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Finn Hammer's Savage (Read 2068 times)
LANCER
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #60 - 02/03/24 at 07:43:42
 
Race bike it’s not, that’s for sure.  The the testing of the LS650 engine by DBM has clearly shown that when taken to the outer edges of performance, parts begin failing.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #61 - 02/03/24 at 08:42:46
 
I like this power/torque print out that DBM shared on his stock S40.  It really paints the picture of the big flat torque curve these bikes have.  It may not have a ton of hp and torque, but it's delivering 80%+ maximum torque from about 1800rpm up to about 5500rpm.  To Dave's point, it's nice to be able to hang out in 3rd or 4th gear rather than running up and down through the gear box with the engine screaming between  6k-12k rpms on a short stroker.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #62 - 02/03/24 at 10:33:06
 
LANCER wrote on 02/03/24 at 07:43:42:
Race bike it’s not, that’s for sure.  The the testing of the LS650 engine by DBM has clearly shown that when taken to the outer edges of performance, parts begin failing.  

NOT my intension to piss off anyone here ! However I used Lancers quote cause a lot is said in a few words.Thanks to DBM & Finn for going the extra mile and sharing their work , outstanding. So I’m breaking it down ,”race bike it is not”. I’ve been saying for years “it’s a turd with personality “ , but every bike is a race bike , period. Why did we decide to buy a Savage, really think about it , I know why I bought mine for one defining feature. We were done with BSAs,Yamaha,Honda,Suzukis because of this feature or lack there of. The Happy button is that feature and your lying to yourself if you think other. If the Savage was kick start only , literally no one would buy it , yeah right no one. Ok Happy button and cheap to buy. Moving on , you can’t get blood out of a turnip , no , but it’s fun trying ! DBM/Finn and all the regulars here have done it already so we can choose where to stop on that journey.  I’ve built enough engines to know it’s a turd , overly heavy. I had several great teachers and mentors over the years. I build different than I used to , falling back on my training & experiences. Make the bike fun to ride , make the powerband as broad as it is powerful , forgiving  but definitely elevated from stock , but still retaining longevity. Cams dictate personality/purpose in most cases gain some , loose it somewhere else. What do you want ? All you can get , light to light , do the ton , what. I’ve ridden so many performance oriented bikes , some fast but just no fun to ride on the street , but on a track ! So what do you want ?

Sorry for the rant Finn
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #63 - 02/04/24 at 11:21:37
 
Finn, I am also a fan of David Vizard.  His book "How to Port & Flow Test Cylinder Heads" is very informative.    He has a couple of other books that are excellent all around tuning guides.  "How to Build Horsepower" and "Performance with Economy" are good practical roadmaps to improved performance.  The mods he suggests work.  Here are several other books you might find interesting:

Practical Engine Airflow by John Baechtel

Four-Stroke performance Tuning by A. Graham Bell

Harley Davidson Evolution 1340 Performance Tests by Branch Flowmetrics

V-Twin Tuners Handbook Vol 1 thru 4 by D. William Denish

Don't forget YouTube.  In addition to David Vizard's PowerTec, several channels come to mind.  Eric Weingartner has a lot of good instructional vids.  The MBE Group has some good vids as well.   Like all info available on the internet, you have to use your own judgement to determine what might be applicable to your situation and whether or not the info is technically sound.  There's a lot of screwy stuff on YouTube.

The LS cylinder head looks to me like it might lend itself to Vizard's Poly-Quad setup.  The exhaust port sweeps to the right.  That might help generate and maintain the vortex that the design is trying to create.  A few years back I fiddled around with it a bit, but I only had a larger intake valve.  Didn't try enlarging one of the exhaust valves.   Someday I might revisit that setup.  For now, I have my hands full with the 35mm intakes.   Since you have the ability to test at high differential pressure, I suspect you might be able to do a much better evaluation of that Poly-Quad setup.

When you go to Germany to set the Savage Land Speed Record (SLSR), you might wanna make sure you have a stock flywheel installed.  The heavy wheel is good for a little more top end.  

Regarding tank slappers, I've never experienced any head shake on my LS.  The frame is stock, and the forks are not raised.  The only change is the rear shocks are one-inch longer (11.5" vs 10.6").  I think it handles good with that configuration.  It runs straight at high-speed, and the low-speed manners are improved dramatically.  Never had a problem with head shake.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #64 - 02/05/24 at 08:22:27
 
Four stroke performance tuning  is an old book , but is heavy with real good info. In the book he uses a SR 500 as a build model , I learned some good stuff here and still use it as a reference. I was a bit down this morning till I read the SLSR : Savage Land Speed Record , I was laughing so hard I got a cramp in my side. I’m sorry Finn , I am with you on your quest. But that $hit was freakin funny made me spill my coffee. Made me realize we have no such record keeping as of yet. I think if gps is used we could keep records. I think Dave wins so far with 101 mph.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #65 - 02/05/24 at 09:18:26
 
Sorry Dave , 101.1 mph our current SLSR holder !
It also comes with a free target for your back
A goal , a quest , who is next to try ?


Won’t be me ,  Angry  , my speedo has auto record so if I beat my last record it holds it automatically, just checked my speedo , an embarrassing 93 mph
But it’s pretty quick gettin there !
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #66 - 02/05/24 at 09:44:40
 
Ruttly wrote on 02/05/24 at 09:18:26:
Sorry Dave , 101.1 mph our current SLSR holder !
It also comes with a free target for your back
A goal , a quest , who is next to try ?


Won’t be me ,  Angry  , my speedo has auto record so if I beat my last record it holds it automatically, just checked my speedo , an embarrassing 93 mph
But it’s pretty quick gettin there !


I am sure with the proper gearing and straight road DragBikeMike could set a new record.....one that likely would be the terminal velocity for a Savage.  There are likely a few other engines that have more power than mine, as I only have a 95mm Wiseco Pop Top piston with 9.2:1 compression.  My bike is light and a perhaps a bit slimmer than a stock Savage - but my big headlight is not helping achieve a LSR.

My GPS speedo records as well.....and that is the only way I knew how fast I went.  The last thing I was going to do was look down at the speedo while hanging on!
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #67 - 02/06/24 at 12:42:45
 
All,

I have now got the collection of orifices caracterised relative to each other, so that I can take measurements that span several orifices.
At the moment I am using:
20-50
32-80
48-120
103-206
128-320
Below is a set of curves which are important to me. For one it shows the difference in flow through the exhaust depending on whether I suck or blow through the port. It flows better the way it is intended to.It also shows the relationship Inlet/exhaust, which is also an important parameter in a well balanced engine.
I am happy that I built this bench, because I am starting to know things, instead of just guessing.
I have been promised the calibrated orifice tomorrow, so very exciting to see how far off these curves are, not that it matters since It is the relative progressing numbers that matter.
Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #68 - 02/08/24 at 00:20:16
 
Nice graph Finn.  If I understand correctly, when you "suck through" the exhaust port, you are reversing flow.  You pull air from the combustion chamber side of the port.  Do I have that correct?

I've never tried that.  I use an adapter on the outlet of the head and connect three shop vacs.  It keeps flow moving in the normal direction, but I don't know if it causes the bench to behave different from how it behaves if you blow through.  When I tried to blow through the port, my jalopy bench could not develop sufficient test pressure.  I figure flow is flow regardless of how you make it happen, so as long as the flow goes across the orifice plate, the inclined manometer reading should be the same.  Do you have any comments on that?

I'm surprised that you realized better flow when the air was moving in the normal direction (blow through).  I intuitively thought that reverse flow would be better due to the shape of the valves.  Normal flow direction forces air against the flat face of the valve while reverse flow runs across the curved portions of the valve.  You got some interesting results.  Thanks for sharing.

This is the setup I use.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #69 - 02/08/24 at 07:46:36
 
All good fun.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #70 - 02/08/24 at 13:06:16
 
Finn, your tests at 28" show a stock flow bias of 63% (132/208).  My tests at 15" showed a stock flow bias of 75% (124/166).  Any chance you could check your exhaust at 15" so we could see what effect that has on the flow bias.  You tested the intake at 15" but not the exhaust.

Recently, I have not been able to replicate my flow numbers on the exhaust port.  Whether stock or enlarged, I could not achieve flow numbers as high as I achieved when I first started testing.  

A few months ago, I worked a head for a guy.  The baseline stock exh only flowed 102 cfm, and with a 1.79" exhaust I could only achieve 130 cfm.  I checked and double checked everything to no avail.  Port geometry was identical to my test mule, but I couldn't achieve the 172 cfm I originally saw on the test mule (and my stage III head).  To cross check, I threw the test mule on the bench and same thing, only was able to flow about 130 cfm.  I never figured out why.  I'm getting old and probably missing something.  Maybe I forgot to install the spark plug.
Any ideas?

Your stock 63% flow bias seems awfully low.  As I mentioned, my original tests on the stock head showed about 75%.  My stage II flowed 147/195 for a 75% flow bias.  The stage III with 34mm intakes and 1.79" exh port flowed 172/192 for a 90% flow bias (probably too high).  The stage IV with 35mm intakes and 1.79" exhaust will probably flow 172/201 for a 85% flow bias (assuming I can figure out why my exhaust numbers are off).

What sort of flow bias are you aiming for?
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #71 - 02/09/24 at 02:38:13
 
Mike,

Yes, when I say "blow" I mean flow in the direction the engine produces during normal operation. I was myself puzzeled by the difference, but am happy I made the comparison, because lazy me wanted to avoid having to reconfigure bench from suck to blow, but now I understand I have to. I have no idea how this difference in flow vs. direction can happen.
I think you are right about how you apply the pressure differential across the port, either way should be fine.
I had the opportunity to compare my orifice plates to the flow through a Helgesen plate manufactured by a toolmaker guy with a lot of experience , and my gear tracks his within 2.5%, I may correct my plates ratings to match his exactly.
I calculated the diameters of my orifices using an Excell spreadsheet, and in this sheet there is a factor called "discharge coefficient" you can set it to whatever you want and this will change the size of the orifice. I set it to 0.62, others have used down to 0.58. Anyway, the resulting orifices show remarkable accuracy, and certainly good to go for comparing progress in the porting process. When we try to compare from your bench to mine, that is when the problems arise, because none of them are presicely spot on.
I really have no idea which port bias to go for, I am shooting for what the valve size/port efficiency dictates. Basically, I will take what I can get.

As promised, here are the curves taken this morning, comparing 15" to 28". I am satisfied that the 1.366 conversion factor between 15" and 28" has been demonstrated. The port pretty much obstructs any further increase in flow from 0.25" valve lift, and up, but this ought to change when I start to open up the port.

Cheers, Finn Hammer


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« Last Edit: 02/09/24 at 04:10:47 by FinnHammer »  

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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #72 - 02/09/24 at 08:39:14
 
Ok, enough calibrating orifices, time to rough out the exhaust port.

Instant gratification!

I started by opening up the pathetic exit of the port, to a generous "D" of 1.65" diametre. this dia. was blended into the port as good as I could do.
I did no attempt to produce any particularly smooth surface yet, just roughed it out.

I also took the blunt off the left hand valve side of the dividing wall, making the port rounder as it exits the bowl of that valve.
Back on the bench I recorded an 13% increase in flow.

I am not too concerned about the port volume, there is plenty pressure to blow gasses through, it is a short distance, and I prefer to think the exhaust as a system reaching a long way out the header.

Next restriction to adress is around the valve guide bosses, where I dug down beside the bosses, and this gives a better opening just at the bowl/port transition.
This produced an increase alltogether of 27% over the stock head.
I am showing pictures which reveal that no particular surface finish, or smooth surface geometry is needed to achieve these results, it is going to be exiting to see what follows, when I work the surfaces to a presentable finish.

The material thickness between the tip of the "Dipsey.doodle" and the valve springs seats is 7mm, or 9/32" I am pondering the removal of some of it, but risky I guess: heat could get to the valve springs this way much easier.

Anyway, a couple of hours work, and 27% better flow, not a bad thing. And now the port bias is 83%

Todays work results show me that the effort invested in building this bench has been well spent. It is really pretty cool to be able to measure and record the progress of working that port.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #73 - 02/09/24 at 08:48:29
 
Here is the latest graph.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #74 - 02/09/24 at 10:18:04
 
Thanks Finn.  Looks like the test pressure makes a big difference in flow bias, probably due to the poor design of the exhaust port.  Its performance declines as the differential goes up, whereas the intake can handle the increase in differential.

I find it interesting that your data on the stock port at 15" is very close to my most recent testing on the exhaust port (my mysterious reduced flow dilema).  You got around 96 cfm, I got around 102 cfm.  I'd say that's pretty close considering how crude my bench is compared to yours.  

You opened your port up to 1.65" and realized a gain of about 27%.  I opened the port up to 1.79" and realized a gain of about 27%.  Probably no point in going past 1.65".  Even with my monster header pipe, 1.65" might be better as it will preserve a small dam around the perimeter to mitigate reverse flow.

We are both seeing the stock exhaust flow go flat right around 250" lift.  What I find disheartening about that is it also goes flat at .250" after the port has been opened up, regardless of test pressure.  So, the flow is improved a lot, but the port is so torturous that it refuses to cooperate.  It's lookin like that's all we're gonna get out of her.  I don't recall if I tried opening up the throats on the exhaust seats.  I'll have to revisit that.
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