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Just Idle Talk (Read 430 times)
B-Will
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Just Idle Talk
12/16/21 at 11:16:11
 
I have a 2001 Savage that has a rough idle.  I've tried everything I can think of and cannot get the bike to idle right.  At speed, it seems fine.

Now, for details. . .

Bike Specs:
Year: 2001
Mileage: 3,200
Exhaust: Emgo turn-out style
Carb main jet: #145
Carb pilot jet: #55
Air box and air filter: stock
Petcock: Raptor
Everything else: stock

Symptoms:
- Rough idle, to the point that the RPMs are way to low
- Momentary quickening of the idle, almost like it "fixes" itself to the correct idle for 1 second, then returns to the loping
- A little black smoke when I rev engine when idling
- New Emgo muffler now has turned yellow and is starting to turn blue
- Black soot coating the header pipe and new muffler.  Looking into the exhaust port with the headers off, its all black in there too

Other Observations:
- The oil that was in the bike when I bought it was like chocolate syrup.  Since the bike only had 3k miles, there's a good chance it literally never had an oil change until I bought it.  I've done 3 so far (220 miles driven on it so far).  The oil is starting to look better, but it's going to take a few more oil changes to clean the engine out I think.
- When driving at mid speed, or higher speed, the bike rides fine.  Seems like the mid and main carb circuits are fine.
- Some exhaust seems to leak out the front interface where the header mounts to front of engine.  It's really visible and the exhaust can be seen by the headlights at night.  It's not pouring out, but noticeable.
- It sounds like a car that's "missing".  A low RPM, loping idle speed
- Turning the idle mix screw (carefully) all the way clockwise (closing fuel off) produces the highest idle, although still rough.
- Knurled idle nob has to be turned all the way in (highest idle speed available).  Even so, It's better if I give it a bit more throttle to get it up to a safe idle speed.
- After only about 220 miles of driving, the first spark plug because so fouled by black soot that the bike wouldn't start.  New plug installed (bike starts now, but change to idle issue).
- One day when I came home for lunch, I was sitting on the bike in the driveway thinking about the idle (while the bike was idling), and it started to rev up by itself.  It sounded like whatever was wrong was momentarily fixed.  Since I had the knurled knob so high, the RPMs started to rev up quite a bit.  Whatever was broken, appeared to be momentarily fixed.  When I started it up after lunch, the rough idle was back.

Fixes tried / mods accomplished so far:
- Stock petcock replaced with Raptor
-  New exhaust gasket installed where headers mount to engine.  Ensured the two bolts were tightened to torque spec.  Ensured exhaust system fasteners were tightened in the proper order - front (front part of header) to back (muffler hanger)
- New air filter installed.  Air box inspected for blockages.  None found.
- Fully cleaned carb.  Removed pilot/main jet, floats, float needle and cleaned carb fully.  Carb cleaner seems to go through all the little vents and holes in the carb with no apparent blockage.  Butterfly valve cleaned and rotates well.  Removed float needle diaphragm, cleaned with mild detergent.  Removed idle mix screw and inspected/cleaned.  No issues found.  Removed TEV diagram and inspected.  Nothing jumped out as being wrong there.
- Sanded white spacer to 1/2 height.  That helped mid range and backfiring (which wasn't bad to begin with), but no change to idle issue.
- Tried #47.5, #50 and #55 pilot jets.  No change at all.  Idle mix screw produces highest idle when fully seated regardless if using #47.5, 50, 55 pilot jets.  Even so, idle is very rough.  Idle mix screw has no affect on idle right now with the exception that the idle increases slightly when the screw is fully seated
- Checked header pipes for blockage (dirt dobbers maybe?).  Other than the black soot, no blockages found.
- Checked for vacuum leaks by spraying starting fluid on rear carb boot as well as front boot (where carb send fuel to engine).  No changes to RPMs.  Ensured right side port was capped after raptor mod.  No vacuum leaks found.
- Spark plug replaced when I first purchased the bike.  I put a second in there the other day (the first had become sooted up in only 220 miles).  I did the spark check, and the plug seems to be getting a good spark and not "missing".

Thoughts:
Best I can figure, the idle circuit appears to be starving for air.  The soot seems to indicate that (maybe that's the cause of the discoloring of the pipes).
Putting bigger pilot jets in the carb probably just makes the problem worse.  I just can't figure out what's failing and causing the idle circuit to starve.  The air starvation seems to be trumping any other tweaking I'm doing with regard to idling.  Nothing is going to change the bike's idle issue (like swapping pilot jets) until I fix that problem it seems.

My next guess is that the exhaust leaking from the front the engine may have something to do with it.  I'm really running out of ideas at this point.  Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

BTW, everything I've done to this point on this bike is a result of the good info found on this site.  You guys are awesome.  I'm on Savage #2 and my first one turned out great (another barn pull).  I know this one will too once I figure this issue out.

Thank you in advance!
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B-Will
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Re: Just Idle Talk
Reply #1 - 12/16/21 at 11:18:23
 
I forgot that a buddy took some good pics of the bike for me yesterday.  Here's one that shows the headers discoloration and also how the new emgo muffler is starting to discolor as well.
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Bike_003.jpg
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Dave
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Re: Just Idle Talk
Reply #2 - 12/16/21 at 17:02:08
 
It sounds to me like your Pilot Jet is too big. If you can turn the idle fuel mixture screw all the way in without the engine dying - it is getting too much fuel.

I run a #50 pilot to start the jetting process, and most of the time it is the correct size.  If you need to turn the screw out more than 2.5 turns to get a smooth idle - bump up to a #52.5 (I rarely find that necessary).

I sent a bike out the door of the door running great after cleaning the carb and fuel tank.....the bike had been sitting outside for 3 years under a tarp and it needed the old crud cleaned out.  A few weeks later the owner said the bike would fail to start and flooded easily.  I took the bike back and found one of the floats was leaky and had fuel inside.  The float felt fine - but when you shook it you could hear fuel sloshing around inside.

Perhaps your float is leaking and not "floating" as it should.  Have you tried checking the fuel level using the clear tube method?
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Just Idle Talk
Reply #3 - 12/16/21 at 22:21:29
 
"- Tried #47.5, #50 and #55 pilot jets.  No change at all.  Idle mix screw produces highest idle when fully seated regardless if using #47.5, 50, 55 pilot jets.  Even so, idle is very rough.  Idle mix screw has no affect on idle right now with the exception that the idle increases slightly when the screw is fully seated"

Everything you report indicates that your mixture is grossly rich at idle but OK above idle. Yet your pilot jet and idle mixture screw seem to have zero effect on your idle mixture.  You may have a problem with obstructed pilot air bleeds, or your enricher may not be seating properly.  The float is a possibility but you would think that a messed up float level would affect the mixture across the board (idle, mid range, etc.).

The easiest component to check is the enricher.  Remove the enricher assembly.  Make sure the plunger moves freely from detent to detent.  Make sure the plunger shaft isn't bent.   Verify that it closes completely and that the rubber seal in the face of the plunger is in good condition.  The rubber seal must firmly contact the raised seat in the body of the carb.

This is the plunger.  Note the black rubber seat in the face of the plunger.
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Enrichment_Plunger2_001.jpg

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Just Idle Talk
Reply #4 - 12/16/21 at 22:25:57
 
This is the raised seat in the enricher cavity.  Also, make sure the proboscis on the end of the plunger is not bent or broken off.
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Enricher_System.jpg

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Just Idle Talk
Reply #5 - 12/16/21 at 22:36:53
 
If your enricher is functioning properly, and you are sure that it closes off the enrichment fuel completely, check your pilot air bleeds.  

There are two pilot air jets in the dome of the carburetor, a #45 and a #230.  These air jets are below the rubber diaphragm.  Make sure they are not obstructed (especially the #230).  Also make sure the passages associated with these air jets are not obstructed.

These are the two pilot air jets.

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Air_Jets_in_Top.jpg

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B-Will
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Re: Just Idle Talk
Reply #6 - 12/17/21 at 04:43:37
 
Hey this is great.  Ok so rather than not enough air the issue is too much fuel.  Sounds like from ya'lls experience it's usually too much fuel rather than not enough air for these kinds of problems.  Makes total sense and points me in the direction of "why is there so much fuel getting in there" rather than "why is the air being choked off".

Ok so you've given me 3 things that I definitely have not checked yet and I'll look at this them weekend:

- Float level check w/ clear tube test (previous visual inspection on these looked fine, but I've read on this forum that there could still be pin hole leaks in the floats.  Best to test anyhow)
- Inspect enrichment system (thanks for the detail on that!)
- Inspect #45 and #230 pilot air jets in dome of carb, looking for any obstructions.  (I'll also make sure they are actually #45 and #230 jets.  I've ran into some surprises on this bike so far and don't take anything for granted!   Smiley )

I'll let you guys know what I find out.  Thanks again.
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B-Will
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Re: Just Idle Talk
Reply #7 - 12/18/21 at 14:20:53
 
Test Results for Test #1 : Float Test

Test Setup: Standard Wal-mart aquarium air line heated and expanded to fit on bottom drain spout of carb.  Airline routed up alongside carb and taped to top of tank.

Test Procedures:
1. Ensure Raptor petcock is on normal "down" position
2. Attach one end of airline to carb drain spout
3. Tape open end of airline above carb, on gas tank with blue painters tape
4. Unscrew drain screw on carb drain spout until fuel starts filling airline
5. Observe fuel level in airline (I used my finger to push the line to be very close and parallel up the side of the carb)
6. Change raptor petcock to "reserve" position.
7. Observe fuel level in airline

Results:
With raptor petcock in normal position, the fuel line is well above gasket line.  I switched the raptor petcock to the "reserve" position and didn't see any change (although I wouldn't expect too).  Not sure if this was needed or not, but I remember something about putting the petcock in reserve as well.

Conclusion:
I think my float is out of alignment and the tang needs to be adjusted, or it has a hole and is filling with fuel.  I'll inspect/adjust tang and make sure the floats actually float in a bowl of fuel.  Since I have to remove the carb to do that, I'll check the enrichment system and air jets with the carb on the bench.

I think this may be one of my issues.  I'll run through the next two tests to be sure I don't have more than one issue going on.  But, it looks like either the tang needs adjusting or the floats ain't floatin.

Sound right?

Pics of test and test setup below:

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B-Will
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Re: Just Idle Talk
Reply #8 - 12/18/21 at 14:21:15
 
Test Setup Pic 1
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Test_Setup1.jpg
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B-Will
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Re: Just Idle Talk
Reply #9 - 12/18/21 at 14:21:34
 
Test Setup Pic 2
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Test_Setup2.jpg
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B-Will
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Re: Just Idle Talk
Reply #10 - 12/18/21 at 14:21:55
 
Closeup of test result pic
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Test_Result.jpg
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Re: Just Idle Talk
Reply #11 - 12/18/21 at 14:58:19
 
B-Will wrote on 12/18/21 at 14:20:53:
Results:
With raptor petcock in normal position, the fuel line is well above gasket line.

Conclusion:
I think my float is out of alignment and the tang needs to be adjusted


Adjust your float level.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Just Idle Talk
Reply #12 - 12/18/21 at 15:28:19
 
Fuel in the bowl should not be above the gasket.
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B-Will
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Re: Just Idle Talk
Reply #13 - 12/18/21 at 15:43:47
 
Ok sounds good.  FYI, the enrichment knob looks fine and the idle air bleed jets look good as well (and are the correct size).

I'll do the tang adjustment / float test the floats, batten it all back up, and post results.

Thanks again,
Bwill
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B-Will
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Re: Just Idle Talk
Reply #14 - 12/18/21 at 15:45:41
 
Also, Dave I'm going to take your advice and throw the #50 pilot jet back in there as well while I have the carb on the bench.  Sounds like that is the most likely needed size.
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