introducing%20ZDDPlus.pdf Therefore I would be inclined to think the one packaged as Eastwood oil additive would be the same as zddplus given they are made by the same company and are bottled in the same little 4oz bottle. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/12/12 at 08:01:12 Well that's weird, how come that PDF says the phosphorus to zinc ratio is 0.717 and this pic from the same site says it is 0.802? http://www.zddplus.com/imgs/5-Quart_Oil_ZDDP_Dosing.jpg Just going by the weights on the periodic table, I thought it should be 0.947. Maybe they are putting more zinc in there than is in the ZDDP? Eastwood and ZDDPlus probably scoop from the same barrel, but we sure could use some numbers and not have to make that assumption. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/12/12 at 08:24:39 Jaso-MA 4T oil like KLOTZ and your worries are over. No boosters needed. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/12/12 at 08:37:23 3F3431316B6A5D0 wrote:
Coming from a man that won't change the oil in his bike because he actually believes some company did the impossible and made an oil that does NO WEAR in the engine. That's in the same class as all those peeps that fell for Slick 50 and ended up with stopped up oil pump screens and filters. R.F. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/12/12 at 09:34:35 This reminds of something a fews years back.WMD WMD WMD and it was all a farce. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/12/12 at 11:51:11 I see different weight ratios quoted for the zinc and the phosphorus in the ZDDP on several of these sites. Don't know enough to explain that fact. Stuff that is sooooo concentrated you can't get the sediment of the bottom of the bottle mebbe might leave some portion of the goodie behind when you poured it out each time. Mebbe. (zinc is heavier, right?) Redline has a clear bottle, and it has clear instructions to shake the piss out of the bottle before pouring as some ZDDP does come out of solution even with the big 16 oz of carrier oil. Good news is -- if you can get it all out of the little bitty bottle and into the gallon Rotella jug, the suspension package in Rotella will likely keep it up in suspension until you need it. I'd shake it up real real good though. And I'd shake the piss out of it again before pouring out that last 2 quarts after sitting for most of a year .... ;D |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/12/12 at 12:29:31 Bill wants Weapons of Mass Destruction --- somebody show him the Redline motorcycle oil specs. Here you go, Bill -- bury your face in these. The new red head on the block is younger, much sweeter, a good bit less costly (w/free shipping) and she is definitely better stacked than your old red head ever was. Take a deep breath first though before starting, she tends to smother you a bit. http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=109&pcid=21 :D ... and people say we aren't nice to old Bill -- introduce him to brand new wimmen all the time, we do. Hey Beatrix !!! Lookie over there at what your Bill is up to with that new red head girl. :o :o :o Bill !!! You mangy .... (swish swish) Eeeeeeek !!! :D <hee hee> ... hey Bill, you dropped something there buddy. Need a hand? Here ya go -- might wanna get that sewed back on right quicklike, don't 'cha you know. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/12/12 at 13:11:08 Caution! Caution! Your S40 will self destruct by high noon tomorrow if you don't use rotella oil,Motorcycle oil will just not work in the S40. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/12/12 at 13:25:50 72667732303033000 wrote:
Coming from a man that won't change the oil in his bike because he actually believes some company did the impossible and made an oil that does NO WEAR in the engine. That's in the same class as all those peeps that fell for Slick 50 and ended up with stopped up oil pump screens and filters. R.F.[/quote] rfw 2003 is that slick 50 what you use on your hair. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by HondaLavis on 08/12/12 at 15:00:33 Thought I'd throw another couple cents in here. http://www.torcousa.com/technology/ZEP.pdf Weight by percentage: 1.95% zinc 1.68% phosphorous 6.8& sulfur |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/12/12 at 15:22:35 This stuff claims to be a perfect mixture of moly, phosphorous and zinc. It might be good in a separate sump muscle car, but not in a motorcycle with a wet clutch shared sump. Moly we don't need in a wet clutch motorcycle engine, so this one isn't in consideration for the moly content that it is so proud to tell you about in the very first sentence. http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/twincamtech_2224_406155185 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/12/12 at 15:43:43 It will be a sad day for Bill whenever Klotz wakes up from its nap and reformulates itself to JASO MA-2 ..... Bill will be heart broken. His old red head was the only girl he dated who never tried to smother him to death or else tried repeatedly to cut his head off with a Hattori Hanzo sword. :) http://https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQRRyDG5a-8VdGUPVhHqE6Nq4eoiLALCdTmaECKHKwKVlTaHt50 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Charon on 08/12/12 at 15:51:54 That'll make a real WMD - William's Miserable Day. Which might make a change from William's Mad Delusions. Or William's Misleading Descriptions. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/12/12 at 16:02:21 0B2820222128282136440 wrote:
Klotz is for off road use so any reformulations will be for the better. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/12/12 at 16:21:08 Let's not get confused, MX4 was the four stroke motocross oil with the high ZDDP numbers, that was for off-road use. The street motorcycle stuff's ZDDP level was a SECRET ingredient, remember, so when they get around to changing it they don't even have to announce they are doing it (but JASO MA-2 will pop up on the label). Why is it that none of these motorcycle oil guys proudly announce the neutering of their products to JASO MA-2? Mobil 1 was the only ones with enough chutzpa to say "Reformulated, New and Improved". .... or enough stupidity, take your pick |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/12/12 at 16:28:02 I use the Mx4. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/12/12 at 16:45:18 This one? http://www.amazon.com/KLOTZ-OIL-MX4-10W40-KL-860/dp/B002LTJ7QG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1344813436&sr=8-2&keywords=klotz+Mx4 http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41fe6cC2azL._SS500_.jpg |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/12/12 at 17:16:13 Yes but the 15w/50,I highly recommend it. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/12/12 at 17:17:44 404B4E4E1415220 wrote:
Coming from a man that won't change the oil in his bike because he actually believes some company did the impossible and made an oil that does NO WEAR in the engine. That's in the same class as all those peeps that fell for Slick 50 and ended up with stopped up oil pump screens and filters. R.F.[/quote] rfw 2003 is that slick 50 what you use on your hair.[/quote] Oh heck no. I would never use a snake oil for anything :) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/12/12 at 17:29:59 The tree huggers, PETA and the SPCA will all come after you for wringing the oil out of them snakes, Bill -- they say snakes have feelings jest like people do and it hurts them a whole lot to be bunched up and twisted round and round and round like that until the snake oil all oozes out. ;) Bill uses a $14.45 a quart (plus shipping) motocross 15w50 full synthetic in his Savage. And he complains at us that we use a full synthetic HDEO that costs less than $6 a quart (less than $7 a quart after I boost it with an ounce of Redline booster to get the same ZDDP that is in his twice as costly Klotz). To each, his own I guess. Mebbe I am cheap, after all .... ::) http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41-E3KmsE6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/12/12 at 17:31:35 Thats the cheapest insurance to can get. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/12/12 at 17:41:27 Ah, you speak of insurance ..... Bill, will Klotz warranty you a new engine if something oil related happens to your engine? What sort of engine replacement/repair warranty does Klotz have on its mysterious, top secret mix? ========== http://www.shell.com/home/content/rotella/warranty/ .... and according to Shell, this warranty does indeed apply to motorcycles ever since they rated the product JASO MA. :) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by 87 savage on 08/12/12 at 17:51:28 616C766F6677627167030 wrote:
Bouletard, looking at both charts they are drawn identical with both charts comparing to GM EOS Also the phosphorus concentrations are identical, just expressed as a percentage instead of ppm. Do believe it is the same stuff. In fact if you look at the MSDS, they are from the same company. Oldfeller, based on the numbers in the chart, 1oz zddplus in 1 Gallon of T6 would give a combined total of approx 1575 ppm phosphorus and 2200 Zinc. At $12.00 per 4oz bottle shipped that would treat 4 gallons or approx $1.50 per oil change! :D |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/12/12 at 18:00:10 68656B6C7B7D383E3031090 wrote:
Bouletard, looking at both charts they are drawn identical with both charts comparing to GM EOS Also the phosphorus concentrations are identical, just expressed as a percentage instead of ppm. Do believe it is the same stuff. In fact if you look at the MSDS, they are from the same company. Oldfeller, based on the numbers in the chart, 1oz zddplus in 1 Gallon of T6 would give a combined total of approx 1575 ppm phosphorus and 2200 Zinc. At $12.00 per 4oz bottle shipped that would treat 4 gallons or approx $1.50 per oil change! :D[/quote] order here http://www.eastwood.com/ew-zddp-oil-additive-4-oz.html or here http://www.amazon.com/ZDDP-Engine-Additive-Zinc-Phosphorus/dp/B003FWUWBM/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1344818830&sr=8-4&keywords=Eastwood+ZDDP+Oil+Additive Eastwood on sale at $6.59 for four ounces (shipped for free if you give them your e-mail address) sounds like the winning stuff, then. My Nyquil cap has quarter ounce markings, so we are likely good to go even if you were like me and were gonna treat the actual Savage crankcase full. (I use most of my T-6 in my car "as is" so I can't bump it in bulk). |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Cavi Mike on 08/12/12 at 19:58:06 bill is the resident Klotz employee. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/13/12 at 10:28:29 Cleaned up the tech post as we have found 1 free shipping Amazon oil that has the required ZDDP. I was hoping for a bunch of them, but no, only 1. Tightened it all up and put in the Eastwood and ZDDPlus boosters We just need Boule's mix instructions and we are done with oils until the JASO frog jumps again (and unless he jumps backwards his next jump will just get worse for us Savage people). |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by RidgeRunner13 on 08/13/12 at 10:45:45 Could be worse, OF. I just spent 2 hours tracking down an oil that meets VW Oil Standard 505 01 for their PD TDI diesel engines. :( Found on a VW TDI forum that Rotella T & T6 met other standards set forth in their owners' manual but has not been tested for VWOS 505 01. :-/ TDI diesel apparently have narrow cam lobes & have cam issues similar to a LS 650. :o |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/13/12 at 10:56:50 Well, heck -- get you some Rotella T-6 and bump it and use that jug for your diesel car and your Savage. Bumping is sorta addictive, I still think a stock Savage can live on straight T-6 (or T if you like dino oils) but if I am gonna bump I might as well hit the 1,550 to 1,650 bump band and be "plenty safe". ============= fair warning -- when they force HDEOs to drop ZDDP levels again lots and lots of bikers and truckers are all gonna be really really pissed off at our government. This is money exiting our pockets, and it is STUPID to boot. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by verslagen1 on 08/13/12 at 11:30:07 I think the saving grace will be the big industry approvals. http://www-static.shell.com/static/rotella/imgs/240x178/tp_viscosity_grade.jpg |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Charon on 08/13/12 at 11:53:44 I just stopped in to visit the local Suzuki - Kawasaki dealership. While there I briefly glanced at the oils on display. There were both Suzuki and Kawasaki branded 10W-40 conventional oils, and both claimed to meet both MA and MA-2 specs. I didn't think to look for other ratings. Nor did I look at semi-synthetics or full synthetics. By the way, for those wondering where all the S40s are, he has a 2011 S40 on the floor, new, with 6 miles showing. The engine has no black treatments whatever. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/13/12 at 21:11:55 476C65766B6A040 wrote:
I wonder what that means? MA didn't really say much about ZDDP, it said the clutch shouldn't slip during a specified series of tests and it shouldn't have more than a certain, lower amount of sulfur. Now MA-2 says less ZDDP and even less sulphur and according to BITOG you can drift out of weight grade during some of the testing and that is OK with MA-2 oils. :-? Come on, you can't be MA and MA-2 at the same time, the amounts allowed and the test procedures are different. If you were whacked in the head you might try to say ANY TRUE MA-2 OIL has less than the MA sulfur level (true) and less than the MA ZDDP level (true) and it does pass a MA wet clutch test and MA standard doesn't actually say anything about dropping out of weight grade (the old assumption was this was a bad thing for any oil to do, btw, but it wasn't a stated rule per se) Here is a source to help you dope through it all, but I can say is I think it is IMPOSSIBLE to really meet MA and MA2 at the same time with the same oil. They are in conflict on some items. http://www.motorcycleanchor.com/motorcycle/how_to/mc_oil.html Somebody is just "chaining specs" like they do with the API sf/sg/sh type nonsense. "MA-2" in the joint MA/MA-2 would rule if you use the API rules, but JASO isn't API based at all -- completely separate form of testing. What does it really mean? ::) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/13/12 at 21:55:46 Here it is ..... in all of it's conflicting glory http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV1105.pdf |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by 87 savage on 08/14/12 at 02:38:39 4C6F6765666F6F6671030 wrote:
Ok Oldfeller, let me see if I got this right. JASO T 903 is the standard by which oils submitted for approval are tested, and, MA/MA1/MA2/MB are the grade or class the oils that meet or exceed the test results fall into? Two tings stood out to me. Only API SG and later oils were considered, and, in the chemical properties chart phosphorus content was listed as a percent between .08 and .12 which is 800- 1200 ppm. Talk to me OF, is that not sufficient? OF talks to him :) 1,200 ppm ZDDP is only currently available through the HDEOs mainly because they are not under the control of the motorcycle industry. The highest bike oil VOA'd lately had 1,100 ppm of ZDDP in it and that is not enough for a flat tappet engine like the Savage. We are grateful we can still get $5.50 a quart full synthetic with 1,200 ppm of ZDDP from Rotella T-6 and I personally use it. It is feared that this will not last, that a new diesel standard may upset this apple cart too. Buy yourself a bottle of booster and get used to using it -- it is the future of Savage oil. Most of us booster bottle equipped folks are running 1,550 to 1,850 ppm using 1,200 ppm Rotella products as the least cost per quart start point oil with the highest starting ZDDP. Quite a few here still do run Rotella straight, but they also remember last year when 1,200 was considered to be the bare minimum number that was good for the Savage and most bike oils had ZDDP in the 1,350 ppm range. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/14/12 at 07:41:35 Watch out when they chain the API specs, the latest one listed controls the ZDDP shooting match. SJ and later are equal to or less than 1,000 ppm. SJ was the first API spec to list a maximum ZDDP number, the first spec to give a range (min and max) was SL and that was a very low 600 to 800 ppm range. SF, SG, and SH have no ZDDP minimum number as part of their spec. Nobody had even thought about putting in less ZDDP back then and large numbers of were expected back in the day when those specs were current. Nobody worried much about cat converters, either as they died way early anyway. There wasn't any strict yearly tail pipe testing either. You may have visions of 1,400 ppm dancing around in your head, but the bike oil vendors are actually giving you 800 to 1,100 ppm off the old obsolete SF, SG and SH grades. No minimum number provided in the spec, remember? =============== If API grades control the ZDDP you got trouble because folks like Lucas are claiming the earlier grades but by recent VOA are only providing 800 ppm of ZDDP. Remember, no minimum numbers in the old specs ..... So, you got a range of 800-1,200 by API spec and quite a few vendors who are providing you the small end of that range for fear of buying some bike cat converters along the way. We here on the list are providing ourselves a more head functional 1,200 to 1,850 by bumping. We have listed the very few JASO clutch tested oils that give 1,200 and up in our recommended listing. We have also listed the clutch friendly ZDDP boosters that are currently available. Looks like other than posting Boule's mix spreadsheet we are about done with the oils for awhile -- oil and the life of the bike's top end is on you now, Savage owner -- you have to either search out good enough oils or else bump some up yourself. This current oil reformulation mess isn't over yet -- it will get worse as more cat converter equipped fuel injected bikes hit the showrooms. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rl153 on 08/14/12 at 13:09:15 I"m curious OF ,what did you end up doing , Straight T-6 or an ounce of redline in your oil? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/14/12 at 13:37:50 I'm waiting fer Boule's spreadsheet to make sure I'm a doing her right. No, I bumped when the cam was new, and have pretty much backed off lately (although I may start up again as 1,200 ppm sounds pretty low right about now) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/14/12 at 16:37:32 No reply to my questions from Eastwood, in 2 working days. They are probably in legalistic unhelpful CYA mode. It is still kind of risky to assume it is the same product as ZDDP plus. Anyway, I will work up the mix tables for both Redline and ZDDPplus/Eastwood. Gotta kid-watch and get to some honeydo's, but we'll definitely get some zinc ratios nailed down. Anyone know what a gallon of T6 weighs? :D |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by 87 savage on 08/14/12 at 17:29:35 Well, at the risk of really muddying the waters.... Have you seen the other 4oz bottle of zddp for sale on ebay? zddpmaxx. I cannot find any specs let alone a PDS. The website for the company selling it is "zddpus.com" Bottle looks just like zddplus. Can't help but wonder if This guy/company talked Eastwood into bottling their product under his label. At any rate, it sells for $7.49 shipped for (1) 4oz bottle. Couldn't help myself. I bought one, should be in thursday. Maybe there will be more info on the bottle. :-? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/14/12 at 18:30:16 I sure appreciate your looking into the alternatives, 87 Savage. I think ZDDP plus is informative enough to work with. The other ZDDPplus likenesses don't seem to want to go beyond "Put 4 oz. of this in your next oil change, and yer good! :D " Well, that's crap. That's the essence of snake oil.. when they won't tell you exactly what it is and how much is in there. We don't want to mess up our clutch packs by adding some unknown friction modifier, or adding too much ZDDP. So I will make blend tables for the two additives that DO specify zinc or ZDDP quantity, and are not suspected of having anything but ZDDP. There's still the caveat that things may be a little off if one wants to save a couple bucks on a chickenshit brand. And by that I mean the product(s) may be perfectly good, but some of the vendors are too chicken, or lazy/ignorant, to even state what is in the product (and at what concentration) so the end user can make an informed choice when taking his own risks. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/14/12 at 18:40:23 373A20393021342731550 wrote:
Never mind, I got density from the MSDS. :) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by clearush on 08/15/12 at 22:37:07 What about the Texas TEA motorcycle oil, they have it rated JASO-MA only the MSDS isn't particularly clear on the "Zinc and other compounds" amounts http://www.texastealubes.com/uploads/TEXASTEA._MSDS_Motorcycle_10W-40_API.PDF and neither is their spec sheet http://www.texastealubes.com/uploads/TEXASTEA_TechnicalData.pdf sold on Amazon here - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004NPO8LU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&smid=A2LTUIVJPBI43W 6 quarts for $40 or http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006ER7L0U/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_til?tag=tl0d64-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=B006ER7L0U&adid=04A781MAC1F2AEM99K7P&&ref-refURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.texastealubes.com%2FProducts_O5D4.html 5 gallons for $88 I can come up with a car oil VOA on BITOG - http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2668465 but that is thier Car Oil not their motorcycle oil but not sure what difference it would make? I guess I could try it and send it in a Motorcycle oil sample for my own VOA. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/16/12 at 09:06:30 Their price on the 5 gallon pail is quite nice, $4.40 a quart, but the car oil VOA you found sucked rocks for ZDDP (which is common for all car oils). High performance racing oil. API JASO MA/ MA 2 SL/CF is not very encouraging. MA2 and SL say 600-800 ppm of ZDDP to me. Their weight on the big pail is interesting -- 0w40 weight. We could use that weight if it is all they have at the good price. Their web page does not list the 0w40 weight, so it may be old leftover stuff from a special run or whatever. Call them up and ask them for their ZDDP content ppm in their bike oil in general, and for this particular 0w40 oil in specific. At $4.40 a quart it is worth the phone call or e-mail. Also ask if the 0w40 being sold on Amazon is current production oil -- somebody may be moving some old pails of 0w40 oil at a bargain price. Or it could be a typo. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/16/12 at 11:29:25 Buy and save all the Zddp you can buy,In 5 years it with be worth more per ounce than gold.If you don't believe me just ask OF. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/16/12 at 11:39:00 Yup, they won't take dollars for it but it will always be worth its weight in engines .... (most ZDDP is made in China nowdays) ::) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by HondaLavis on 08/16/12 at 12:30:50 Oil producers are required to print all specs on the bottle, right? A local shop has dozens of QT jugs of Castrol 4t in both 10W-40 AND 20W50. All of them are printed ONLY with the JASO-MA and API-SG, SH ratings. None of them say anything about JASO-MA2 or the newer API's. According to Castrol's website, their current oils are all JASO-MA2, so I'm thinking this may just be a of NOS oil. Should I bite? :-? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/16/12 at 12:49:18 Sorry, Castrol (the MA stuff) was found to be a ZDDP lightweight when tested last year -- even Castrol recommends their Castrol Edge product to the classic car guys (but the whammy there is the friction modifiers that Castrol puts in all car oils). Castrol's latest 4t motorcycle claims to adhere to API SL specs, and you know what that means. You'd be paying extra for an oil with less in it than Rotella products are known to have. The old stuff on the shelf may be better than the current MA-2 Castrol, but it isn't as robust as Rotella (just more expensive). |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by HondaLavis on 08/17/12 at 00:39:06 01222A282B22222B3C4E0 wrote:
Yessir, I do. I couldn't find the PDS For the Old Castrol MA oils on their site. I'm glad you knew about their tests. It's a shame it's still a lightweight. I think it was only $3.50 per QT, and it was at my PX so it'd be tax free. (military) **sigh** No matter, I've already bought Rotella, and I'll be changing out that good-for-nothing Castrol Act-evo semi-synth the DEALER suggested... >:( I'll fill 'er up after I finish reassembling my head cover. My new head plug comes in tomorrow! :D |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Hotrodchriz on 08/17/12 at 09:12:42 Has anyone tried the Valvoline motorcycle oil? Also has anyone seen the stp oil treatment bottle (blue bottle) it now says that it contains zddp in it. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by 87 savage on 08/17/12 at 11:11:44 5453484E53585F544E55463C0 wrote:
Hey Hotrodchriz, I saw that too! But it doesn't say how much and the STP website doesn't give any info either?? :-? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Arnold on 08/17/12 at 11:38:14 I use the Valvoline oil for years now, the JASO rated stuff but recently added a shot of ZDDP additive. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/17/12 at 12:36:17 The new MA-2 Valvoline sucks just like all the rest -- the highest Valvoline we have seen in the last 2 years (apart from Valvoline racing) was 1,100 ppm. You can pay more money for Valvoline and bump it a lot (since you start at 800 ppm) or you can start with Rotella T and just have to bump a little. Up to you, really. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/17/12 at 13:40:17 KLOTZ no bump up needed it a premium motorcycle oil. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by MarcosS40 on 08/17/12 at 14:09:33 7E7570702A2B1C0 wrote:
Tell me again Bill, How much is that klotz a quart??? I work @ an autoparts store and I can get Gallons of Rotella dino 15-40 for $17.50. ;D |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/17/12 at 14:20:20 Yugo's were cheap too. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/17/12 at 14:23:08 494247471D1C2B0 wrote:
Lets see it may have the ZDDP levels, but it costs to dang much, it's not available to be able to run right out and grab a bottle in hand just about anywhere in the U.S., according to you it doesn't get dirty, so why use a filter?? but if it's not picking up anything and changing color the oil isn't doing it's job period. You claim no wear at all with it, that's complete non-sense there is no way to totally get rid of wear in an internal combustion engine if it's actually run. I could go on and on here but I won't. I'm just pointing out some major flaws in your assessment of Klotz, even when it's already been proven that our engines run cooler, indicating less friction on HDEO's then your red stuff. R.F. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by MarcosS40 on 08/17/12 at 14:50:49 5D56535309083F0 wrote:
I'm sorry Bill but you failed to answer my question? How much a quart, Bill? Even after buying Redline Zddp booster and adding $2.00 worth to a change I'm still only looking at around $12.00 -$13.00 per change total. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/17/12 at 15:09:05 Do you guys really use cheap oil in your cars too.I think it was about $27 a quart and worth every penny of it.Are you guys on welfare? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Hotrodchriz on 08/17/12 at 15:12:14 795A5250535A5A5344360 wrote:
So what would u say, use the Rosella T and Add a shot of zddp? Would the stp work? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/17/12 at 15:22:07 3A3134346E6F580 wrote:
Rotella is only cheap in price, not it's performance. As to your question just asked, I use Amsoil in all my cages R.F. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by MarcosS40 on 08/17/12 at 15:30:42 4D46434319182F0 wrote:
No I work. Quite hard and about 50 hours a week and I don't have money to WASTE on bullshit smoke and mirrors or special red syrup that doesn't allow my engine to wear. (yeah, right!) I don't have money to burn and I am not an Idiot. Both of which you must have and be! Don't look now but it's a 1500-2000 dollar used motorcycle at best. Not a Ferrari or a racing machine. and here is a quote from Klotz's web site pertaining to their 20-50 Motorcycle techniplate oil, and I quote... " Fill crankcase to manufacturers recommended level. Change lubricant when it becomes discolored with engine contaminants or as recommended by manufacturer." It says change lubricant when it becomes dirty with engine contaminants. Hmmmm? Guess that would all be blowby carbon deposits and no metal wear huh? and also " change as recommended by the Manufacturer". Hmmm. If I have to change it at the regular intervals anyway. What am I really gaining by using Klotz? My formula of Rotella and booster isn't wearing out in the 2000-3000 miles of a normal change interval. WHY PAY MORE??? If YOU want to WASTE your Money on pipe dreams you go ahead. I've got better things to do with the money I save. I've only been a member for a couple of months and I'm already tired of hearing about Klotz products. Please, Give it a rest. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/17/12 at 15:40:43 Thats when you should change any oil. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/17/12 at 15:45:29 26213A3C212A2D263C27344E0 wrote:
So what would u say, use the Rosella T and Add a shot of zddp? Would the stp work?[/quote] STP is very low in ZDDP (it does have some) but it is very heavy in long polymer chain thickeners which ARE NOT RECOMMENDED for wet clutch motorcycles. Thickeners do bad things to your coefficent of friction inside the clutch giving you a fine case of the wonk. ================== Bill, be careful now about recommending MA-2 Klotz motorcycle oil to people. The only Klotz you got that is mebbe a known quantity right now is the dirtbike MX4 stuff and that old ZDDP data is quite possibly out of date now that the motorcycle oil world has rotated right out from under all the older bikes. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Savage_Rob on 08/17/12 at 15:45:38 At various times in various engines I've tried Golden Spectro, Royal Purple, Amsoil and a few others but have never tried Klotz - possibly because I've never seen it on a shelf. Maybe it's all that and a bag of chips, I don't know. I'm using Amsoil in my Savage right now because I bought it in bulk at a decent price. However, I'm down to my last gallon and have become convinced that Rotella T6 with a ZDDP Plus boost will offer comparable performance at a significantly better price point. That's pretty important to me because I want to continue to pay my mortgage, get my kid through college and just maybe manage to save enough to one day stand a chance of retiring before I'm too old to enjoy it. On a lighter note... For some reason, whenever I see the name "Klotz", I picture lumpy milk coming out of a half-gallon carton. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/17/12 at 15:57:53 7240574046447E734E43210 wrote:
How much more a year would it cost you to use Klotz.And divide by 365. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/17/12 at 16:05:36 63686D6D3736010 wrote:
Twenty seven bucks a quart. Dude! Are you out of your f*cking mind. You can pick up Klotz for $15 a quart off Amazon, and Oldfeller was making fun of you for even paying that much. But then, "you get what you pay for" so your $27 quart of Klotz must be better than a $15 quart of Klotz. ;D Noobs: Do not expect to get into a serious discussion will bill67 or the slightest bit flustered about any of his comments. He will anger and annoy you until you figure out his dry-sarcastic sense of humor, then he's all right. Took me about a year to start enjoying ol' Bill. ;) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/17/12 at 16:07:45 How much Techniplate does Rotella have in it? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Boule’tard on 08/17/12 at 16:12:44 How much Gooberzonky does Klotz have in it? My oil has lots, yours has none. Therefore, I win. ;D |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/17/12 at 16:12:54 Tell us what Techniplate is (or to get current, what SUPER TECHNIPLATE is) and I am sure we can tell you. If it is the red food coloring stuff, none (our oil is a brunette, not a red head). :D :D :D Bill, since your red oil doesn't darken when it gets old, what does it do? (answer: freckle, sag and wrinkle a whole lot) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 08/17/12 at 16:13:33 23282D2D7776410 wrote:
None, There is no Klotz in Rotella. Shell is smart enough not to put that red syrup in their oils ;D ;D |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 08/17/12 at 16:17:05 Shell is smart enough to make motorcycle oil,You guys should go together and buy a big volume of it from overseas if you want to use shell oil. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/17/12 at 17:37:37 Only Bill would go to Europe/Asia to buy a more expensive product that isn't as good for our Savage as what we can buy at Walmart in the big blue gallon jugs. And only Bill would think that it was a good deal ..... |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Digger on 08/17/12 at 19:20:13 4A4144441E1F280 wrote:
Cars? Who said anything about cars? This is a bike forum. Besides, Bill, only pansies drive cars (see my signature block)....... |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by clearush on 08/17/12 at 19:50:43 71525A585B52525B4C3E0 wrote:
That 5 gallon pail is not the other oil I was looking at, the 6 quart pack is the JASO-MA rated oil. I was being to quick with the copy paste links and didn't fully read the description :( sent off an email to thier sales department we shall see if I get a response at all. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by ralfyguy on 08/17/12 at 23:17:07 I bought the last two quarts of T-6 that was left on the shelf at Walmart and dump the abused oil and take pictures in the morning while it is still cool out. I hope they will restock it though... I'm curious myself how the stuff looks like, although I rode to work every day since then, and that was two weeks ago. OF mentioned before that a Savage motor can not get hot enough to kill T-6 without heat...we will find out in the morning. I stole a couple of aluminum baking pans from the wife to make a nice display of the dump... |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/12 at 00:34:59 Oh, the suspense ...... Bill is jest dancing over there by the edges with anticipation. :D Now, here is the thought --- pour the oil off carefully into a cleaned dry capped milk jug when you do the pan analysis. Why? 2 reasons, 1st reason = the oil will settle out even more over several months as the loose carbon goes lower & lower in the milk jug. It will be slow, but it will happen as the months roll by. When you empty the jug, the carbon residues will be readily visible coating the bottom of the jug. The rest of it will look about like T-6. 2nd reason = lawnmowers and chain saw bars need oil too (and I am betting your T-6 looks about like 100 mile T-6, which is only slightly used). Lastly, I hope you covered the pan because them bugs love Rotella and they likes to go skinny dipping in it every chance they get. Betcha find more soggy bugs than clumps or sludge buggers ..... or erl klotz of any sort or kind or description ..... ;) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by MarcosS40 on 08/18/12 at 04:06:38 65574057515369645954360 wrote:
+1 :) Couldn't agree more! |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by ralfyguy on 08/18/12 at 12:18:40 486B6361626B6B6275070 wrote:
It's raining cats and dogs and I don't know when it's gonna stop. I hafta do it outside. Always the same crap. When you're off on the weekends, the weather sux... |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/12 at 16:37:21 :) ..... and now he has to separate out all the rain water from them skinny dipping flying bugs. The pictures should be fun !!! Leave it a week or two and you'll get some tadpoles and skeeter larvae. Once you have a real eco-system started, soon you will get some bottom feeders showing up like the klotz shown here, a parasitical sludge sucker that lives in the Gulf Coast region on the south end of his migratory pattern but can range as high as Alaska during the summer months. http://https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSLzZp6LgIKbICVIOKM3xmNRqG_MIYk5L3GhbVIU63XYSbXWUqj Looks sorta like Bill from the side, don't he ? Fair warning, if a klotz shows up in your oil pan you now have a bona_fide wetland swamp incident and that situation then falls under WRAPs. Yeah, that is Wetlands Regulatory Assistance Program, care of your feddy government. All klotz incidences in your state should be cause for federal intervention/regulation. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/12 at 16:57:45 Think I may have stumbled across why Rislone and Lucas boosters won't recommend them for use in wet clutch bike engines. "Rislone Engine Oil Supplement with Zinc Treatment contains copolymer esters (Tackifier) that have an affinity (attraction) for metal surfaces. This allows the oil to hold onto the metal surface instead of just running off like normal motor oil does over time. This along with the ZDDP creates a double layer of protection." Sounds like it would do the same thing inside a wet clutch, doesn't it? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Gyrobob on 09/02/12 at 05:06:40 All this discussion is quite informative, and obviously done with concerned and knowledgeable effort. This kind of discussion is what makes this forum so effective. And enjoyable, As you might guess, I want to use the best oil I can for the Double RYCA Build bikes (one of which is running, btw), and for the 2004 FJR-1300 I have for trips, grocery getting, etc. I also don't want to be a chemist having to acquire various equipments and chemicals to make up a proper brew of lubricant. I have the normal sources available to me for oils,... WalMart, Amazon, Autozone, Advance Auto Parts, O'Reilly's, bike shops, etc. -- From these sources what is the simplest way to purchase and mix a good oil (meaning proper zddp levels) for my bikes? -- I'd like to have a statement something like, "For each quart of Rotella T6, add a tbsp of Redline Break-in Additive, shake it up and pour it in." -- I will categorically dismiss any statements containing any words starting with klo. Much thanks to you all for "giving a s**t" -- Bringing this to our attention -- Doing the research -- Making the recommendations -- Certainly saving us truckloads of money and misery |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 09/02/12 at 06:14:41 Why would someone use a motorcycle oil in a motorcycle,They would have to be absolutely nuts. ::) :o |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 09/02/12 at 09:36:24 Boule wrote the mix instructions by the gallon jug to make it simpler to do the measuring. source, Tech Section ZDDP Booster Table http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1345080430 (and you can try explaining to Bill that T-6 is a motorcycle oil) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Gyrobob on 09/02/12 at 11:05:06 2F22382128392C3F294D0 wrote:
Twenty seven bucks a quart. Dude! Are you out of your f*cking mind. You can pick up Klotz for $15 a quart off Amazon, and Oldfeller was making fun of you for even paying that much. But then, "you get what you pay for" so your $27 quart of Klotz must be better than a $15 quart of Klotz. ;D Noobs: Do not expect to get into a serious discussion will bill67 or the slightest bit flustered about any of his comments. He will anger and annoy you until you figure out his dry-sarcastic sense of humor, then he's all right. Took me about a year to start enjoying ol' Bill. ;) [/quote] Ol' Bill would be enjoyable if he ever contributed anything meaningful or helpful. I can fully enjoy someone commenting with integrity on the other side of an issue, but when some dimbulb, in effect, says nothing more than, "you are stupid so anything you say is wrong," it's hard to consider anything he says as worthy of comment. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Gyrobob on 09/02/12 at 11:13:37 54777F7D7E77777E691B0 wrote:
Perfect! I missed that. So,... to a gallon of T6 I'll add a 1/4 cup (2 oz) of the Redline, which'll bring it up to a little over 1500. I'll use that as a procedure from now on, and stay tuned to this forum to make sure I am aware of any new info. Thanks large for the info. BTW, I wonder if I should add some to that jug of T5 my buddy bought yesterday (and used a quart of before driving off on his CS-1). (and you can try explaining to Bill that T-6 is a motorcycle oil) Fat chance. I'd have as much chance of getting him to understand THAT reality as Columbus did explaining to the Pope that the world was round. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by ralfyguy on 09/02/12 at 13:50:15 Bill's world is still flat.... ::) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by bill67 on 09/02/12 at 14:15:31 When I read all of the problems people are having on here maybe the world is flat,On here anyway. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Charon on 09/02/12 at 15:01:40 The thing to remember is that on this forum, and others of its ilk, only those people with problems seem to post. Those with no problems (probably the vast majority of owners) never post. This forum has a membership of less than 4000. No one seems to know how many LS650s were made, but even guessing only 2000 per year for 25 years comes to 50,000 bikes. Makes us a sort of small minority, huh? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Gyrobob on 09/04/12 at 20:34:44 I was in an O'Reilly's last night. They had no Redline additive. I showed the kid a pic of the Redline stuff shown in an earlier post. He tried to find it in his computer and he said he couldn't even order it. They did have Lucas, Rislone, and Hyperlube,.. all of which claim to contain zddp. I guess I'll do Amazon. |
|
Title: Re: Things every savage newb should know... Post by mpescatori on 09/05/12 at 03:16:04 What kind of oil booster should I add if I can't source your domestic additive? All I can find here are STP and similar...domestic names. |
|
Title: Re: Things every savage newb should know... Post by Oldfeller on 09/05/12 at 11:10:30 STP, Rislone, Lucas, and most of the over the counter car type boosters have either moly or "plasticisers" or "polymer esters" which in layman's terms are energy star slippery stuff or thick extra viscosity gook that kills your wet clutch plates. Cars do not have wet clutches, so car stuff can put these extra slippery gooks in without causing any damage to their dry plate clutches. Europe has this same wet clutch older bike situation the same as the USA, surely your motorcycle world has identified a simple ZDDP booster that only has ZDDP in it? What are you going to do in Europe? Either investigate until you find an exact equivalent to Redline or ZDDPlus or else you will have to Amazon them from your local Amazon warehouse and pay whatever they want for the shipping charges. |
|
Title: Re: Things every savage newb should know... Post by mpescatori on 09/06/12 at 01:45:48 6D4E4644474E4E4750220 wrote:
Thanks OLdfeller, but you can't ship flammables through the mail, not in the US, not out of them... never within the EU, anyway ;) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/19/12 at 19:07:10 Hi,I am running a 10w-40 API SG/JASO MA based Semi Synthetic oil and noticed sometimes in top the clutch is slipping. The clutch doesnt slip in the lower gears. I was reading one of your posts where you talked about ZDDP levels, and not to use oils that are JASO MA2 and JASO MB based oils. Do I need to use a additive? And if so how much do I need? Regards Paul |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 11/20/12 at 05:33:03 Paul, state specifically which oil you are using, brand name and all the rest of it. Don't be coy, nobody can help you if you withhold vital information. ===================== The list has recommended oils, you know, that are known to work well. I understand in New Zealand you might not be able to buy these same oils. I also understand your oil rating system is different from the USA SAE based rating system. None of our recommended oils are semi-synthetic though. You find this information here: Recommended oils listing: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344471565 Booster blend table: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1345080430 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/20/12 at 10:31:06 Hi, I have been looking for information about the oil I am using. I Googled it and found this. Product Description Semi-Synthetic 4-Stroke Motor Oil 10W40 Features & Benefits: º Semi-Synthetic lubricant, º Meets JASO MA standards, º Enhanced engine protection and improve gears life time (Easy gear shifting), º Ideal for oil immersed clutches, º Compatible with catalytic converters, º Good detergency and dispersion, º Good anti-oxidizing, º Good anti-corrosion and anti-foam properties. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/20/12 at 10:35:03 Just in case your wondering Our one and only bike shop is a Yamaha Dealer. I also found this number in small print. '1502(L)' This wouldnt be the PPM number would it? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by J C Stokes on 11/20/12 at 10:50:39 Paul, I broughtr some Penrite HPR 10 synthetic at super cheap for my Camry. It's 10/50 rated, full synthetic with Extra Ten Zinc, full zinc additive technology. I'm not sure what this means, but Penrite is 0800 533698 or www.penriteoil.com |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by J C Stokes on 11/20/12 at 11:00:15 I'm fairly sure Shell Rotella is avadable in NZ. Probably at Repco. Didn't see it at Supa Cheap. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/20/12 at 11:13:39 I just tried searching the Repco site and no matches for Shell Rotella. But have been looking at the Penrite oil site and found a possible candidate. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/20/12 at 11:15:57 MC-4ST (4 STROKE) 10W-50 Semi Syn. SAE 10W-50 Semi synthetic, high performance grade for use where SAE 10W-40 oils are specified. May also be used in diesel powered agri-bikes. Uses a special combination of synthetic and mineral base oils and additives to prevent clutch slip. HPR Gas features the Penrite Extra Ten in the oils SAE rating. The Extra 10 helps protect your engine by increasing the oils viscosity at operating temperature providing better protection and reducing engine wear in all driving conditions. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/20/12 at 12:07:36 Their is one more thing that is written on the Yamalube container which I dont know If its important. Contains Calcium Sulfonate. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by J C Stokes on 11/20/12 at 13:18:40 Paul, Rotella may not be all that easy to get here. Shell obviously sold some of it's lube oil busness to Orica Chemicals 0800 673 375 when Z Energy brought the Shell brand. Rotella is sold through Blackwood Paykel engineering shops and possibbly other outlets. You may have to try Palmy or Wellington if you are interested. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 11/20/12 at 16:41:18 http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2008/05/02/Gumby_narrowweb__300x483,0.jpg This is a gumby head ... Read the following thread for a VOA on Yamalube 10W40 and a concise definition of the term gumby head in reference to that same oil. (note: this goes back to 2008 so the oil got one generation worse about six months ago, so it is somewhere between 800ppm and 1000ppm of ZDDP now. (gumbyhead minus) http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1242718 http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q59/ncogburn/Yamalube_D44049.jpg ========================= Penrite 10 plus oils seem to be fairly good Australian oils according to the Bobistheoilguy crew from Australia. They have enough ZDDP in them to meet the minimum Savage ZDDP criteria "as is". http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2556183 Penrite has several different levels of oils, though, so I'd get cuddly with their web pages to make sure you are getting the correct "good stuff". I'm serious, the Penrite boys only list 30 different MOTORCYCLE oils .... lots of room for a goof. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/20/12 at 17:14:57 Thank You very much, I am not going to travel another mile with this oil in my bike. Time to do some searching for some appropriate oil. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by J C Stokes on 11/20/12 at 19:30:38 Paul the Orica lady told me another source of Rotella was Mini fuels. I think these are people who do onsite diesel refuels |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/20/12 at 19:39:08 OK Thanks I will look into it. I located that oil at Super Cheap, Its designed for cars I think. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by J C Stokes on 11/20/12 at 19:46:47 If you got Rotella at Super Cheap, it was probably the last of their stock. I would get as much info off the label and post it, so the Oldfella's will be sure it's the right Rotella, there are a number of versions. Both Blackwood Paykel and Mini Tankers, not Mini Fuels have outlets in Palmy but they won't sell under 20 litres. Mini Tankers is a Rotella DD40 I haven't heard of this one. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/20/12 at 19:51:06 No sorry not Rotella that Aussie Penrite HPR 10 synthetic you used in your car. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/20/12 at 19:55:52 For now, I would go wit a Suzuki oil, price bedarned, & Id be ready to dump a fresh load after a few hundred miles, |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/20/12 at 20:00:45 Can you recommend one? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/20/12 at 20:03:31 I have the additive now so with a good Suzuki oil I can use the additive and then source something better. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/20/12 at 20:08:12 Id run Suzuki oil, no additives, till I solved the clutch issue. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Roberto1444 on 11/20/12 at 20:31:41 My first Rubber Side Down post. Please be patient cause I think I will add some complexity to the already tricky problem of appropriately lubing this bike. There's no Rotella in this country. ZDDP additives are very hard to find here - in fact at this time there's one guy selling his last bottle of Comp Cams on our local ebay, and that's all. I didn't buy it yet because I fear it would be impossible to know the ZDDP content of the API SF/JASO MA oils available, namely Castrol Actevo GP 4T, MOBIL SUPER MOTO 4T 20W50 and maybe a few others. I'm trying to get that from Castrol, but they don't seem cooperative. Mobil doesn't even have a contact page on their web site. I'm using straight Mobil for now. Now there's this product, made in the USA, that is being advertised here as the top, unrivaled lubrication additive. it's called militec and I wonder if you know of its use in motorcycles. I have this reference, which seems respectable: http://militec-1singapore.com/pdf/Anti-Wear%20Results/12_honda.pdf Militec's representatives here throw some of their marvel into a car's sump, shake it for a while, dump all the oil from the engine and go for a 30 mile drive. A video from the experience is available on Youtube, but there are others still more impressive, such as this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlXHwEinv6s It's in Portuguese, sorry, but then it's almost self explanatory. They perform a dry wear test, then oil is added and after that militec. Perhaps there are similar videos in English. Wow. Any facts and opinions about my problem, and this product (which some of you may know as a famous gun lubricant) will be very welcome. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/20/12 at 20:52:44 Resto Supplies is a agent for a American company called Eastwood who supply a ZDDP booster that can be purchased on Trademe. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 11/20/12 at 21:02:04 Roberto, I have a bottle of Miltec in my gun lube & clean drawer. I am familiar with it, it contains teflons and other clutch destroying compounds. Do NOT USE IT in your wet clutch motorcycle. Given that the oils in your country seem to be aimed at CARS almost exclusively, I cannot believe you can't find Rimula or another simple inexpensive diesel HDEO oil that you can find some good data on it. This is a task for you guys, you have to live in your own local marketplace and you have to locate your own local products. You can bump Suzuki oil with a ZDDP booster for long term use, you will just have to realize you are starting low and will need to add more than if you started with Rotella. But I agree with Justin, you need to fix your clutch before you start jerking around with oil -- your clutch is ill right now and needs fixing. ===================== Next, none of you seem to understand how to adjust your clutch, starting out with the position of the silver actuator bar down on the side case and how it points at the marked zone on the split gearcase half. Read up here: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1348364195/0 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 11/20/12 at 21:41:24 Where is the VOA on the 10w40 you think you like? Real Data, not sales claims .... Virgin Oil Analysis = VOA |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/20/12 at 22:09:24 I found what I was looking for. PENRITE OIL FOR MOTORCYCLES MC-4ST A 4 L pack of quality high performance semi synthetic 4 stroke motorcyle engine oil with full zinc content to protect camshaft lobes, rockers and lifters. Non-friction modified to prevent clutch slip. Suit any 4 stroke motorcycle where the manafactuter specifies 10W-40 or 15W-40. Ideal for modern japanese and european dirt bikes and road bikes. I have been using and selling penrite oil since 1988, this grade and it's previous equivalent has always been most popular. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by J C Stokes on 11/20/12 at 22:27:15 Where did you buy it Paul, Super Cheap or Repco? How much was it? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/20/12 at 22:42:12 Its on Trademe for $50. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/20/12 at 22:43:44 This is the auction number, {535334801) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Roberto1444 on 11/21/12 at 07:50:59 Thanks a lot Oldfeller, for your opinion. I've seen many motorcycle forums discussing the use of militec. Some of the guys have a no no opinion like yours, some others report excellent experiences and no one talks about clutch slippage. The pdf I linked to my other post says: "Effects on clutch slippage - Four motorcycles in addition to the GL 1500 were used for this test. These were as follows: 1988 BMW R100 RS 1990 Harley Davidson 883 SportsterZ 1988 Suzuki Intruder 750 1987 Kawasaki Concour The last three motorcycles all have wet sumps. All used a ratio of 2 ounces of Militec-1 per quart of oil. The GL1500 was also tested at 4 ounces per quart of oil. Results: There was no sign of any slippage nor of any abnormal clutch effects in all of the motorcycles tested." Now this is what the manufacturer says about the Teflon content of militec: "MILITEC-1 does not contain any solids, Teflon PTFE, solvents, metals, viscosity enhancers, chlorinated paraffin's or other harmful ingredients. MILITEC-l is non-hazardous, non toxic, non-combustible, and is approved environmentally for U.S. Navy submarine use". Obviouly I wouldn't ask questions about my local marketplace here, but it seems that many US bikers are using this booster with very good results, so I'm talking generically, in the presumption that it can replace ZDDP boosters. We have a bunch of motorcycle oils here, those I listed are API SF/JASO MA. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 11/21/12 at 10:55:11 Roberto/PaulMarshal (don't want to leave any part of you out), you are the one who drew the parallel between Miltec gun products, and having pulled out my bottle of Miltec and set it next to my keyboard I can cleanly say the Miltec gun products contain a lot of solids. There is a solid residue in the bottom of the bottle and a clear oil carrier. Shaking it, the finely divided solids go into suspension, but there is still a clump of stuff at the bottom of the bottle. So, No Recommendation for Miltec products based upon your earlier words. How in the heck you make the leap from a gun slide & barrel lubricant and cleaner to a wet clutch motorcycle lubricant I have NO freekin' idea, but it sounds pretty dubious to me. Next, to be honest you and your posting buddy Paul Marshal are beginning to sound like you are in commercial business (Paul is honest there at least) and as such you are not going to be shilling your products in Rubber Side Down. You may post ONE (1) advertising thread in Marketplace, beyond that I will begin deleting any new posts about your commercial products in RSD. Now, Roberto1444 and PaulMarshal -- you have been asked politely in an oil thread to POST VOA DATA on your proposed oil. Personally, I don't care all that much about what the marketing chat is on any oil -- sources that do not post VOA data from a reputable lab kinda fall into the Klotz catagory (which was "it's top secret, we won't ever say what is in our oil"). Bobistheoilguy is an excellent source for VOA data for those manufacturers who won't post what is in their oil. Lastly, your clutch. I pity your clutch. Your clutch deserves my pity as Lord knows what you have been putting in your sump. Miltec ....... ::) https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=miltec+motor+oil&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/21/12 at 11:04:03 Oldfeller you certainly sound old ;D. I will remove my earlier post myself mate. I was so ecstatic that I managed to find suitable oils in this country, and wanted your opinion. no I am not a commercial seller and I will continue to post questions when I dont have the answers. And I may no ask the appropriate questions in the appropriate way this is due to my lack of knowledge, which im endeavouring to improve by asking questions. I apologise AGAIN but if the question isnt being asked to your satisfaction could you kindly ignore it. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/21/12 at 11:07:06 There we go Oldfeller I left the only oil post I plan to use. I know my posts have helped one fellow New Zealander but sorry it doesnt suit you. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/21/12 at 11:09:50 I have drained the old oil and added the new, No more clutch slip . 8-) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 11/21/12 at 11:24:52 Roberto, did you read your own PDF? The Miltec was the exact same stuff that is sitting by my keyboard, the guy used an ounce of it in a sump of normal oil to juice up a Goldwing (dry clutch, separate engine sump). Yes, I am old -- and not up for exploring into strange new worlds where no man has gone before. The intent of this tread was to find some inexpensive oils that fit our particular antique flat tappet wet sump motorcycle engine. What we find is that our old bike is in conflict with all current car standards and as of six months ago we are in conflict with the current motorcycle standards as well. Miltec is not a solution. Nor is STP, nor is Lucas oil treatment. Even our ZDDP boosters were carefully vetted to make sure there were no moly compounds or other clutch slippers in them. Our recommendations stand until somebody can show a VOA from an independent lab that tell us exactly what is in your proposed oils and additives. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/21/12 at 11:26:18 Oldfeller I have never mentioned anything about Miltec. I dont know what that stuff is. You have confused me with someone else. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 11/21/12 at 11:42:18 You are right, Paul Marshal that was Roberto that posted about Miltec. And you, Paul Marshal did state in your self-deleted post that you were a new reseller of that Classic oil. You were posting about Classic single weight oils intended for separate sump antique motorcycles. Which doesn't apply all that well to a still in production Japanese wet sump motorcycle that asks for a 10w40 weight oil, not all that well anyway .... SD classification, that's interesting. How much ZDDP does you simple SD classification oil have in it? In America, the SD classification is obsolete now and is not enforced, plus it says "up to 1,500 ppm of ZDDP" and so we have some low end manufacturers correctly claiming compliance with only 800 ppm of ZDDP (they are selling relabelled car oil again). And then we have some manufacturers that deliver the entire 1,500 ppm, but at a premium price that goes beyond the $10 a quart that Redline Motorcycle oil gets through Amazon Prime. So, which is yours PaulMarshal? And I am glad your clutch quit slipping just because you changed your oil. That was a quick oil change, BTW. You bought the stuff on line, got it shipped in and put it in your sump inside of three hours. Jiffy Lube would have been proud to do an oil change that fast. :) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/21/12 at 11:53:22 So the oil PENRITE OIL FOR MOTORCYCLES MC-4ST, which is the post that I have left, Is in fact 10W/40 but with the extra zinc makes it 10W/50? Is this right? I have brought the Eastwood ZDDP booster too. Forgive my ignorance please tell me again where to find the PPM for this product so I can put in the appropriate amount of ZDDP. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 11/21/12 at 12:02:19 But Paul, you didn't buy the Penrite, you bought your own Classic brand, remember? The one with no VOA? And now you are asking nonsense questions about a real oil you didn't buy, that isn't magically already in your sump & not slipping. ;) Look up thread and look at the mix instructions if you need any help mixing your fictitious mixtures. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 11/21/12 at 12:09:02 Boys and girls, this has been fun. Our list trouble troll has provided some quality entertainment for us all .... But my 3:00 PM alarm is going off to tell me it is time for me to get dressed & ready to go to work. (so sad, having to go to work ....) If any of you want to talk to Roberto/PaulMarshal, feel free to do so -- quite frankly I don't really think they have any new oils to show us that are worthwhile for us. Those folks who really are in Australia / New Zealand, check out your Heavy Duty Engine Oil classification CJ and see what sorts of brands you have in a 15w40 HDEO classification. HDEO seem to sit with the diesel oils in the diesel oil section, although they are UNIVERSAL oils which can be used in any engine with applicable weights. Rimula is Shell's Far Eastern brand name, so you may want to search for that. And I apologize for the confusion created in your minds by Roberto/PaulMarshal, Lord knows having nonsense trash pumped at you by both barrels can certainly be confusing. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/21/12 at 12:10:05 Yes I did buy the Penrite. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/21/12 at 12:12:34 I am pleased you modified your question about the Miltec and replaced my name with Robertos. Doesnt make you look so senile. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/21/12 at 12:15:19 Show me where I said that I had brought a particular oil other than the Penrite. And I am not trying to show you anything new, I am wanting your knowledge before I use something in my bike. Once again you are getting confused. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/21/12 at 12:17:06 I went with this oil today because of what you quoted "Penrite 10 plus oils seem to be fairly good Australian oils according to the Bobistheoilguy crew from Australia. They have enough ZDDP in them to meet the minimum Savage ZDDP criteria "as is"." |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/21/12 at 12:20:42 Please elaborate exactly what nonsense I pumped at you/ |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/21/12 at 12:30:52 This is worse than txting, So many things can be taken out of context. Huge confusion here i Think. I have managed to gather enough information from Oldfeller to use the right mix of oil and ZDDP. Thanks Oldfeller, it took awhile but I was able to pick your brain enough to find my answers. So If I understand correctly Penrite 10 plus meets the minimum requirements for ZDDP. Excellent. Great work Oldfeller I got what I need. ;) ;D OF .... glad that this senile old fart could help you get your daily dose of jollies |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Serowbot on 11/21/12 at 14:17:36 For anyone just checking in,.. and not interested in going over 15 pages of posts... just condense this thread down to... ...use, Rotella... :) It's cheap enough,.. it's good enough,.. it's pretty available,... and it's fun to say,... "Rotella"... ;D... |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Gyrobob on 11/21/12 at 14:27:59 584E59445C49445F2B0 wrote:
Ditto |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/21/12 at 18:59:00 Paul,If you cant lay hands on Shell's Rotella 15/40, if its the same stuff in a different jug there, okay, whatever, but if you cant get that stuff, then Get Suzuki oil, screw the cost, to hell with Everything about Engine Longevity & I want the BEST oil, Solve the clutch problem, Then worry about finding the best oil. YOu only have to flush it, maybe twice, then, Off to the races hunting that magic oil, but unless you put in something you ABSOLUTELY KNOW is right for that clutch & add NOTHING, you could swap oil, spend a load of $$ / quart & still be slipping, & wind up tearing it down & cleaning the clutch up disk by disk. Ive made a living solving problems,.,Task Oriented Thinking is essential, Solve The Problem, Then do whatever you want after that., |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/21/12 at 19:01:07 Good advise thanks Justin. :) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by paulmarshall on 11/21/12 at 19:06:20 When you say flush do you mean using a particular flushing product? 66797F7865625363536B79753E0C0 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/21/12 at 19:49:41 No. Nothing special, not yet. Id dump the oil & replace it with an oil you KNOW absolutely will not make the clutch slip & doesnt cost an arm & a Leg. Rotella T 15/40 is my favorite, I believe its good enough to get a service life outta the engine long enough to wear the rest of the bike out. Who needs more? If you cant find Rotella T, or Shells product under another name that IS Rotella T here, then get Suzuki oil, dump it, slap a new filter in it, go ride, dont TRY to make it slip, just ride it a coupla hundred miles, then, if it slips any, dump it again, If theres No IMprovement, then youre most likely gonna have to open it up. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Roberto1444 on 11/21/12 at 21:57:44 Old bikers - notice how they ride if you want to live long. Dear Oldfeller, I'm quite old too and retired from my past professional activities, which didn't include selling anything to anybody. So it was not fair at all to mistake me for a contemptible snake oil shill. Old age... well, ok, there's a bunch of kids here calling me grandpa but I'm fine, except for a back pain that I suspect the Savage should be blamed for. But I gladly forgive her, she mistreats this oldie a bit but gives him so much pleasure... And my liver is ok too, people don't complain of my bad temper. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Digger on 12/04/12 at 20:56:32 092A2220232A2A2334460 wrote:
For the record, all Gold Wings (from the first ones in 1975) have had wet clutches. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming...... |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by houstonbofh on 01/01/13 at 13:10:52 On links for the redline ZDDP, both Summit and Jeggs have it cheaper than Amazon depending on quantity and how you do shipping. http://www.jegs.com/i/Red-Line-Oil/816/81403/10002/-1 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/red-81403 And if you have a local Cycle Gear, they stock RedLine Motorcycle Oil. Good in a pinch, if a little expensive. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 01/01/13 at 16:55:20 Heck, right now Amazon is showing NO STOCK at all .... Amazon comes and goes, comes and goes -- Prime shipping is cheap sometimes (if the stuff is actually in a Amazon warehouse) other times you pay somebody else more to ship it from their place. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Jo or BJ on 03/21/13 at 11:30:30 Ok, dumber than a box of rocks noob here! :-[ I had the oil/filter changed at the dealership, it was Suzuki 10W40, can I just "add" say the Eastwood ZDDP additive to the oil in the motor now?? Thanks. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dave on 03/21/13 at 12:01:01 Well.....You could add some ZDDP. You woulld have to order it, pay for shipping, and wait for it to arrive. Or....You could buy a gallon of Rotella T at Walmart for $ 12.97 and get 2 oil changes out of it. Just pull the drain plug and dump the Suzuki oil out and use it in your lawnmower....then fill it with the Rotella. Just leave the filter in place and don't worry about the little bit of oil that will still be in it. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/22/13 at 00:34:23 Thats good advice |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Charon on 03/22/13 at 06:11:32 43787562737F646279717C63100 wrote:
I wonder what sort of valve actuating mechanism is in the lawn mower. But, at least, it isn't likely to have a wet clutch. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Liffey3 on 04/11/13 at 10:14:53 FYI If you have a Cycle Gear store in your area, they carry RedLine. Price was less that I saw on Amazon. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by apache snow on 04/11/13 at 10:19:12 6472787B63657E170 wrote:
That is correct. There is one around twenty minutes from me. I am always thinking I should go down there and get some. So far I haven't. |
|
Title: Recommended oil booster for Rotella T6 synthetic? Post by DavidOfMA on 04/11/13 at 11:40:00 I ride in the winter, when it may be as cold as 30F, for relatively short rides of an hour or so. And I take long trips in the summer, when it may be 95F and humid, and I'm going 70-75mph for 300 miles. I bought a gallon of Rotella T6 and a bottle of the Redline booster. For this kind if riding, how much booster would I add per gallon of Rotella T6 to optimally protect the bike? After poring through this thread, still not clear to me what's best for relatively hard riding. Thanks! |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by apache snow on 04/11/13 at 12:06:52 http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&pcid=1 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by DavidOfMA on 04/11/13 at 14:21:26 Thanks for the pointer to the table, but my question, which maybe I didn't make clear, is: what is the optimum concentration of ZDDP I should be aiming for, given the type of riding I do, for the S40? The Rotella, I gather, has 1200. Do I want 1800? 2000? 2400? Thanks. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by apache snow on 04/11/13 at 14:36:45 The car guys say that 1200 ppm is enough for flat tappets. There are white papers that say this. I personally would not go above 1600 to 1700 ppm and have read that over 2000 starts to cause camshaft spalling in fresh engines because it began to attack the iron and allow the cam to pit under load. Some racing only oils have a lot of ZDDP but they are for race engines that have high lift cams with very high valve spring pressures, A stock LS650 does not have this. Just my opinion |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by DavidOfMA on 04/11/13 at 17:31:04 So, if I want to boost the ZDDP in my Rotella T6 from 1200 to 1500ppm, how many ounces of the Redline booster would I add? I've read through the first few pages of this thread and get more confused the more I read. Thanks in advance to anyone who can answer this in simple terms (like add 2 oz to a gallon, or something equally simple). |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 04/11/13 at 17:41:08 71777A7A7E777C7B717067150 wrote:
roughly 1/4 of an ounce (7.5ml) to 1 gallon of T6 will raise it by 320 ppm on the zinc side which is the part your wanting to boost. R.F. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by DavidOfMA on 04/11/13 at 18:44:37 Quote:
Okay, now I'm still confused but getting there. I think your math is off, though it helps to know that it's the zinc figure I'm interested in. According to the Redline chart, there's 20,500ppm zinc in 16oz, which is 1281ppm per 1oz. and 320ppm per 1/4oz. So, if I were to add 1oz of Redline to 4 quarts of oil, I'd raise the zinc content of the whole gallon by 1281ppm, which is the same as raising the zinc content of each quart by 320ppm, which is what I want to do. Isn't that right? Sorry to be so dense, but now that I see how this is figured, this is what it looks like to me. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by rfw2003 on 04/11/13 at 19:16:25 6A6C6161656C67606A6B7C0E0 wrote:
Yup your right, I'm tired so I wasn't thinking on the 1200ppm per qt that the T6 already had :-/ So yes it's 1oz per gallon that you want to add. R.F. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by DavidOfMA on 04/11/13 at 19:30:26 Well, at 1/2 oz per oil change, my 16oz of booster will last considerably longer than I'll last unless I do an awful lot of riding! |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 04/12/13 at 06:37:34 Booster blend table: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1345080430 Folks were stumbling through this so much that Boule put together a booster table to make life easy. THIS TABLE IS PREDICATED ON BOOSTING AN ENTIRE GALLON JUG as soon as you open it up. Dealing with the entire gallon made the measurement task much easier as it was done with whole ounce jigger cups for the whole gallon boosted instead of quarter and half ounces per oil change. Note also the table extends way past what you would consider reasonable amounts. Four ounces per gallon is a logical maximum amount to use as beyond that the benefit of "more" gets to be more theoretical instead of proved/practical. But the table allows you to match any known product out there, no matter how excessive. Also note this table applies to Rotella products as a starting point -- Rotella is chosen for being the least costly but still the highest ZDDP starting oil we could find to begin boosting from. It is also the best known, least cost, best performing oil that we know about here on the list. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by DavidOfMA on 04/12/13 at 07:24:02 Thanks for the table, although now I'm more confused. The table says I'd need 1.7oz of Redline to get to 1520, while the calculations above, based on the Redline site, say I'd need 1oz. I downloaded the spreadsheet and tried to follow the logic, but there are constants in there that I don't understand in the formula he uses: =((20500*D18*0.97+1251*119.5)/(119.5+D18*0.97)) Anyone able to shed some light on the logic of this formula? The spreadsheet is an Open Office spreadsheet; need to rename it from ZIP to ODS to read it. Edit: Never mind. I see from the Redline site that adding 16oz of Redline to 4 quarts of oil increases zinc by 2760 ppm. So adding one oz increases it 172.5ppm, not 320, though I'm still not sure why. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by gdrseeker on 04/12/13 at 08:06:53 Now I am confused doesn't this indicate I should add the listed amount to one gallon T6. I recently added 3 oz Redline to One Gallon of T6 in order to get 1700 ppm.........Is that not correct math according to this chart? 3B362C353C2D382B3D590 wrote:
This is the chart I was going by. As far as I can tell from all the discussion and the description of the formula used it looks correct. I am going to continue to put 3oz of redline into my fresh one gallon jugs of Rotella T Oil. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 04/12/13 at 08:35:03 Newbies ALWAYS live in a constant state of confusion until they learn how to look for stuff, how to think logically about it some and then to ask questions whenever they can't figure it out. The one thing newbies do that gets them popped on the hand is to try to tell other newer newbies some strange nonsense based on what they already know they don't fully understand. Older members get popped for letting new newbies cruise off into a disaster without telling them they are cruising for a bruising. (although I fully sympathise that you done told them ignorant suckers x times already and they refuse to even read the tech thread you showed them x times which explains it all pretty clearly) Now, if you read the tech thread and can't make sense of it, then it needs to be clarified or rewritten. Most of our tech threads are pretty clear because they HAVE been rewritten once or twice already. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Seanmnnell on 06/05/13 at 08:42:09 I have a 2007 s40 boulevard and I mostly commute on the bike 60 miles a day at around 50-60 mph and am coming into a hot GA summer. I've put about 3k miles on the bike so far and am about to change out the oil/filter. Do I need to worry about supplementing my oil with this Redline additive and use Rotella T6? I used regular Suzuki 4 stroke oil bought from a dealership for the first change and it's running well, couldn't complain. I haven't done any work on the bike yet but intend on raising the seat and raptor petcock soon. I tried to go through the 18 pages of posts on oil recommendations and just kept feeling more lost. Any straightforward answer about what oil to use is appreciated. P.s. the dealership didn't sell me the replacement gasket for the oil filter when they sold me a new filter. Any ideas on where to get the gasket alone? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by verslagen1 on 06/05/13 at 09:07:04 5D6B6F606360606B62620E0 wrote:
The seal on the oil filter cover is an o-ring, and there's also one between the filter and case. I have ideas you don't need to replace them unless of course they are missing or damaged. They are available on-line if your local stealership can't figure out which one they are. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dave on 06/05/13 at 09:19:13 For me.....I have converted to the Rotella T reasoning. You can run it right out of the jug and probablby be just fine. At least you will be better off than buying something you aren't sure of. I have also joined the worriers and I add 1 oz of Redline ZDDP per gallon of oil to bring the level up to around 1,400 ppm. I'll let you know in about 10 years of extensive testing how it ends up working. (I hope) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Seanmnnell on 06/05/13 at 10:21:46 Thanks to you both |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Seanmnnell on 06/05/13 at 10:29:14 I'm gonna go ahead and try 1.5 ounces of Redline to get it up to around 1500 ppm since i'm in 90+ degree environment going 50+ mph most of the time and will start on the low side with the additive since it seems to get close to causing trouble when you get over 1800 ppm. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by TiMec on 06/14/13 at 12:36:06 During some research on the web, I found some useful information on this topic. If you look for oil that are rated "API SG", the levels of ZDDP are around 1200ppm, as we all want for our Savages. Most brands will say that this oil is for old engines. If you look at most oil you'll find that that they are rated API SJ or SM, this means that the oil is prepared for new style engines. Hope this helps, specially because if you don't live in the US, it's not easy to find some brands of oils posted in this topic. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Roberto1444 on 06/16/13 at 14:32:47 Quote:
Cheers, TiMec Oils for Savages not in the US deserve a special thread, I'd say. Some of the guys here don't appreciate when we try to discuss alternatives to the canonical Rotella + ZDDP booster they try so hard to establish as THE standard - in this RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS thread. The oil I am using in my bike is a Mobil 20W-50 jaso MA and api SG. I didn't have this information about the ZDDP content in SG oils being around 1200ppm, so I welcome your post. Would you mind sharing the source of this info w/ us? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by TiMec on 06/16/13 at 16:09:31 Hi Roberto1444, Well probably you're right about the thread on non US bikes ;), I'll leave that to the admin to decide. Well in your weather a 20W50 oil would do great, I'm using a 10W40 from Ipone called Ipone 10.4 with Jaso MA, API SG. It does get cold around here and usually I ride all year long, so cold starts are quite often. Back to what you asked, I first found a wikipedia article on that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil), if you read through it you'll find a section on API rating, you'll find a example of SG oil. But I do also know that Wikipedia is not a source of 100% accurate information, so I went on searching and found a couple more things on the topic, but what really made up my mind was a pdf file I found from Zplus (http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief14%20-%20ZDDP%20and%20Pre-WWII%20Engines.pdf), wish is on of those ZDDP additives, that has a table with the exact information I was looking for, it's sort of a history of ZDDP and somewhat commercial, but I was happy with the finding. I found it much easier to find API SG rated oils that having to worry about ZDDP additives... Hope this bit of info helps. PS- here's a MOBIL table containing ZDDP levels is some of their oil http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Roberto1444 on 06/18/13 at 07:45:44 Hi TiMec Well, oil companies are not very transparent when it comes to their products' formulae, as if such information couldn't be critical for consumers, as if motor oil is some sort of coca-cola. I've tried to extract info on the ZDDP content of their motorcycle oil from Mobil and a couple of other brands here, to no avail. The info you've linked from Mobil doesn't show Super Moto 4T, my Savage's motor oil. And man, do you really find it safe to infer from that table on ZDDPLUS website which says that SG oils will not exceed 1200ppm of phosphorus that such oils actually have that proportion of P in their formulae - considering it doesn't say what the minimum must be? I'm sorry but what that table says to me is that as long as the motor oil's P proportion doesn't exceed 1200ppm it may be rated as API SG, even if no trace of P is to be found. But I'll be glad if you show I'm wrong, because... diabos, I don't know how much ZDDP my Mobil has, so it's risky to mix some additive! |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Roberto1444 on 06/18/13 at 18:16:28 Oops, forgot to thank you, TiMec, for your kind response. Cheers, _ R |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by TG on 06/25/13 at 17:47:48 I have searched before I am posting this question about oil.....I promise. I already purchased some oil before reading about Rotella. I just want to see if what I have is bad enough to return since I haven't opened it yet. I also researched online adn couldn't find significant enough info about this product. I paid $3.98 per quart at Walmart. Here is the link to see exactly what I bought: http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/motorcycle-atv-oil/13 Zinc/Phosphorus, wt.% 0.112/0.103 0.112/0.103 Should I return this product or use it until I am out? I am picking up some redline today. Should I mix a little of that in? And how much? Thanks for any help! |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by TG on 06/25/13 at 19:39:33 Just ordered redline oil additive on amazon for $16.95 with free 2 day shipping! Thanks for the timely info once again! |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by TiMec on 06/27/13 at 08:50:18 576A676077716A34313131050 wrote:
Sorry for the taking so long to get back to you, but i've been quite busy and haven't had the time to come to the forum. I'll find you some more info on the subject and get back to you, I promise to add some facts from reliable sources, just give some time. TiMec |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by TiMec on 06/27/13 at 10:30:51 3D3B2C3F263B2E263B3D2627490 wrote:
Acording to what you posted the oil you bought contains a max of 1120ppm and a min of 1030ppm of ZDDP. Zinc/Phosphorus, wt.% 0.112/0.103 0.112/0.103 In my opinion, I don't think you need to add any ZDDP booster. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by TG on 06/28/13 at 06:24:08 Thanks TiMec for helping make sense of all this info! I am glad that my choice in oil wasn't that bad. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 06/29/13 at 05:58:45 Oh my goodness, yet another case of green newbies helping other newbies by sharing their "opinions" on a topic that actually references the source material that could be read by both parties. And of both of them being wrong. (or you could actually go to the Tech Section and read the actual main post) 1100 ppm ZDDP isn't enough. Most here bump the 1250 ppm Rotella products up towards 1350 to 1800 ppm zone to make sure they get maximum tappet and cam lobe life. Most us the recommended boosters and the booster table to do it. That is what it is there for. But this is America, it's your bike -- feed it what you want to. If you use it long term, just don't cry when your tappy tappy tappy starts .... ============== Now, what part of (taken directly from "Things every Savage newb should know" which is at the top of Rubber Side Down) don't you guys understand? ZDDP amounts in your oil is important to our Savage engine (most modern bike oils do not have enough). We have to bump our oils with ZDDP booster to get up to the right amounts. Recommended oils listing: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344471565 Booster blend table: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1345080430 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by TG on 06/29/13 at 17:53:25 Thanks Oldfeller! It was after reading all the charts, every post (and even the crazy argument with Bill), and not finding the oil I had already purchased on any list in this forum that I asked my question about my particular oil that I want to salvage until I can get some rotella. I also, in a previous post, mentioned that I bought redline to add to my oil. TiMec just helped me make sense of all the abbreviations and puctuations and decimal points. I now know that I can follow the chart that Boule'tard posted (which is saved in my favorites for quick reference) and even add a little more per gallon. I was glad to know that I didn't make a terrible choice with no ZDDP or something - I am notorious for searching for a very long time, debating, hemming and hawing, and then purchasing, just to find out that I bought the wrong thing (case in point: petcock :-[). For once, I didn't make an unsalvagable choice :) I actually appreciate your frustration. It shows how passionate you are about these awesome bikes. I find it funny how many different spots you can find q&a's about jetting. I think Lancer has alone answered that question about a thousand times, and sometimes in the same thread :) I want to do the best for my bike and I am not going to assume I am doing the best until I have consulted the forum. And that is why I appreciate your input and value it. Don't give up on us NOOBS. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Grayowl on 07/18/13 at 09:15:42 Has anyone had any experience with the following product in Suzuki LS 650 ? It is a zinc additive that I can purchase locally and comes highly recommended by the folks running older high performance (flat tappet) engines in cars, but they are not running any motor cycles in that group. I have not tried it yet, as I am a little concerned about the wet clutch applications in our bikes. Web Page for the product : http://www.hyperlube.com/Zinc-Replacement-Additive-c7.html |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by oldNslow on 07/18/13 at 10:37:27 6D584B53455D46181A1B1B2A0 wrote:
I emailed the mfr. and asked. They got back to me in less than an hour. Here's the answer: Quote:
I specifically asked about unit construction motorcyle engines with wet clutches. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Grayowl on 07/18/13 at 11:29:00 I had sent them an email before posting the one I did. I still have not heard back from them, but that is kind of what I was afraid of with the wet clutch. You must have caught the right guys at the right time to get the reply that quick. Just got the same basic reply you got on the additive from the sales group. Well know we know for sure. OldNSlow -Thanks for the checking you did I use appreciate it. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by ylwf3vr on 08/14/13 at 08:52:11 Sorry to bring this up again, I just couldn't sift through 19 pages of the section. What I got from first 5 pages I've skimmed through, recommended oils are Dino -- Rotella T Triple Protection 15W40 Synthetic -- Rotella T-6 5W40 Redline 10W40 Motorcycle Oil (on Amazon?) There are also ALOT of technical discussion on ZDDP and ppm (which I have NO idea how to comprehend lol :P) So I guess to this newb - what should I use (as simple as possible). Any of those 3 oil listings NOT require mixutre of additive? If not that's fine I found the post about mixture ratio. Thanks! |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/14/13 at 09:05:57 The Redline requires no booster -- it has more than ample enough as is. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by ylwf3vr on 08/14/13 at 09:14:01 5E7D7577747D7D7463110 wrote:
Great - short and sweet answer thank you. And I've read the specs are about 2 Qts? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by ylwf3vr on 08/14/13 at 18:31:58 1E3D3537343D3D3423510 wrote:
So the shop I have my bike at only has 15W40 Silkolene, 10W40 Castrol, 10W40 Royal Purple Amsoil. Should I trust any of these or just change it myself? I told him to just do it since it was in there but after reading some posts and ordering the Redline from Amazon, I might just do it. Thoughts? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Stealthmobile on 08/14/13 at 20:05:44 I had bought the same stuff as Grayowl and was going to mix it into 5 liters of oil when I read this. Was wondering about it and now can return to the local Canadian Tire. Thanks :D |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Toroso on 08/15/13 at 18:11:44 How exactly does clutch slip manifest itself? I'm thinking one thing but I could be wrong. :) 5B6E7D65736B702E2C2D2D1C0 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by 87 savage on 08/16/13 at 04:53:17 142F322F332F400 wrote:
Before I switched from mobil1 (for cars) to Rotella, mine would slip in high gear especially when it was cold. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Toroso on 08/16/13 at 05:59:23 5D505E594E480D0B05043C0 wrote:
Before I switched from mobil1 (for cars) to Rotella, mine would slip in high gear especially when it was cold.[/quote] So when you say 'slip', do you mean that it would behave as if the clutch were being applied? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by 87 savage on 08/16/13 at 06:38:16 Quote:
Yea. In the lower gears It was fully engaged, but in high gear it would slip, rev higher than it should than catch back up. I could actually feel it slipping. It was not as bad once it warmed up and stopped completely when I switched to Rotella. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Rush-rks on 08/16/13 at 07:13:47 What about suzuki's oil is it good enough? I could't find any specs on it this what I used when I changed the oil when I first got the bike last month..far as I know it seems to work well. http://www.suzukicycles.com/Accessories/suzuki%20oil%20_%20chemicals/990A0-10W40-1QT.aspx?Tab=Care&view=&category=suzuki%20oil%20_%20chemicals |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Toroso on 08/16/13 at 08:04:13 I just wanted to clarify what clutch slipping was. I am using the product below and have had no clutch slip as of yet. Web Page for the product : http://www.hyperlube.com/Zinc-Replacement-Additive-c7.html |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by 87 savage on 08/16/13 at 15:16:26 0225233862616162500 wrote:
I'm sure it is a fine oil if Suzuki is putting thier name on it. Not sure if it has enough zddp in it though? The experienced folks on this forum recommend 1200 - 1500 ppm total zddp. There is a good blend table Boule'tard did that will help to get the right amount in the crankcase. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1345080430 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by 87 savage on 08/16/13 at 15:21:25 516A776A766A050 wrote:
Toroso, the zddp additive should not cause slipping, using the wrong oil will. Just need to make sure the oil has at least the Jaso MA rating, which is a rating for oils used with wet clutches like in the savage. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Oldfeller on 08/16/13 at 17:13:32 68656B6C7B7D383E3031090 wrote:
Toroso, the zddp additive should not cause slipping, using the wrong oil will. Just need to make sure the oil has at least the Jaso MA rating, which is a rating for oils used with wet clutches like in the savage. [/quote] Oldfeller responds. The product page clearly says "Hy-Per Lube Zinc Replacement Additive contains an exclusive Polymer Ester formula". This clearly puts the product in the category of oil additives that thicken your oil using long polymer chain compounds to do that -- oil thickeners as a class are NOT recommended by their manufacturers for use in wet clutch engines. Ask these Hyperlube people directly on the wet clutch issue and post us all back what they say back to you. JASO, please remember has changed on us again. The MA rating has changed its meaning twice since it first came out. An MA rating currently can be granted to any oil that tests for MA2 and fails on up to two points of the test but passes all the rest. Being used as a "catch all rating" or partially failed rating to the other newer ratings means that MA has no real meaning to us Savagers much at all much any more. Shame on that, it used to mean something. ============== The real answer is -- read the recommended oil list and use an oil that is on it. If you want to bump your ZDDP use a recommended bump agent that is on the list. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Rush-rks on 08/16/13 at 18:28:05 69646A6D7A7C393F3130080 wrote:
I'm sure it is a fine oil if Suzuki is putting thier name on it. Not sure if it has enough zddp in it though? The experienced folks on this forum recommend 1200 - 1500 ppm total zddp. There is a good blend table Boule'tard did that will help to get the right amount in the crankcase. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1345080430[/quote] That's what I cant seem to find out if it has enough zddp or not? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by verslagen1 on 08/16/13 at 19:56:45 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1346947416/33#33 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by NHLycan on 09/17/13 at 18:04:06 I think I have e everything I need except the $1 aluminum baking pan. Filter, replacement washer seal, T6, Redline. Check check check check. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dave on 09/18/13 at 04:50:40 434541746E6C630D0 wrote:
You also need a refreshing beverage of your choice! ;D |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Rush-rks on 10/02/13 at 08:52:25 Changed mine last night. Old paint pan works good too fits and holds the old oil nicely. Used Rotella in the white jug and 2 oz of redline in the jug. So far bike seems to like it ;) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Serowbot on 10/02/13 at 09:40:56 If you cover the exhaust pipe with a piece of tinfoil,.. it will keep oil off the pipe and make clean-up easier after a filter change... ;)... |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Rush-rks on 10/02/13 at 10:17:24 2533243921343922560 wrote:
Now I'll know next time ! ;D Good idear.. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by farva66 on 03/29/14 at 18:38:32 I have been reading for like half and hour now and I can't seem to find a solid answer.... I know it will be out of price point, I don't mind spending a little more to not need additives. Is the red line 10w40 motorcycle oil a good to go oil no additive needed? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by pgambr on 03/29/14 at 19:25:36 Take a look at this. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344471565 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by farva66 on 03/29/14 at 19:46:01 697E78747B6B190 wrote:
thanks i saw that just wanted to double check thanks again |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by shorty on 03/30/14 at 06:43:58 diesels are primitive engines and Rotella seems fine without adding additives, too much zinc is bad too.. anybody else using white jug (petro) Rotella straight-up?? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by doh13 on 05/20/14 at 20:42:14 Hi i have been reading about the ZDDp additives for the last hour I had bought motormaster motorcycle oil for the savage before reading about the ZDDP additive which i believe is made by shell but im not sure if it has ZDDP http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/motomaster-formula-1-4-stroke-motorcycle-oil-20w50-0281836p.html#.U3waWyjzdwF (MSDS sheet for the motormaster oil) http://msds.canadiantire.ca/OpenRepositoryFile.asp?s=89304&v=7, I did ask the question on the CT website about ZDDP but who knows when they will answer or if they will have a clue. I also seen that Rotella T Triple Protection was recommended and i believe my local walmart has it. Would this be the type that I need? http://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/rotella-t-triple-protection-5l/6000016946267?gclid=CLeTgbaIvL4CFetlOgodTFIADA If so i will run out and pick some up. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by verslagen1 on 05/20/14 at 21:01:13 haven't found that they asked the right question yet. they did say it's... MotoMaster Formula 1 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil meets API SH/SG and JASO MA. this should mean it has it rotella T is the stuff we like. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by doh13 on 05/20/14 at 21:26:54 415245445B5650525906370 wrote:
you can see the question about ZDDp that i asked about the motomaster motorcycle oil listed on the ct site now http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/motomaster-formula-1-4-stroke-motorcycle-oil-20w50-0281836p.html#.U3wojyiGrIW not sure ill get a proper answer though. If not ill be safe putting the rotella t in when i change the oil . |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by doh13 on 05/23/14 at 07:20:54 I am not sure If Amsoil has been mentioned for recommended oil but I asked Amsoil about some of their oils and they told me about this one. http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/gasoline/sae-10w-40-synthetic-premium-protection-motor-oil/?page=%2Fstorefront%2Famo.aspx API SL, SJ, SH, SG API CI-4 Plus, CH-4, CF, CF-2 ISO-L-EMA Caterpillar ECF-1 JASO MA (Motorcycle) MAN 271/3275 MTU Type 2 Cummins 20071/20072/20076/20077 VDS-2, VDS Mack EO-M+ ACEA A3/B3, E3, E5 MB 228.3, 229.1 Detroit Diesel 93K214 Answer From Amsoil Rep: The 10w-40 premium protection motor oil (AMO) is high in ZDDP you are looking at Zinc levels of 1378 PPM and Phos. levels of 1265 PPM. This is a great oil for the older style flat tappet cams. Also: Amsoil 10W-40 Advanced Synthetic Motorcycle Oil Has 1436 PPM of Zinc and 1321 PPM of Phos. Another good oil for a flat tappet system. http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/motorcycle/10w-40-advanced-synthetic-motorcycle-oil/?code=MCFQT-EA |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dave on 05/23/14 at 07:30:26 414A4D1416250 wrote:
I suppose that the Amsoil willl do just fine. But why do you want to pay $ 11 a quart for oil that you have to order online.....or try and find a local dealer that will stock that? Can't you get Rotella in Canada? Shell Rotella T that is about $ 12 a gallon, is available just about anywhere in the US, and provides all the lubrication and protection that is needed. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by doh13 on 05/23/14 at 07:47:02 Quote:
Oh yea I can get Rotella t at walmart in canada at a good price I was just throwing out another type of oil that should have A1 protection in the savage and its less than 12 bucks per quart (for the rules) which isnt cheap by any means but I have ordered amsoil online before and its much cheaper than buying it at the store (Canadian tire wants $20.99 a quart for amsoil motorcycle oil Last time i looked!). I remember paying $16 per quart for Mobil 1 syn a few years back at walmart) stuff isn't cheap in Canada ! :'( BTW i think i will be using the motor master Motorcycle oil from canadian tire that i had already bought on sale for 5 something a quart since it suppose to meet the specs (not sure of the ZDDP because they haven't answered the question yet) then i will likely switch to the rotella t. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by doh13 on 05/27/14 at 18:57:55 I just found out that the MotoMaster Formula 1 Motorcycle Oil from Canadian tire that I bought on sale has ZDDP . "The product typically contains about 1150 ppm zinc" so that's a little on the low side if 1200 ppm is the min but probably still useable without ZDDP booster added? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by zipidachimp on 05/28/14 at 20:56:28 Bought 2 litres of ROT-T 15w40 today at wally. Noticed on same shelf VALVOLINE VR-1 specifically mentions ZDDP. Worth a shot? :-? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by ls650v on 05/29/14 at 01:58:43 I believe that VR-1 has molly. Not good for a wet clutch. Stick with oil that is JASO MA rated. From the Valvoline website: VR-1 has "Additional friction modfiers to help deliver maximum horsepower". Yep, don't want to use this in your bike. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by DesertRat on 09/28/15 at 15:41:04 So, is ZDDP Booster REQUIRED when purchasing Rotella T Triple Protection 15W40? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/28/15 at 15:47:08 I ran the Rotella 15/40, Dino, just plain oil,, it's good stuff. But, a little zddp added can't hurt hoot, cost and hassle are minimal. If i planned on making the 100,000 mile club, I probably would. And I'd probably be looking for a way to get a throw out machined out of billet. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Kris01 on 09/28/15 at 18:45:23 ZDDP is a metal. It's sacrificial in your engine. It sounds wrong but it lubricates your bearings and gets destroyed instead of your bearings being destroyed. I use Rotella T 15W-40 with 2 ozs. of Redline booster. That's the proper ratio. Any less and you're not really helping anything. Any more and the zinc will actually erode the bearing surfaces. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/28/15 at 18:48:26 What a conundrum! More isn't better And Less isn't more. Something ya just gotta do right.. Phhht, 15-40, neat, barkeep. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by DesertRat on 09/28/15 at 18:49:51 756A6C6B7671407040786A662D1F0 wrote:
so rotella t triple 15w40 without the extra zddp??? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Kris01 on 09/28/15 at 18:52:25 It has zinc already, but not enough. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/28/15 at 19:30:30 DR, my opinion is just an opinion. The 100,000 mile club have experience. I got 20,000 miles on mine, and the first five weren't too crazy, after I did tires, and all the mods, I rode the snot outta that thing. Oil use remained predictable, New oil, low use, as miles added up, oil use increased, change oil, use slows back down, I couldn't see any sign of wear, the rockers and cam looked fine, I would run it. Have fun, pay attention to the oil, check it, it can sneak up on ya. Gotta suck to check oil and see it low. It's popular with big rig drivers. If it's good enough to keep those vicious, brutal engines alive, gotta be good. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by DesertRat on 09/28/15 at 19:33:32 Im just gonna run it "neat" until the next oil change and take a peek under the skirt ;) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/15 at 20:02:01 I run it neat except for the beast which has a new cam in it... need to boost it for a couple of changes. Don't run extended mileage and the zddp that comes in rotella is just fine. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dave on 09/29/15 at 04:46:05 112833296A6B5A0 wrote:
I believe you are mixing twice as much as you should. The Rotella T has 1250 ppm of ZDDP in it when poured right from the bottle. I also believe that anything more than 1,400 ppm of ZDDP is too much. Adding 1 oz. of Redline ZDDP Booster per "gallon" of oil will result in 1,406 ppm of Zinc....which is at the safe maximum. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1345080430 Quote from the following oil test. "And keep in mind for comparison with the oils below, that earlier oil industry testing has found that above 1,400 ppm, ZDDP INCREASED long term wear, even though break-in wear was reduced. And it was also found that ZDDP above 2,000 ppm, started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling. So, no matter what zinc fans might “believe”, there is such a thing as "too much of a good thing". http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35836 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by pg on 09/29/15 at 06:16:35 What is this sites recommended ceiling for zddp ppm moving forward? Thanks. Best regards, |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dave on 09/29/15 at 06:26:17 544345494656240 wrote:
My vote is 1,200 - 1,400 ppm. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/29/15 at 09:58:38 The Rotella T has 1250 ppm of ZDDP in it when poured right from the bottle. Dave hands out, for free, information about the oil. That stuff just isn't in the oils used in vehicles with cataclysmic perverters, and, that's the most common thing. And diesels use compression to ignite the fuel,, think about the loads on the bearings. And this oil is very popular with diesel mechanics and owners. When I hired a guy to come help me out on the backhoe, he asked about the oil, I said Rotella, his face said more than his mouth. He really didn't expect something old man out in the woods to be on to the best oil out there. I recently went looking for information about a four wheeler, Kawasaki Bayou,250, and the old guys are running Rotella,, Can the zddp be boosted? Yes,, Does it need it? Depends, define need.. be real, just how many miles do you want to ride it? How many years will the bike last? So, the engine Wil run for twenty five years, will you? Are you willing to keep the rest of it Up, serviceable, for that long, or use it, enjoy it, sell it? I'm wishing the 100,000 mile guys would chip in. How many years did that take, maintenance required (not battery, brakes, lamps,oil changes ), additives, I Saw a beat down, rusty, ugly, ugly Savage, probably fifteen years ago with real close to 100,000 on it. Looking at it, I can't believe it received ANY TLC, oil changes,maybe, oil additives, Ohhh, I can't imagine it.. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Kris01 on 09/29/15 at 20:15:45 Hmmm, good info Dave. Seems I read on this site that boosting Rotella with 2 ozs caused the Zn to jump to ~1200 ppm. Was Rotella reformulated recently to be higher in Zn than what I thought? Maybe I misread the info in the booster table. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Kris01 on 09/29/15 at 20:51:30 Ok, I just reread the booster table thread. Seems I was targeting a higher number than I thought. I was thinking I was using 1200 ppm. I was really using ~1500 ppm. I was also (at time of last oil change) breaking in a new engine. It's about time for another oil change now. I'll recant my last statement and say now that I'll be running Rotella T straight. Well, maybe not exactly straight. I'll dilute the remaining 1/2 gallon or so of boosted Rotella with straight Rotella until I use it up. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Kruzader on 03/20/16 at 13:28:22 I bought a used bike with 16k miles on it. Not knowing how it was taken care of, I want to do my best with it. Thinking of getting a gallon of the Red Line Synthetic 10w/40 Motorcycle Oil. But it is double the amount of the Rotella. OUCH. http://www.jpcycles.com/product/607-135 If I understand Moly is NOT recommended to have, but now is nearly impossible not to find it in oils, right? I still need to do other adjustments to the bike, so if i can save some cash it will help in so many other parts. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/20/16 at 15:47:09 At 16,000, it's time to check the cam chain. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dave on 03/20/16 at 17:20:31 Krusader: Buying expensive oil can't correct for past abuse. If you run Rotella T, you have as good of chance of your bike surviving as any expensive oil. Adding a smidge of Redline ZDDP can't hurt and still doesn't break the bank. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/20/16 at 17:39:08 647B7D7A6760516151697B773C0E0 wrote:
Stick with what is proven. We have members with over 100,000 miles. Rotella T is cheap and reliable. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Kruzader on 03/20/16 at 22:31:16 Dave & Justin, Thanks - you guys are right. I bought the redline on amazon only because it was clearly to know I was getting the right one. For the love of me I could not distinguish which Rotella Oil to get. I read the post, but got tons of different results when I searched for the Synthetic -- Rotella T-6 5W40 ... and to confuse me more the factory manual states 10w-40. If you can post a link to any store, Amazon, anything that shows me the bottle and the specs...I'll get right to it. Thanks. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by KennyG on 03/20/16 at 23:36:50 Kruzader, WalMart has the Rotella as do many of the auto parts stores. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005CHT4W6/ref=sr_rp_1?m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&ie=UTF8&qid=1458542175&sr=sr-1&keywords=rotella+t6+5w-40+synthetic&refinements=p_85%3A2470955011 Kenny G |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dave on 03/21/16 at 02:51:01 And if you don't want or need the more expensive synthetic....just get the 15W-40 Rotella. It is what I use in my bike. You can buy it at Walmart, Tractor Supply, and most auto stores for as little as $ 12 a gallon when it is on sale....closer to $ 16 at normal prices. http://www.amazon.com/Rotella-550019913-Triple-Protection-15W-40/dp/B001B16NP8/ref=pd_sim_263_4?ie=UTF8&dpID=51XFAGe8vRL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR121%2C160_&refRID=0N2X7DA7BNBBNSTVXZ7X |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Art Webb on 03/21/16 at 09:24:02 Rotella T 15w40 is what all my bike run |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/21/16 at 12:48:44 When I had a bike, I ran it, it goes in the backhoe, and when the mechanic I hired asked me what oil I was running, he was pleased, and the mowers and the pick-up, heck, everything that doesn't demand a five w something or other, gets Rotella. It's cheap, it's available and it's good. How very autobiographical. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Kruzader on 03/22/16 at 18:10:45 Kenny, I saw that one but wasn't sure if it was the right one because it said diesel. 4668634E7F6C7E650D0 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by KennyG on 03/23/16 at 07:49:01 Kruzader, Rotella is designed for diesel engines, but it has the correct additives for our old time flat tappet engines. As others have stated you really don't have to use the synthetic blend you can use the Rotella 15W/40 which is less expensive. I use synthetic oil because of previous history with it in air cooled motorcycle engines, I have had good luck with it. Kenny G |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Art Webb on 03/23/16 at 09:46:17 Rotella is heavy duty general purpose engine oil it is recommended for diesel engines because it has what they need, too If you read the back label on the conventional (can't speak for the synthetic) it is JASO certified for use in motorcycles, and in some cars, as well as farm equipment, mowers, etc |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Kruzader on 04/23/16 at 16:50:50 How much Redline ZDDP booster should be added if i'm using the Rotella 15W-40 oil? Aww found the link http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1345080430/0 |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dmlindley on 09/06/17 at 15:32:31 This is my first post so I hope I didn't miss this being posted earlier. It looks like Royal Purple 10W40 was tested and rated well, see pic attached that was clipped from a pdf I found. I used Royal Purple HPS 10W40 with my previous bike and plan to use with my 02 Savage. You can purchase on Amazon for roughly $10.08 per qt if you get the case of 12. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/17 at 16:32:20 I'm not spending just shy of thirty bucks to change oil. Rotella has run a Savage over 155,000 miles. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Kris01 on 09/06/17 at 17:23:40 Wally World typically has Rotella on sale for around $14/gallon. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by batman on 09/06/17 at 19:14:57 royal purple is car oil ,it doesn't contain any phosphorus ,but does contain friction modifiers . doesn't sound like anything to be using in a Savage. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dmlindley on 09/06/17 at 23:21:46 3132273E323D676B530 wrote:
All samples were taken from brand new, thoroughly shaken bottles of oil. And all tests were performed at ALS Tribology, formerly Staveley Labs, in Sparks, Nevada. Royal Purple 10W30 HPS (High Performance Street) Silicon = 7 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number) Boron = <5 ppm (detergent/dispersant) Magnesium = 46 ppm (detergent/dispersant) Calcium = 3626 ppm (detergent/dispersant) Barium = <1 ppm (detergent/dispersant) Total detergent/dispersant = 3676 ppm Zinc = 1774 ppm (anti-wear) Phos = 1347 ppm (anti-wear) Moly = 189 ppm (anti-wear) Total anti-wear = 3310 ppm Potassium = 11 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor) Sodium = 2 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor) TBN = 10.2 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates) Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 11.3 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/07/17 at 05:09:10 Noob goes right for the oil war.... |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/07/17 at 06:06:11 Your money, and bike, Just seems kinda unreasonable to not use what is cheap, available, and proven. If you can get 150,000 miles on brand X, do rings and valves and keep rolling, it just hits me odd.. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dmlindley on 09/07/17 at 09:53:57 5953575D565F5B520C0A0E3E0 wrote:
Hehe you're right. What I posted is doubtfully new news to anyone here that has been running savage's for years. Belay my last :) 726D6B6C71764777477F6D612A180 wrote:
This is true, if you veteran savage owners trust it then it's obviously for good reason. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by batman on 09/08/17 at 16:07:20 Dml ,your oil lists Moly 189ppm ,which is known to cause slippage in wet clutches . |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by zipidachimp on 09/08/17 at 21:20:52 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ! 8-) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Ruttly on 09/09/17 at 21:17:22 Someone say OIL WAR !!!! Toga Toga Toga We must have a new know it all member ;D |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Ruttly on 09/09/17 at 21:22:30 I forgot do we horse whip first or tar & feather first ? :o |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by zipidachimp on 09/09/17 at 21:54:02 24 pages of Rotella and some still don't get it! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! 8-) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Ruttly on 09/10/17 at 09:26:56 With age comes wisdom ! I think we all had to learn that Zipi I remember now it's tar & feathers first ! ;D |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/10/17 at 23:16:08 I feel obligated to tell them. Then, they're on their own. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Ruttly on 09/11/17 at 21:57:52 Really , let them read 24 pages first and then if they can't figure it out on their own then you can splain it ! You gettin soft & compassionate in you OLD AGE ! I'm startin to worry bout you ? Remember this could be oil war number WHAT ? This is Rev. JOG , same one that ate 2 newbies a day for breakfast ? |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by SoC on 09/12/17 at 09:15:34 As FYI, in pouring over the years of discussion on this, it appears it can be difficult for some to find Rotella T4 except online. As it is recommended as a lube for diesel engines, often boat dealers will stock it as it was specified for Yanmar diesels for years. Though as a "boat" thing they always extract a little extra at the register. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dave on 09/12/17 at 09:32:06 1415100201020D10080A630 wrote:
I can't see why anyone in the US would have trouble finding it - it is in the automotive department of almost every Big Box store, auto parts store, truck stop and even comes in 2, 5 and 55 gallon containers at Tractor Supply. Maybe those folks who live in the Mountain Time Zone where it is 50 miles to the grocery store.......or in downtown Manhattan don't have the same type of shopping environment that I do - but I can likely find Rotella at every block where the retail stores are located. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Ruttly on 09/12/17 at 12:13:31 Yeah what Dave said. Got a Walmart , Got Rotella ! |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by SoC on 09/12/17 at 19:58:35 Well it's not well realized but Walmarts around the country vary quite a bit as to what they stock in store, and sell, they are no where near the same. They are stocked based on local market factors and competition. When I had my house in Ruskin Fla., the local Walmarts was stocked with merch we would and will never see in a NJ Walmart. Here in Jersey, Walmarts are about 50% grocery stores. The demographs are a lot different than say, for example, Ruskin Fl. A check on line indicates Rotella T4 is not available in Walmart stores anywhere near me. Same with Advanced Auto Parts. Places like Tractor Supply have only very recently moved into NJ. The cost of real estate and doing business as well as regulation in NJ keeps many great retailers the rest of the country take for granted from not operating here. I believe Gary lives out near one of the few Tractor Supplies in the state. If the traffic is good it's about an hour for me each way, if bad over an hour and a half. But I live at the shore here in Jersey and I go to the local boat yard, Yanmar Dealer, for oil. Life in suburbia can be tough for those who do their own wrench work/fabrication and need supplies. We have more Bed, Bath and Beyond's, than hardware stores (if you don't count Home Depot and Lowe's, which are stocked similarly to Walmart). |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/12/17 at 21:18:17 5455504241424D50484A230 wrote:
Indeed, about 8 miles from my house...closer then the wallymart |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/13/17 at 04:07:53 Check out the gloves at Tractor Supply. The deer skin fit so good I can get the card out and fill up without taking them off. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Ruttly on 09/13/17 at 10:12:25 So if That is true , then we can start our own Rotella black market $$ supplying our members in lower 48 & Canada and the rest will need to do their homework to find an equal quality oil ! |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by badwolf on 09/13/17 at 10:31:17 For anyone that has a WalMart nearby that does not stock Rotella, try ordering it on-line for in store pick-up. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dmlindley on 09/13/17 at 10:47:40 5152475E525D070B330 wrote:
Ahh good to know :) 183F3E3E26334A0 wrote:
I'll take my punishment. I know better now :) |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Ruttly on 09/13/17 at 12:06:58 466F6E6B6C666E677B3A3A020 wrote:
You have been forgiven , Welcome to the S/S Forum ! Do not hesitate to ask questions , great info here ! |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by LANCER on 09/14/17 at 04:43:59 I picked up some oil yesterday at Wally World and got Valvoline Heavy Duty Diesel 15W-40. I called and asked about the ZDDP level in it and was told it was 1270 ppm. T-4 was priced at $13.97/gal and the Valvoline was only $11.97/gal. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dave on 09/14/17 at 05:19:22 Lancer: Find out if it is safe for wet clutches before you use it - make sure there aren't friction modifiers in it. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by FriesOne on 06/27/18 at 07:38:44 As I read through all these posts on ZDDP, PPM, yadda yadda. I still cannot come to a clear decision or answer as to which oil I should be putting in my ‘08 Savage. She’s thirsty and she just wants a drink you guys.... I live in Canada, Vancouver Island to be exact. I’ve seen Rotella T6 in my local Lordco & Walmart retail stores. Could someone PLEASE give me a no BS straight shot answer as to which exact oil to use, and if I should use a certain additive. Exact brand and specifications (5W-40/10W-40/15W-40)?!?!? Please and thanks! I’m a complete newb at all this but, controversy aside.. Someone for the love of god tell me what to put in my bike haha |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by Dave on 06/27/18 at 07:57:29 The current formula for Rotella T4 (15W-40) and the Rotella T6 (5W40) are both good oils, and the current 1,200 ppm of ZDDP don't require the use of any booster. I use the Rotella oil......depends on my mood which one I use. |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by zipidachimp on 06/27/18 at 23:49:21 Fries: I'm 30 miles east in Surrey, have 2 '08s, use T4 15-40. Nip across to Bellingham, $14.45 gal. Done! Cheers! 8-) ps: Dave: tried the Valvoline last change with 1 oz/gal redline. works fine, no slip! |
|
Title: Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Post by FriesOne on 06/27/18 at 23:56:39 Thanks Dave! And Zip, much appreciated. If I’m ever over on the mainland I’ll give ya a shout man, go for a cruise 8-) Muchas gracias mis amigos! |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |