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Message started by Dave on 05/21/18 at 05:22:43

Title: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Dave on 05/21/18 at 05:22:43

In the last few weeks I have been thinking/researching/Googling information about oils.....and I have learned/unlearned a few things that I thought I understood about oils. I still believe that the current Rotella T4 and Rotella T6 are good oils and are most likely everything you will ever need in your Savage - however I have been forced to rethink a few things as a result of this:

http://i68.tinypic.com/2zi93cm.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/beewix.jpg

Last week I took my Savage engine apart to put in a Verslagen head plug as the OEM style rubber plug had weeped some oil last year. I originally took this engine apart in 2012 and installed a Wiseco, Stage 2 cam Webcam's hardwelded rockers, and did some head work. The engine was taken completely apart and put together with assembly lube, and the cam was coated with the assembly lube that WebCam provides. Since the engine was completely apart the oil filter was new, and the entire oil system was dry, and if I remember correctly I used Brad Penn 10W-40 Vtwin oil as it has a high ZDDP rating and l added 1/2 oz. of Redline ZDDP for the break-in. When I added the oil I made sure I filled the little oil well under the cam with oil to provide lubrication when the engine was first started. At the first oil change I switched over to Rotella T. For the next 8,000 miles the bike has run well and I have not had any indication of the pitting that occurred on the exhaust lobe and rocker - the bottoms of the cam were not worn so the valve clearance checks showed everything was stable.

After looking at the cam/rocker and recent reading....it is my opinion that the spalling/pitting likely occurred very soon after the engine was first started. I have learned in the last week that a 30 weight racing oil is recommended for breaking in a cam and the piston/cylinder - and they all want to avoid using any synthetic oil. A straight weight racing oil has adequate ZDDP, low amounts of detergent, and no additives to create a "multi-viscosity" rating. (Additives to create a multi-viscosity oil take the place of lubricant in the oil.....and synthetic oils can actually provide too much protection and prevent the rings/cylinder from seating properly). This advice is not always easy to comply with - as most big box and modern auto stores no longer carry racing oils, and some of the modern racing oils have friction modifiers that should not be used with a wet clutch motorcycle engine).

I discovered that there are at least 2 "Break-In" oils that are save to use in the Savage engine, and I believe these should be used when you are breaking in a new cam or piston. I called PennGrade to confirm their Break-In oil was safe to use in a wet clutch, and I spoke with a senior technician who has been in the industry since the Kendall days. We had a good talk about oils that included discussions about ZDDP, 30 weight vs. multi viscosity, Synthetics, etc. He confirmed there are no friction modifiers in their Break-In oil, and that the low detergent and straight weight allows for very high shear protection....and that the 1,000 ppm of ZDDP is plenty for an oil that will only be used for the first 150 miles of use. He also confirmed that the BradPenn oil I used for my first cam break in was not a proper oil, as it does contain some synthetic properties and is multi viscosity and has a high detergent content - but would be an excellent oil to use once the cam is broken in.
https://www.jegs.com/i/Glockner-Oil/461/009-7120/10002/-1

Another break-in oil that appears to be suitable is the Amsoil:
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/racing/break-in-oil-(sae-30)/

Both of these oils may be hard to find and will have to be bought online, I got lucky and D&D Parts and Engine Service in Cincinnati carries PennGrade oils. I assembled the engine with the supplied WebCam lube on the camshaft and rockers, I poured the PennGrade oil into the top of the engine using the intake valve adjustment hole so that the oil well under the cam would be full of oil, and I left the spark plug out and rotated the engine briskly for about 50 revolutions to prime the oil system. Then I fired the bike up and went for a 50 mile ride. I have another 100 miles to ride before I dump the break in oil, then I will likely use the PennGrade V2 oil in 10W-40 until I switch back over to the Rotella.

I do believe the Rotella did a good job of protecting the pitted cam/rocker after the initial pitting occurred. The top of the cam lobe has some light wear evident in a pattern that matches the pitting on the damaged rocker - but there really isn't any evidence of excessive wear beyond the pitting.
The engine may have run properly for a very long time with this pitting........and I will continue to use (and recommend) Rotella for any Savage engine that is already broken in.

I have also learned that "adding" things to oils is really not recommend or necessary....or desirable. It is much better to buy the "proper" oil that can do the job, and I will no longer be adding ZDDP to any oil. The 1,200 ppm ZDDP levels in the current Rotella are enough, and I have learned that going over 1,400 ppm of ZDDP can cause camshaft spalling as it attacks the grain boundaries of the iron.

The one document that I found and I have not been fully able to comprehend, is this Test Data on Hi-Performance Hi Zinc oils. Not all the oils in the test are suitable for wet clutches and before you purchase one of these oils you need to confirm it does not have friction modifiers in them - but I was surprised to learn that Rotella at 72,022 psi is a pretty low rating when compared to some of the other oils that can have a rating up to 106,505 psi - however the document clearly states that a lot of this is a "reserve" capacity and may not be needed in a specific engine. (Experience has proven the Savage works very well with Rotella).
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33547

So the changes for me are:

1) Any new engine will be broken in with PennGrade or Amsoil break in oil.
2) Any new engine will have the engine oil system "primed" to fill the new filter and oil system prior to starting the engine, and the oil well on top of the cylinder will be filled with oil.
3) The "first" oil change after the break in will be a non-synthetic oil.
4) I will not be adding anything to my oils - if I am not satisfied with the oil I need to find a "better" oil.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/21/18 at 06:07:53

Any new engine will have the engine oil system "primed" to fill the new filter and oil system prior to starting the engine, and the oil well on top of the cylinder will be filled with oil.

Just pull the plug and push the button?

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Dave on 05/21/18 at 06:35:47

4D5254534E4978487840525E15270 wrote:

Any new engine will have the engine oil system "primed" to fill the new filter and oil system prior to starting the engine, and the oil well on top of the cylinder will be filled with oil.

One of the reasons I did not do that the first time, is the instructions that come with the cam specifically warns against turning the engine over with the starter. They want the engine to start immediately, and they don't want the engine rpm to drop below 2,000 rpm at any time or shut off for at least 30 minutes of operation.

This time I figured that the instructions are really related to the installation of cams for V8 engines, and the cam is not sitting in a bath of oil like the Savage cam is when the well under the cam is filled with oil. So....if you are turning the V8 engine over repeatedly - all you are doing is wiping the assembly lube off the cam.

Therefore........I felt that rotating the Savage engine to prime the oil system was not going to damage the new cam/rockers as they would be continually oiled by the new oil in the cam well.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by batman on 05/21/18 at 06:56:16

Did you pour oil in the cylinder to protect the rings when you where turning the motor to prime the oil passages and filter?

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Dave on 05/21/18 at 07:02:52

3F3C29303C3369655D0 wrote:

Did you pour oil in the cylinder to protect the rings when you where turning the motor to prime the oil passages and filter?

I used Sta-Bil fogging oil in the cylinder for this event.

In the initial build in 2012 the piston/rings/cylinder were all lubed with motor oil when the engine was assembled.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by batman on 05/21/18 at 08:27:30

Dave , I hadn't really thought for a second, you'd forget to lube the piston and rings, but thought I'd mention it for other readers.I think your move to use the fogging oil to be the better option.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Dave on 05/21/18 at 08:43:29

I will most likely make a thread to put in the Technical Section with recommended methods of getting an engine back into service that has been taken apart....especially if new piston/rings/cylinder or cam have been installed. Part of that will be the "new to me" use of a dedicated break in oil - which not so long ago wasn't a necessity as you could buy 30 weight non-detergent oil that had adequate ZDDP at any auto parts store.

The also "new to me" belief is that adding things to modern oil really isn't a good idea. Maybe if you are firing up some old vintage engine that is all carboned up and has stuck rings "Marvel Mystery Oil" or "Kroil" will help get things loosened up - but adding chemicals to modern oils in a healthy engine is not something I will do in the future. I should trust that the folks at Rotella, PennGrade, Klotz, Amsoil, Lucas, etc. all know what they are doing, and I need to choose one of their products that is best suited to the engine it is going in (but not because the EPA says it is good). In the link I listed for the for the oil test they added ZDDP plus to several oils, and in some oils it reduced the load carrying ability of the base oil by as much as 38%!

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Ruttly on 05/21/18 at 10:01:09

Dave , It's looks to me like a hard face issue in pic 1 but in pic 2 like something may have passed in between. Maybe not oil issue. Maybe some better pics for us to see.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Ruttly on 05/21/18 at 10:12:53

Webcam , I better check mine , I had mine done too ! I seriously doubt it's a oil issue and I know your not one to hold it at WOT , well for very long anyways unlike me. Find any crap in the filter ?

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Dave on 05/21/18 at 10:41:54

I did some reading about cams, and the chances of a manufacturing/material defect are very/very low. Evidently the cam is a very uniform iron material, and even the hardwelded cams are pretty easy for folks like WebCam to do correctly. The surface hardening process I saw was induction treating on an automated machine.....it looked pretty foolproof. They stated that most failures of cams are related to improper installation, improper break in - or some other issue like coil bind or the wrong oil or failed lubrication.

The somewhat weird part of this pitting is the damage is on the backside of the cam lobe where the rocker is beginning to close the valve, it would not be loaded as strongly as the side where the valve is being lifted. (Most of the cam failures i have seen occurred on top of the lobe where the curve is the sharpest and the surface area between the cam/rocker is the smallest.

I really don't think there is any reason for folks with WebCams to get worried - I believe their product is very durable as they have been making cams for a very, very long time and they know what they are doing. My engine was not doing anything weird and sounded fine, and I do believe the Rotella was doing a good job of lubing up the damaged parts and keeping it from getting any worse.

It is really hard for me to get decent pictures of this with the camera in my phone - it just won't stay focused when I try and get close enough to get detail.....and the shiny surface makes it really hard to photograph.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by DragBikeMike on 05/22/18 at 00:46:18

This is an excellent report. I certainly appreciate how much effort and research Dave put into it. Loads of good info, and having the links really makes the report user friendly.

I worked as a professional mechanic for a few years and have seen more than my share of "factory repair manuals". I've also attended factory training at the General Motors Training Center and the American Honda Training Center. I don't recall ever seeing literature in factory manuals or being given instruction by their professional trainers on cam break-in procedures. That was like back in the 1970s so maybe things have changed. Has anyone seen any OEM guidance or had any OEM instruction on cam break-in?

The only professional guidance I have ever encountered on cam break-in was provided by aftermarket cam shaft manufacturers (Crane, Isky, Crower, etc.). I have seen cam break-in guidance in hop-up books and Hotrod periodicals.

Seems to me like the factories aren't too concerned about breaking in their cams. That may be due to the fact that stock camshafts and valve trains operate under far less demanding conditions than aftermarket performance components.

All the cam break-in guidance I have encountered seems to pertain to flat tappet cams. Dave, in your conversations with Webb Cam and the petroleum technical advisers, was the topic of flat tappet cams versus the type of cam we utilize ever breached? Flat tappet cams rotate the lifters in addition to moving the lifter up & down. The bottom of the lifter has a large radius ground into it (so large as to be almost imperceptible) and the lobe is offset from the centerline of the lifter. This results in lifter rotation. It's my understanding that one of the key reasons for the elaborate cam break-in is to prevent the large radius on the bottom of the lifter from being upset. Our cam/cam follower relationship doesn't have that feature to worry about. I'm not disputing the info you provided in this post, just curious. Why is it that only the aftermarket performance product manufacturers seem to be worried about cam break-in?

I would be surprised to learn that the car and motorcycle OEMs are running up each engine on a test stand for 30 minutes at 2000 rpm. We sure never did anything like that when we did dealer prep on the new cars and motorcycles at the dealerships where I worked.

What am I missing here?

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by DragBikeMike on 05/22/18 at 01:56:26

Regarding the cam failure, I mentioned in my post on the DR650 cam that I couldn't come up with a good way to inspect the cam for pitting and wear. After reading this post that centers around Dave's cam failure, I revisited the cam visual inspection problem. I was able to do a thorough visual inspection using a flexible camera. You can find these cameras in WalMart, Costco and all sorts of retail outlets. I used the camera feature through the exhaust valve cover. Depending on valve position you have to snake the camera around the right side of the rocker arm or through the "Y" and under the rocker arm. From the intake side, you have to remove the seat, fuel tank and relay just above the carb, then pull out the float bowl vents and run the flexible camera down from the top. I didn't use the camera feature from the intake side, I just used it as a flexible light. It is possible to do a pretty good inspection. You can inspect both lobes from both sides (intake side and exhaust side). I rotated the engine through two revolutions while viewing through the exhaust side and two revolutions while viewing from the intake side. In my opinion, the intake side provides a better view. There was no evidence of pitting.

This is what the camera kooks like.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by DragBikeMike on 05/22/18 at 01:57:26

Here's the relay you have to pull out of the way.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by DragBikeMike on 05/22/18 at 02:05:29

Here is a shot of the view. I know it doesn't look like much of a view but when you get your eyes down at frame level, you can see the lobes pretty good. The flex camera provides just the right amount of light.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Dave on 05/22/18 at 04:40:30

DragBikeMike:

That motorcycle of yours looks really clean - the back of the cylinder head looks like you could eat off it! :)

I believe that most new cars/trucks have been run long enough on the assembly line that the cam is already past the critical stage by the time the car is delivered to the dealer. I also remember discussions about how the engine had "break in oil" from the factory....I no longer hear that discussion anymore. I was also surprised how builders don't want synthetic oil in the engine during the first 150 miles - and yet a lot of new cars are reportedly delivered with synthetic oil when new (or do they really have a dino break in oil installed?).

I may have done something wrong or gotten a bad cam/rocker, and I could be chasing a demon that doesn't exist.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by engineer on 05/22/18 at 09:59:12

I think I’m with Ruttly on the cause of Dave’s cam wear. We generally assume that all wear is the result of the oil film breaking down causing surface to surface contact and that is the most frequent reason but there are other causes.
Dave’s cam looks like a case of fatique spalling, a specific type that Timken refers to as point surface origin. Here is an excerpt from a Timken bulletin referring to bearings but the cam and follower are very similar to a bearing race.

“Point Surface Origin (PSO) Spalling
Very high and localized stress generates this type of damage mode. The spalling damage is typically from nicks, dents, debris, etching and hard-particle contamination in the bearing. It’s the most common type of spalling damage, and it often appears as arrowhead-shaped spalls, propagating in the direction of rotation.”

Looking at Dave's photograph the arrowhead shaped spall area can be clearly seen on the cam follower. So in this case the lubrication may have had nothing to do with the damage.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by DragBikeMike on 05/22/18 at 13:36:44

I'm not so sure the "cam and follower are very similar to a bearing race". Is the Timken guidance pertaining to a rolling contact bearing? The cam and follower are sliding contact and depend on an oil wedge.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by engineer on 05/22/18 at 19:11:29

As we all know Timken makes roller bearings but the essential point here is the mode of failure which is a common one to hardened surfaces. This failure mode is found on both rolling and sliding lubricated surfaces. I cut and pasted the Timken description only because they made a clear reference to the propagation of spalling taking an “arrow head” pattern and the arrow head pattern is very prominent in the photograph Dave posted.
Also, the fact that the pattern is localized and is not across the entire surface is indicative of a point source for the initial damage. A break down of the oil film would have produced more generalized damage.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by DragBikeMike on 05/23/18 at 02:17:32

That was a great explanation Engineer. So you think maybe a very hard fragment got into the loaded surfaces, or possibly a little nick during handling or assembly. Once the blemish was established the failure propagated outward in the direction of rotation. You are certainly right about the shape. It's clearly an arrow head and it does propagate in the direction of rotation (at least on the rocker pad). Your point about a film breakdown is also excellent. If it was a film breakdown, I would expect to see something more on the line of scoring across the full width of the contact area. Do I have that correct?

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Papa Bear on 05/23/18 at 05:35:07

"Flintstone" valve train design. ;)

The S40 rocker assy. looks like it was created by a blacksmith apprentice about 1904 using discarded bent railroad spikes :P

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by engineer on 05/23/18 at 08:41:51

Mike, that’s right. I think Dave’s rebuild and lubrication was fine and the damage to his cam and follower were just plain bad luck, a tiny piece of grit or a surface defect.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 05/23/18 at 09:28:58

Fill the cam box with this on start up and make sure you have motu 7100 in the motor for oil I am running the 10w60

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 05/23/18 at 09:30:04

Best oil on the market

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Serowbot on 05/23/18 at 09:41:58

That oil is a monetary mismatch for my bike... :-?

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Dave on 05/23/18 at 09:48:46

012D3E271B0B2D39382425293E4C0 wrote:

Fill the cam box with this on start up and make sure you have motu 7100 in the motor for oil I am running the 10w60

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/23/18 at 10:29:55

If it's a war, know your enemy

https://www.stle.org/Shared_Content/TLT_Articles/Lubrication_Fundamentals/Viscosity_The_Resistance_to_Flow.aspx?WebsiteKey=d30229f1-d53b-48d7-99ae-d0ce9fea621d

https://www.stle.org/Shared_Content/TLT_Articles/Lubrication_Fundamentals/Viscosity_The_Resistance_to_Flow.aspx?WebsiteKey=d30229f1-d53b-48d7-99ae-d0ce9fea621d

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by verslagen1 on 05/23/18 at 10:51:01

Can't recommend 10w-50 either...
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1283117891/0

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Serowbot on 05/23/18 at 14:08:55

This war is going well for me... I'm doggedly sticking to Rotella 10w-40...
Not out of knowledge,... just desperate faith...

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 05/23/18 at 17:51:29

19222F3829253E38232B26394A0 wrote:

[quote author=012D3E271B0B2D39382425293E4C0 link=1526905363/15#21 date=1527092938]Fill the cam box with this on start up and make sure you have motu 7100 in the motor for oil I am running the 10w60

Lucas assembly lube "Contains ZINC, MOLY and Other High Pressure Additives" according to their advertising. We know that Moly is not compatible with a wet clutch......I don't know about their other "High Pressure Additives". While a small amount applied to the bearing surfaces will likely not hurt anything - I am not sure that filling up the well under the cam with it is safe for your clutch.....perhaps that is contributing a bit to your clutch slipping.

I am not sure why you want 10W-60.....thick oil won't help your clutch get traction (forum members have reported that a cold engine and thick oil makes their clutch slip worse than it does when warmed up), or allow your engine to gain any speed. The manual and moderators suggest that 10W-40 works well. Using a "too thick" oil may actually be reducing the oil flow to the cam and rockers.[/quote]

Again you're over-analyzing everything you're acting like we're going to a hundredweight oil 1060 is fine I run it in my everyday vehicles this oil has better additives and properties for the clutch and I don't know about you but I don't get on the motor started up and floor it I let it warm up for about 3 to 4 minutes by then the oils warm especially if it's warm outside so stop splitting hairs the rotilla cannot handle that and what it needs is a zinc additive since the Rotella does not have it anymore none of the roadkill is zinc additive that works just as good trustme me this oil is the best on the market and just to let you know I'm in my two other suzukisavage that are stock are running 20/50 motor oil 7100 I run 2050 and everything I have when it's summer time the only reason they run thin oil is to meet emissions in parasitic load so there's no point to run that than a oil once that's built Motors broken it's getting 20w50

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Dave on 05/23/18 at 18:25:28

54786B724E5E786C6D71707C6B190 wrote:

Again you're over-analyzing everything you're acting like we're going to a hundredweight oil 1060 is fine

I am allowed to over-analyze things......this is my oil war.

And.....my clutch doesn't slip. ;)

And I can't see any benefit in running an oil that is thicker than it needs to be. It is a proven fact that thicker oils create higher engine temperatures and reduced oil flow.

And the current formulations for Rotella have 1,200 ppm of ZDDP - which is plenty and we no longer recommend adding anything. When we did believe adding ZDDP was a good thing we never recommended bumping beyond 1,400 ppm, as long term wear can be increased when the ZDDP level is too high.

https://blog.amsoil.com/what-happens-if-i-use-the-wrong-weight-viscosity-of-oil/

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=3965

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 05/24/18 at 04:48:36

If you can understand what they're trying to get at is there trying to go for emissions and less parasitic load the tolerances are darn near the same as they were 20 years ago on the bearings all they're trying to do is get emissions now and how do you do that by putting thinner oil in there for Less parasitic load so the motor easily pass emissions tests I guarantee you my ZX-14 as turbo has tighter tolerances than this Suzuki Savage ls650 and I run 20w50 weight in that because of the number one enemy to Motors is heat and what happens if you don't have a good thin film between the bearing and the crank it'll spinner touch and then it takes chunks out grooves on hotspots in the bearings remember the Suzuki Savage is an old-school motor that's are cooled

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Dave on 05/24/18 at 05:10:52

735F4C5569795F4B4A56575B4C3E0 wrote:

You seem to be confusing "efficiency" with "emissions". A lower viscosity can help reduce drag and provide more efficiency.......I don't see how it has any affect on emissions.

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that oils can be too thin - or too thick for an engine, and both can have a negative affect. Verslagen has proven that 20W-50 results in higher operating temperatures in the Savage.

If you are open to learning and willing to accept reality - you can do an internet search and discover that you really should be using the oil viscosity that your engine was designed to operate with...running a 0W-60 oil in your car designed for 5W-20 is not doing you any good. (Contact your Motul folks and see what they recommend you use). When an oil is thick it may not be pumped in sufficient volume to lubricate and protect the engine.

Amsoil also states the following on their webpage:
https://blog.amsoil.com/what-does-viscosity-mean-and-how-does-it-affect-your-engine/

How does viscosity affect engine protection?

So what does this all mean to protecting your engine? Put simply, viscosity is the most important property of a lubricant. How lubricant viscosity reacts to changes in temperature, pressure or speed determines how well the oil protects your vehicle.

Lubricants with too low of a viscosity for your engine may cause:
Increased metal-to-metal contact
Increased friction and wear
Increased oil consumption
Leaking seals

Lubricants with too high of a viscosity could also hurt your engine by causing:
Increased fluid friction
Increased operating temperatures
Poor cold-temperature starting
Reduced energy efficiency

Suzuki does allow the use of 20W-50 when temperatures are above 14 degrees F.....I really can't imagine trying to get my Savage started with oil that thick on a cold winter morning. The opinion of the senior members of this forum is that you should be using 10W-40 or 15W-40 "dino" oils - or 5W-40 in synthetic. Rotella T4 and synthetic T6 do a good job and are affordable and are safe for wet clutches in their current formulation.

Other oils can work as well and perhaps better - few oils can be as easy to find locally or as cheaply, and other oils can be considerably more expensive. It is impossible for us volunteers to constantly monitor the changing formulations and suitability of all the available oils. Your Motul most likely is a very good oil as it is an Esther based synthetic......I probably can find it on a store shelf within 100 miles of where I live.

http://i67.tinypic.com/11tssvc.png

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Papa Bear on 05/24/18 at 05:31:35

I don't need 10W ... My S40 is a motorcycle, not a snow-thrower 8-)

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Dave on 05/24/18 at 05:57:20

161718191A1B1C1D1E2F0 wrote:

I don't need 10W ... My S40 is a motorcycle, not a snow-thrower 8-)

Yep...me too. When it is 55 degrees my bike stays in the garage - and I only ride in that temperature when I know it is going to be warmer in an hour or two.

I likely could use a straight weight oil for the limited temperature range that I ride in.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 05/24/18 at 07:21:38

774C4156474B50564D454857240 wrote:

[quote author=735F4C5569795F4B4A56575B4C3E0 link=1526905363/30#30 date=1527162516]If you can understand what they're trying to get at is there trying to go for emissions and less parasitic load the tolerances are darn near the same as they were 20 years ago on the bearings all they're trying to do is get emissions now and how do you do that by putting thinner oil in there for Less parasitic load so the motor easily pass emissions tests I guarantee you my ZX-14 as turbo has tighter tolerances than this Suzuki Savage ls650 and I run 20w50 weight in that because of the number one enemy to Motors is heat and what happens if you don't have a good thin film between the bearing and the crank it'll spinner touch and then it takes chunks out grooves on hotspots in the bearings remember the Suzuki Savage is an old-school motor that's are cooled

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by engineer on 05/24/18 at 07:34:51

GT61 Turbo, I run the Motul 4T synthetic (or an equivalent depending on what I can find) in my Moto Guzzi because the manufacturer now recommends it but I use Rotella T3 in my Savage. The Guzzi has a dry clutch and separate transmission so it is setup like a car, a very different situation than is seen in most motorcycles with integral clutch and transmission. I am thinking about switching to Rotella T4 for the Savage after I use up my supply of T3.
It's good to see an old fashioned "oil war", it seems like years since we last had one!

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by hotrod on 05/24/18 at 08:58:59

I have never seen a engine fail, or show signs of excessive wear , due to the brand or weight of the oil. Only the lack of oil have I seen problems.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by kojones on 05/24/18 at 09:01:33

I'm running synthetic 10W-40 mc oil in the Savage, but it has SF/SG API rating so it should contain enough ZDDP. No slipping clutch.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by hotrod on 05/24/18 at 09:41:36

Much of it is mental. We all feel good when we change our oil. Sometimes we even think the engine runs better, although I think that might be impossible.

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by Ruttly on 05/24/18 at 15:03:06

5D747878706724150 wrote:

Much of it is mental. We all feel good when we change our oil. Sometimes we even think the engine runs better, although I think that might be impossible.

No it's just returning the love it got when you changed the oil. Trust me it's as alive as you are !;D

Title: Re: 2018 OIL WAR
Post by batman on 05/24/18 at 18:38:35

Papa bear,"I don't need 10w it's a motorcycle not a snow-thrower" Well yes you do! do you think you might be better off running a straight 40 weight oil? the answer to that question is NO! 90% of wear occurs at starting, On a 70F degree morning your oil is also 70F yet the normal operating temperature is a least 270F.( motor oils are rated at 100C= 212F) A 10w 40 oil gives some flow/ protection until the oil reaches 270 and 40 weight ,thereby decreasing wear at cold startup. A 5w-40 synthetic gives more protection and less wear because it comes to temperature faster than a dino based oil. A straight 40 weight oil at 70F is molasses ! You'd have very high pressure but very little flow through the oil passages, and little protection for the moving parts.