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Finn Hammer's Savage (Read 2070 times)
FinnHammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #225 - 04/11/24 at 11:02:17
 
About the position of the release plate with the stack fully compressed between sleve hub and pressure disk, here is a pic. The gap between vernier caliper and the button head bolt is 1.6mm.
This leaves 3.6mm of plate wear before the bolt heads can interfere with the  shaft of the release arm.

How much do clutch plates wear typically, over say 10K miles? The ones originally had no measurable wear after 16K miles, and that was with a slipping clutch. (slipping with my hands on the throttle, not sure about the previous owners Smiley  )

Wow, Loctite 592 arrived today. Assembly of engine can start!
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #226 - 04/11/24 at 19:35:34
 
Finn, I am lovin that vernier caliper.  Accurate to within .05 mm, sweeeeet.

Your stack height is .020" (0.5 mm) more than mine.  That explains some of your problems.  All these small variations combine to have a significant effect.  That .020" increase in stack height decreases your pressure disk travel by roughly 27% of what is required.  Was the wave washer assembly in the stack when you measured the stack height?

I love your machine work on the pressure disk and sleeve hub.  Your solution for holding the pressure disk in your 3-jaw is clever.  Nice job.

Your input shaft bore is pretty ugly.  I don't know how an expandable ream will work on that hardened shaft.  This is what a normal shaft looks like.  The bore is .485" (12.32 mm).  As you can see, surface finish is very smooth.  You are already .003" over that.  After you finish reaming it's gonna be way oversize, and it might still need some honing to improve the finish.  
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #227 - 04/11/24 at 19:47:01
 
You might want to consider an appropriate ball hone to polish things up.  You should also be looking for o-rings with a larger cross section, maybe metric 2.0 mm or SAE 3/32".  An SAE o-ring that is 3/8" ID x 3/32" cross section might be good.  The SAE dash number for that particular size is -110.  You may need to widen the groove a bit to accommodate the larger cross section.

Surface finish is important for this particular o-ring.  It moves in & out so you need a very fine finish in the bore.  The seal is important too.  If it leaks, you will lose pressure to the trans idler bearings and the clutch bushing.

A ball hone will do a good job on the reamed surface.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #228 - 04/11/24 at 19:49:28
 
The groove in the push piece is .100" wide.  You may need to open that up a bit.  Maybe widen it to .110" or .120".  Given the sliding application, you may need to do a little trial and error fitup.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #229 - 04/11/24 at 19:56:30
 
One thing you need to be thinking about is your hub nut.  That nut is extremely thin (.238").  And 50% of the external threads on the shaft are missing due to the splines.  Your extra washer along with the longer DR hub take that nut all the way out to the end of the shaft.  I put mine together with an extra 2mm washer to see how the nut is positioned.  I don't think it even achieves one nut-thickness of thread engagement (when you consider the chamfers).  You need to check yours.  If you don't have a bit of shaft sticking out of the nut, you need to consider a counterbore in the sleeve hub.  You don't want to damage threads on that shaft.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #230 - 04/12/24 at 04:35:24
 
Mike,

Lots of usefull input as usual.
I have left out the so called wave washer from all my work up to now. I am still debating with myself, should I just do as yourself and at least also Dave, and put those 2 washers in, and miss most of the friction from the outher face of the narrow friction disk, or should I do the scientific thing, omit them, and experience the lousy clutch operation that demonstrates the need for them.

Still does not at all make any sense to  what they can possibly benefit, or the mechanism involved in making them work to the benefit of the clutch  engagement.

Yes, perhaps a good idea to skim a couple millimeters off the sleeve hub to benefit the nut engaging the shaft.

Btw. regarding the hardness of the shaft, I tested it with a file, as I always do when contemplating "going at" a potentially hardened workpiece with HSS tooling. The shaft is not hardened inside the hole: not a surprise!

Shafts like these are not hardened throughout. If they were, they would be prone to splinter during shock loads. Instead high strength and ductility is needed, how do they do it?

They make the shaft from a steel type formulated for case hardening. This means that the steel is alloyed with chrome and molybdenum, but has low carbon content, below 0.3%C or thereabouts. It is the carbon content that makes it possible to harden the steel.

So they machine the shaft to final dimensions where no particularly fine surface finish is needed, but leave 0.2mm where grinding will be needed after quench hardening. They leave the diameter a couple of mm thicker in places where no surface hardness is desired. This will be turned off later.
Unhardenable areas can also be created by covering the part partly by for example copper, you probably still remember those beautifull copper plated conrods on the A7?

After this, the shaft is submerged in a special salt solution which is heated to some 500-600 degrees centigrade, and this allows carbon from the salt to diffuse into the outher layers of the steel. It is the iron portion of the steel it enters. The iron molecules are organised in a cubic structure, meaning that there is an iron molecule in the corner of each cube. The carbon molecules then wander into this lattice, so that it is situated on one of the faces of the cube. In this state, the material is called cubic-face oriented, this is the normal state at elevated temperatures. And the percentage of carbon will be above 0.9% possibly 1.2%
When the carbon has entered into a debth of around a millimeters deep, the shaft is taken out of the salt bath, and allowed to cool slowly. During this slow cool down period, the carbon molecules wander into the center of the iron cubes, and the material is now cubic-center-oriented, which is the norm at room temberature.

It is now still relatively soft, and surprisingly nice to machine, if this should be desired. For example, if there are areas of the part that should be left unhardened, it is now time to turn away the layer with high carbon content.

The hardening process can take place now, by heating the shaft to red hot, and quenching it in oil or water. During the heat up, the carbon moleculed wander back into the face-oriented position, and during the quench, they cannot return to cubic center orientation, so the stresses caused by the carbon molecules being trapped outside their normal position inside the iron cubic structure is causing the hardness.

It is now needed to anneal the material, to avoid cracks to form, you can say it is a calibration of the position of carbon in the lattice that is taking place. The shaft is heated to a couple houndred centigrade, some of the hardness is lost, and much ductility is regained.

Finally the part goes to the grinding machines to produce the fit and finish for the gears to mate to.

In the case of my shaft, apparently the hole was either shielded in the salt bath, or it was drilled afterwards. But they either forgot the reamer, or they used a too large drill, rendering the reamer inefficient it being too small for the bore.

So I do not worry too much, the adjusteble reamer will produce a superiour surface, I am confident about that.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #231 - 04/13/24 at 15:20:12
 
Don't know much about metallurgy, but I'm pretty sure you will end up with a bunch more clearance than design.  By design, it already has pretty generous clearance (.012") between the push piece and the input shaft.  I can see by the wear marks in my photo of the push piece that it engages with the shaft about .75".  That will help keep it straight when the release cam cycles the push piece.  But that generous clearance still allows the assembly to tip a bit.  IMO, that's what the wave washer is intended to mitigate.  The wave washer helps keep the pressure disk perpendicular to the input shaft, so the pressure is evenly distributed around the drive plates as the clutch engages.

Dave & I have both experienced rough engagement when the wave washer is left out.  In both cases, installation of the wave washer assembly completely eliminated the chatter, squealing, and grabbiness.

Once you ream out the input shaft, the clearance will be increased significantly, and the push piece will be allowed to skew and tip more than desired.  I wouldn't even consider leaving out the wave washer.  Not a big deal if you do leave it out since it is easy enough to reinstall.  As long as you use the special drive plate (9) you won't change your stack height.  But I think we have already established that the clutch doesn't work correctly without the wave washer.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #232 - 04/13/24 at 15:28:16
 
When you ream and polish the input shaft, you want to make sure that chips and abrasive debris don't migrate into the shaft.  One thing that will help is to feed compressed air into the trans oil supply.  You can do that by removing the special orifice and blowing compressed air into the feed hole. You should blow the air continuously during the reaming and polishing.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #233 - 04/13/24 at 15:29:20
 
The orifice just pulls out.  Here you see the orifice on a pin gage.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #234 - 04/15/24 at 08:33:03
 
The hole made by the reamer turned out to be 12.35mm, so probably I made an error measuring it earlier. A pinkie finger inserted into it confirmed that the surface finish is A1, something that the pictures don't seem to convey, but trust this old toolmaker.
The nut overhangs the shaft by 0.15mm, so I see no urgent reason to trim the hub down. Clutch is good to go, with so called "Wave Washer" and all. It will be mounted with stock springs, since my left hand hurts too much with the DR springs in it.
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« Last Edit: 04/15/24 at 09:51:13 by FinnHammer »  

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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #235 - 04/15/24 at 08:33:49
 
Piston is in,
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #236 - 04/15/24 at 08:34:02
 
So is the DR650 cam, here at TDC
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #237 - 04/15/24 at 08:34:29
 
So enginewise, this is where I stand. The cam chain push rod will be replaced by one made from stainless steel.
The main hold up is the rockers, which will ship from Holland on friday, so by the end of next week I should be on the road.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #238 - 04/15/24 at 08:35:00
 
But I want to talk about the induction system. This picture holds a lot of information.
Here in Denmark, it is near impossible to source a plastic (or metal for that matter), tube elbow unless it is either 50mm or 75mm PVC or PolyPropylene. I went with the 75mm PP elbow.
To join a 64mm carburettor to a 75mm elbow, you have to source a hose in the form of a truncated cone, not easy. So I made my own.
On the picture in white, you see a paper template. I used half of the template to mark out copper sheet, 1mm thick. From this sheet, I made the mandrell shown. I also cut 1mm EPDM rubber using the same template.  (I have a lot left over from a roofing project). Wrapped it around the mandrell one turn, then gluing it with isocyanoacrylate glue as I progressed the second turn. This produced the black hose shown, which fits great.
What You also see is the multicutter saw which is invaluable for cutting the filter case. I don't know how I could have done without it. First plug the hole with a piece of wood, and use a circular saw to make the round hole, then start gouging away with the multicutter.

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« Last Edit: 04/15/24 at 11:31:32 by FinnHammer »  

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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #239 - 04/15/24 at 08:38:42
 
The filter fits neatly inside the molested filter case. To my great relief, there was no need to cut the case open in the back, facing the rear wheel.
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