In the last few weeks I have been thinking/researching/Googling information about oils.....and I have learned/unlearned a few things that I thought I understood about oils.  I still believe that the current Rotella T4 and Rotella T6 are good oils and are most likely everything you will ever need in your Savage - however I have been forced to rethink a few things as a result of this:





Last week I took my Savage engine apart to put in a Verslagen head plug as the OEM style rubber plug had weeped some oil last year.  I originally took this engine apart in 2012 and installed a Wiseco, Stage 2 cam Webcam's hardwelded rockers, and did some head work.  The engine was taken completely apart and put together with assembly lube, and the cam was coated with the assembly lube that WebCam provides.  Since the engine was completely apart the oil filter was new, and the entire oil system was dry, and if I remember correctly I used Brad Penn 10W-40 Vtwin oil as it has a high ZDDP rating and l added 1/2 oz. of Redline ZDDP for the break-in.  When I added the oil I made sure I filled the little oil well under the cam with oil to provide lubrication when the engine was first started.  At the first oil change I switched over to Rotella T.  For the next 8,000 miles the bike has run well and I have not had any indication of the pitting that occurred on the exhaust lobe and rocker - the bottoms of the cam were not worn so the valve clearance checks showed everything was stable.

After looking at the cam/rocker and recent reading....it is my opinion that the spalling/pitting likely occurred very soon after the engine was first started.  I have learned in the last week that a 30 weight racing oil is recommended for breaking in a cam and the piston/cylinder - and they all want to avoid using any synthetic oil.  A straight weight racing oil has adequate ZDDP, low amounts of detergent, and no additives to create a "multi-viscosity" rating.  (Additives to create a multi-viscosity oil take the place of lubricant in the oil.....and synthetic oils can actually provide too much protection and prevent the rings/cylinder from seating properly).  This advice is not always easy to comply with - as most big box and modern auto stores no longer carry racing oils, and some of the modern racing oils have friction modifiers that should not be used with a wet clutch motorcycle engine).

I discovered that there are at least 2 "Break-In" oils that are save to use in the Savage engine, and I believe these should be used when you are breaking in a new cam or piston.  I called PennGrade to confirm their Break-In oil was safe to use in a wet clutch, and I spoke with a senior technician who has been in the industry since the Kendall days.  We had a good talk about oils that included discussions about ZDDP, 30 weight vs. multi viscosity, Synthetics, etc.  He confirmed there are no friction modifiers in their Break-In oil, and that the low detergent and straight weight allows for very high shear protection....and that the 1,000 ppm of ZDDP is plenty for an oil that will only be used for the first 150 miles of use.  He also confirmed that the BradPenn oil I used for my first cam break in was not a proper oil, as it does contain some synthetic properties and is multi viscosity and has a high detergent content - but would be an excellent oil to use once the cam is broken in.
 https://www.jegs.com/i/Glockner-Oil/461/009-7120/10002/-1

Another break-in oil that appears to be suitable is the Amsoil:
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/racing/break-in-oil-(sae-30)/

Both of these oils may be hard to find and will have to be bought online, I got lucky and D&D Parts and Engine Service in Cincinnati carries PennGrade oils.  I assembled the engine with the supplied WebCam lube on the camshaft and rockers, I poured the PennGrade oil into the top of the engine using the intake valve adjustment hole so that the oil well under the cam would be full of oil, and I left the spark plug out and rotated the engine briskly for about 50 revolutions to prime the oil system.  Then I fired the bike up and went for a 50 mile ride.  I have another 100 miles to ride before I dump the break in oil, then I will likely use the PennGrade V2 oil in 10W-40 until I switch back over to the Rotella.

I do believe the Rotella did a good job of protecting the pitted cam/rocker after the initial pitting occurred.  The top of the cam lobe has some light wear evident in a pattern that matches the pitting on the damaged rocker - but there really isn't any evidence of excessive wear beyond the pitting.
The engine may have run properly for a very long time with this pitting........and I will continue to use (and recommend) Rotella for any Savage engine that is already broken in.

I have also learned that "adding" things to oils is really not recommend or necessary....or desirable.  It is much better to buy the "proper" oil that can do the job, and I will no longer be adding ZDDP to any oil.  The 1,200 ppm ZDDP levels in the current Rotella are enough, and I have learned that going over 1,400 ppm of ZDDP can cause camshaft spalling as it attacks the grain boundaries of the iron.

The one document that I found and I have not been fully able to comprehend, is this Test Data on Hi-Performance Hi Zinc oils.  Not all the oils in the test are suitable for wet clutches and before you purchase one of these oils you need to confirm it does not have friction modifiers in them - but I was surprised to learn that Rotella at 72,022 psi is a pretty low rating when compared to some of the other oils that can have a rating up to 106,505 psi - however the document clearly states that a lot of this is a "reserve" capacity and may not be needed in a specific engine.  (Experience has proven the Savage works very well with Rotella).
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33547

So the changes for me are:

1)  Any new engine will be broken in with PennGrade or Amsoil break in oil.
2)  Any new engine will have the engine oil system "primed" to fill the new filter and oil system prior to starting the engine, and the oil well on top of the cylinder will be filled with oil.
3)  The "first" oil change after the break in will be a non-synthetic oil.
4)  I will not be adding anything to my oils - if I am not satisfied with the oil I need to find a "better" oil.
     

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 05/21/18 at 06:07:53:


One of the reasons I did not do that the first time, is the instructions that come with the cam specifically warns against turning the engine over with the starter.  They want the engine to start immediately, and they don't want the engine rpm to drop below 2,000 rpm at any time or shut off for at least 30 minutes of operation.  

This time I figured that the instructions are really related to the installation of cams for V8 engines, and the cam is not sitting in a bath of oil like the Savage cam is when the well under the cam is filled with oil.  So....if you are turning the V8 engine over repeatedly - all you are doing is wiping the assembly lube off the cam.

Therefore........I felt that rotating the Savage engine to prime the oil system was not going to damage the new cam/rockers as they would be continually oiled by the new oil in the cam well.    

batman wrote on 05/21/18 at 06:56:16:


I used Sta-Bil fogging oil in the cylinder for this event.

In the initial build in 2012 the piston/rings/cylinder were all lubed with motor oil when the engine was assembled.

I will most likely make a thread to put in the Technical Section with recommended methods of getting an engine back into service that has been taken apart....especially if new piston/rings/cylinder or cam have been installed.  Part of that will be the "new to me" use of a dedicated break in oil - which not so long ago wasn't a necessity as you could buy 30 weight non-detergent oil that had adequate ZDDP at any auto parts store.

The also "new to me" belief is that adding things to modern oil really isn't a good idea.  Maybe if you are firing up some old vintage engine that is all carboned up and has stuck rings "Marvel Mystery Oil" or "Kroil" will help get things loosened up - but adding chemicals to modern oils in a healthy engine is not something I will do in the future.  I should trust that the folks at Rotella, PennGrade, Klotz, Amsoil, Lucas, etc. all know what they are doing, and I need to choose one of their products that is best suited to the engine it is going in (but not because the EPA says it is good).  In the link I listed for the for the oil test they added ZDDP plus to several oils, and in some oils it reduced the load carrying ability of the base oil by as much as 38%!

Webcam , I better check mine , I had mine done too ! I seriously doubt it's a oil issue and I know your not one to hold it at WOT , well for very long anyways unlike me. Find any crap in the filter ?

This is an excellent report.  I certainly appreciate how much effort and research Dave put into it.  Loads of good info, and having the links really makes the report user friendly.

I worked as a professional mechanic for a few years and have seen more than my share of "factory repair manuals".  I've also attended factory training at the General Motors Training Center and the American Honda Training Center.  I don't recall ever seeing literature in factory manuals or being given instruction by their professional trainers on cam break-in procedures.  That was like back in the 1970s so maybe things have changed.  Has anyone seen any OEM guidance or had any OEM instruction on cam break-in?

The only professional guidance I have ever encountered on cam break-in was provided by aftermarket cam shaft manufacturers (Crane, Isky, Crower, etc.).  I have seen cam break-in guidance in hop-up books and Hotrod periodicals.

Seems to me like the factories aren't too concerned about breaking in their cams.  That may be due to the fact that stock camshafts and valve trains operate under far less demanding conditions than aftermarket performance components.

All the cam break-in guidance I have encountered seems to pertain to flat tappet cams.  Dave, in your conversations with Webb Cam and the petroleum technical advisers, was the topic of flat tappet cams versus the type of cam we utilize ever breached?  Flat tappet cams rotate the lifters in addition to moving the lifter up & down.  The bottom of the lifter has a large radius ground into it (so large as to be almost imperceptible) and the lobe is offset from the centerline of the lifter.  This results in lifter rotation.  It's my understanding that one of the key reasons for the elaborate cam break-in is to prevent the large radius on the bottom of the lifter from being upset.  Our cam/cam follower relationship doesn't have that feature to worry about.  I'm not disputing the info you provided in this post, just curious.  Why is it that only  the aftermarket performance product manufacturers seem to be worried about cam break-in?

I would be surprised to learn that the car and motorcycle OEMs are running up each engine on a test stand for 30 minutes at 2000 rpm.  We sure never did anything like that when we did dealer prep on the new cars and motorcycles at the dealerships where I worked.

What am I missing here?

Here's the relay you have to pull out of the way.

DragBikeMike:

That motorcycle of yours looks really clean - the back of the cylinder head looks like you could eat off it!

I believe that most new cars/trucks have been run long enough on the assembly line that the cam is already past the critical stage by the time the car is delivered to the dealer.  I also remember discussions about how the engine had "break in oil" from the factory....I no longer hear that discussion anymore.  I was also surprised how builders don't want synthetic oil in the engine during the first 150 miles - and yet a lot of new cars are reportedly delivered with synthetic oil when new (or do they really have a dino break in oil installed?).

I may have done something wrong or gotten a bad cam/rocker,  and I  could be chasing a demon that doesn't exist.