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Finn Hammer's Savage (Read 2062 times)
DragBikeMike
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #255 - 04/17/24 at 13:31:13
 
I have to admit, if I were in your position, I would be tempted to leave it as-is.  There seems to be little risk of a collision.  Your visual estimation of deck height indicates that you have more quench clearance than I had on my 94mm.  Your cam has less TDC lift and overlap than my 94mm had.  Seems like there should be enough room, and you can turn the thing through carefully before starting it.

But you don't know what the quench is and that's why you installed the flat-top in the first place....and.....there's Murphy's law.  I think I would check the clearances.

Regarding the springs.  As I already mentioned, things get very close with the flat-top piston.  Loss of valve control is a real concern.  You have a used engine with used valve springs.  A weak spring can kill that motor just as bad as a direct mechanical interference issue.  You should check your spring pressure at installed height (1.300").  You want the spring assembly (inner & outer) to exert at least 55 lbs at installed height.  That would be with the stock retainer.  You also want to make sure that the springs are installed with the close pitch end down against the head.

Compounding the close clearance issue is the new potential for stratospheric RPM.  You have set your engine up with a lot more flow.  From the free-flowing airbox to the high-flow muffler and everything in between, you have given you motor the ability to rev.  The valve springs are critical.  
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #256 - 04/17/24 at 13:39:35
 
It's a shame that the EDPM doesn't tolerate the fuel.  I would be careful with the elbow also.  My ABS elbow was in service for a very long time, and then it just failed.  I was surprised.  A big chunk of plastic running through the intake valves could have been bad.

I tested the new PVC elbow for about one week, but I still don't trust it completely.  I inspect it every time I do a service on the bike.  It's been in there about 2.5 years now.  So far so good.

This failure occurred with no warning.  Seemed like one day it was good and the next it had failed completely.  And after I removed the elbow, it continued to deteriorate on the workbench.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #257 - 04/17/24 at 13:41:01
 
After sitting on the workbench for a fairly long time I picked it up and it just fell apart.
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LANCER
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #258 - 04/17/24 at 19:22:49
 
Must have been handicapped when it was born.
They depart this life early for sure.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #259 - 04/18/24 at 11:53:37
 
One thing is assuming that things will be ok, and it is fine too, particularly if you have some background to base assumptions on. My background is flaky to say the least, so for me, knowing is better by far.

In short, I decided to follow good advice and check both quench clearance and valve -piston ditto.

The cylinder stud tool was in for a busy day, and it came in right handy.
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FinnHammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #260 - 04/18/24 at 11:54:08
 
The first step was to measure deck height properly, and the vernier caliper said piston is 0.8mm below cylinder top surface.

I am no expert in terminology, but does that mean deck height of -0.8mm?

This is with an uncompressed base gasket.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #261 - 04/18/24 at 11:54:30
 
Next is measure quench clearance with feeler gauge and solder tin.
I was expecting around 1.5mm clearance, so I used the cam chain sprocket washer, cut in half, for 1.02mm thick feeler gauge, and 1mm solder tin as compressible calibration element.

A crude selection of tool, but 1.02mm is 1.02mm no matter where the strip of metal originates.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #262 - 04/18/24 at 11:55:27
 
Then it is just a matter of attaching the cylinder head to cylinder, torque the bolts to spec, and turn the engine back and forth over TDC a couple of times, disassemble again and see what gives. It was obvious to me that the solder had been compressed a lot, because the piston did not pass ovet TDC without a bit of effort. not massive, just enough to indicate that the solder had been flattened thoroughly.

Therefore I was not surprised when I saw this:
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #263 - 04/18/24 at 11:56:38
 
Checking with the micrometer read 1.13mm quench clearance. That equals 0.044". Spot on since it is probably a bit less due to the lack of further compressibility of the tin.

So far so good. I am getting my quench all right!

Next thing is place clay on top of piston and assemble the top once again, this time totally with functional cam and tappets in spec.

When I started this checking procedure I was wary of the tedium I anticipated, but when I got going, I started to really enjoy the procedure, learning small tricks along the way, that make assembly easier. It started to feel like a love affair with the engine.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #264 - 04/18/24 at 11:57:35
 
First set tappets to zero clearance, to get valves as close as possible to the piston, then rotate engine past TDC a couple times.  

After that, tear the engine down to the piston top and check the clay for interference.

Things are looking safe and sound, and it only took around 2 hours in total, hours well spent for certainty instead of guessing.

I only have to check the valve springs for pressure and reverse a couple of them, then the engine can go together for good.
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« Last Edit: 04/19/24 at 09:04:31 by FinnHammer »  

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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #265 - 04/18/24 at 11:58:58
 
I also had time to talk to a guy in the industry, in a company that specialises in tube and fittings for agressive fluids. He could recognise the ABS plastic failiure as a probable thing to happen, but he also said that PVC is not all that bad with petrol.
I will buy some corner bends made from polyetylene, and that should keep me happy. BUNA rubber sheet is on the way also
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« Last Edit: 04/18/24 at 13:25:51 by FinnHammer »  

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #266 - 04/19/24 at 11:22:24
 
Thanks for all the pics Finn.  Looks like you have plenty of clearance between the valves and piston, and the quench clearance looks good too.

I'm not sure how you arrived at the 0.8 mm negative deck and then ended up with .044" quench clearance.  The head gasket should be .028" and when combined with .031" (0.8 mm) negative deck you end up with .059 quench, but the real test is the lead wire.  That's the real deal.  I agree that it should end up a little less than .044" given how much you crushed the lead (you can almost see through it).

Your valve-to-piston clearance looks to be more than what I had.  I'm not sure why, but Lancer previously mentioned that I have an early prototype of the 94mm flat top piston.  I believe that Wiseco made some changes to the valve reliefs on the 97mm flat top, but I don't know if they did something similar to the 94mm.  Hey Lancer, if you are following this, did Wiseco increase the reliefs on the 94mm also?

I must apologize, I have forgotten what country you reside.  However, if you want an easy fix for your elbow and air boot problem, you can purchase those items off eBay, and they ship to both the Netherlands and Denmark.  The street elbow (spigot x hub) requires a short section of 2" pipe to set it up with a spigot fit on both ends.  If you can find a spigot x spigot would probably be better, but I can assure you the spigot x hub fits perfectly.  The street elbow has a larger radius so it will flow much better than a standard 90 degree elbow, and the required length for the air boot is reduced significantly.  Hopefully these two links will be helpful.

Elbow

[url]2" PVC 90 Degree Street Elbow Fitting In Wall Central Vacuum Pipe Suction Tube | eBay[/url]


Rubber Coupling

[url]Flexible PVC Rubber Coupling Connectors with Stainless Steel Clamps 1"in-8"in | eBay[/url]

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #267 - 04/19/24 at 11:25:33
 
Let's try again on those links.  Not sure why they aren't active.

[url]2" PVC 90 Degree Street Elbow Fitting In Wall Central Vacuum Pipe Suction Tube | eBay[/url]

[url]Flexible PVC Rubber Coupling Connectors with Stainless Steel Clamps 1"in-8"in | eBay[/url]
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #268 - 04/19/24 at 11:28:27
 
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #269 - 04/19/24 at 11:31:56
 
Just dawned on me, I ran a bigger cam in my 94mm flat top.  That would account for a little bit of the disparity between our clay checks.
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