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RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS (Read 6250 times)
rfw2003
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #30 - 08/09/12 at 19:05:21
 
Boule’tard wrote on 08/09/12 at 18:27:40:
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 08/09/12 at 18:05:28:
 
(now we will see if Bill is an honest type politician -- he loved Klotz when he didn't know what it had in it, so here comes a younger sexier red-head who shows and tells everything about herself -- and she is stacked, really really stacked)

Grin Grin
Now to be fair.. it says 0.25% zinc = 2500ppm, not 21,000.  A mere doubling of the amount in Rotella T6, plus a pinch.. Still, I'll take THOSE bazongas.  Grin Grin

So the % does truly for the most part directly relate to a straight conversion to ppm with just a multiplier of 10,000???  How did you come about finding this out?  I have read no where about this.   I'm not questioning your knowledge about this I'm just trying to find were you come up with the direct relation to ppm

R.F.
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #31 - 08/09/12 at 19:10:52
 

1% equals 1 part per hundred, so it also equals 10 parts per thousand, 100 parts per ten thousand, 1000 parts per hundred thousand or 10000 parts per million

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_convert_1_percent_to_ppm#ixzz236UEPTCo
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #32 - 08/09/12 at 19:13:15
 


Tool to do it without old person brain fart errors getting into the mix.

Roll Eyes

http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/number/Percent_to_PPM.htm
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #33 - 08/09/12 at 19:19:16
 
Redline's web page states that there is 0.25% zinc (by weight) in their oil, so I just converted that to ppm.  Oldfeller took the phosphorus count (0.21%) and converted that to ppm and generously took the lower number.  One ppm is one part per million.. very easy to convert percentages to ppm as long as everything is by weight.

Unless I have been seriously lied to by google, each molecule of ZDDP is made of 1 atom of zinc, 2 atoms of phosphorus, and some other stuff. My chemistry is too rusty to look into the weights of the other components of ZDDP and balance it out for a total ppm, but if their zinc and phosphorus is being put in as ZDDP, then the ZDDP must be at least the sum of the two, which is 4600ppm.  I believe their zinc and phosphorus is being made into ZDDP because the atomic weight of phosphorus is just under half the weight of an atom of zinc such that 2 phosphoruses makes a 21 to a single zinc's 25.

We need someone with a good chemistry head or some sort of x-ray glasses to get the full ZDDP number.  Help, Charon!!  Is it a D-cup or double D???  Cheesy
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #34 - 08/09/12 at 19:40:54
 

What we really need is a current VOA of the motorcycle product in question.


Here is an old VOA of a car product .... sorta useless, I know.  
But the Blackstone lab data shows it to be in line with normal sorts of car racing oils ....

 (not double or triple D'd)

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=47821...
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #35 - 08/09/12 at 21:00:55
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 08/09/12 at 19:10:52:
1% equals 1 part per hundred, so it also equals 10 parts per thousand, 100 parts per ten thousand, 1000 parts per hundred thousand or 10000 parts per million

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_convert_1_percent_to_ppm#ixzz236UEPTCo


Thanks just what I was looking for.  Smiley  Now I know for sure when I'm reading on results how to find out when they only list the percentages.

R.F.
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #36 - 08/09/12 at 21:40:37
 

Hark !!!   What light by yonder window breaks ????  

It is the red ester oils and the sour scent of bullshit doth smiteth up against mine nose and it cloggeth up mine sinnial cavities with suspicion.


Follow along please, just watch the bouncing ball bounce along the sing along words for what MAY be an explanation of these overlarge bazongas in question, as to why we are having such issues giving too much credence for their natural development.   Aye, and they may well be the result of clever chirrgeons wielding very sharp scalpels in a cunning way.

First, riddle me this, when is an oil not an oil -- answer, when it is a TRUE PAO which is an ester, not an oil.

Both Klotz and Redline claim to be ester based true PAOs, so it is a given that they are made of lighter weight ester molecules and then the oil itself weighs less per given volume.  

And oil is sold by volume, be it quart or gallon.  But ppm is calculated by weight, weight of additive vs weight of ester/oil.

If this is so, then the same amount of ZDDP (zinc and phosphorus compounds) will show up as a higher percentage by weight (and a higher ppm) than it would in a more normal petrol oil based product if it were mixed to the same quart volume of finished oil product.

Now, having proposed a theory that might partially explain the double Ds -- riddle me this, would Blackstone Labs report it the same way or is their testing be "oil weight neutral"?   I think the very accurately measured weight of the oil sample is an integral part of oil lab testing and it would be racked right into the ppm results.  How could it not be since ppm is a weight based calculation?

Now, are the inflated double D's fer real?   Yes, I still think there is a lot of flesh in there, but the fact the lift mechanisms are air bags instead of hydraulics does tend to tilt some the measurements a little bitty tiny bit.  

Still, Redline racing oils are mentioned throughout their history to run at around the 2,500 ppm level of ZDDP.   They are mentioned lots of times in racing oil discussions as having the highest ppm of ZDDP available.

VOA results on this particular motorcycle oil will eventually tell the tale as Blackstone isn't in the advertising business, they are in the independent lab analysis business.

Smiley

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« Last Edit: 08/09/12 at 23:26:06 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #37 - 08/10/12 at 07:39:50
 
Hate to interrupt but,I read a 16 oz bottle of redline break in additive has 20,500 ppm zddp in the whole bottle .That means each oz has 1,281 ppm per  oz. Is this right? So how much should we add to the rotella t-6 to bring it up to 1,500 ppm ?Thanks
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #38 - 08/10/12 at 08:15:02
 

What are you bumping?   How much ZDDP does your base oil have in it already?  And what is your goal ppm?

Bumping instructions on the bottle go like this.  1/2 bottle will bump 4-6 quarts of auto oil (600 ppm) up to grade.  What is grade to Redline?  Quite likely a lot, Redline believes in a lot.  We will ASSume it is 1,500 ppm or more since we are never told.

So you got two quarts instead of 6 so you use 1/3 of recommended which is 1/3 of 1/2 = 1/6 to boost 2 quarts of 600 ppm auto oil up to snuff.  

But if you are boosting Rotella instead of sorry car oil (you have twice the 600 ppm already) so you need half of the 1/6 = 1/12 of 16 ounces or 1.3333 ounces

So, you got a nyquil cap or pepto-bismol cap somewhere in your medicine cabinet that measures out an ounce.  You can see the little ounce line down a bit from the rim, but instead you fill it up to the rim and call it good enough.

Somebody can figure it out better, but this is the method based upon the bottle instructions and a nyquil cap.   If you really were boosting just SN sorry car oil, you'd use two caps full.

Don't forget to shake the bottle, the white residue on the bottom must be shaken into solution before measuring.
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #39 - 08/10/12 at 08:23:55
 
thanks, I was thinking of adding the redline to both my s40 which has rotella t-6,21/2 quarts, and my car ,which has 5-30 conventional valvoline oil 5 quarts. The valvoline has 800ppm zddp i think. I don't want to go too high with the zddp,so I thought I'd use 1 oz in the bike as you suggested, and 4oz in the car.Appreciate your input.
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #40 - 08/10/12 at 08:53:39
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 08/09/12 at 21:40:37:

Both Klotz and Redline claim to be ester based true PAOs, so it is a given that they are made of lighter weight ester molecules and then the oil itself weighs less per given volume.  

And oil is sold by volume, be it quart or gallon.  But ppm is calculated by weight, weight of additive vs weight of ester/oil.

If this is so, then the same amount of ZDDP (zinc and phosphorus compounds) will show up as a higher percentage by weight (and a higher ppm) than it would in a more normal petrol oil based product if it were mixed to the same quart volume of finished oil product.

Darn those bazongas, you start looking at them and your eyes start going all spirally and before you know it, a quick cursory glance isn't good enough. Now you have to look some more, get your hands and whole face on them. While they may have a hypnotic effect, it is our scientific duty to be sure we are comparing apples to apples.. and watermelons to watermelons.

Fortunately, when you DO have one in each hand, say a synthetic in one hand and a dino in the other.. bouncing and squeezing the jugs.. one does not feel appreciably heavier than the other. As an inexperienced MiddleAgefeller, I thought they were about the same until you mentioned that they aren't.  Sure enough, at similar temperature and pressure, PAOs are about 60 kg/m3 lighter than dino-oil, or 7% asymmetrical. Hells bells!

This is a shocking revelation, and we must heretofore use the proper straps, restraints, penalties and boosters to correct this most distressing condition. On both sides.

But even considering any uh, padding that the new redhead may be using, you can't fake awesome. Redline says there's 0.25% zinc in there by weight, that's more than double the figured probable needed amount. However things are figured.. zinc per pound, zinc+phosphorus per pound, or some mail-order inflatable volumetric thing, the oil has at least 2500ppm zing to it.
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #41 - 08/10/12 at 08:57:29
 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_pressure_additive

Educational materials for organic sulphur compounds which are included in Redline ZDDP booster.  

(hey, even if you were to dump in 16.6 grams of straight fine sulphur powder into the booster oil and mix it up good -- the result is an organic sulphur compound as the sulphur instantly bonds to the oil molecules.)

Redline is neat because on their website they list everything that is in it and the sulphur compounds caught my eye as they too have been limited and removed by the same EPA mess that took out all the ZDDP.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&pcid=1

Example, CI-4 HDEO's had a lot more sulphur compounds and a whale of a lot more ZDDP than any car motor oil ever did, the sulphur organics help to build a strong boundary film on bare steel parts.

What you don't see in Redline booster are any energy star moly or other "bad for the clutch" additives.

I wonder what was in Rislone and Lucas boosters that caused the manufacturers tech reps to shy away so strongly from wet clutches .....
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #42 - 08/10/12 at 09:52:01
 
.
 
OK, travelling back from Bonzonga Land, after having carefully tested the size/weight difference between the two to the point we have satisfaction they are truly large and "real enough" -- we shall list them under the Amazon category for those with larger pocket books who really truely wish to go make Bill squirm with red-stuff envy.

Back to the question of enough.   We have all read a good bit now, so we can take a swing at "enough" as pertains to the Savage split fork rocker/tappet engine now.

600 ppm is way way so not enough
800 ppm is so not enough
1,000 ppm is not enough
1,200 ppm is enough
1,500 ppm is comfortably enough
1,850 ppm is more than ample (rubinesque)
2,100 is somewhat difficult to control
2,500 likely might smother you accidentally
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« Last Edit: 08/10/12 at 11:14:11 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #43 - 08/10/12 at 10:12:14
 
Since these are free floating atoms, browsing around for a bare spot of metal... wouldn't the ppm just be the length of time before oil change?
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #44 - 08/10/12 at 10:57:21
 

Yup, we are counting the spare reserve troopers looking to get into a place in the front line trench so they can go to shooting at the enemy.

When the fighting action gets hot & heavy and a mortar shell hits the trench (a touch event in the engine when the oil film breaks down) what you are looking for then is enough local spare troops to instantly pour into the gap to keep the enemy at bay as shortly another mortar shell or hand grenade is gonna hit on about the same spot and you will need yet another bunch of reserve troops to be able to pour in to hold your line.

You can go to war with just enough troops to cover your front line (giving them enough time to move around and fill in all the gaps so they are one deep everywhere) .... and they will do jest fine in peace time exercises, but in the real war scenarios you got no reserve troops for any rapid deployment response in case of mortar fire or shelling or hand grenades (never mind all them pesky bullets flying about that do occasionally hit somebody).

I thought this was basic Oil War 101 known by everybody around here -- and also remember it is good for your troops to be wearing that new fangled synthetic body armour so them overheating flame throwers don't knock them all out instantly when the enemy attacks using his heat weapons.

Wink

Check your paired VOA and UOA that are done by some folks -- halving the ZDDP is fairly common in these sets.   Half your Rotella's start point and you have SN car oil that you are dumping out into the drain pain.

But to Verslagen's point, we don't keep the oil in our bikes more than a couple of 3-5 thousand miles which is a lot less than the car guys do.

So mebbe 1,200 is enough, comfortably enough, considering our quick change out rate.
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« Last Edit: 08/10/12 at 16:57:34 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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