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Re: Mann Down!
Reply #30 - 07/10/17 at 10:43:27

WebsterMark wrote on 07/10/17 at 10:32:47:

You and Sew are both foolish. You're playing the role of the Church in their battle against Galileo. Covering your ears and shouting out "Deniers....!" like a cowardly leader in some alternative world's version of a climate Inquisition.

So you don't think the rate of change has anything to do with Man?

Why do you push so hard against someone asking valid questions?

I don't - but I'd rather err on the side of conservation. If the giant oil companies and other corporations got behind solar, wind, etc., would you feel different? What's wrong with being proactive?

Even the Prophets of your Climate Religion admit their predictions have all been wrong, but they just blame it on obscure conditions that apparently weren't revealed to them before. Now they promise disaster is just around the corner and you must believe them this time.

Again, what's wrong with being proactive?

You guys remind me of some Churches in 1999 who were positive Y2K was the start of the end times. When it came and went, they merely adjusted a few variables in their calculations, predicted a new end date in the future and posted a new link to send donations....

LOL - well, science and the church could not be further apart... bad analogy.

If you remember, it wasn't the churches that made the dire predictions, it was the big corporations. The Y2K "bug" was one of the biggest scams ever. Companies bilked other, larger companies out of millions of dollars in eradicating the "bug".

Climate change is nothing like that - again... bad analogy.

If you can sit there and deny that Man (all 7 billion of us) has had no effect on the Planet - you're delusional. It's impossible for us NOT to have an effect.

So - why not err on the side of conservation? Hey - even if it's not as bad as the scientists think it is - look at China. They're in line to make hundreds of billions on the world market in solar. The US should be leading that charge, don't you think?

Anyway - I'll stick with the scientists' view.

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Mann Down!
Reply #31 - 07/10/17 at 10:53:10

Even the Prophets of your Climate Religion admit their predictions have all been wrong, but they just blame it on obscure conditions that apparently weren't revealed to them before. Now they promise disaster is just around the corner and you must believe them this time.

Again, what's wrong with being proactive?

That's just Earth Shattering.. How revealing..

The Boy who Cried Wolf is a tale about what happens to those who point to impending disaster when no threat exists.

You somehow manage to pretend that After having been LIED to or, somehow Accidentally Misinformed, Gee, I Thought I saw a Wolf, Honest,, we should just go along with the same people who were so WRONG?

How many nights in a row would You have to get up, grab the gun, and head out to hunt down a nonexistent wolf before you stopped responding?

You're always gonna run and go, out of a need to be ProActive??

Wouldn't that preclude the notion that intelligent creatures Learn?

Ohhh, not necessarily,, sorry.

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Re: Mann Down!
Reply #32 - 07/10/17 at 11:07:18

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 07/10/17 at 10:53:10:

Even the Prophets of your Climate Religion admit their predictions have all been wrong, but they just blame it on obscure conditions that apparently weren't revealed to them before. Now they promise disaster is just around the corner and you must believe them this time.

Again, what's wrong with being proactive?

That's just Earth Shattering.. How revealing..

The Boy who Cried Wolf is a tale about what happens to those who point to impending disaster when no threat exists.

You somehow manage to pretend that After having been LIED to or, somehow Accidentally Misinformed, Gee, I Thought I saw a Wolf, Honest,, we should just go along with the same people who were so WRONG?

Well, do you deny that the rate of change is a cause for concern?

How many nights in a row would You have to get up, grab the gun, and head out to hunt down a nonexistent wolf before you stopped responding?

You're always gonna run and go, out of a need to be ProActive??

Wouldn't that preclude the notion that intelligent creatures Learn?

Ohhh, not necessarily,, sorry.

Intelligent creatures learn from their surroundings. Again, we know that the Earth has warmed before. We know that it's cyclical. We know how that happens. What's troubling is the rate that it's happening.
Like I said - I'll go with science on this one.

I'm surprised that you don't find it more dubious that those denying it are the likes of large corporations and the right wing establishment.

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Mann Down!
Reply #33 - 07/10/17 at 11:13:10

If you can sit there and deny that Man (all 7 billion of us) has had no effect on the Planet - you're delusional. It's impossible for us NOT to have an effect.

How many times do you have to be told nobody of any importance believes that?
This is what makes me call you a troll.
You quickly pretend a position, and defend from there.
Your straw man is dead.

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WebsterMark

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Re: Mann Down!
Reply #34 - 07/10/17 at 11:17:44

-So you don't think the rate of change has anything to do with Man?

I think mankind has a small impact on climate. I think every reasonable person would agree to that which is why you get the infamous 97% number. But it's seems tiny compare to what we've been told we are responsible for.

Why do you push so hard against someone asking valid questions?

-I don't - but I'd rather err on the side of conservation. If the giant oil companies and other corporations got behind solar, wind, etc., would you feel different? What's wrong with being proactive?

Are you so foolish you reject the possibility that professors and scientist are just as corruptible? Oil executives are demons but climate scientist are angels? Have you read nothing of the scientist who've lost careers because they didn't toe the line? You don't think the threat of being blackballed has the potential to influence them?

Oil companies etc... are behind wind, solar etc... It's a business decision, but mostly a decision based on PR. Oil companies know, as does most everyone else (including those in renewable energy) that wind and solar have a ceiling and it's a low ceiling at that.

Even the Prophets of your Climate Religion admit their predictions have all been wrong, but they just blame it on obscure conditions that apparently weren't revealed to them before. Now they promise disaster is just around the corner and you must believe them this time.

-Again, what's wrong with being proactive?

You guys remind me of some Churches in 1999 who were positive Y2K was the start of the end times. When it came and went, they merely adjusted a few variables in their calculations, predicted a new end date in the future and posted a new link to send donations....

-LOL - well, science and the church could not be further apart... bad analogy.

Science and the Church are much closer that you, but regardless, my analogy is darn near perfect. Look how you all want to shut off debate.

-If you remember, it wasn't the churches that made the dire predictions, it was the big corporations. The Y2K "bug" was one of the biggest scams ever. Companies bilked other, larger companies out of millions of dollars in eradicating the "bug".

Again, you don't think scientist and academia have made millions? Why is Turkey pulling out? The money's no longer there. Corrupt people are corrupt regardless of whose side of the debate their on. People questioning climate change are losing their careers, not building careers.

Climate change is nothing like that - again... bad analogy.

-If you can sit there and deny that Man (all 7 billion of us) has had no effect on the Planet - you're delusional. It's impossible for us NOT to have an effect.

No one said that. That's your fallback, straw man argument.

-So - why not err on the side of conservation? Hey - even if it's not as bad as the scientists think it is - look at China. They're in line to make hundreds of billions on the world market in solar. The US should be leading that charge, don't you think?

We are leading. We are not being fooled into redistributing our wealth. China is leading the charge..... in coal plant construction. the paris agreement exempted them for 10 years, India too. We should damage our economy, increase the wealth of our competitors all for a hypothetical fraction of a degree? Telling them to kiss off and go back to the drawing board is leading.

Anyway - I'll stick with the scientists' view.

Fine, I agree. Look up scientist who pose genuine questions about the fact that climate change has been seriously over-estimated.

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Re: Mann Down!
Reply #35 - 07/10/17 at 11:19:12

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 07/10/17 at 11:13:10:

If you can sit there and deny that Man (all 7 billion of us) has had no effect on the Planet - you're delusional. It's impossible for us NOT to have an effect.

How many times do you have to be told nobody of any importance believes that?
This is what makes me call you a troll.

First off - that wasn't targeted at you, but I'm sure web appreciates the protection.

Second - I first mentioned the rate of change - the main point I've made in several posts. Please take note of that in the future.

You quickly pretend a position, and defend from there.
Your straw man is dead.

I don't present a strawman - I present that the rate of change is what's more in question than the change itself.

Address that if you'd like.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Mann Down! Reply #36 - 07/10/17 at 11:20:57 Ouch
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Re: Mann Down!
Reply #37 - 07/10/17 at 11:32:18

WebsterMark wrote on 07/10/17 at 11:17:44:

-So you don't think the rate of change has anything to do with Man?

I think mankind has a small impact on climate. I think every reasonable person would agree to that which is why you get the infamous 97% number. But it's seems tiny compare to what we've been told we are responsible for.

You didn't answer the question. The rate of change is at issue. Do you believe that it's cause for concern?

Why do you push so hard against someone asking valid questions?

-I don't - but I'd rather err on the side of conservation. If the giant oil companies and other corporations got behind solar, wind, etc., would you feel different? What's wrong with being proactive?

Are you so foolish you reject the possibility that professors and scientist are just as corruptible? Oil executives are demons but climate scientist are angels? Have you read nothing of the scientist who've lost careers because they didn't toe the line? You don't think the threat of being blackballed has the potential to influence them?

Sorry, I don't believe in such crazy conspiracies. I do know that the main lobbyists for denial are funded heavily by big oil. To me, that's more cause for concern. It's also concerning that the establishment right wing is behind the denial as well. Two red flags that are hard to miss.

Oil companies etc... are behind wind, solar etc... It's a business decision, but mostly a decision based on PR. Oil companies know, as does most everyone else (including those in renewable energy) that wind and solar have a ceiling and it's a low ceiling at that.

Says who? Oh yea.,. oil and coal companies!! LOL . The fact is, the entire planet gets ALL the energy it has ever had, or will ever have, from the sun. Yes, even geothermal, tidal and wind can be traced back to the good old sun. So to say that there's a "ceiling" - that's kind of absurd. The true "ceiling" or actually "basement" is fossil fuels. They are indeed finite and non-replenishable.

Even the Prophets of your Climate Religion admit their predictions have all been wrong, but they just blame it on obscure conditions that apparently weren't revealed to them before. Now they promise disaster is just around the corner and you must believe them this time.

-Again, what's wrong with being proactive?

You guys remind me of some Churches in 1999 who were positive Y2K was the start of the end times. When it came and went, they merely adjusted a few variables in their calculations, predicted a new end date in the future and posted a new link to send donations....

-LOL - well, science and the church could not be further apart... bad analogy.

Science and the Church are much closer that you, but regardless, my analogy is darn near perfect. Look how you all want to shut off debate.

Shut off - not at all... In fact, I continue

-If you remember, it wasn't the churches that made the dire predictions, it was the big corporations. The Y2K "bug" was one of the biggest scams ever. Companies bilked other, larger companies out of millions of dollars in eradicating the "bug".

Again, you don't think scientist and academia have made millions? Why is Turkey pulling out? The money's no longer there. Corrupt people are corrupt regardless of whose side of the debate their on. People questioning climate change are losing their careers, not building careers.

Tell that to all the billionaire scientists... oh, wait.. Please show me the lists of those questioning climate change losing their jobs.

Climate change is nothing like that - again... bad analogy.

-If you can sit there and deny that Man (all 7 billion of us) has had no effect on the Planet - you're delusional. It's impossible for us NOT to have an effect.

No one said that. That's your fallback, straw man argument.

Not a strawman - it's actually a fact. Humans do indeed affect the Earth on a daily basis.

-So - why not err on the side of conservation? Hey - even if it's not as bad as the scientists think it is - look at China. They're in line to make hundreds of billions on the world market in solar. The US should be leading that charge, don't you think?

We are leading. We are not being fooled into redistributing our wealth. China is leading the charge..... in coal plant construction. the paris agreement exempted them for 10 years, India too. We should damage our economy, increase the wealth of our competitors all for a hypothetical fraction of a degree? Telling them to kiss off and go back to the drawing board is leading.

Anyway - I'll stick with the scientists' view.

Fine, I agree. Look up scientist who pose genuine questions about the fact that climate change has been seriously over-estimated.

I have - I still side with the proven climate scientists.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Mann Down! Reply #38 - 07/10/17 at 11:42:48 I have - I still side with the proven climate scientists. The ones who admit being wrong. Or lying. And you must, of Course, have some elements of these scientists claims that were so correct that you simply must continue to believe. Please, share their claims that proved out.
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Re: Mann Down!
Reply #39 - 07/10/17 at 11:51:21

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 07/10/17 at 11:42:48:

I have - I still side with the proven climate scientists.

The ones who admit being wrong. Or lying.

And you must, of Course, have some elements of these scientists claims that were so correct that you simply must continue to believe.
Please, share their claims that proved out.

Rate of change:

http://grist.org/climate-energy/there-is-no-evidence/

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Mann Down! Reply #40 - 07/10/17 at 12:01:57 CO2 rising Feeds plants Science agrees
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Re: Mann Down!
Reply #41 - 07/10/17 at 12:05:19

You didn't answer the question. The rate of change is at issue. Do you believe that it's cause for concern?

-No. It's miniscule. I'm 56 and have traveled the country and to a lesser extend the world, since I was in my 20's. I can't see any difference anywhere. And neither can you.

Sorry, I don't believe in such crazy conspiracies. I do know that the main lobbyists for denial are funded heavily by big oil. To me, that's more cause for concern. It's also concerning that the establishment right wing is behind the denial as well. Two red flags that are hard to miss.

-No, they are not heavily funded by "big oil". You don't honestly believe Judith Curry was funded by big oil and that's why she spoke up and lost her job? You think Francis Menton of the Manhattan Contrarian is a secret big oil employee? If I listed a 1000 scientist and professors who question the currently climate change story, would you think Mobil pays them all a salary? I don't particularly like you at all, but I don't think you're that stupid.

Says who? Oh yea.,. oil and coal companies!! LOL . The fact is, the entire planet gets ALL the energy it has ever had, or will ever have, from the sun. Yes, even geothermal, tidal and wind can be traced back to the good old sun. So to say that there's a "ceiling" - that's kind of absurd. The true "ceiling" or actually "basement" is fossil fuels. They are indeed finite and non-replenishable.

-Says me. I see it all the time. In my work, we use the sustainability angle and we all know it's BS. Yes, there's a ceiling. Just like there's a ceiling in anything mechanical. We can never have flying cars and spaces ships that zip in and out of orbit that are popular in science fiction for example. It's fun to think about and watch NASA make little jet packs suits a guy can fly around in for a few minutes. But our physical world will not allow the ships in "Close Encounters" for example. There is a mechanical ceiling that we'll bump up against. We'll make improvements no doubt but we'll hit a limit. How soon is anyone's guess. And there's a ceiling for solar energy. We've been at this for 30 or 40 years and it's a fraction of our energy. We can spend billions and billions to move up a few percentage points.

Not a strawman - it's actually a fact. Humans do indeed affect the Earth on a daily basis.

-Saying humans affect the Earth is like auditioning for Captain Obvious. No $hit Sherlock. But that's not the question now is it? The question is: Is the majority of the temperature increase we see (and we do see it. 15,000 years ago, the Great Lakes were nothing but ice so no one disputes the earth has/is warming) due to CO2 in the atmosphere due to fossil fuels? Plenty of scientist say NO to that question.

I have - I still side with the proven climate scientists.

-I side with the proven climate scientist who say manmade climate change due to co2 from fossil fuels is overstated. The evidence is more on their side than the other side.

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Re: Mann Down!
Reply #42 - 07/10/17 at 12:13:58

WebsterMark wrote on 07/10/17 at 12:05:19:

You didn't answer the question. The rate of change is at issue. Do you believe that it's cause for concern?

-No. It's miniscule. I'm 56 and have traveled the country and to a lesser extend the world, since I was in my 20's. I can't see any difference anywhere. And neither can you.

See chart and links above.

Sorry, I don't believe in such crazy conspiracies. I do know that the main lobbyists for denial are funded heavily by big oil. To me, that's more cause for concern. It's also concerning that the establishment right wing is behind the denial as well. Two red flags that are hard to miss.

-No, they are not heavily funded by "big oil". You don't honestly believe Judith Curry was funded by big oil and that's why she spoke up and lost her job? You think Francis Menton of the Manhattan Contrarian is a secret big oil employee? If I listed a 1000 scientist and professors who question the currently climate change story, would you think Mobil pays them all a salary? I don't particularly like you at all, but I don't think you're that stupid.

You can't list that many. Nice try though.

Says who? Oh yea.,. oil and coal companies!! LOL . The fact is, the entire planet gets ALL the energy it has ever had, or will ever have, from the sun. Yes, even geothermal, tidal and wind can be traced back to the good old sun. So to say that there's a "ceiling" - that's kind of absurd. The true "ceiling" or actually "basement" is fossil fuels. They are indeed finite and non-replenishable.

-Says me. I see it all the time. In my work, we use the sustainability angle and we all know it's BS. Yes, there's a ceiling. Just like there's a ceiling in anything mechanical. We can never have flying cars and spaces ships that zip in and out of orbit that are popular in science fiction for example. It's fun to think about and watch NASA make little jet packs suits a guy can fly around in for a few minutes. But our physical world will not allow the ships in "Close Encounters" for example. There is a mechanical ceiling that we'll bump up against.

Like the "unbreakable" sound barrier, right?

We'll make improvements no doubt but we'll hit a limit.

LOL - again, says who? Are you a theoretical physicist? Are you a astrophysicist?

How soon is anyone's guess. And there's a ceiling for solar energy. We've been at this for 30 or 40 years and it's a fraction of our energy. We can spend billions and billions to move up a few percentage points.

You may want to check what those "fractions" are... not so insignificant anymore.

Not a strawman - it's actually a fact. Humans do indeed affect the Earth on a daily basis.

-Saying humans affect the Earth is like auditioning for Captain Obvious. No $hit Sherlock. But that's not the question now is it? The question is: Is the majority of the temperature increase we see (and we do see it. 15,000 years ago, the Great Lakes were nothing but ice so no one disputes the earth has/is warming) due to CO2 in the atmosphere due to fossil fuels? Plenty of scientist say NO to that question.

Sigh.... rate of change. Rate of change. Rate of change....

I have - I still side with the proven climate scientists.

-I side with the proven climate scientist who say manmade climate change due to co2 from fossil fuels is overstated. The evidence is more on their side than the other side.

Rate of change.

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T And T Garage Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 9839	Re: Mann Down! Reply #43 - 07/10/17 at 12:15:59 justin_o_guy2 wrote on 07/10/17 at 12:01:57: CO2 rising Feeds plants Science agrees Um, not really.... http://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2016/sep...
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Re: Mann Down!
Reply #44 - 07/10/17 at 12:39:29

Whether Scientists agree or not, the SCIENCE is settled..

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