SuzukiSavage.com - RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS

rl153 Serious Thumper Offline S40 Just right! Posts: 900 Bloomfield,CT Gender:	Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Reply #45 - 08/10/12 at 11:13:24 what about this stuff ,zddplus? http://www.amazon.com/ZDDPPlus-ZDDP-Engine-Additive-Phosphorus/product-review...
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #46 - 08/10/12 at 11:31:07

I see ZDDPlus at 4 oz for $10 vs 16 ounces for $15 on the Redline, so simple economics might come into play as you only use half the redline for a big crankcase of oil, whereas the ZDDPlus is one per normal crankcase.

At a nyquil cap per oil change, I can measure the Redline pretty easily, but how in the world are you going to measure out 1/12 of that 4 ounce bottle for a Rotella bump job?

Plus I can't personally vouch for ZDDPlus as I have never touched the stuff ..... I can vouch for Redline.

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CalisOsin Senior Member Offline Rather die, than live down on my knees. Posts: 297 Orange County, Ca Gender:	Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Reply #47 - 08/10/12 at 11:34:56 rl153 wrote on 08/10/12 at 11:13:24: what about this stuff ,zddplus? http://www.amazon.com/ZDDPPlus-ZDDP-Engine-Additive-Phosphorus/product-review... I don't know a lot about oil, but I know how to do web searches, so I found this for the gurus here to peruse. The tech sheets for ZDDplus.
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #48 - 08/10/12 at 15:37:06

rl153 wrote on 08/10/12 at 07:39:50:

Hate to interrupt but,I read a 16 oz bottle of redline break in additive has 20,500 ppm zddp in the whole bottle .That means each oz has 1,281 ppm per oz. Is this right? So how much should we add to the rotella t-6 to bring it up to 1,500 ppm ?Thanks

Hang on a minute... I thought PPM stood for "parts per million", which is essentially a ratio or fraction. In this case, it would be 205/10000 (or 2.05%). That stays the same whether you are talking about a gallon or a teaspoon. That said, if you add one ounce of the something with 20500 ppm ZDDP to one quart (32 oz.) of something with 600 ppm ZDDP, you get 33 oz. with 1203.03 ppm. At least that's what I've come up with. Anyone have better math?

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #49 - 08/10/12 at 16:17:52

PPM is based on weight, not volume. The oil has to be a weight, and the ZDDP has to be a weight. Quarts and ounces are just what we happen to pour it out in, not what it is specified in.

Weigh the booster. Turn the ZDDP in the booster into simple grams of "booster powder" (since you know the ppm) as if you had taken it all out magically. Now divide it by 12 to get the "booster powder" per Nyquil cap. Do the same math to the remaining weight of oil to get the weight per ounce of empty oil.

Weigh the bulk oil. Do the same magical removal from your bulk oil and state the total weight "booster powder" it contains and the total weight of the remaining bulk oil.

Add the Nyquil cap's worth of booster powder and the existing oil's booster powder, then reverse the math with the original weight of bulk oil (less the weight of the bulk oil booster powder) plus the weight of 1 ounce of booster oil (less the booster powder course).

The result should get close to reality.

Why do it this way? You have booster ppm stated against the empty booster oil weight and the bulk oil ppm stated against the empty oil weight and the math to do the related rates intermixing of the two systems is calculus and that is well beyond my old fart pay grade ....

Wink

But heck, even I can turn them back into "booster powder" add them together then apply them to the weight of the oil (minus the powder) plus the weight of an ounce of booster oil (minus the booster powder) and I should get pretty close to reality.

Or I could just follow the directions on the bottle .....

Roll Eyes

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #50 - 08/10/12 at 16:18:30

This is directly from Redline's site on the product info for the ZDDP additive.

Quote:

MORE TECHNICAL INFORMATION

Bottle (16oz) contains:
33.8 grams total ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)
17,000 ppm, 7.8 grams Phosphorus (P)
20,500 ppm, 9.4 grams Zinc (Zn)
16.6 grams Sulphur (S)

Increases of antiwear per quart by using one bottle (16oz.): Oil capacity:
Phosphorus Zinc
15 quarts 610 ppm 736 ppm
12 quarts 763 ppm 920 ppm
10 quarts 915 ppm 1104 ppm
8 quarts 1145 ppm 1380 ppm
7 quarts 1307 ppm 1577 ppm
6 quarts 1525 ppm 1840 ppm
5 quarts 1830 ppm 2208 ppm
4 quarts 2288 ppm 2760 ppm
1 quart 9160 ppm 11040 ppm

Half Bottle (8oz.) When Treating:
12 quarts 382 ppm 460 ppm
10 quarts 458 ppm 552 ppm
8 quarts 572 ppm 690 ppm
6 quarts 763 ppm 920 ppm
5 quarts 915 ppm 1104 ppm
4 quarts 1145 ppm 1380 ppm

Hope this helps.

R.F.

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Oldfeller--FSO Serious Thumper ModSquad Offline Hobby is now "concentrated neuropany" Posts: 12638 Fayetteville, NC Gender:	Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Reply #51 - 08/10/12 at 16:25:35 Oh no !!! Yew threw That Durned Chart up there in front of EVERYBODY so you have to explain how it works !!!! .... increases of anti wear per quart my arse, and they don't even list 2 quarts .... .... what is that first ppm number? And then what is the second one? .....
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #52 - 08/10/12 at 16:40:25

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 08/10/12 at 16:25:35:

Oh no !!! Yew threw That Durned Chart up there in front of EVERYBODY so you have to explain how it works !!!!

.... increases of anti wear per quart my arse, and they don't even list 2 quarts ....

LMAO if I knew how they figured that out I would be one of the chemists, I can't figure out the mathematical relationship between what is in the bottle to how they figure it will increase per what they list. I mean I'm good at mathematics but this doesn't seem right looking at the chart unless some special formula has to be used.

R.F. Grin

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #53 - 08/10/12 at 16:50:31

I was digging through Amazon.com's Prime motorcycle oils to see what else they had that might be a nugget. (or a good Bill tweeker, either one)

Found they had Royal Purple for $11.25 a quart, so I started to list it.

Then halfway through posting the specs on the oil according to Her Royal Purple Majesty herself it it plainly stated that Royal Purple was JASO MA2 rated.

Now, do you think Royal Purple is sooo durn silly they quoted a JASO MA2 spec that they say they meet that says they aren't allowed to have more than 1,000 ppm of ZDDP ????

hmmmmmm ....

"The Queen has no clothes ..... she's buck arsed naked !!"

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #54 - 08/10/12 at 16:54:34

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 08/10/12 at 16:50:31:

I was digging through Amazon.com's Prime motorcycle oils to see what else they had that might be a nugget. (or a good Bill tweeker, either one)

Found they had Royal Purple for $11.25 a quart, so I started to list it.

Then halfway through posting the specs on the oil according to Her Royal Purple Majesty herself it it plainly stated that Royal Purple was JASO MA2 rated.

Now, do you think Royal Purple is sooo durn silly they quoted a JASO spec that they say they meet that says they aren't allowed to have more than 1,000 ppm of ZDDP ????

hmmmmmm ....

"The Queen has no clothes ..... she's buck naked !!"

I've never trusted the purple stuff myself, only syns I've used have been Amsoil and Rotella T6

And I will say the 1 and only reason I haven't been using Amsoil in my Savage or any motorcycle I've owned is because the sump capacity and filtration capacity is to small to realize the full benefit of using an expensive oil such as that. Now if it had the capacity to allow the extended change intervals I would switch to it and use it.

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rfw2003 Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1108 Yantis, TX	Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS Reply #55 - 08/10/12 at 17:00:19 Now that's got me thinking, wonder if there is an easy way to adapt a bypass filtration system to the Savage motor, doing this would also increase the oil capacity and filter capacity.
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #56 - 08/10/12 at 17:28:16

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 08/10/12 at 16:17:52:

Why do it this way? You have booster ppm stated against the empty booster oil weight and the bulk oil ppm stated against the empty oil weight and the math to do the related rates intermixing of the two systems is calculus and that is well beyond my old fart pay grade ....

Bah, just do a weighted average like Savage_Rob did. When they're making a supplement, they don't suspend the ZDDP in mercury or cotton balls. The density of the supplement is probably the same as the oil (most of the supplement probably IS oil) so you don't need to make it harder than it is.

Next challenge is to find all the ZDDP boosters that advertise their exact concentration of ZDDP, their price per ounce, and who has the most ZDDP per dollar.

Then we can do a blend table for Rotella and any other oils that make the recommended list.

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #57 - 08/10/12 at 17:37:21

Sounds like fun, I'm sure you'll enjoy doing it. Wink

watch out for the ones that aren't recommended for wet clutch bike engines

Seriously though, I have gone through the Amazon oils now -- there are no more candidates other than the ones we already know are in the throes of reformulation.

This sucks, I gotta believe that somebody is gonna grow a brain that they just can't dump off all the old bikes and cars and roll on without giving us something to put in our crankcases.

Mobil, Exxon, Chevron --- all abandoning an entire market and just handing it over to Rotella ???

Really can't see that ....

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #58 - 08/10/12 at 17:46:10

rfw2003 wrote on 08/10/12 at 17:00:19:

Now that's got me thinking, wonder if there is an easy way to adapt a bypass filtration system to the Savage motor, doing this would also increase the oil capacity and filter capacity. Undecided

Issue is the low pressure and volume of our oil pump system doesn't supply enough volume/pressure to do this except when we are running at half speed and better.

Both Verslagen and I figured one out, but the silica build up problem (dust) in the oil rendered the idea moot.

Thus my efforts at better fine dust filtration through a thick 2" oiled media -- the supermagnet stopped all the super fine ferrous junk but nothing so far can filter out microfine silica, so I tried to keep it from entering the system in the first place.

Huh

and then there is that personal quirk that I want to change my oil at least once a year regardless .....

.... and the fact the bypass systems looked ugly hanging off the front of the bike (like a set of forward controls).

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #59 - 08/10/12 at 18:05:39

Cool. I'll make a blend table for T6 and whatever additive comes out to the best deal ZDDP-wise.

So far, the best one I know of is Redline. 15 bucks for a 16oz. bottle. Here are the specs from Redline:

Bottle (16oz) contains:
33.8 grams total ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)
17,000 ppm, 7.8 grams Phosphorus (P)
20,500 ppm, 9.4 grams Zinc (Zn)
16.6 grams Sulphur (S)

So that's 33.8g ZDDP (1.192oz.) for 15 bucks = $12.58/oz. Let's give it a few days for a better deal to come up and I'll make a spreadsheet showing how much of the winning additive to put into each quart of T6 to get a desired level of ZDDP.

Y'all post up your competitors and keep it clean, boys (no moly Cheesy

)

Of course it goes without saying, the vendor must publish either a percent zinc, ppm ZDDP, or total zinc or ZDDP in the container.

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