SuzukiSavage.com - 2018 OIL WAR

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Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Reply #15 - 05/22/18 at 09:59:12

I think I’m with Ruttly on the cause of Dave’s cam wear. We generally assume that all wear is the result of the oil film breaking down causing surface to surface contact and that is the most frequent reason but there are other causes.
Dave’s cam looks like a case of fatique spalling, a specific type that Timken refers to as point surface origin. Here is an excerpt from a Timken bulletin referring to bearings but the cam and follower are very similar to a bearing race.

“Point Surface Origin (PSO) Spalling
Very high and localized stress generates this type of damage mode. The spalling damage is typically from nicks, dents, debris, etching and hard-particle contamination in the bearing. It’s the most common type of spalling damage, and it often appears as arrowhead-shaped spalls, propagating in the direction of rotation.”

Looking at Dave's photograph the arrowhead shaped spall area can be clearly seen on the cam follower. So in this case the lubrication may have had nothing to do with the damage.

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DragBikeMike Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 4166 Honolulu	Re: 2018 OIL WAR Reply #16 - 05/22/18 at 13:36:44 I'm not so sure the "cam and follower are very similar to a bearing race". Is the Timken guidance pertaining to a rolling contact bearing? The cam and follower are sliding contact and depend on an oil wedge.
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Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Reply #17 - 05/22/18 at 19:11:29

As we all know Timken makes roller bearings but the essential point here is the mode of failure which is a common one to hardened surfaces. This failure mode is found on both rolling and sliding lubricated surfaces. I cut and pasted the Timken description only because they made a clear reference to the propagation of spalling taking an “arrow head” pattern and the arrow head pattern is very prominent in the photograph Dave posted.
Also, the fact that the pattern is localized and is not across the entire surface is indicative of a point source for the initial damage. A break down of the oil film would have produced more generalized damage.

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DragBikeMike

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Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Reply #18 - 05/23/18 at 02:17:32

That was a great explanation Engineer. So you think maybe a very hard fragment got into the loaded surfaces, or possibly a little nick during handling or assembly. Once the blemish was established the failure propagated outward in the direction of rotation. You are certainly right about the shape. It's clearly an arrow head and it does propagate in the direction of rotation (at least on the rocker pad). Your point about a film breakdown is also excellent. If it was a film breakdown, I would expect to see something more on the line of scoring across the full width of the contact area. Do I have that correct?

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Papa Bear Senior Member Offline Posts: 476 Canada ... near the Motor City Gender:	Re: 2018 OIL WAR Reply #19 - 05/23/18 at 05:35:07 "Flintstone" valve train design. The S40 rocker assy. looks like it was created by a blacksmith apprentice about 1904 using discarded bent railroad spikes
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engineer Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 872 Gender:	Re: 2018 OIL WAR Reply #20 - 05/23/18 at 08:41:51 Mike, that’s right. I think Dave’s rebuild and lubrication was fine and the damage to his cam and follower were just plain bad luck, a tiny piece of grit or a surface defect.
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GT61 TURBO ZX14 Full Member Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 230 Minnesota Gender:	Re: 2018 OIL WAR Reply #21 - 05/23/18 at 09:28:58 Fill the cam box with this on start up and make sure you have motu 7100 in the motor for oil I am running the 10w60
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GT61 TURBO ZX14 Full Member Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 230 Minnesota Gender:	Re: 2018 OIL WAR Reply #22 - 05/23/18 at 09:30:04 Best oil on the market
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Serowbot YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline OK.... so what's the speed of dark? Posts: 28367 Tucson Az Gender:	Re: 2018 OIL WAR Reply #23 - 05/23/18 at 09:41:58 That oil is a monetary mismatch for my bike...
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Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Reply #24 - 05/23/18 at 09:48:46

GT61 TURBO ZX14 wrote on 05/23/18 at 09:28:58:

Fill the cam box with this on start up and make sure you have motu 7100 in the motor for oil I am running the 10w60

Lucas assembly lube "Contains ZINC, MOLY and Other High Pressure Additives" according to their advertising. We know that Moly is not compatible with a wet clutch......I don't know about their other "High Pressure Additives". While a small amount applied to the bearing surfaces will likely not hurt anything - I am not sure that filling up the well under the cam with it is safe for your clutch.....perhaps that is contributing a bit to your clutch slipping.

I am not sure why you want 10W-60.....thick oil won't help your clutch get traction (forum members have reported that a cold engine and thick oil makes their clutch slip worse than it does when warmed up), or allow your engine to gain any speed. The manual and moderators suggest that 10W-40 works well. Using a "too thick" oil may actually be reducing the oil flow to the cam and rockers.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: 2018 OIL WAR Reply #25 - 05/23/18 at 10:29:55 If it's a war, know your enemy https://www.stle.org/Shared_Content/TLT_Articles/Lubrication_Fundamentals/Vis... https://www.stle.org/Shared_Content/TLT_Articles/Lubrication_Fundamentals/Vis...
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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28755 L.A. California Gender:	Re: 2018 OIL WAR Reply #26 - 05/23/18 at 10:51:01 Can't recommend 10w-50 either... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1283117891/0
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Serowbot YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline OK.... so what's the speed of dark? Posts: 28367 Tucson Az Gender:	Re: 2018 OIL WAR Reply #27 - 05/23/18 at 14:08:55 This war is going well for me... I'm doggedly sticking to Rotella 10w-40... Not out of knowledge,... just desperate faith...
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GT61 TURBO ZX14

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Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Reply #28 - 05/23/18 at 17:51:29

Dave wrote on 05/23/18 at 09:48:46:

GT61 TURBO ZX14 wrote on 05/23/18 at 09:28:58:

Fill the cam box with this on start up and make sure you have motu 7100 in the motor for oil I am running the 10w60

Lucas assembly lube "Contains ZINC, MOLY and Other High Pressure Additives" according to their advertising. We know that Moly is not compatible with a wet clutch......I don't know about their other "High Pressure Additives". While a small amount applied to the bearing surfaces will likely not hurt anything - I am not sure that filling up the well under the cam with it is safe for your clutch.....perhaps that is contributing a bit to your clutch slipping.

I am not sure why you want 10W-60.....thick oil won't help your clutch get traction (forum members have reported that a cold engine and thick oil makes their clutch slip worse than it does when warmed up), or allow your engine to gain any speed. The manual and moderators suggest that 10W-40 works well. Using a "too thick" oil may actually be reducing the oil flow to the cam and rockers.

Again you're over-analyzing everything you're acting like we're going to a hundredweight oil 1060 is fine I run it in my everyday vehicles this oil has better additives and properties for the clutch and I don't know about you but I don't get on the motor started up and floor it I let it warm up for about 3 to 4 minutes by then the oils warm especially if it's warm outside so stop splitting hairs the rotilla cannot handle that and what it needs is a zinc additive since the Rotella does not have it anymore none of the roadkill is zinc additive that works just as good trustme me this oil is the best on the market and just to let you know I'm in my two other suzukisavage that are stock are running 20/50 motor oil 7100 I run 2050 and everything I have when it's summer time the only reason they run thin oil is to meet emissions in parasitic load so there's no point to run that than a oil once that's built Motors broken it's getting 20w50

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Dave

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Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Reply #29 - 05/23/18 at 18:25:28

GT61 TURBO ZX14 wrote on 05/23/18 at 17:51:29:

Again you're over-analyzing everything you're acting like we're going to a hundredweight oil 1060 is fine

I am allowed to over-analyze things......this is my oil war.

And.....my clutch doesn't slip. Wink

And I can't see any benefit in running an oil that is thicker than it needs to be. It is a proven fact that thicker oils create higher engine temperatures and reduced oil flow.

And the current formulations for Rotella have 1,200 ppm of ZDDP - which is plenty and we no longer recommend adding anything. When we did believe adding ZDDP was a good thing we never recommended bumping beyond 1,400 ppm, as long term wear can be increased when the ZDDP level is too high.

https://blog.amsoil.com/what-happens-if-i-use-the-wrong-weight-viscosity-of-oil/

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=3965

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« Last Edit: 05/24/18 at 03:29:19 by Dave »

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