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Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc (Read 5530 times)
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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #150 - 09/03/15 at 08:27:02
 

Instead of one guy saying nearly there, nearly there, instead you got 5 investor groups each backing an inventor who is saying "my way works best".    Some of these guys are different enough that Rossi's patents do not apply, so indeed there are at least 3 fundamentally different ways to skin the LENR cat so far.

They will fight it out in the market place to see which is best.

Industrial Heat is planning on taking another 5 months to finish the First Production Test they are doing, which is in an Industrial Heat associated facility, and they are now touring selected investor types and very selected media types, but only under the terms of a iron-clad non-disclosure agreement.

When it is released,  the first write ups are already written and the full wave of investors are already signed up, as are manufacturing partners in China for the rapid production and dispersal of goods but only for those countries that will honor Rossi's USA patents.

If someone gets close to releasing something, the testing can be curtailed as it is already conclusive enough and all they are doing now is testing durability and mean time between rebuilds in an attempt to lengthen the run life of the reactors.   Some are the original cores, never rebuilt nor worked on .....

Initially, 6 months between core replacement was the desired goal, but that has already been grossly exceeded and no one knows what a "good" core can do for longevity, not yet anyway.  

And Rossi and Industrial Heat are trying to identify exactly what makes a long life "good" core vs a 6 months core as that is a rather important little bit of knowledge to their business.  

Plus, some cores do SSM periods 3-4 times longer than the other cores.   Why?    Rather important detail, that .... since it is truly free energy when running in SSM mode.

Smiley
     
http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/09/03/european-patent-office-approves-patent-f...

And here is another one to bring the count up to 6.
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« Last Edit: 09/03/15 at 16:07:52 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #151 - 09/03/15 at 09:11:38
 
The Chinese are literally dying to get this stuff rolling.
But sending stuff to china to be made is like cancelling any patent that you've gotten.
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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #152 - 09/03/15 at 09:21:52
 

CERN comes out of the closet now .....

http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/09/03/cern-to-host-seminar-on-the-anomalous-he...


I think China honors what China wants to honor, and if Industrial Heat has good relations with the Chinese government and IH only lets them hold the least of the applications (to see what they actually do with it) then getting your first consumer stuff mass produced as cheaply and as quickly as possible means a lot to an exploding technology like this.  

First to Market means brand name recognition, perceived leadership, greater patent enforce-ability,  etc. etc. etc.

For example, an inexpensive home room heater would be a wonderful introduction to Industrial Heat's LENR technology that could move quickly into adoption around the world.  Let it go into production in China and be sold in China to the Chinese first, then let the US UL drag its feet as it is going to do anyway.    

Individual Americans and the rest of the world will order through the internet direct from China, as they do now with electronics.

And this stuff is really popping now, we have 3 new players just today.   And 2 new methods to throw into the pot.

Since the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has said "no radiation, not our bailiwick" then UL is the only needed certification.   America's UL recognizes China's UL equivalent and will honor an equivalent industrial safety certification from another country as well.  

Nobody else has applied for certification nor have begun their certification runs, so Rossi is a solid six months to a year ahead of everybody else.

And yes, China or India or Indochina could expedite this entire certification mess if they wanted to.  

But I think they would be wise to wait until the current hot cat cores have been run through their entire life cycle to see if at the very end, when power starts to go down that is when the most complex, heaviest element reactions are going on -- they need to verify that no radiation is produced during those end of life reactor death cycles.    That the actual production hot cat cores really do "end of life" safely.

This may take a while, since no core has been run to end of life yet (they last too long).  

Indeed, they have been superseded by a better hot cat technology generation twice now before they could even be run to end of life.

("overcome by events" for like two generations worth of E-Cats at this point ......)

So, whatever the Chinese might rip off now would likely be over the dam technologically within a year or so anyway.    


Roll Eyes   Is the risk worth getting to the market first and establishing yourself as the market leader?   Perhaps ......

Rossi has alluded in the past to getting there first in a big way, generating great LARGE economies of scale and by doing so and by selling it cheap  to actively discourage the "copycats".
       
This would work as folks like Brillouin who say they need $20,000,000 to do a pilot plant would simply get cut off at the knees.

Folks whose stuff has most of a year left in development and a year in certification testing would be left at the gate by this strategy.


Chinese government scientists already HAVE patents granted to them by the Chinese system, but they can't show a working product at this stage of things.
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« Last Edit: 09/05/15 at 00:24:06 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #153 - 09/09/15 at 08:48:39
 




People don't go protecting jingles and ad-sayings unless they plan to use it to sell something.   Just read the list of stuff they plan to sell .......

We got signs that Industrial Heat and Rossi (Leonardo Corp) are readying production and distribution channels.

Rossi has also dropped a little tidbit, they have figured out how to variable throttle their new E-CatX from idle temp (still pretty durn hot) to full tilt boogie in minutes and then idle it back again as needed.

Think of it as reacting at the needed speed for a home forced air furnace system or a hot water heater and you will have the correct response speed idea.  

Such could also serve on a car, if you were willing to vent a lot of steam in town during stop and go driving.   However, open road running would be at minimal steam loss and would likely permit long driving distances on a tank of water.

Smiley

....... they will likely file ECatX as the heavy duty industrial brand name
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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #154 - 09/09/15 at 10:13:35
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 09/09/15 at 08:48:39:
People don't go protecting jingles and ad-sayings unless they plan to use it to sell something.  

They do if they want to scam investors... Huh...
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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #155 - 09/09/15 at 19:00:29
 

I think the level of investors that Industrial Heat has lined up would want a VERY serious tour, full access to the run data and some significant "proof of life" and apparently the investor big boys are getting that because some European and British large investment houses are listed as "distributors" now.

The folks calling out fraud are getting fainter and fainter.

Rossi could never swing this, but Industrial Heat can ....

Plus, Industrial Heat has good relations and lots of manufacturing contacts in China.
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« Last Edit: 09/10/15 at 05:52:42 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #156 - 09/09/15 at 19:08:24
 
Serowbot wrote on 09/09/15 at 10:13:35:
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 09/09/15 at 08:48:39:
People don't go protecting jingles and ad-sayings unless they plan to use it to sell something.  

They do if they want to scam investors... Huh...

patents cost more money then scammers will put up.
plus they are identified.  you'd have to have a pretty good front man.
rossi wouldn't cut it.  every petroleum big boy has him targeted.
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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #157 - 09/11/15 at 06:32:43
 

While on the subject of fraud, this seems like an appropriate addition to the discussion.   You see, the responsible and sensible folks at Cherokee and Industrial Heat have taken action to render long term fraud a non-possibility.

Yep, Industrial Heat has a reputable independent testing firm installed on site collecting their own data off their own automated equipment, with their only responsibility being a monthly report to both Industrial Heat and to the actual customer.   The customer himself also collects energy out (steam Killowatts) and energy in (electrical kilowatt/hours) from his pre-existing gaging as THAT was his condition of sale at the end of the test (COP of at least 3 off his gaging).

"Andrea Rossi has been making some comments about the data collection process that is taking place at the site where the 1 MW plant is in operation. Yesterday he explained that there were 1.5 million pieces of data per month being recorded from the performance of the plant.

He later clarified that this data was being collected by three parties:

His own team
The independent referee
The customer who is using the energy produced from the plant


In response to a question about how frequently the data from the referee and his own team was being compared, Rossi made the following statement. Note that in this case ‘ERV’ means ”Expert Responsible for Validation”

Andrea Rossi
September 10th, 2015 at 2:34 PM
Italo R.:
The ERV data have not to be compared to any other data and will be the only one deemed valid, independently from any other data recorded by anybody.
The ERV delivers periodically reports about the data collected in the due period. Obviously we compare our data with the data communicated by the ERV.
I can say that, so far, the data recorded from us are substantially consistent with the data of the ERV and that the differences are within the error margin of the instrumentation. The Customer makes independently his measurements, because he is not interested to the ERV, he just wants to measure how much thermal energy we deliver ( he just reads his gauges) and at the end of each month he sends us a report with the indication of how many kWh have been delivered. Also in this case, the data so far are reasonably consistent, with small differences that can be attributable to the error margin of the instrumentation.
Warm Regards,
A.R"


The overall results of the first year on the first 1 megawatt plant are already guessable,  as the Australian distributor has begun selling the things already (taking pre-orders) with a guaranteed COP of 6 or your money back.    We have heard of 20 COP being seen from some cells with the poorest performers being around 6-10 COP.

COP OF 6, this is enough power to drive a car or run a generator.

And, please be mindful that the new ECatX supposedly does BETTER than this.

Smiley

The format of the new plant is supposedly a half sized (short) container with two vertical banks of 4 large CATS in each bank, giving the customer full 100% redundancy for maintenance purposes.   This the normal industrial standard for maintenance redundancy for a critical industrial process.

A heavy fork lift can pick the thing up and move it around, and if you decide you don't want it (or don't pay your bills) then the distributor can easily come pick it back up again.

First year terms are the customer pays the going rate for steam energy, less a moderate discount for his risk factors and if the 1 megawatt plant turns a COP of 6 in the first year overall, then the customer pays for it at the end of the year.
     
This is a reasonable way to do it since in that year the plant will either get updated at least once to the current E-Cat cell model or else the customer might decline to pay for it because it has become technologically outdated ......

I would think that the 8 plug 'n play cells would be easily upgraded by the end of that first year and the old cells sent back in for refurb.   Ditto for the software driving the thing.   This protects the customer from a rapidly evolving new technology getting so much better during that first critical year as to make what he had purchased obsolete.  

This system of replaceable cores and replaceable software/electronics also means the customer can upgrade to the current state of the art every time his cores get tired.

Some thought has gone into this from knowledgeable people who work in the steam heat industry, you can tell.

Ships, trains, power stations are natural places to put this tech RIGHT NOW as at a COP of 6 it pays you to build a new ship a little earlier (commercial ships only last about 10-15 years anyway before they get scrapped and replaced).   Ditto for new train engines and new local power stations.    

Retro-fit for existing huge power stations will require a mega-core system that is not yet designed and tested, but seems to be a logical extension of the existing ideas.

Brillouin has been left at the gate with his COP of 3 system that costs 20 million dollars to do a pilot plant -- sad, but his ideas are still lithium free ideas and not competitive.

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« Last Edit: 09/11/15 at 08:56:34 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #158 - 09/11/15 at 07:06:22
 
verslagen1 wrote on 09/09/15 at 19:08:24:
patents cost more money then scammers will put up.
plus they are identified.  you'd have to have a pretty good front man.
rossi wouldn't cut it.  every petroleum big boy has him targeted.


Is that a Patent?...
I don't think so...
It's a Trademark for a name..."E-Cat The New Fire"...

I can trademark "Serowbot" for $99.95...
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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #159 - 09/11/15 at 08:34:18
 

Go back up a page in the thread -- this is the United States Patent granted just last month.

http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/08/25/andrea-rossi-granted-e-cat-patent-by-us-...

It predates the grant date given to the European Patent that was granted to Pantenelli and it can prove commercial functionality with a practical COP of over 3 and a practical application at the first commercial site which has been in production since before Pantenelli even filed his application.  

However, each local world government has now been busy issuing patents to their own players, so as to try to protect their ability to share in the new tech as it develops.

BUT THIS IS NOT ANYTHING NEW -- Last year Sweden and Norway have granted patents to non-functional non-proven local persons, as has Italy and as has China, Japan and Russia at this point in time.   They all now have a basis to play as the stuff develops ....

Right now with the complete details released in the US Patent that Rossi was granted, plus the details released in the 64 control system patents pending just about anybody can try to add that info to their old existing patents and try to see if it will fly.    

Lawyers will get rich arguing these cases for decades to come .....

Rossi may care about the rip offs (he remarks about them periodically), but I sense that Industrial Heat simply intends to prove their claims by a gross preponderance of market share, which is what really counts in the business world anyway.

Rossi has released ECat fully through the patent process, but he hasn't filed yet for the follow on, the ECatX, which is much more powerful and efficient and control throttle-able.   It is still closely held as a commercial secret at this time and it will stay there until ECat on the home market is firmly in place and Rossi's existing patents are holding appropriately.

PS ---- the copycats still have to go through their safety certification testing periods, and since they are claiming to be different they have got to prove themselves safe --- and they haven't even started on that process yet.    

Wink
   
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« Last Edit: 09/11/15 at 09:49:03 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #160 - 09/12/15 at 02:31:26
 
Oil-rich arabs, eat your hearts out !!!  Grin Grin Grin

Sure, we'll still be buying oil, but give me 20 years, and it'll be E-Cats worldwide and oil will only be required to produce plastics and the such.

Wink
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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #161 - 09/12/15 at 05:43:33
 
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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #162 - 09/12/15 at 14:54:41
 
Looks suspiciously like Murdoch from the A Team.
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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #163 - 09/13/15 at 00:27:31
 
Looks suspiciously like a photo shopped American flag.... those edges are kinda well.....

Anywho....

You keep mentioning the affordable home heater.... are there any specs on that? Does it get really hot and heat the whole home? or just the one room? is ol' ma' kettle going to fry her housecat when she puts it next to the bed? or is the blanket she sets it next to going to burst into flames?

I have four affordable home heaters from wally world, yeah the do up the electric a little, but they work great. How much moola is this new heater going to save me on my electric bill?

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Re: Update on E-Cat, state of oil markets, etc
Reply #164 - 09/13/15 at 07:28:45
 

Take the advertised COP value and apply it as a divisor to your current room heating costs.

That's likely a little more than you will really get, but a COP of 3 early unit should easily cut your heating bill in half, even considering the probable inefficiency of "first out the door" new tech devices.    If they come out of the gate at a COP of 6 (like the Australian Rossi guy is saying) then your bill will only be 25% of what it used to be.

So far liquid filled radiator type devices have been discussed, as they don't radiate killing hot anything but warm the room through air convection contact to the hot fins.   The extreme heat is contained inside a steel chamber which then heats the liquid which then gently heats the room air.  The three layers of steel involved also preclude any of the radiations seen so far from ever escaping the unit (but these have been weak radiations that would also be stopped by a sheet of aluminum foil so your crinkled foil head cap should protect your brain in case of a total systems breakdown)

I am interested in what they use for liquid, personally, as three to five gallons of light oil is too too many gallons of oil in case of a rupture and a fire due to a melt down.   Me, I would prefer a un-pressurized water filled unit that has a sight glass fill rod so you can see when you need to add some water.  

Yeah, it might lose some water due to evaporation, but think of it as a winter time humidifier effect that you get for free.

UL Safety Testing on American home heating devices will involve intentionally melting down a lot of cores and intentionally ruining a lot of units to prove it "always fails safely".  

And this is as it should be, btw.

I'd stick a unit on the hearth in my den and let it rip at whatever level you could stand to be in the room with it.   Ditto for another unit in my living room.   If I heated my downstairs well enough my upstairs is comfortable for sleeping (ran a wood stove for years down in the den so I know how my particular house works).
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« Last Edit: 09/14/15 at 19:36:28 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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