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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> One reason the rich matter /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1281359968 Message started by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/09/10 at 06:19:27 |
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Title: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/09/10 at 06:19:27 There's a good article on Yahoo this morning about why the rich folks matter. As everyone knows, our economy is driven by consumer spending for things from cars, appliances, etc. down to ballpoint pens. Those who earn the top 5% of the income in the U.S. account for 37% of all spending. When the wealthy stop buying, especially discretionary items, the economy falters. When things are good, and they are spending vast sums, that spending drives the economy forward. Whether you like this fact doesn't matter - it's still a fact. When you put purchasing power into the hands of those at the top, they spend and create demand that in turn creates jobs for those who produce what is bought. When you have gov't policies, like high taxes, tight credit, and other forces that diminish spending, we all suffer. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by bill67 on 08/09/10 at 06:27:11 The rich spend money on Germany cars,Mexicans mowing their lawn and yard work.Chinese clothes and shoes. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/09/10 at 06:46:32 Bill - Some of that is true. But don't forget vacation homes in the U.S., Harleys, Cadillacs, boats made here, etc. And German cars are sold by U.S. dealerships that employ salesmen, shop mechanics, bookkeeping staff, etc. Imported clothes are sold by stores here in the U.S. that employ sales people, tailors, janitors to clean the stores, etc. The place of manufacture doesn't determine who all benefits from the sale - in fact, very little of it. Take a foreign car - on a one time basis, the foreign manufacturer benefits a few hundred bucks in profit from the sale. Thereafter, the dealership and its employees benefit, as do the maint. technicians who service it for the next 100,000+ miles. It's not as simple as just the country of manufacture. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Charon on 08/09/10 at 06:59:15 Jerry and Bill: As you know it gets more complex than that. For example, Kawasaki has a plant in Lincoln, NE. At that plant are manufactured all Jet Skis, Mules, and I think all of their four-wheelers. They made motorcycles there too, during the days of the over 700 cc tariff. They also manufacture rail cars, and the wheels for other makers' four-wheelers. So, is a Kawasaki Jet Ski a foreign product? My Pontiac Sunbird, allegedly an American car, has an engine made in Brazil. My Kawasaki 250 Ninja, supposedly Japanese, was made in Indonesia. If you are using a computer of any brand, odds are exceedingly good it contains parts made in China - if indeed it wasn't made there entirely. BMW has, or was building, a plant in Alabama. Beretta (firearms) sells pistols made in their plant in Accokeek, MD to the Army. Honda makes cars in Ohio. Nissan has a plant in Tennessee. Toyota makes their Tundra pickups in the USA. It is getting really tough to use the argument about buying foreign products, because there are so many of them. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by mick on 08/09/10 at 07:02:19 When I was tending bar in Long Beach there was several wives that got together and flew off to Hong Kong to do there xmas shopping. Mostly clothing ,mens suits and shirts.I'm sure that didn.'t help our economy.BTW the guys were all lawyers,most of my customers were lawyers and stock brokers. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/09/10 at 07:19:14 Mick - I always knew I should have migrated to California after I got out of the Army. Now, with your story of all of those "rich" lawyers there, I know for sure that I should have <g>. Bill and Charon - The BMW plant is in South Carolina. There is also a Mercedes factory somewhere in the south that makes the G series SUVs. Today you just cannot say that any product is soley that of any single nation. It's the American distribution chain that benefits from a "foreign" product. Even if the product is actually imported, an Amercian Longshoreman unloads it at the port of entry, and Americans distribute, sell, and maintain it going forward. Ay my airport, we are dealers for Tecnam airplanes. Made in Italy, with an Austrian (Rotax) engine. All of the avionics are American brands, and that's about 1/3 of the price of the airplane. My American mechanics maintain our customers' airplanes, my American line service guys put fuel in them, and they pay hangar rent to us, an obvious American enterprise. When tires and brakes need replacement, American ones go in. The list is endless - foreign products no longer benefit only the foreigner. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Stimpy on 08/09/10 at 07:39:32 It's all quite complex but Jerry explained it well, yes, money trickles down. The economy (as we all know it) will NEVER recover in a million years without money circulating at all levels, i.e. from pens to bentleys, but here is the kicker: it's not supposed to, not for a while, here is why. It all has to do with WHO is making your plastic pen or luxury car. What is happening right now is a sort of filter for little unwanted companies and for that very unwanted pesky middle class that were told in the 80's that SOCIAL MOBILITY was possible, haha, well it's NOT and it's time to knock them all out of their cloud. Here is the thing, COKE and PEPSI are NOT in competition with each other, neither are BMW, PORSCHE and BENZ or TIME WARNER, DISNEY, BARTELSMANN, VIACOM with SONY, etc. It does not matter where you shop as long it's in one of their stores/products. In reality they are all just a huge monopoly that only give the illusion of free market competition. It's all a STAGED SHOW!!!! ...just like wreastling. These guys have 3 golden rules: 1.- Competition is a sin. We are a cartel, a family. 2.- Don't place all your eggs in one basket If a factory shuts down only the workers and the city suffers not us, who cares. 3.- People forget, but still always keep the public dumb and entretained (distracted). american idol, no! Monday night football, oh! look at the cat playing keyboard! ...awww You don't believe me? Ok, fine, then just answer this: WHY are small banks shutting down left and right all while specific LARGE banks get FREE money (bailout) to keep operating? ...and it's the same story in every single sector of industry and trade. why? ...simple, they own these banks and these companies, it's all connected. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/09/10 at 07:48:10 Stimpy - Who is "they", and specifically, how are Coke and Pepsi, or BMW and Daimler, interconnected? |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Stimpy on 08/09/10 at 08:01:43 yes, they're all connected in a way, and if they are not they are kept around for a reason, maybe as a supplier /producer of a specific non-competing good they need or to give the illusion of competition; remember, to them, competition is a sin, period... only that no one told the managers and workers of these companies, that's why it looks/feels real and why a CEO (one of them) usualy makes anywhere from 30 to 200 times more than a regular employee. And who are 'they'? well no conspiracy here or anything, look it up yourself, start at the top and follow the money. A good place to start is with the media companies. See what does GE, VIACOM, SONY, ETC own: - tv/cable channels - movie studios - radio stations - magazines - music lables - telecommunications - real estate - overseas tv networks and/or holdings - what BANKS all the money runs through and how these banks change name in every region or country but are the SAME bank! - where/how do these companies diversify into other industries like sports franchises, food, heavy industries, contractors, etc do this and and you'll start to get the picture ;) |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Stimpy on 08/09/10 at 08:16:33 coke, With a portfolio of more than 3,300 beverages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Coca-Cola_brands http://www.thecoca-colacompany.com/brands/brandlist.html pepsi Pepsi Diet Pepsi Mountain Dew AMP Energy Aquafina Sierra Mist SoBe Starbucks Frappuccino Lipton Iced Tea 7up Mirinda Izze Tropicana Products Copella Naked Juice Gatorade Propel Fitness Water Quaker Oats Company Lay's Doritos Cheetos Kurkure Fritos Rold Gold Ruffles Tostitos Slice Frappuccino Starbucks DoubleShot Starbucks Iced Coffee Mandarin (license) D&G (license) Lipton Brisk Lipton Original Iced Tea Lipton Iced Tea Ben & Jerry's Milkshakes Dole juices & juice drinks (license) Sunny Delight (they wouldn't sell, so you think Jolt Cola had a chance?) ...do the math |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/09/10 at 08:20:15 Sorry, Stimpy - All of this is crap. You and JOG ought to get together for a flushing out of all world wide conspiracies. My local bank is owned by local shareholders. I have a few shares - wish I could afford more. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Stimpy on 08/09/10 at 08:23:03 Ok, no problem, you are right, from now on bike-talk only round here from my part, there is truly nothing I can do to make you see that the economy of the US Corp. of America is based on fundless funny money that might as well be printed at kinkos. Wake uuuup and ask yourself why the FED works above the law as has not been audited. P.S. the fed is nothing but the american franchise of the Bank of England BUT without the gold reserves to back it up. ...and btw, Fort Knox is empty. See you around. Richard |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Serowbot on 08/09/10 at 08:27:48 222D212B202D262A2D3A2F2D3A480 wrote:
... and so,... those tax cuts for the rich, and the lax lending regulations are what GW used to give us this robust economy and high employment... Yeah,... we should do that again... :-?... You can't seriously be arguing in favor of a repeat of that policy after 8 years of proven failure... Is this hole not deep enough?... |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/09/10 at 08:39:53 Serowbot - You forget that things were going nicely until the subprime mortgage meltdown started the cascade of failures, or near failures, that almost brought down the global financial system. All of this happened in the last year of GWB's 8 years in office. It took that long for his predecessor's errors to manifest themselves. And whose idea was it to provide subprime mortgages to those who could not afford them in the first place? Of course, Bill Clinton and that misguided Community Reinvestment Act. In trying to do something for the "little guy", they darned near ruined the little guy, as tens of thousands of them were forced into foreclosure. We'll never agree on this - so say you're right - how would you get consumer spending up again, in amounts that matter? Telling us that if a lower middle class person has $10 more per week to spend at WalMart for sure isn't the answer. What matters is to get manufacturing of high end items rolling again, with the good paying jobs that manufacturing and distributing entail. And we know who buys those items. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by buttgoat1 on 08/09/10 at 09:09:44 fortunately we have good ole GM! Spending $500M right here in North America, well at least in Mexico........ http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100803-721411.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines thanks for the bailout guys! |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by bill67 on 08/09/10 at 09:56:40 My last car I bought last year is a Kia,I got smart like GM they can get car made cheaper in Mexico,I bought a car made in Korea and they have cheaper labor than Mexico,I will never buy another GM car or truck,In my life time I bought about 30. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Starlifter on 08/09/10 at 10:41:32 Wall street and corporate america aided and abetted by the government............... Fraud, conspiracy and extortion; the driving force of american business. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Starlifter on 08/09/10 at 10:58:08 Jerry wrote: "You forget that things were going nicely until the subprime mortgage meltdown started the cascade of failures, or near failures, that almost brought down the global financial system." The rich invested in risky financial instruments. That is what caused the bubble and the crash. I certainly did not put any of my money into overpriced real estate or overhyped derivatives. Wealthy people chased money. They had the money to invest and could have invested it in American manufacturing industries or products, but they chose not to because they could not make the outrageously huge sums of money they wanted to make by investing in real American factories, by paying American wages to prospective American consumers. The top 1% could have bet their money on American workers and consumers. They didn't. So, yes, the recession is the fault of the disparity between the haves and the have-nots in America and that is the fault of the rich and the Bush tax cuts as well as other aspects of our tax code. We're in a Recession Because the Rich Are Raking in an Absurd Portion of the Wealth. Consider this article: <snip> Wall Street's banditry was the proximate cause of the Great Recession, not its underlying cause. Even if the Street is better controlled in the future (and I have my doubts), the structural reason for the Great Recession still haunts America. That reason is America's surging inequality. Consider: in 1928 the richest 1 percent of Americans received 23.9 percent of the nation's total income. After that, the share going to the richest 1 percent steadily declined. New Deal reforms, followed by World War II, the GI Bill and the Great Society expanded the circle of prosperity. By the late 1970s the top 1 percent raked in only 8 to 9 percent of America's total annual income. But after that, inequality began to widen again, and income reconcentrated at the top. By 2007 the richest 1 percent were back to where they were in 1928—with 23.5 percent of the total. Each of America's two biggest economic crashes occurred in the year immediately following these twin peaks—in 1929 and 2008. This is no mere coincidence. When most of the gains from economic growth go to a small sliver of Americans at the top, the rest don't have enough purchasing power to buy what the economy is capable of producing. America's median wage, adjusted for inflation, has barely budged for decades. Between 2000 and 2007 it actually dropped. Under these circumstances the only way the middle class can boost its purchasing power is to borrow, as it did with gusto. As housing prices rose, Americans turned their homes into ATMs. But such borrowing has its limits. When the debt bubble finally burst, vast numbers of people couldn't pay their bills, and banks couldn't collect. China, Germany and Japan have surely contributed to the problem by failing to buy as much from us as we buy from them. But to believe that our continuing economic crisis stems mainly from the trade imbalance—we buy too much and save too little, while they do the reverse—is to miss the biggest imbalance of all. The problem isn't that typical Americans have spent beyond their means. It's that their means haven't kept up with what the growing economy could and should have been able to provide them. more . . . http://www.alternet.org/economy/147469/we\'re_in_a_rece... |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/09/10 at 11:10:39 Lifter - Who or what created those risky mortgage backed subprime investments? Answer - The misguided attempt to spread home ownership beyond any limit of common sense and affordability - the Community Reinvestment Act - the brain child of the Dems of the Clinton era. Don't blame investors - blame the silly politically motivated gov't programs that created those opportunites for investors to cash in. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by LostArtist on 08/09/10 at 13:33:21 2A25292328252E222532272532400 wrote:
who took the purchasing power from those at the top?????? there are still rich people out there right? quit crying and deal like the rich keep telling the poor to do. Tax cuts created a false economy that was unsustainable and while Bush was in office the republicans failed to cut spending in any way to make those tax cuts sustainable. Clinton had a $200 billion dollar surplus at the previous tax rates. now we won't reclaim any of that with the current spending going on in DC but keeping the tax cuts is kind of a mistake as well. and the 5% control 37% statistic is kinda scary, means that those of us out of the 5% are less and less significant and it scares me to think that we will be disvalued and seen even more as second class citizens. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/09/10 at 13:53:03 On a related, but somewhat diffferent note, read the yahoo article today about the "new normal" in shopping habits. In a nutshell, people , especially the middle class, are cutting way back on consumer purchases. Many of us have found that possessions, and the credit card debts that often go along with them, certainly aren't needed to be happy in life. This struck home to me because I saw my own recent behavior. I have to admit that I've only been in a WalMart about 3 times in my life until a couple of weeks ago. I needed a couple of pairs of casual shorts for a short vacation trip. My son-in-law is a committed WalMart shopper, so I thought I'd go in there and see. Well, I got brand name Wrangler shorts for $13 each - in the past I'd probably have gone to Macy's and dropped $30+ each for Dockers. A couple of days later, I needed a pair of moccasin type shoes which I wear around the house. Instead of dropping $80 for Dockers or Rockports I went again to Walmart and paid $17 for their store brand. Yeah, they aren't natural leather, but who cares when all they do is get worn to push the garbage can to the end of the driveway? While there, I noticed they sell Wrangler jeans for $9 a pair - heck of a lot less than Levis at Macy's. Next time I need a pair of jeans, guess where I'm going? But the bad part of all of this is what we started out talking about this morning - our consumer spending driven economy is going to be a long time adjusting if this "new normal" continues long term. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by bill67 on 08/09/10 at 15:06:50 Next time I'm in trouble I'm going to get me a Chinese lawyer they charge $12.50 and hour. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Starlifter on 08/09/10 at 18:45:19 Wal-Mart. Cheap stuff for carful stewarts of their fiscal resources eh? The problem is widespread and pervasive, the effect of an economy reliant on an ever-accelerating cycle of consumption and corporate profits to maintain itself. By removing restraints like union bargaining power, higher tax rates on corporate profits, and regulations, we’ve let this cycle spiral out of control to where the health of the economy depends on constantly pushing labor costs downwards, resulting in far too many people who can’t afford to shop anywhere but at Wal-Mart. The desire to succeed, to accrue wealth and acquire stuff, is normal and helps sustain human economies and societies. It’s a very powerful engine, but like anything with vast power, when it is out of control it can do terrible damage. Americans rely on stuff to an unhealthy degree, and our desire to make stuff, lots of stuff, available to everybody, has made us vulnerable to a form of consumer exploitation that is harming our country’s security, our resilience, and the very infrastructure that supports us. In valuing cheap consumer goods so highly, we have enabled a small minority of our fellow-citizens to own and control a huge percentage of our national wealth. And they, not unnaturally, use that wealth mainly for the personal benefit of themselves and their families. And so we’ve started a cycle where those who control all that wealth and power use it to perpetuate the system that benefits them. They use the fantasy of ‘anyone can get rich, even you, and when you get rich you don’t want to be forced to use any of it to pay taxes or support the government, do you?’ And the soothing anodyne of cheap consumer goods to maintains a minimum comfort level even as they drain real wealth— economic security— from the rest of society. Devaluing and disempowering a government that was formed to protect everyone’s ability to benefit from the economy, they divert the resources that should be maintaining our infrastructure into military contracts and sweetheart deals that increase their profits. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Trippah on 08/09/10 at 19:25:44 When 20 of the richest in the world admit they have too big a slice of the pie, and agree to donate a portion of their wealth..that speaks loudly to me..the rich got richer and now have, can you bleieve it, more than enough. While this is generous, we should note that they still retain the power that the money provides..they decide what is good or needed, not a government or a business. Again, not chastising their generousity, just pointing something out. As the man I hate most, H, Kissinger noted, power is the ultimate.;D ;D |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Starlifter on 08/09/10 at 20:11:06 America has some of the stupidest rich people ever. They are hell-bent on returning our country to the gilded age. They want low wages, high unemployment, and low taxes. The middle class will shrink and the truly poor will expand. They have accomplished their goals by three decades of attacking government and Washington, all while using government and Washington to not only guarantee their privilege but to add to it steadily with a rigged tax system. They want all of us trembling in fear of losing crappy jobs, jobs they dole out if you are quiet and meek. They want to bask in the huge difference between their lives and ours. They love it that half the poor and middle class actually serve as foot soldiers for their war on the “lower” classes. Those foot soldiers are anyone who ever voted republican or settled for Democrats who voted like republicans. But these power elite are truly short-sighted and stupid. The world they wish to create cannot last. Had they been satisfied with only limitless wealth and privilege and allowed the middle class to continue, they could have prolonged their position at the top for generations. Their greedy grab for everything without limits on suffering for the other 98% will result in their destruction. They know nothing of history, ancient or recent. From the French Revolution to the Watts riots, we know what is coming. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/10/10 at 05:15:11 Lifter - While, as you know, I respect you as a person, sometimes your sweeping statements about a class of folks leaves me in wonderment. Wealthy people have done more, over especially the last 200 years, to foster the improvement of society that you must realize. Andrew Carnegie funded an entire nationwide public library system, even paying for the buildings as well as the books in them, so everyone could have access to the benefits of reading all sortsof literary, scientific and philosophical works. Henry Ford continually LOWERED the price of early cars to enable the workers in his factories to be able to afford to buy them and enjoy the benefits of auto ownership. In today's age, Bill Gates has gone about a massive give away program for his billions of dollars of wealth, already forewarning his children not to expect to inherit his wealth, but to earn their own way as he did. Warren Buffet has contributed billions to the effort in partnership with Gates. Here in Columbus, Ohio, Les Wexner, founder of the Limited Stores, (Limited, Bath and Body, among other stores) which he began with $5,000 borrowed from his uncle, established and personally funds The Wexner Center for the Performing Arts. Examples of this philanthropy could go on for pages. There are good, and bad, people of every ilk, and financial station in life. To make sweeping allegations as you did, does, in fact, subtract from any impact those arguments may otherwise have. Proponents of class warfare never accomplish anything other than angst. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by bill67 on 08/10/10 at 05:26:42 When Warren Buffet dies what do you think my share of his wealth will be? |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by WebsterMark on 08/10/10 at 06:33:38 well Bill, i would hope your share would be zero. if you think you are entitled to any of his money, you shoudl be ashamed of yourself. Even if you take the cowardly way out and ask Uncle Sam to be your collection agent. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by bill67 on 08/10/10 at 06:40:29 Whos getting the money hes giving a way. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by mick on 08/11/10 at 00:21:02 Jerry and Starlifter, What in your oppinion is middle class ? try and give me an income bracket. It reminds me of a questionare when a hundred people were asked, "Please give us your opinion on how you think of yourself in general" check one, Average above average. below average. 100 answered Average. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by mick on 08/11/10 at 00:48:46 As for me I consider myself above average. there are many of you way smarter than me ,Starlifter, Jerry,Serowbot,midnightrider,to name a few. My income is way lower than all of you ,yet I still consider myself middle class,does that make sense ? When I was working I always had lots of money,did I save any ? Nah,well maybe a little,enough to pay for materials to build my self a one bedroom one bath appartment on my Sisters farm, it will be there's when I die.it did up value the property and my beloved niece will reap the benifits,meanwhile I live rent free,as well as material I got a dish washer,washer and dryer,very nice stove and fridge. plus regular furniture,it will make a great guest house after I'm gone. So with an income of $983 a month from social security and about $180 a month from the few years I worked in England 15 to be exact, on the down side I pay out $219 for medical insurance,$43 a month for car insurance (thats two cars,my Miata full comp.and my ford tourus PLPD.) some how I manage to save $100 a month,and then my B/Day rolls along and there are all kinds of money stuffed into my cards,and then xmas a few weeks later,boy I'm one lucky bastard. Sorry to ramble along,good night, Mick |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/11/10 at 05:13:05 Hi Mick - I'll try to give you my feelings in response to both of your posts. First, intelligence and the amount of formal education one has are not the same. I realize you quit school at 14, but don't for a minute think that makes you less intelligent than one who has a doctorate in his title. Just yesterday, I was talking with a friend about the likes of Henry Ford, a mechanical genius, and the Wright Bros. None of them graduated from high school. Yet, Ford figured out how to make the automobile reliable ( for that day) and also invented the assembly line method of manufacturing, which made complicated machinery affordable to make in large numbers. Obviously, the Wrights were self-taught aero engineers, who figured out that Lillienthal's lift equations were erroneous, corrected them, and made their machine fly when others like DOCTOR Langley could not. As for what is middle class, I don't tie it to a given income number. First, there are too many variations of living expenses across the country. I look at it more as a live style and to some degree, what a person can purchase with his income. For instance, if you live in Manhattan or Los Angeles, it obviously takes a lot more income to have the same standard of living as does a person who lives in a small town in rural Alabama, or even in rural Ohio. I guess to me, middle class means enough income put a decent roof over your head, clothe your family (size of family determines this and most of the expenses) in reasonable attire, feed your family healthy meals and eat out at a moderately priced restaurant once in a while, have a reliable car, or two if both spouses work, have decent health care insurance, and not be worried every night when you go to sleep about how you're going to pay your bills tomorrow. How much does that take for a family of four to enjoy this life style - again, it mostly matters on where you live and what your "likes" are. For instance, we are not "vacation takers". We actually go on a real vacation about once every 5 years or so. But if you think that your family needs the typical "pile everyone in a car, drive 500+ miles, and stay for 10 days" vacation each summer, then that alone costs thousands. We've been fortunate in that I travel a lot in my work, and get a lot of airline miles and hotel points. So when we do go someplace, all I pay for out of pocket is meals and maybe a rental car. So, sorry to beg your question, but there is no way to accurately put a firm number on the amount of income one needs to be middle class. And, there are so many different levels of middle class - from just above the poverty line to just below a luxurious life style that no one would probably agree on a singular definition of what "middle class" is. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by bill67 on 08/11/10 at 05:30:34 Well I can see am just below the poverty line.Wait I did take a 2 year vacation with the US Army,Which had planned activities. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/11/10 at 05:39:56 Bill - I can empathize with your "vacation". I had the same one, but for a lot more than 2 years. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by LostArtist on 08/11/10 at 15:30:47 I consider myself to be just barely middle class, definitely on the low end, under 30k a year but I'm single and have no kids or any other responsibilities that take money, kinda stuck too, if I had a bit more money I could invest it in doing things to get out to help me not be as depressed most of the time, get involved in things that matter to me, photography, other art stuff, be able to afford to self promote my work a bit, and just get out and be more sociable and those things could lead to a better life for me, but I really can't afford any of that but I can afford to live and keep going now I'm working on getting some education to get me out of this rut and it helps to give me hope at least. but I really wouldn't trade my life for the average lifestyle in america, and I like how I've done things so far despite my current financial woes. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by tcreeley on 08/14/10 at 13:33:58 98% of taxpaying Americans have a household income of 200,000 dollars or less. 2% of Americans have an income above that, but the 2% making more than 200,000 dollars yearly, actually control 75% of the wealth in America. These folks are the upper class- the millionaires + billionaires. ;D I think a family of 4 qualifies for reduced school lunches when the household income is around 24,000. Starting school teacher pay is 30,000 a year with 4 years of college in Maine. -New York Times: the deal pays Limbaugh 38 million dollars/year for eight years, plus a 100 million dollar signing bonus. Upper class. Here in Maine, teacher aides get 13,000 a year and no benefits. This is a crazy world. Happy is paying the bills, having enough to eat, get to work, and some time to relax. Saving would be nice - maybe some day. ;) |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by tcreeley on 08/14/10 at 13:42:46 Just in case you missed it!: Rush makes 3 million dollars a month. - just under a million a week, 170,000 a day? 20,000 dollars an hour, 300 dollars a minute, 50 dollars a second - just for slow blink! check the math for any mistakes! You get the idea - What a crazy world we're living in! I think I'd pay that much to shut him up! 8-) |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by mick on 08/14/10 at 16:17:12 66716077777E776B120 wrote:
his supporters are all tea baggers.and about 80% of this web site also suport him. In an interview a few years ago the interviewer asked him if he would do his show but this time on the side of democrats ,he said " he11 yes just point me to the money,that is all he cares about,he doesn't give a sh1t about polotics, he only stays up to date because that is his schtick,it's all a big con game ,and the repubs love him,and fall for it,suckers ! |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/16/10 at 04:13:41 Mick - He's no different than any other good actor, who can play whatever role is assigned at the time. I can't stand his show, even though, as you know, I'm an arch conservative. Do you remember William E. Buckley, the now deceased conservative intellectual from Yale University? He was my kind of spokesman for our causes - soft spoken, yet he had a dagger for a tongue. No one ever doubted his intelligence or dedication. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by bill67 on 08/16/10 at 06:13:44 Maria Sharapova the tennis player makes over $20,000,000 a year.I see nothing wrong with that,If she has a bad year the tax payers want have to bail her out.And you don't have to buy any products that she advertises. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/16/10 at 06:54:00 Bill - I've never had a problem with the money paid to professional athletes in all sports. I think of it simply - in all of the normal team sports like baseball, basketball, football, etc. two things matter. First, there are only a couple of hundred people in the entire world who have the talent to play at the very top levels. That's out of how many billion people on the planet? When you are one of those folks, you should be able to get as much as the market will bear. Also, careers are short. I forget the actual number of years the average NFL player gets to play, but I think it's close to 5 years - that's all. And the average player isn't getting the millions per year that we read about - the number of these super rich players is only a very few per team, usually only 4 or 5 players. One of my friends in my church mens' club played linebacker for the Oakland Raiders. His carrer was less than 10 games when a bad knee injury ended his pro football dream. The one sport I love, Formula One racing, is a good example. Only about 25 people in the entire world are good enough to make a start for each race. Even in NASCAR or IRL, the num,bers aren't a whole lot higher. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/16/10 at 07:51:44 There is another Yahoo article this morning about millionaires. 1. The top 1% of income pays 40% of all taxes, and that number will go up this year with changes to the tax code. Millionaires are not tax evaders. 2. 80% of them are not retired - they go to work every day for at least 8 hours - many work a longer day.. 3. Only 10% inherited their wealth - 90% are self made. 4. The greatest percentage of them drive a Ford. Next preference is a Cadillac, next is a Lincoln. All of this blows a lot of the myths. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by babyhog on 08/16/10 at 10:00:34 606F6369626F64686F786D6F780A0 wrote:
I'm most surprised at #3. I would have figured more would have been inherited wealth. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by WebsterMark on 08/16/10 at 10:11:14 Did you ever watch that show "Dirty Jobs" with Mike Rowe? I read an interview with him and he made note that many of the owners of these small companies that do these dirty jobs are multi millionaires and work hard every day. It's a myth that most inherit their wealth. Not that it doesn't happen, but its not the norm. By the way, for anyone in favor of the death tax for those evil rich guys, does anyone believe for one second that if John Kerry dies Jan 1st, the US government will suddenly become 50 million dollars richer? Nonsense….. he hid his boat to avoid taxes for crying out loud so there’s no way Uncle Sam is getting any of his money. The super rich get around death taxes all the time. It’s the family farms that get wiped out. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/16/10 at 10:23:54 Several years ago an IRS agent told me that the biggest area of outright income tax evasion is among very small businesses that deal in cash. Number one on their hit list is small barber shops. Fairly low priced transactions, almost always in cash, and it's very easy for the barber to put a $20 dollar bill in his pocket and not declare it. After that, small neighborhood independent restaurants and small neighborhood independent dry cleaners are also on the list, due to the same reasons. Larger establishments don't cheat. High income people don't deal in cash, and do have their returns prepared by real CPA firms, who aren't about to sign their names to a fraudulent return. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by babyhog on 08/16/10 at 10:46:32 I love Dirty Jobs!! And yea, I can see cash businesses pocketing as much as they can get away with. Running a business is hard. And all the little dollar/cash transactions probably seem like just reward for all the effort. (never done it, not condoning it, just guessing) My father did run a dry cleaning business when I was little. I have no idea about the financials, as it closed in my teen years, I think. But he worked hard, and didn't get rich. And I guess my amazement with the inherited number is more because those who do well tend to pass it along to their children (if those children don't snort it up their noses, etc.) I'm not surprised that its lopsided, I just would have guess it more 70-30ish, even 65-35ish. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by LostArtist on 08/16/10 at 12:12:20 I'm sorry, I'm not going to feel sorry for rich people. sorry, not going to happen so quit trying to convince me that all we need to do is let the rich people keep all their money so they can oh so generously buy stuff at their whim and eventually have that trickle down on the rest of us poor slobs. I'm not convinced by that economic theory. I'm not blind to the consequences of the up coming tax increases either, it would have been wise for Bush to have made it a point to make those tax cuts economically viable by cutting back on government spending while he was in office, I would like to see the current administration also quit the spending spree it is on. I don't believe that you can depend on trickle down to create jobs, only increased demand creates jobs, tax cut trickle down can increase demand but by no means does it have to, some people will just save the money, some good managers will find a way to push their current employees harder and get more out of them to increase companies profits before hiring increases. this is just how it is. Also after 9-10 years of the bush tax cuts, it still didn't deter the financial shape we are in now because other things (both democratic housing bs and lax republican regulation among other things) counteracted any good those tax cuts might have done. with all that said, I don't feel anger or any animosity towards rich people, but I'm not going to be persuaded to feel pity for them either. or bloat their already obviously important role in our society. Also, tax cuts for the rich seems like a tortoise and hare kinda thing, where the rich want a spur in their pants like a hare instead of a slow growth that giving middle class and poor people tax breaks might create. Basically, I don't believe that the answer to our economy is tax cuts or government spending. this should be a slow hard climb out of recession, and many many other things are wrong with how our economy is working that tax cuts is barely an answer for the problems we are in. I also have a problem giving people preferential treatment because they are more important, I don't kiss ass don't think our government should either. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/16/10 at 12:28:40 LA - I didn't post those facts to generate any sympathy toward the "rich", whoever they are. I simply was repeating facts disclosed on Yahoo, which most folks will agree tends to be liberal in the news they choose to print. Again, I was just trying to so that most millionaires aren't "trust babies" who pay no tax and hang around a country club all day, and drive a Mercedes to and from. None of these common stereotypes are true. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by buttgoat1 on 08/16/10 at 13:07:52 6F4C50576251574A5057230 wrote:
so, you talk like a fiscal conservative yet still bash "teabaggers"? what bandwagon are you on? |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by LostArtist on 08/16/10 at 13:50:57 I bash teabaggers on the way they use their rhetoric, nazi signs and scare tactics and the rage that accompanies their protests are not appealing to me at all, now this is just from what I've seen portrayed on both fox news and other networks and the stubbornness of them as reported in the editorial letters of our local newspaper. but when speaking with conservatives on fiscal issues I'm basically okay with them. Just don't yell and scream and expect me not to want to fight you. basically, I'd say I'm a social libertarian, a fiscal conservative, and anti being an aggressor in war but I think we should have a strong military yet be wary of the military industrial complex and I believe in government sponsored dreams when necessary like NASA, I'm also compassionate and not opposed to our government helping out those in true need but I"m against the abuse of that system that often corrupts the view of it and those that use it. I also recognize that the system set up to for helping is extremely flawed and needs reworking. and being a fiscal conservative has nothing to do with tax cuts, it's about spending wisely on what this government needs and not on tax cuts to get re-elected. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by buttgoat1 on 08/16/10 at 14:00:22 and yet the liberals are so nice? after all of the Bush bashing, Cheney hating, Palin smearing that has gone on?? And that is from the people you voted for, not the everyday folks. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/16/10 at 15:02:14 LA - A bit more response to your post: "Trickle down" is an old phrase first used by Hubert Humphrey in the late 1960s. It really has no meaning, other than to generate hard feelings. I have no sure fire answer to stimulating demand, yet we must stimulate demand to stimulate manufacturing, home building, and other major sectors of the economy. What I do know is that minor tax cuts for lower earning people, while politically popular, have no real effect. As I said earlier, giving some poor souls on the edge of poverty another $10 per week in the net paychecks doesn't get the job done. Since I'm also no expert in banking regulation, I really don't know what effect teh "stress tests" that the Obama administration has put upon banks have done. I do know that the tightened lending standards have hurt consumer financing. One of my friends is a Ford dealer in a small town. He has told me that the traffic thru his dealership never really fell all that much, but over the past 18 months or so, the main problem he's had is that he just can't get financing for the lower 25% - 30% of what would be new car customers, like he could 3 or 4 years ago. These aren't jobless customers, but just folks with a little less income, or a little poorer credit score than is required now; people who could get a new car 3 or 4 years ago, but can't today. We need to get banks lending again, whatever that takes to do it responsibly. I don't advocate going back to the "liars loans" for houses that started all of this mess 5 years ago, but there has to be a reasonable middle ground over the too strict standards of today. I know in my own business that we could sell a few more airplanes if lending were lightened up some. Then, normal people, with reasonable jobs need to get off of the "fear wagon", and live normally. Again, I don't mean reckless borrowing, but ole FDR said it best when he told the nation in 1932 that "all we have to fear is fear itself". I know many people who are plainly hoarding money, not replacing old cars, basically not buying much of anything that they absolutely don't have to buy - that mentality will never spur a recovery. Perhaps the Bush tax cuts do need to expire - we've got to do something to get the national deficit somewhat under control. And, letting them expire really won't hit even upper income people very hard. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by LostArtist on 08/16/10 at 15:06:51 buttgoat, I see the bashing from both sides, you seem to be blind to the conservative side and think only the liberals are mean. it's always the party that is out of power that is mean. Also, liberals seem to be the angriest about wars and social issues which I am more likely to agree with them on, so I am probably more tolerant and lenient on their BS while conservatives seem to voice more anger about tax cuts and social issues that I disagree with them on so I am less tolerant of and you might be more tolerant of. Liberals also seem to be more mocking and jokery while conservatives seem to be more likely to pull out a gun and use such props for power plays. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by bill67 on 08/16/10 at 15:20:43 Jerry give a poor person $10 more he would be in heaven,Give a rich man $10000 he tell you keep your money you cheap skate. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/16/10 at 15:33:30 Bill - What in the world has that comment got to do with what we're talking about? We're talking a about stimulating the economy. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by LostArtist on 08/16/10 at 15:44:53 Jerry, I appreciate your response. I am also appreciating the 14 bucks more a pay check I get now than I did before thanks to Obama's stimulus thing, even though I disagree with the way the stimulus was done in that bill. that 14 bucks a check actually gave me just enough more to finance a motorcycle I otherwise probably wouldn't have gotten or would have had to extend my payments for and would have been uncomfortable getting. I think the banks are doing the right thing by denying more people those loans. It's putting what people think they can afford back in line with what they really can afford. also if you give less to more, the more people will probably just spend the less money instead of saving it. anyway, I appreciate the open debate. thanks |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/16/10 at 15:55:14 LA - I'm sure not against responsible stewardship of one's money, and am not against responsible lending by banks. But, what are your thoughts aobut how to stimulate those major sectors of the economy like manufacturing and home building, along with commercial construction as well? A rise in construction means more bulldozers, more cranes, etc. that all take higher paid production workers to produce. The good paying jobs are in those fields, not in flipping burgers at a new Mickey D's. To me it's: Demand and responsible financing = production = good paying jobs in production = more demand as those workers now have some money = more production. Seriously, is that too simple an outlook? |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by mick on 08/16/10 at 16:31:51 Jerry et-al, you know I make less than most of you but I have found the best way to by a motorcycle or a car is to figure out the payments ,less what you can get for your presant vehicle,every month just put that money in a box under the bed, and get yourself a pickle jar and throw your change in every day,before to much longer Wallah you have your money for that shiney new bike or car,or a later model than you have now,it is so sweet not to have payments. If you cant afford to save that much,then you cant afford a bike or car that you want. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by mick on 08/16/10 at 16:36:24 5E5D5C515349300 wrote:
piglet,you love dirty jobs ? you know my real name is Mike Rowe. I wish I was the other one,he makes big money and he's way younger. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by LostArtist on 08/16/10 at 16:47:06 Jerry, That is a totally reasonable approach, however I'm for that happening naturally without government intervention, no tax cuts or stimulus. we've been riding too many bubbles. unfortunately we sold out our manufacturing jobs a long time ago for various reasons and now we are headed towards a service based economy. we've replaced the manufacturing jobs with marketing jobs somewhat. the idea people are the ones making the money, however, that is getting harder and harder because of various interpretations of copyright and patents especially in the digital areas, I think in the end it's a from the bottom up approach that'll work, so that burger flipping job can afford a lil of something to help push demand, a cultural change would be helpful too, so we don't all have to stand alone all the time, in Japan and China and lots of places in Europe it is not uncommon to find families living together for many generations but in America it's a stand on your own after you are 18 kinda attitude. I don't know, it's going to be a long fight out of this, there is no easy way and I'm by no means qualified to even guess what to do next, I get up, go to work and try to spend less than I take in, so far I'm making it, not by a lot but I'm not afraid of next month. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Starlifter on 08/16/10 at 20:34:09 Source: Washington Post GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion to deficit, panel finds. By Lori Montgomery Washington Post Staff Writer. Thursday, August 12, 2010. A Republican plan to extend tax cuts for the rich would add more than $36 billion to the federal deficit next year -- and transfer the bulk of that cash into the pockets of the nation's millionaires, according to a congressional analysis released Wednesday. New data from the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation show that households earning more than $1 million a year would reap nearly $31 billion in tax breaks under the GOP plan in 2011, for an average tax cut per household of about $100,000. The analysis, requested by Democrats on the tax-writing House Ways and Means Committee, comes as debate heats up over tax cuts enacted during the Bush administration, most of which are scheduled to expire at the end of this year. Republicans want to extend all the cuts, which would cost the Treasury Department $238 billion in 2011, according to the taxation committee. President Obama and congressional Democrats have vowed to extend the cuts only for families making less than $250,000 a year and individuals making less than $200,000 -- 98 percent of American taxpayers -- in a plan that would add about $202 billion to next year's deficit. Given the soaring national debt, many economists deem both proposals unaffordable. Even some Republicans, including Reagan administration budget chief David Stockman and former Fed chairman Alan Greenspan, have urged lawmakers to let them expire and allow income tax rates to pop back up to their levels during the Clinton administration. Obama campaigned on a pledge not to raise taxes for the middle class, however. And with midterm congressional elections in November, few politicians in either party are calling for full repeal. Instead, lawmakers are gearing up for a battle when they return to Washington in September over the small fraction of the tax breaks that benefit the nation's richest families. Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20... ... And so the ignorant teabaggers campaign to keep the tax cuts for the rich while their own savings, pensions, jobs et al goes down the toilet. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by LostArtist on 08/16/10 at 21:03:33 they should let them all expire |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by verslagen1 on 08/16/10 at 21:18:50 what's the tax rate for million dollar households? 35% so that will drop them down to ~20% evil GOP |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by verslagen1 on 08/16/10 at 22:21:05 something stinks with their numbers 36 billion that's 36,000,000,000 right? and ave. is 100,000 36,000,000,000 / 100,000 = 360,000 census says 130 million homes in america 360,000 / 130,000,000 = 0.3% and if you count multiple earners in each house 360,000 / 260,000,000 = 0.15% I wonder how many are politicians in congress? |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by mick on 08/17/10 at 00:07:11 All we need is a third party, Democrat,republican,and communist party, if you are all pissed off at the present situation vote communist,if they get in the rich won't have it very long,and everyone will go to work,we will all have the same pay, great incentive a guys ? "Workers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains" Please don't get upset guys I'm kidding,sh1t it's bad enough being an atheist, if I was a commie you would hate me more. Years ago I worked for London Transport as a bus driver,every week when we got paid ,we would go to window 1 and get our pay ,in cash. The next window was the transport union were we paid our dues,we would also get out free edition of the Daily Worker, a communist news paper. I had got myself a new job as a private chauffeur to a Movie producer, "Harry Michaels" I had a few weeks before starting so I thought I would have some fun. I did not stop at the union window to pay my dues, they figured I was hard up and couldn't afford them that week.The next week I did the same thing, this time they had a few union guys waiting for me outside, I said "Hi guys whats up ?" they asked why I didn't pay my union dues, I simply said "I don't want to" they started to get very close with a grim faces,at that very moment a few buds came out and asked me if everything was ok, the union goons shyed away ,the next week I quit on a thursday ,and got the flock out of there. A few years later London transport was an open shop ,join the union if you want to, don't join if you don't, Remember we all had a health plan,the only thing the union would do is put up a fight if you got canned,believe me if you got canned from that job you deserved it. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by babyhog on 08/17/10 at 05:20:02 6B6F656D726E636A6F6B637F060 wrote:
piglet,you love dirty jobs ? you know my real name is Mike Rowe. I wish I was the other one,he makes big money and he's way younger.[/quote] Yep, I knew that was your name too. That Mike Rowe is 48 (according to wikipedia, and younger than I would have guessed) so he's a little younger than you. And I'm sure he's got more money than all of us put together. I love how he will just dig in and do anything they let him do, no matter how disgusting, scary or difficult it is. To connect that show to this thread, I think it shows that the nasty jobs have to get done too, and someone has to do them. Some of those people struggle to get by daily, and some make fortunes doing things that other wouldn't dream of doing. Inspirational it is.... |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by WebsterMark on 08/17/10 at 06:29:33 Star: GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion to deficit, panel finds. Wouldn't that headline be more correct if it read: "GOP plans to stop governement theft of citizen's money to fund programs people somehow managed to live without years ago" |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by LostArtist on 08/17/10 at 07:10:41 063433222534231C30233A510 wrote:
if only, however the GOP has never stopped any of those programs. . . |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/17/10 at 07:45:04 Assuming that math is correct, what % of the total national budget is $36 Billion? A drop in the bucket. If those tax savings spur the economy, it's a very worthwhile investment. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by buttgoat1 on 08/17/10 at 09:47:39 how about overpaid federal emplyees dragging the country down... "Federal workers have been awarded bigger average pay and benefit increases than private employees for nine years in a row. The compensation gap between federal and private workers has doubled in the past decade." http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/2010-08-10-1Afedpay10_ST_N.htm and all I got was a paycut and more workload thanks to layoffs........ |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/17/10 at 10:12:40 I don't know much aobut Federal employees' compensation except for one area - FAA, with whom I deal almost weekly in my practice. General aviation inspectors can easily earn over $100K per year. Not too shabby for a job that just requires a high school diploma. Many former airline pilots, flight instructors, and aviation business owners are now FAA employees, and others are salivating for the chance to get hired. I actually know one of them who is a veterinarian - yep, he gave up a vet practice to be an FAA inspector. All of the Federal holidays off, good vacation and health care benefits, and that wonderful guaranteed government retirement. |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by mick on 08/17/10 at 16:59:01 2629252F2429222E293E2B293E4C0 wrote:
You would think a guy that took the time and effort to become a vet, I assume because he loves animals,would stick with it. could it be that his business was so bad ,maybe because he was lousy at his job, he quit so he could get a nice safe government job ??? |
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Title: Re: One reason the rich matter Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/18/10 at 05:36:45 Mick - I know this guy personally. He learned to fly after he became a vet, and just, plain fell in love with aviation. He practiced as a vet for about 15 years, made some money, saved and invested well, and then went off to pursue the endeavor he loved. |
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