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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> adding zddp /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1388855235 Message started by Ls6500 on 01/04/14 at 09:07:15 |
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Title: adding zddp Post by Ls6500 on 01/04/14 at 09:07:15 About a month ago I changed the oil on my savage before putting it away for the winther.. Yesterday I read about the proper oil to use on the savage, and found that the oil I used is most likely not apropriate for the flat lifter engine.. I've found some info about the oil I used, but im not sure how much zddp it has in it.. Im wondering if I could add some additive or if I should change the oil and the new filter, or can I still use the new filter with the new oil..? Here's a link to the info I found on the oil : http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/p,q/pds_GrandPrixMotorcycle_4Stroke.pdf Here's an exact image of the oil I've used : |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Oldfeller on 01/04/14 at 10:56:41 "Thank you for contacting Castrol, The actual ZDDP levels for our products is proprietary information. However, we can supply you with a list of our products that have a higher level of ZDDP. The following Castrol products have Zinc levels that are typical of API SG oil: 1. Castrol Syntec 20W-50 (*NEWLY FORMULATED classic oil formula - see link to website below for information on our new 20W-50 product) 2. Castrol SYNTEC 5W-40 3. Castrol Grand Prix 4T 10W-40 (product has been replaced by Castrol Motorcycle 4T 10W-40) 4. Castrol Grand Prix 4T 20W-50 (product has been replaced by Castrol Motorcycle 4T 20W-50) 5. Castrol GO! ATV 10W-40 6. Castrol GO! ATV 20W-50 7. Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 (full synthetic, available @ BMW dealerships) 8. BMW Long Life 5W-30 (full synthetic, available @ BMW dealerships) 9. Castrol GO! 10W-40 Motorcycle Oil 10. Castrol GO! 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil" >:( How is that for a polite "We ain't gonna tell you a straight answer"? 1,100 PPM is NOT what was typical back in the SG era, 1.400-1,600 ppm was typical in most all oils back then. According to BITOG, if it is car oil and has SL as the oil spec on the label, it likely only has ~1,100 ppm of ZDDP and must be bumped for use in a Savage. This is in line with the information you found in your search. Go to the top of the page to the sticky topics, find the newbie threads and follow the links to the recommended oils and boosters page. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Ls6500 on 01/04/14 at 12:29:35 Thanks Oldfeller What does SL stand for...? Think i'll get some zddplus or maybe just get some redline motorcycle oil.. I can get it for 21 bucks for a quart. Since I don't ride that many kilometers a year(6 months winther) I think it would be worth it to get some of that redline super stuff :D By the way.. When reading the oil specs, it says zinc% 0.25 - does that mean we're at 2500 ppm of zddp..? |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Dave on 01/04/14 at 13:04:52 No reason to screw around with that oil. Go to Walmart, Tractor Supply, etc. Buy some Rotella T for $ 13 a gallon, and get 2 oil changes out of it. I wouldn't bother changing the filter this time.....just drain the crankcase. If you want to spend more, buy the Rotella T-6 synthetic. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Ls6500 on 01/04/14 at 13:21:55 I don't have a wallmart store here, and I can't seem to find rotella anywhere from around here.. But I've found a shop who supplys redline oils, and another site who specializes in american cars who has zddplus.. I just used around 50$ on this new oil so I think it's a shame to not use it.. But ofcourse the right oil is important.. But this castrol oil I've got is for 4stroke motorcycles, so most likely it doesn't have any additive in it that would make the clutch slip, and then if I get some zddplus which as far as I can tell, doesn't have any of that either, would make for an ok oil mix for the savage or am I wrong..? |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Oldfeller on 01/04/14 at 14:46:43 Where is here? Just curious. Since you already spent $50 on the oil, just use it. You are only 100 ppm short of the bare minimum recommended amount of ZDDP, so the damage you do will be very minimal at the worst case. If you ride sanely you likely will do no damage at all. No Walmart? How about Advanced Auto or Auto Zone? How about a truck stop somewhere on an interstate? Just ask the people where the diesel oil is in the store, generally it is away from the auto oils over in a corner or on an isle end display because it is all big gallon jugs and they don't want the car people picking it up because it costs less (about 1/3 less generally speaking). The diesel oils are NOT GOOD for emission control sensors after all, and we are very glad we don't have any on our Savage to have to deal with. All of these places do sell Rotella T Triple Protection oil and most of them carry the T6 full synthetic blue gallon jug as well. So you made a small mistake because you didn't know any better, so now you do know better. Life is full of small mistakes, so you jest roll on and do better next time ..... :) |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Ls6500 on 01/04/14 at 15:10:34 Sure, im from Denmark We don't have big auto stores, or sections specifically for diesel or trucks in our shopping centers, it's mostly just for "cars", since that is what the majority here drives, aswell as europe in general.. But I may be surprised to spot some good oil between all the pampers, justin bieber cd's and candy next time I visit the local gas station hehe. But anything is available, just have to dig alittle deeper.. ;) Looks like im gonna use it then, but maybe just add some zddplus since it's not that expensive and good for laying around.. :D |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Gerry on 01/05/14 at 05:50:19 427D383B3E3E0E0 wrote:
I would just do as Oldfeller suggests and use what you got. But for future reference.... I Googled for stores that sold "motorolie" in Denmark and found this... http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv55/lotus23bsr/Public%20Album/Ryca%20CS-1%20Build/9Th%20Installment/Capture_zps2bf6eaaa.jpg Web link to that page... http://www.bilka.dk/search?text=motorolie Wonder if the Shell Helix for diesel is similar to Rotella here in in NA? Don't see any 15-40 but there is a 10-40 Gerry |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Dave on 01/05/14 at 09:13:54 Ls650. Please go into your CPanel and add "Denmark" as your location. It helps us to avoid giving you advice that doesn't work for your location. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Ls6500 on 01/05/14 at 16:56:20 Dave, will do. I must admit that the "oil world" confuses me alot sometimes.. Is diesel oil suitable for gasoline engines also..? I know rotella is diesel engine oil, but thought it was some kind of special coincidence that it was suited for savage engines.. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Oldfeller on 01/05/14 at 17:59:41 Rotella T products in the USA are sold as Heavy Duty Oils, which is a very old oil classification that goes all the way back to steam engines and the very early combustion engines. It includes any extreme duty use, and it laps over diesel and gasoline equally. Marine diesel engines, huge train engines, big truck engines all use HDO oils. HDO's are marked as that on the jug. They are generally sold located along with with the specific Diesel Oils as both types contain ZDDP and other extreme pressure additives --- all of which are NOT good to put in a catalytically equipped car engine. These oils are also generally sold in big gallon jugs, so they sit away from the car oils. Now, USA laws and grouping and such don't apply in other countries and the formulation of Shell Rimula and Sbell Helix is DIFFERENT (yup, close but not the same). The laws Rimula and Helix ae composed to meet are different as well. Helix is close to Rotella T6, btw. Now, here is the irony --- Rotella T happens to be just about perfect for bike engines that don't use catalytic converters and oxygen sensors, etc. So bikers lobbied Shell to test it for the original JASO specs a while back and put the symbol on the jug if it passed. And it did, And the symbol and ratings were added to the very long list of approvals on the back of the Shell Rotella T label. Then the JASO specification changed to cover catalytically equipped bike engines and JASO became JASO MA and then it became JASO MA2 and slowly the JASO spec family became pretty much meaningless to the old flat tappet Savage engine's needs. Rotella, being spec'd as a high end HDO oil didn't change at all and it will not change unless the CJ-4 HDO standard changes (about every 10 years or so this one evolves from CI-4 to CJ-4 to CL-4) but that hasn't happened in a while, thank goodness. You will hear people say Rotella T is a bike oil (true). You will hear people say Rotella T is a truck oil (true). You will hear people say Rotella T is a big diesel engine oil (true). All of the ratings and approvals for ALL of these uses are right there on the back of the jug. It is much easier to say what Rotella ISN'T --- it isn't an oil for catalytically equipped, oxygen sensor equipped engines. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/05/14 at 21:02:54 Try a truck stop for Rotella. Or a heavy equipment sales company, or heavy equipment mechanic, |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by pgambr on 01/06/14 at 10:57:02 I certainly agree with the oil recommendations; but, I am a little curious. Let’s say three brand new s40s were purchased with the identical moderate riding styles / usage, same storage, normal routine maintenance, so on. Let’s also work on the assumption that a versy can chain tensioner is also installed at 10K miles on all three. How many miles would one expect to get out of each engine with run of the mill oil, shell rotella, and shell rotella synthetic? Also, how many more miles would a zddp booster add to the engine as well. Just curious, thanks. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Dave on 01/06/14 at 11:04:58 Run of the mill oil...without enough ZDDP? Wambr just bought an engine with less than 3,000 miles that is showing cam lobe damage. I bought a cylinder head from a bike with 17,000 miles that has big gouges in the cam lobes - while the bearing surfaces look great (an indication it was never run low on oil). Youzguys has been running Rotella T-6 and has 111,000 miles on his engine. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by pgambr on 01/06/14 at 11:46:16 Just went to amazon and ordered some. ;) |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Dave on 01/08/14 at 05:11:08 Here are some pictures of a cam and rockers out of an engine with 17,000 miles on it. The engine was an 87 model and was taken apart after a kick back on start up broke the engine case. The owner upgraded to a 5 speed engine and parted out the 87 engine. The cam and rockers all show evidence of the use of oil without sufficient ZDDP. The piston and cylinder look great, the bearing surfaces are all smooth and there is little visible wear - but the cam lobes and rockers are starting to fail. The newer oil with low ZDDP levels is not adequate lubrication for the sliding friction at the cam and rocker interface. http://i44.tinypic.com/2mw8ffr.jpg http://i39.tinypic.com/2q0tzf4.jpg And that is why we suggest you use Rotella T or T-6 - or supplement your oil with a ZDDP additive to get up over 1,200 - 1,400 ppm. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by pgambr on 01/08/14 at 15:14:28 Dave, thanks for posting. I hate to think what mine look like. :o I always thought oil was oil and you'll be in good shape if you keep it fresh. Wrong again. Like I mentioned I got some Eastwood ZDDP on the way and the change I did I put in normal shell rotella. Thanks again. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by LANCER on 01/09/14 at 04:48:43 I got a 6-pk of zddp from Eastwood last late-summer at a good discount with an email sale so I'm good for a while. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Pine on 01/09/14 at 08:17:30 I will add.. because it has not been said in this thread... Not only is there a NEED for ZDDP... BUT you MUST AVOID oils with Moly This seems to be the BIG problem in the US... EPA/oil companies are moving away from ZDDP and moving to Moly. However, because the (older style) bikes have the clutches bathed in the engine oil... the Moly sticks to them and prevents their operation. Oil companys though like to use terms like "slickeners" instead of just saying Moly. I use T6 not only because it does have ZDDP (in whatever amount) but also because it does NOT have Moly. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/09/14 at 08:54:26 Really, isnt it amazing? Rings, running up & down a wall, & so FAST they go,, & gasoline exploding, driving that compression ring even tighter against the wall, & yet, they do it over & over, & rarely fail. MILLIONS of times, running up & down, & the piston stays centered & rarely ever gouges up the wall. & then we have the oil to thank, so slick it is. It gets between things & keeps them from ripping each other apart. Its on that cylinder wall. Run one too rich too long & see what happens, itll wash that oil & the rings will tear it up. But what about that oil & those clutch disks? Its so slick between metal parts, but those little plates still grab each other,, & it seems to me that when I pull the clutch & allow those plates to open up, oil would walk up in between them & make them slip, but, nope, not unless its some fancy oil with Slickification added, The point I make is, we ride these things & they go & to my mind, its just bordering on miraculous that an internal combustion engine even works for more than a few minutes before it eats itself alive,. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by pgambr on 01/11/14 at 15:30:26 The ZDDP arrived in 2 days from Eastwood, which is amazing for slow boat cheap shipping. I put some in and let it idle for a minute or 2. Does that stuff work so good it actually makes the engine sound a whole lot smoother? |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Oldfeller on 01/11/14 at 22:59:18 1A23242F3E25384A0 wrote:
I wish this was totally true, but T6 and every other full synthetic on the approved list has around 60 ppm of moly oil in them. Moly oil is not the same thing as solid moly powder, which was the old style bad stuff that originally got moly its bad bad name. Jury is still out on moly oil at 60 ppm level for any very long term issues. All the full synthetics have it in there for extended drain interval reasons, so if moly oil at 60 ppm level was a widespread problem it would have showed itself by now, both here and in other forums as well. Rotella T does not have moly oil in it as it is not considered a long drain interval oil. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by pgambr on 01/12/14 at 21:51:37 I'm have Rotella T Triple Protection 15W40 with Eastwood Zddp additive in the s40. I took out the S40 today and it really ran well, a whole lot better than just off the shelf oil. I read the tech section oil recommendations, comments on this thread, and took took into consideration the advice of a good mechanic. He was also apprehensive about full synthetic oil. But it is hard to argue the fact that one fella has 100K+ on his. By running basic oil, I think it was safe to say the top end of my engine were on the same path as the pictures on this thread. Based on your experience, would you agree this is the ideal oil combination / recommendation. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by DavidOfMA on 01/13/14 at 08:39:06 For what it's worth, I've been using full synthetic oil for the 6500 miles I've had my S40, and the previous owner used full synthetic for the 6000 miles he had it. So far, the clutch has never slipped in any gear. Now I'm wondering if anyone has had a problem with synthetics and wet clutch motorcycles. Until this thread, I hadn't realized there was moly in these oils. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by gizzo on 01/15/14 at 22:01:12 Is there any chance that maybe the quality of the Suzuki cam and rockers are partly to blame for this kind of wear? Not trying to start an argument and if the Rotella works you'd be mad not to use it. Just that I remember fixing a bunch of Hondas (XR250) in the early 90's that had the same failures, and was caused by poor hardening. Early VF's too. Meanwhile there's a bazillion cars and bikes getting around on flat tappets with no problems at all. My DR250, XT 225 are both flat tappet, no problems there, and high mileage on any old bike oil. My Ducati has 100,000km and no wear evident (Ok, theres no valve springs there but the weird cam profile makes up for it...). BTW, I'm using Penrite diesel oil that has a large dose of zinc in the Cabbage, just in case. It's the same price as bike oil anyway. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/16/14 at 06:55:40 Gizzo, I think youre right to question the quality of the castings. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Oldfeller on 01/16/14 at 08:41:01 Take it logically, please. ALL cam lobes and rocker tappet surfaces are low to medium carbon steel with a case hardening layer on top of them. All such products, car and motorcycle both, can have both case hardening and heat treatment variations. Do we have these variation exposures on Savage parts, sure we do. ZDDP was invented to allow car makers to MAKE A SILLY ENGINE THAT LASTED 100,000 PLUS MILES IN THE FIRST PLACE. Before ZDDP, engines got overhauled around 50-80,000 miles (more or less). No pre-WWII car really lasted past 10-15 years before it was totally eat up. ================= Now, speaking generally just about the Savage -- before we started using Rotella and bumping, it was not uncommon for folks to have to replace cams and rockers around piston time, which generally took place at 40-50,000 miles. Does Rotella make a difference? YES Is it easy to separate out ZDDP effects from everything else? No, you have to weed out all the "low oil episodes" etc. to get any raw data. But you can do this if you keep track of it as the events happen. Actually, since we as a group went to Rotella and began bumping, no new engine that started out on that regimen has ever required a piston due to wear out, or a cam or a set of rockers. There were some that were run with car oils for the first 3/4 of their life that did though. Versy goes through engines for high mileage run at high interstate speeds faster than just abut anybody. Versy keeps oil in his engine pretty much religiously, so if anyone can answer that question he can. ================= There are examples of high mileage old bikes that ran strictly old style oils, I got an example of such from Lancer a while back so I got a chance to look at it in some detail. The case depth on the cam lobe tip was about totally gone, worn away. It had remnants of the case depth cracking away and coming off (the pitting we see in the pictures). No un-augmented old style oil can support our cam lobe and flat tappet system. Can Rotella plus bump do the job? Well, it apparently does it a lot better than un-augmented old style oils can do. This also causes me to suggest that if you got some mild pitting you just put it back in and run it until it wears out. You will eventually begin to lose power because your valves don't lift as high as they used to -- but by then you may be old enough not to really CARE about tippy top raw performance as much as you would now. ;) ... or if you are a RYCA boy, get tired of the endless push up and sell the RYCA and get you something else more comfortable. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Dave on 01/16/14 at 09:26:11 2F0C0406050C0C0512600 wrote:
I'm thinking that when Arthritis sets in and I am on my way to Rigormortis.....I can move the clip ons to the top of the fork tubes, or bolt on some flat trackers bars. Or maybe bolt on a side car and hire some young good looking gal to drive me around! |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by gizzo on 01/16/14 at 13:26:48 Thanks for the thoughts, Oldfeller. A couple of points: Pre WW2 metallurgy was such that parts just wore out faster. Materials and hardening have come a long way since then. "No un-augmented old style oil can support our cam lobe and flat tappet system." I'd debate that (if I had debating skills). like I said earlier, my other flat tappet bikes are just fine on dino motorcycle oil and my old Commodore (3.8l buick v6) has 410,000km, never been apart and still runs like new (did a compression test last year and they are still within factory specs). It has hydraulic lifters, pushrods, pressed steel rocker arms. No special oil used, just whatever's on special, and changed every 10,000km. Like I said, I'm not questioning the efficacy of Rotella, and I'd use it too, if it were available in Australia, just making the point that maybe Suzuki quality has to shoulder some of the blame, not only the antique architecture. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by Pine on 01/16/14 at 14:23:01 40636B696A63636A7D0F0 wrote:
I wish this was totally true, but T6 and every other full synthetic on the approved list has around 60 ppm of moly oil in them. Moly oil is not the same thing as solid moly powder, which was the old style bad stuff that originally got moly its bad bad name. Jury is still out on moly oil at 60 ppm level for any very long term issues. All the full synthetics have it in there for extended drain interval reasons, so if moly oil at 60 ppm level was a widespread problem it would have showed itself by now, both here and in other forums as well. Rotella T does not have moly oil in it as it is not considered a long drain interval oil. [/quote] I guess I should be more careful... a more correct statement might be: many car oils advertising high amounts of ZDDP also have "slickeners" which are not compatible with wet clutches. Choosing an oil baed on advertised ZDDP content is not suffiecient.. one must also avoid "slickeners". T6 seems to be one of a very few oils that meet both criteria. |
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Title: Re: adding zddp Post by S-P on 01/16/14 at 15:00:39 1B202D3A2B273C3A2129243B480 wrote:
Nice headlights. ;) |
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