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adding zddp (Read 510 times)
Michael L
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adding zddp
01/04/14 at 09:07:15
 
About a month ago I changed the oil on my savage before putting it away for the winther.. Yesterday I read about the proper oil to use on the savage, and found that the oil I used is most likely not apropriate for the flat lifter engine..
I've found some info about the oil I used, but im not sure how much zddp it has in it.. Im wondering if I could add some additive or if I should change the oil and the new filter, or can I still use the new filter with the new oil..?

Here's a link to the info I found on the oil :

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/loc...

Here's an exact image of the oil I've used :

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10038255_970_FR_MO_13.JPG
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Re: adding zddp
Reply #1 - 01/04/14 at 10:56:41
 

"Thank you for contacting Castrol,

The actual ZDDP levels for our products is proprietary information.

However, we can supply you with a list of our products that have a higher
level of ZDDP.

The following Castrol products have Zinc levels that are typical of API SG
oil:

1. Castrol Syntec 20W-50 (*NEWLY FORMULATED classic oil formula - see link
to website below for information on our new 20W-50 product)
2. Castrol SYNTEC 5W-40
3. Castrol Grand Prix 4T 10W-40 (product has been replaced by Castrol
Motorcycle 4T 10W-40)
4. Castrol Grand Prix 4T 20W-50 (product has been replaced by Castrol
Motorcycle 4T 20W-50)
5. Castrol GO! ATV 10W-40
6. Castrol GO! ATV 20W-50
7. Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 (full synthetic, available @ BMW
dealerships)
8. BMW Long Life 5W-30 (full synthetic, available @ BMW dealerships)
9. Castrol GO! 10W-40 Motorcycle Oil
10. Castrol GO! 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil"



Angry   How is that for a polite "We ain't gonna tell you a straight answer"?   1,100 PPM is NOT what was typical back in the SG era, 1.400-1,600 ppm was typical in most all oils back then.


According to BITOG, if it is car oil and has SL as the oil spec on the label, it likely only has ~1,100 ppm of ZDDP and must be bumped for use in a Savage.    This is in line with the information you found in your search.

Go to the top of the page to the sticky topics, find the newbie threads and follow the links to the recommended oils and boosters page.
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Michael L
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Re: adding zddp
Reply #2 - 01/04/14 at 12:29:35
 
Thanks Oldfeller

What does SL stand for...?

Think i'll get some zddplus or maybe just get some redline motorcycle oil..
I can get it for 21 bucks for a quart. Since I don't ride that many kilometers a year(6 months winther) I think it would be worth it to get some of that redline super stuff  Cheesy

By the way.. When reading the oil specs, it says zinc% 0.25 - does that mean we're at 2500 ppm of zddp..?
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Re: adding zddp
Reply #3 - 01/04/14 at 13:04:52
 
No reason to screw around with that oil.

Go to Walmart, Tractor Supply, etc.  Buy some Rotella T for $ 13 a gallon, and get 2 oil changes out of it.  I wouldn't bother changing the filter this time.....just drain the crankcase.  If you want to spend more, buy the Rotella T-6 synthetic.
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Michael L
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Re: adding zddp
Reply #4 - 01/04/14 at 13:21:55
 
I don't have a wallmart store here, and I can't seem to find rotella anywhere from around here.. But I've found a shop who supplys redline oils, and another site who specializes in american cars who has zddplus..

I just used around 50$ on this new oil so I think it's a shame to not use it.. But ofcourse the right oil is important.. But this castrol oil I've got is for 4stroke motorcycles, so most likely it doesn't have any additive in it that would make the clutch slip, and then if I get some zddplus which as far as I can tell, doesn't have any of that either, would make for an ok oil mix for the savage or am I wrong..?
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Re: adding zddp
Reply #5 - 01/04/14 at 14:46:43
 

Where is here?   Just curious.

Since you already spent $50 on the oil, just use it.    You are only 100 ppm short of the bare minimum recommended amount of ZDDP, so the damage you do will be very minimal at the worst case.    If you ride sanely you likely will do no damage at all.

No Walmart?    How about Advanced Auto or Auto Zone?

How about a truck stop somewhere on an interstate?

Just ask the people where the diesel oil is in the store, generally it is away from the auto oils over in a corner or on an isle end display because it is all big gallon jugs and they don't want the car people picking it up because it costs less (about 1/3 less generally speaking).    The diesel oils are NOT GOOD for emission control sensors after all, and we are very glad we don't have any on our Savage to have to deal with.

All of these places do sell Rotella T Triple Protection oil and most of them carry the T6 full synthetic blue gallon jug as well.

So you made a small mistake because you didn't know any better, so now you  do know better.

Life is full of small mistakes, so you jest roll on and do better next time .....

Smiley
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Michael L
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Re: adding zddp
Reply #6 - 01/04/14 at 15:10:34
 
Sure, im from Denmark

We don't have big auto stores, or sections specifically for diesel or trucks in our shopping centers, it's mostly just for "cars", since that is what
the majority here drives, aswell as europe in general.. But I may be surprised to spot some good oil between all the pampers, justin bieber cd's and candy next time I visit the local gas station hehe. But anything is available, just have to dig alittle deeper..  Wink

Looks like im gonna use it then, but maybe just add some zddplus since it's not that expensive and good for laying around..  Cheesy
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Re: adding zddp
Reply #7 - 01/05/14 at 05:50:19
 
Michael L wrote on 01/04/14 at 15:10:34:
Sure, im from Denmark

We don't have big auto stores, or sections specifically for diesel or trucks in our shopping centers, it's mostly just for "cars", since that is what
the majority here drives, aswell as europe in general.. But I may be surprised to spot some good oil between all the pampers, justin bieber cd's and candy next time I visit the local gas station hehe. But anything is available, just have to dig alittle deeper..  Wink

Looks like im gonna use it then, but maybe just add some zddplus since it's not that expensive and good for laying around..  Cheesy


I would just do as Oldfeller suggests and use what you got.  But for future reference....
I Googled for stores that sold "motorolie" in Denmark and found this...


Web link to that page...
http://www.bilka.dk/search?text=motorolie

Wonder if the Shell Helix for diesel is similar to Rotella here in in NA?  Don't see any 15-40 but there is a 10-40
Gerry
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Re: adding zddp
Reply #8 - 01/05/14 at 09:13:54
 
Ls650.

Please go into your CPanel and add "Denmark" as your location.

It helps us to avoid giving you advice that doesn't work for your location.

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Michael L
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Re: adding zddp
Reply #9 - 01/05/14 at 16:56:20
 
Dave, will do.

I must admit that the "oil world" confuses me alot sometimes..
Is diesel oil suitable for gasoline engines also..? I know rotella is diesel engine oil, but thought it was some kind of special coincidence that it was suited for savage engines..
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Re: adding zddp
Reply #10 - 01/05/14 at 17:59:41
 


Rotella T products in the USA are sold as Heavy Duty Oils, which is a very old oil classification that goes all the way back to steam engines and the very early combustion engines.

It includes any extreme duty use, and it laps over diesel and gasoline equally.   Marine diesel engines, huge train engines, big truck engines all use HDO oils.

HDO's are marked as that on the jug.   They are generally sold located along with with the specific Diesel Oils as both types contain ZDDP and other extreme pressure additives --- all of which are NOT good to put in a catalytically equipped car engine.   These oils are also generally sold in big gallon jugs, so they sit away from the car oils.

Now, USA laws and grouping and such don't apply in other countries and the formulation of Shell Rimula and Sbell Helix is DIFFERENT (yup, close but not the same).   The laws Rimula and Helix ae composed to meet are different as well.    Helix is close to Rotella T6, btw.

Now, here is the irony --- Rotella T happens to be just about perfect for bike engines that don't use catalytic converters and oxygen sensors, etc.  So bikers lobbied Shell to test it for the original JASO specs a while back and put the symbol on the jug if it passed.  And it did,  And the symbol and ratings were added to the very long list of approvals on the back of the Shell Rotella T label.

Then the JASO specification changed to cover catalytically equipped bike engines and JASO became JASO MA and then it became JASO MA2 and slowly the JASO spec family became pretty much meaningless to the old flat tappet Savage engine's needs.

Rotella, being spec'd as a high end HDO oil didn't change at all and it will not change unless the CJ-4 HDO standard changes (about every 10 years or so this one evolves from CI-4 to CJ-4 to CL-4) but that hasn't happened in a while, thank goodness.

You will hear people say Rotella T is a bike oil (true).  You will hear people say Rotella T is a truck oil (true).  You will hear people say Rotella T is a big diesel engine oil (true).     All of the ratings and approvals for ALL of these uses are right there on the back of the jug.

It is much easier to say what Rotella ISN'T  ---  it isn't an oil for catalytically equipped, oxygen sensor equipped engines.
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Re: adding zddp
Reply #11 - 01/05/14 at 21:02:54
 
Try a truck stop for Rotella. Or a heavy equipment sales company, or heavy equipment mechanic,
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Re: adding zddp
Reply #12 - 01/06/14 at 10:57:02
 
I certainly agree with the oil recommendations; but, I am a little curious.  Let’s say three brand new s40s were purchased with the identical moderate riding styles / usage, same storage, normal routine maintenance, so on.  Let’s also work on the assumption that a versy can chain tensioner is also installed at 10K miles on all three.    How many miles would one expect to get out of each engine with run of the mill oil, shell rotella, and shell rotella synthetic?  Also, how many more miles would a zddp booster add to the engine as well.   Just curious, thanks.
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Re: adding zddp
Reply #13 - 01/06/14 at 11:04:58
 
Run of the mill oil...without enough ZDDP?  Wambr just bought an engine with less than 3,000 miles that is showing cam lobe damage.  I bought a cylinder head from a bike with 17,000 miles that has big gouges in the cam lobes - while the bearing surfaces look great (an indication it was never run low on oil).  Youzguys has been running Rotella T-6 and has 111,000 miles on his engine.
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Re: adding zddp
Reply #14 - 01/06/14 at 11:46:16
 
Just went to amazon and ordered some.   Wink
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