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One reason the rich matter (Read 711 times)
babyhog
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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #45 - 08/16/10 at 10:46:32
 
I love Dirty Jobs!!  And yea, I can see cash businesses pocketing as much as they can get away with.  Running a business is hard.  And all the little dollar/cash transactions probably seem like just reward for all the effort.  (never done it, not condoning it, just guessing)  My father did run a dry cleaning business when I was little.  I have no idea about the financials, as it closed in my teen years, I think.  But he worked hard, and didn't get rich.

And I guess my amazement with the inherited number is more because those who do well tend to pass it along to their children (if those children don't snort it up their noses, etc.)  I'm not surprised that its lopsided, I just would have guess it more 70-30ish, even 65-35ish.

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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #46 - 08/16/10 at 12:12:20
 
I'm sorry, I'm not going to feel sorry for rich people. sorry, not going to happen so quit trying to convince me that all we need to do is let the rich people keep all their money so they can oh so generously buy stuff at their whim and eventually have that trickle down on the rest of us poor slobs.  I'm not convinced by that economic theory. I'm not blind to the consequences of the up coming tax increases either, it would have been wise for Bush to have made it a point to make those tax cuts economically viable by cutting back on government spending while he was in office, I would like to see the current administration also quit the spending spree it is on. I don't believe that you can depend on trickle down to create jobs, only increased demand creates jobs, tax cut trickle down can increase demand but by no means does it have to, some people will just save the money, some good managers will find a way to push their current employees harder and get more out of them to increase companies profits before hiring increases. this is just how it is. Also after 9-10 years of the bush tax cuts, it still didn't deter the financial shape we are in now because other things (both democratic housing bs and lax republican regulation among other things) counteracted any good those tax cuts might have done.

with all that said, I don't feel anger or any animosity towards rich people, but I'm not going to be persuaded to feel pity for them either. or bloat their already obviously important role in our society.

Also, tax cuts for the rich seems like a tortoise and hare kinda thing, where the rich want a spur in their pants like a hare instead of a slow growth that giving middle class and poor people tax breaks might create. Basically, I don't believe that the answer to our economy is tax cuts or government spending. this should be a slow hard climb out of recession, and many many other things are wrong with how our economy is working that tax cuts is barely an answer for the problems we are in.

I also have a problem giving people preferential treatment because they are more important, I don't kiss ass don't think our government should either.
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Jerry Eichenberger
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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #47 - 08/16/10 at 12:28:40
 
LA -

I didn't post those facts to generate any sympathy toward the "rich", whoever they are.

I simply was repeating facts disclosed on Yahoo, which most folks will agree tends to be liberal in the news they choose to print.

Again, I was just trying to so that most millionaires aren't "trust babies" who pay no tax and hang around a country club all day, and drive a Mercedes to and from.  None of these common stereotypes are true.
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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #48 - 08/16/10 at 13:07:52
 
LostArtist wrote on 08/16/10 at 12:12:20:
I'm sorry, I'm not going to feel sorry for rich people. sorry, not going to happen so quit trying to convince me that all we need to do is let the rich people keep all their money so they can oh so generously buy stuff at their whim and eventually have that trickle down on the rest of us poor slobs.  I'm not convinced by that economic theory. I'm not blind to the consequences of the up coming tax increases either, it would have been wise for Bush to have made it a point to make those tax cuts economically viable by cutting back on government spending while he was in office, I would like to see the current administration also quit the spending spree it is on. I don't believe that you can depend on trickle down to create jobs, only increased demand creates jobs, tax cut trickle down can increase demand but by no means does it have to, some people will just save the money, some good managers will find a way to push their current employees harder and get more out of them to increase companies profits before hiring increases. this is just how it is. Also after 9-10 years of the bush tax cuts, it still didn't deter the financial shape we are in now because other things (both democratic housing bs and lax republican regulation among other things) counteracted any good those tax cuts might have done.

with all that said, I don't feel anger or any animosity towards rich people, but I'm not going to be persuaded to feel pity for them either. or bloat their already obviously important role in our society.

Also, tax cuts for the rich seems like a tortoise and hare kinda thing, where the rich want a spur in their pants like a hare instead of a slow growth that giving middle class and poor people tax breaks might create. Basically, I don't believe that the answer to our economy is tax cuts or government spending. this should be a slow hard climb out of recession, and many many other things are wrong with how our economy is working that tax cuts is barely an answer for the problems we are in.

I also have a problem giving people preferential treatment because they are more important, I don't kiss ass don't think our government should either.


so, you talk like a fiscal conservative yet still bash "teabaggers"?
what bandwagon are you on?
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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #49 - 08/16/10 at 13:50:57
 
I bash teabaggers on the way they use their rhetoric, nazi signs and scare tactics and the rage that accompanies their protests are not appealing to me at all, now this is just from what I've seen portrayed on both fox news and other networks and the stubbornness of them as reported in the editorial letters of our local newspaper. but when speaking with conservatives on fiscal issues I'm basically okay with them. Just don't yell and scream and expect me not to want to fight you.

basically, I'd say I'm a social libertarian, a fiscal conservative, and anti being an aggressor in war but I think we should have a strong military yet be wary of the military industrial complex  and I believe in government sponsored dreams when necessary like NASA, I'm also compassionate and not opposed to our government helping out those in true need but I"m against the abuse of that system that often corrupts the view of it and those that use it.  I also recognize that the system set up to for helping is extremely flawed and needs reworking.

and being a fiscal conservative has nothing to do with tax cuts, it's about spending wisely on what this government needs and not on tax cuts to get re-elected.
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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #50 - 08/16/10 at 14:00:22
 
and yet the liberals are so nice?

after all of the Bush bashing, Cheney hating, Palin smearing that has gone on??

And that is from the people you voted for, not the everyday folks.


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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #51 - 08/16/10 at 15:02:14
 
LA -

A bit more response to your post:

"Trickle down" is an old phrase first used by Hubert Humphrey in the late 1960s.  It really has no meaning, other than to generate hard feelings.

I have no sure fire answer to stimulating demand, yet we must stimulate demand to stimulate manufacturing, home building, and other major sectors of the economy.

What I do know is that minor tax cuts for lower earning people, while politically popular, have no real effect.  As I said earlier, giving some poor souls on the edge of poverty another $10 per week in the net paychecks doesn't get the job done.

Since I'm also no expert in banking regulation, I really don't know what effect teh "stress tests" that the Obama administration has put upon banks have done.  I do know that the tightened lending standards have hurt consumer financing.  One of my friends is a Ford dealer in a small town.

He has told me that the traffic thru his dealership never really fell all that much, but over the past 18 months or so, the main problem he's had is that he just can't get financing for the lower 25% - 30% of what would be new car customers, like he could 3 or 4 years ago.  These aren't jobless customers, but just folks with a little less income, or a little poorer credit score than is required now; people who could get a new car 3 or 4 years ago, but can't today.

We need to get banks lending again, whatever that takes to do it responsibly.

I don't advocate going back to the "liars loans" for houses that started all of this mess 5 years ago, but there has to be a reasonable middle ground over the too strict standards of today.

I know in my own business that we could sell a few more airplanes if lending were lightened up some.

Then, normal people, with reasonable jobs need to get off of the "fear wagon", and live normally.  Again, I don't mean reckless borrowing, but ole FDR said it best when he told the nation in 1932 that "all we have to fear is fear itself".  I know many people who are plainly hoarding money, not replacing old cars, basically not buying much of anything that they absolutely don't have to buy - that mentality will never spur a recovery.

Perhaps the Bush tax cuts do need to expire - we've got to do something to get the national deficit somewhat under control.  And, letting them expire really won't hit even upper income people very hard.
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Jerry Eichenberger
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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #52 - 08/16/10 at 15:06:51
 
buttgoat, I see the bashing from both sides, you seem to be blind to the conservative side and think only the liberals are mean. it's always the party that is out of power that is mean. Also, liberals seem to be the angriest about wars and social issues which I am more likely to agree with them on, so I am probably more tolerant and lenient on their BS while conservatives seem to voice more anger about tax cuts and social issues that I disagree with them on so I am less tolerant of and you might be more tolerant of.

Liberals also seem to be more mocking and jokery while conservatives seem to be more likely to pull out a gun and use such props for power plays.
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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #53 - 08/16/10 at 15:20:43
 
Jerry give a poor person $10 more he would be in heaven,Give a rich man $10000 he tell you keep your money you cheap skate.
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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #54 - 08/16/10 at 15:33:30
 
Bill -

What in the world has that comment got to do with what we're talking about?
We're talking a about stimulating the economy.

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Jerry Eichenberger
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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #55 - 08/16/10 at 15:44:53
 
Jerry, I appreciate your response.  I am also appreciating the 14 bucks more a pay check I get now than I did before thanks to Obama's stimulus thing, even though I disagree with the way the stimulus was done in that bill. that 14 bucks a check actually gave me just enough more to finance a motorcycle I otherwise probably wouldn't have gotten or would have had to extend my payments for and would have been uncomfortable getting. I think the banks are doing the right thing by denying more people those loans. It's putting what people think they can afford back in line with what they really can afford. also if you give less to more, the more people will probably just spend the less money instead of saving it.  anyway, I appreciate the open debate. thanks
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Jerry Eichenberger
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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #56 - 08/16/10 at 15:55:14
 
LA -

I'm sure not against responsible stewardship of one's money, and am not against responsible lending by banks.

But, what are your thoughts aobut how to stimulate those major sectors of the economy like manufacturing and home building, along with commercial construction as well?  A rise in construction means more bulldozers, more cranes, etc. that all take higher paid production workers to produce.

The good paying jobs are in those fields, not in flipping burgers at a new Mickey D's.  

To me it's:  Demand and responsible financing = production = good paying jobs in production = more demand as those workers now have some money = more production.

Seriously, is that too simple an outlook?
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Jerry Eichenberger
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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #57 - 08/16/10 at 16:31:51
 
Jerry et-al, you know I make less than most of you but I have found the best way to by a motorcycle or a car is to figure out the payments ,less what you can get for your presant vehicle,every month just put that money in a box under the bed, and get yourself a pickle jar and throw your change in every day,before to much longer Wallah
you have your money for that shiney new bike or car,or a later model than you have now,it is so sweet not to have payments.
If you cant afford to save that much,then you cant afford a bike or car that you want.
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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #58 - 08/16/10 at 16:36:24
 
babyhog wrote on 08/16/10 at 10:46:32:
I love Dirty Jobs!!  And yea, I can see cash businesses pocketing as much as they can get away with.  Running a business is hard.  And all the little dollar/cash transactions probably seem like just reward for all the effort.  (never done it, not condoning it, just guessing)  My father did run a dry cleaning business when I was little.  I have no idea about the financials, as it closed in my teen years, I think.  But he worked hard, and didn't get rich.

And I guess my amazement with the inherited number is more because those who do well tend to pass it along to their children (if those children don't snort it up their noses, etc.)  I'm not surprised that its lopsided, I just would have guess it more 70-30ish, even 65-35ish.


piglet,you love dirty jobs ? you know my real name is Mike Rowe.
I wish I was the other one,he makes big money and he's way younger.
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Re: One reason the rich matter
Reply #59 - 08/16/10 at 16:47:06
 
Jerry,

That is a totally reasonable approach, however I'm for that happening naturally without government intervention, no tax cuts or stimulus. we've been riding too many bubbles. unfortunately we sold out our manufacturing jobs a long time ago for various reasons and now we are headed towards a service based economy. we've replaced the manufacturing jobs with marketing jobs somewhat. the idea people are the ones making the money, however, that is getting harder and harder because of various interpretations of copyright and patents especially in the digital areas, I think in the end it's a from the bottom up approach that'll work, so that burger flipping job can afford a lil of something to help push demand, a cultural change would be helpful too, so we don't all have to stand alone all the time, in Japan and China and lots of places in Europe it is not uncommon to find families living together for many generations but in America it's a stand on your own after you are 18 kinda attitude. I don't know, it's going to be a long fight out of this, there is no easy way and I'm by no means qualified to even guess what to do next, I get up, go to work and try to spend less than I take in, so far I'm making it, not by a lot but I'm not afraid of next month.
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