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Finn Hammer's Savage (Read 1994 times)
FinnHammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #15 - 11/14/23 at 10:34:33
 
Dave, Mike,
Thanks for your comments. The reason for my plan of going one step further than the DR650 hub +1plate mod is, that I seem to remember reading that when the silent muffler entered the equation, even the DR650+ clutch started to slip.Then again, I am prone to overkill, and the stock clutch is already slipping in an unmodified engine.

I surely don't intend to diss your experiences, you have both been into this game for over a decade, so  I will probably just stick to the stock modification with one plate extra on a DR650 hub, and the DR650 springs.I already have the Sneazy cams ready.

If I do proceed to try these special metal discs, I will have them vater jet cut, or perhaps laser cut, from 3mm thick steel plate. Mount in the lathe in a custom designed chuck and turn each side one millimeter. This may have to be done simultaneously on both sides, to acheive proper parallel faces, with a custom cutting tool, but I am a toolmaker, so not to worry too much about that.

One thing I do not understand, is the function of the so called wave washer. For one, in my book, it is not a wave washer at all, it is a disc spring, and a pretty stiff one at that.
A real wave washer between each of all the metal discs, weak enough to be compressed easilly by the coil springs, but strong enough to separate the discs during clutch disengagement, now, that would make sense, but the disc spring as it is, leaves me with out a clue of what it's function can be.
I seem to recall some talk in the club house of Yamaha Club AArhus, late one evening, back in 1969, about some clutches that had an o-ring between the metal discs, just a tad bigger in diametre than the friction disc thickness, designed to separate the clutch plates during disengagement, but I cannot find them in any spare part catalogue from that time, so It was probably just some idle pondering.

What exactly happens to the clutch function when the wave washer is omitted?

The valve distance I quoted to 28mm was from my rusty memory, it is 38mm of course, and that pretty much limits the maximum valve diameter to 37.5mm. That could bring about a 13% increase in inlet area, perhaps less, since the air entering close to the near overlap
would seem to be working against each other. A flow bench would be needed to find out.

I would like to read some about port flow, seat angles, seat width etc, can anyone recommend a good book to start me off.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #16 - 11/15/23 at 03:21:55
 
DragBikeMike created the DR650 clutch combination for the Savage, and I followed along and put it in after he did.  I had suggested that a forum member (Badwolf) had removed the spring washer in his clutch and that it worked for him........so we both tried it and put in the wider fiber disc and eliminated the thinner steel plate and spring washer.

DragBikeMike had his in first and rides his bike more miles than me, and he emailed me and ask if I had any problems with the clutch "squealing" when it was engaged.....as he was having some of that.  At that point I did not have a lot of miles on mine and it was working fine.

A few weeks later my clutch began to squeal if I let the clutch out a bit quickly - as if I was in a hurry to get going.  As long as I was easy on the throttle and let the clutch lever out slowly it was fine - but if I was a bit aggressive it was noisy and rough.  As I rode more the situation got worse and it became hard to go from a stop without the clutch squealing no matter how gently I tried.

When I took the clutch apart I found exactly the same scenario that DragBikeMike found in his bike.  The steel thrust washers on in inner and outer side of the clutch basket had grooves worn into them, and the bushing on the shaft was gouged.......DragBikeMike also experienced that the large nut had come loose.  Two forum members thousands of miles apart with very different riding styles had exactly the same experience with the clutch.

Since that time we have both put the stock outer plate and spring washer back in, and the clutch works perfectly.  You do need keep the clutch lever free play pretty small in order to be able to get full disengagement of the clutch to allow finding neutral easily and avoid a "clunk" when engaging first gear from neutral.

I would suggest you do the DR650 mod with the stock plates and the spring washer affair...as it does work very well.  It grabs hard on my modified engine - and I believe that DragBikeMike has not experienced any slipping problems with his monster motor.  Then if you need more clutch later on once your engine is working - you can modify the plates and try to get even more grip.

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« Last Edit: 11/15/23 at 06:58:32 by Dave »  

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FinnHammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #17 - 11/19/23 at 07:12:07
 
All,

Lots of good advice and well taken it is. Yes, I will stick to the DR650 clutch mod with disc. spring in place, as Suzuki intended all along. (jeez, would I like to pick the brain of that Suzie engineer who thought that disk spring thing out).
The oil pump speedup hardware is almost finished now, I am only waiting for a carbide drill for the holes in the big gear. As mike has already reported, these gears are hard to machine. Case hardened, good stuff.

I have an extra Cylinderhead, now. (Thanks, Dave).
I was amazed to see, that the main factor determining the crooked exhaust port, and the main obstacle in straightening it out, is that the exhaust valves are 8 mm shorter than the inlet valves.
The seating surface of the inlet valves allows a fairly ok port, but the seat of the exhaust valves cannot avoid obstructing the port.
8mm valve stem saved, how utterly pathetic.

One mod down, a lot more to go.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #18 - 11/20/23 at 09:39:40
 
Mama Mia Finn that looks nice.  And you put it on CAD too.  Sweeeet!  Would you be willing to share that drawing?  Is there any way to put it in PDF format?

Even though the exhaust port is ugly, you can get it to flow half decent.  Are you planning on installing larger intake valves?  If you stick with the stock 33mm intakes, the exhaust port will keep up just fine as long as you enlarge the outlet and massage the runners a bit.

You got skills dude.  Respect.  
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #19 - 11/21/23 at 06:36:45
 
Mike,

Thanks for your kind words.

I have saved the drawings in PDF format, but I am not sure how to get them across, please advice.

I don't think bigger valves for now, probably next winter.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #20 - 11/21/23 at 07:05:32
 
you should be able to attach a pdf to the bottom as zip file or a compressed file.

right click the file, send to compressed file
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #21 - 11/21/23 at 13:35:11
 
Ok, I missed the ZIP possibility, but here they are:

One piece of advice: Don't skimp on the carbide inserts when you turn those wheels. They wear out real fast turning that case hardened stuff. That is normal. stick to 0.04" deep cuts, and go slow.

I mostly always do my work in CAD before touching the lathe controlls, it keeps the failure rate low. I thought for a while that I should offer this mod as a service to interested parties, but nobody wants to do this more than once, I think. It would take some serious tooling to take it up on a regular basis.

Thursday I get the DR650 clutch hub, the springs and also the cam chain guide, looking forward to work on those parts.

I also got David Vizard's book, Port and Flow Test which looks like it is going to be a good read.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
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« Last Edit: 11/22/23 at 04:10:35 by FinnHammer »  

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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #22 - 11/22/23 at 04:07:56
 
I have made an addition to the oil pump CAD files, adding to the pack a tool, which will come in handy when turning the big gear.
You cannot rely on just chucking the outside of the gear, when cutting the big internal diameter, the one that goes over the hub. The reason for this is, that the gear envolopes are referenced to the hole, not the perimeter of the gear.
Therefore the use of the 4 jaw chuck, where you center the gear by tracing a 10mm dowel inserted in the hole, with a dial gauge.
This step is crucial for getting a concentrically rotating big gear.
Chucking the gear inside the tool ring will make it easier to hold the gear secured in the chuck. During the second turning operation, where you clean up the small intermittant hole, consisting of the severed spokes of the gear, this tool ring will prevent any major distortion to the now rather fragile gear.
The new zip is attached, and I have uploaded it to the original post too.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #23 - 11/27/23 at 03:50:25
 
All,

Delivered in a velvet pouch, buy do they know how to talk to us over at Wiseco!
Only slight concern: now that the bore will be enlarged to 96mm, a stock top gasket will protude 0.5mm into the combustion chamber. I think, not a lot, but should I be concerned about it?

Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #24 - 11/27/23 at 15:07:27
 
I have been running a 95mm Wiseco for the last 17,000 miles with a stock headgasket and I have not had any problems.

Only recently have we become aware of a fellow who makes copper gaskets in any for size we want....I believe Lancer use a stock headgasket for REX and his 97mm bore for years without any issues.

Running a copper gasket requires you to be sure about how flat the head and cylinder mating surface is - the copper gasket is not as forgiving as the multi-ply stock head gasket.

I made a jig so I could use my surface plate on the lathe and cut the head sealing surface flat.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #25 - 11/28/23 at 06:43:01
 
Dave,

And you did a beautifull job resurfacing those heads. Looks like you opened up for bigger inlet valves too.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #26 - 11/28/23 at 09:13:37
 
Stock sized valves....I did grind around a bit to get rid of the sharp corners on the seats and blend them in smoother.

I don't build for high rpm HP or straight line speed - my riding is mostly done between 3,000 - 4,000 rpm on curvy back roads at 50-60mph.  I want an engine with torque and good throttle response to pull me out of the corner.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #27 - 12/01/23 at 06:40:00
 
Reading through the many pages about this wonderfull little bike, even the ideal diametre of the exhaust header is covered. 45mm/1.75" outside diameter pipe gives 1.65"/42mm inside diametre.
I feel there is no way around using that exact dimension, even though I am going to use a 94mm piston. (Yes, I know, I just showed a 96mm Wiseco piston, but just at the same moment I came to realize that for one, that piston would be low on compression, it would also not have any squish area, which I believe is the direct way to low end grunt).
So I purchased a 94mm flat top Wiseco (well, dished top, really). But with the 10.5:1 compression ratio and squish area.
But back to the exhaust header.
Getting that thing mandrel bent here in Denmark is possible, but probably not in single numbers, so I have been looking to get a 180deg. part with the correct centerline diametre. This is not easy, but whereas the stock header is bent in a 210mm cenderline diametre, I managed to get a part bent to a 169mm centreline.
Question, will this look ok?
Hard to say before the parts arrive and I can get them welded together, this is what It looks like in drawing, perhaps a bit whimpy, but then, better look whimpy than be whimpy.
Blue is the stock header, black outline is the one I intend to manufacture
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #28 - 12/01/23 at 15:23:03
 


It is made using a die. So it's not creative, so you can't expect beauty from something you didn't die for during the making process. As an artist really dies while creating true art.

You will have to have more courage to make something beautiful. But this will not be worse or more beautiful than the original.

That is ...
I hope that the bend was made with a bending machine that has a inner core so that the bend has the same diameter everywhere.
We shall see.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #29 - 12/01/23 at 19:09:19
 
"better look whimpy than be whimpy"   Grin

I agree Finn.  However, I doubt that it will look whimpy.  Given the work that you have already presented, I bet it will look great.

You will not be disappointed with that 94mm flat-top.  It runs great.  Makes excellent power and the fuel economy is off the hook.  Can't wait to hear how it runs with that 1.6" header.

FYI, you can also get that flat-top design in a 97mm.
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