Oldfeller,

My whole point to this argument is that there can be two issues once someone finds their release lever beyond the marks. Not all issues are fixed by simply adding a longer rod. If it's clutch pack wear your release arm will move down (requiring a shorter rod). If it's internal linkage wear your release arm will move up (requiring a longer rod). This is not rocket science. It's a very simple setup much like every other bike I've worked on in the past thirty some odd years. If it's internal linkage wear THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG. It's very clear that it is NOT designed to have internal wear to the point of having to replace push rods. My guess is that the throughout bearing is not working properly. It may feel free enough by spinning it with a pencil while pushing on it, but more than likely, the load that's on it during actual operation is WAY, WAY more than that. I've read some posts that have claimed to have burned looking push rods. This is NOT the way of things. SOMETHING IS WRONG!

Oh well.....

I find this site very informative and entertaining. Takes the guess work out of some things on occasion. Sometimes it can just plain OLE confuse you if you don't know whose advise to take.

I came to this site after finding my clutch slipping with the thought of just replacing with heavier springs. Found the part where you said to clean them. Thought I'd try that. While I was in there I quickly studied the way it works. No surprise. It worked on the very same basic principle as every other clutch I've ever worked on. Put it all back together after the cleaning and found that I still had a slipping clutch. Way better, but still slipping. Came back to this thread and started reading more about it thinking maybe there's something I missed about the way it works. This is when I found out about the three different lengths of push rods. Posted my thoughts and was told I had it backwards. Well... I didn't have it backwards. Ever since then, I've been trying to get you to understand the way it actually works. Maybe if you understood it completely you wouldn't confuse anyone else on the subject. Tried to explain to you where you were wrong but you wouldn't have it. So I then had to take time and show you the way it actually works by taking a clutch disk out.

If the casual user finds themselves with the release arm up above the marks, more than likely they have a worn push rod. If the casual user finds themselves with the release arm below the marks, more than likely they need a shorter push rod to get the remaining use out of the clutch pack. I sure wouldn't just have them replacing with LONGER push rods all the time as you are. I would want them to know the whole story.

Maybe no one has tried replacing the throughout bearing to see if it would fix the problem with push rods wearing. But... just as sure as I'm sitting here. I'd be trying it. If your push rod is wearing and you're having to replace it with a longer and longer one each time, there has to be something wearing away in order to keep getting a longer one in. Not good.

The three clutch rods were a little tough to get a grip on at first. But after very little thought I think I have a pretty solid grasp on them now. The design of the clutch has limited throw. Not sure why, but I think it's because maybe they wanted a really easy pulling clutch for women. Or maybe it's a design flaw. Either way it's a short throw. By "short throw" I mean that the release lever moves a long distance and the rod only pushes a very short distance. This is simple leverage. The longer the release lever, and the shorter the release cam, the easier it is to pull. This is the release lever to cam relationship. In order to get maximum use out of our clutch packs we need the different length rods to keep the "throw" in the right place. That's all I was trying to figure out when I first posted.

Somehow you found yourself with a worn push rod and somehow believed it to be the way of things. Well it's not.

Now I'm sure your gonna post something that will blow everyone's mind and show how intelligent you are. Bottom line is that you don't understand this clutch yet and until you do... please don't confuse anyone else.

Or maybe you can be the first one to replace your throughout bearing, show everyone that it quit wearing your push rods, and get that real life experience you talk about. Then you can tell everyone how to COMPETELY fix the problem with wearing push rods.  

Wow.
That was some indepth War.
May I dare ask a few Clutch questions?

Background:
I just boaught my first ever Savage 86, it came with a Parts bike 87.
The running bike's clutch slips, but the guy said the part's bike clutch is new.
I plan to swap the cluth covers cause the parts bike cover is nicer. And it would seem like a good plan to inspect the Cam Chain Tensioner at the same time.

So:
1. Is there a easy way to tell a worn clutch from a good one, without disassembling the clutch assembly?
2. Which rotation does the SOB 32mm nut turn off?

thanks

PS: SuzukiSavage.com frickin rocks. You guys have shared and detailed darn near everything about this beasts. Well done!

It was a good war, both factual and informative and it led to new understanding of something that has been a puzzlement.

A very good war is one that leads to new and better understanding of a thing that can be both understood and followed.

The clutch is a bit weird on this bike.  Most bikes have a clutch basket that is mounted nearest the engine that is driven by the gears to the driveshaft......and then an outer cover that is connected to the transmission shaft with splines...and pulled into the plates by the springs.  When you "pull" on the outer cover you make the plates separate and it releases the clutch.  Some bikes use a lever that pulls on the outer plate from the clutch side of the bike....others use a long shaft that crosses through the engine and pushes on the outer cover from the sprocket side of the bike.

Our clutch has a third "intermediate" plate - both inside and outside plates are fixed in location - the intermediate plate is pulled by springs toward the outer cover to compress the plates.  In order to release the plates the clutch rod pushes the intermediate plate away from the outer plate (toward the center of the engine).  As the clutch plates wear the intermediate plate moves closer to the outside.....and you need a shorter rod to provide the needed clearance (free play).

Part number 13 in the linked diagram is the plate that moves outward as the clutch wears.

http://www.hondaofflorence.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=432124&catego...    

Thanks Dave and Justin!  Makes sense now. As part 13 approaches the case, part 22 (clutch rod) must decrease in length or it will prevent the clutch from fully engaging.

I wonder if the rod has a natural rate of wear to self compensate?  Just a thought...

Thanks old timer for instructions on cleaning plates!  

Thanks to rich for his posts as well.

What indicators are there that a longer rod is needed?

I found this thread when I was researching the clutch on this red-headed stepchild we call the savage. I just needed a simple adjustment, but was fascinated by the whole thread.

I will confess to anyone who asks that I am one of the most blatant morbidly disrespectful vehicle owner/operators on the planet. I have been since the age of 14. I have always HATED the feel of motor oil on my hands (and metal chips) and yet, I ended up being a reasonably competent self-taught machinist due to necessity.

I still hate vehicle maintenance. HATE IT. To me, a car has always been a means to get from one place to another more efficiently than walking. I had a 2000 Chevy S-10 LS pickup truck that I bought used in 2004 with 60K miles on it. The A/C unit broke so I unplugged it. The hood release lever broke (inside the cab) so I cut the wire and left it hanging out near the headlight so I could grab it with a pair of pliers to pop the hood. Being that it took too much effort, I rarely opened the hood at all unless the battery died. I put 125,000 miles on it and did a grand total of 4 oil changes in 12 years. Truck still runs great ( I sold it last year for $500).

I'm not bragging about this....it's nothing to brag about. It just is what it is. I want to get in my car and go, then get out and not even think about it. It isn't laziness....I have built very complex electro-mechanical fixtures and jigs and repaired machinery most of my adult life....I just hate engines. Lawn mowers too. Hot, greasy, oily, nasty little pieces of machinery, that's what they are. I dont even like to wash my car.

The reason I am relating this information is that I have finally succumbed to the harsh reality that my Savage will require care and feeding. I have gotten my hands dirty. I have found that I actually ENJOY working on the bike. My understanding of what makes a motorcycle "tick" has gone from about zero to about "idiot level", which is a tenfold increase. This bike and this forum are to blame

I hope to become more adept at motorcycle maintenance and repair as time goes on. Who knows, one day I may even reach the "competent" level. Thank you, all of you, for my free education. SuzukiSavage.com actually DOES rock!