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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Just Idle Talk /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1639682171 Message started by B-Will on 12/16/21 at 11:16:11 |
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Title: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/16/21 at 11:16:11 I have a 2001 Savage that has a rough idle. I've tried everything I can think of and cannot get the bike to idle right. At speed, it seems fine. Now, for details. . . Bike Specs: Year: 2001 Mileage: 3,200 Exhaust: Emgo turn-out style Carb main jet: #145 Carb pilot jet: #55 Air box and air filter: stock Petcock: Raptor Everything else: stock Symptoms: - Rough idle, to the point that the RPMs are way to low - Momentary quickening of the idle, almost like it "fixes" itself to the correct idle for 1 second, then returns to the loping - A little black smoke when I rev engine when idling - New Emgo muffler now has turned yellow and is starting to turn blue - Black soot coating the header pipe and new muffler. Looking into the exhaust port with the headers off, its all black in there too Other Observations: - The oil that was in the bike when I bought it was like chocolate syrup. Since the bike only had 3k miles, there's a good chance it literally never had an oil change until I bought it. I've done 3 so far (220 miles driven on it so far). The oil is starting to look better, but it's going to take a few more oil changes to clean the engine out I think. - When driving at mid speed, or higher speed, the bike rides fine. Seems like the mid and main carb circuits are fine. - Some exhaust seems to leak out the front interface where the header mounts to front of engine. It's really visible and the exhaust can be seen by the headlights at night. It's not pouring out, but noticeable. - It sounds like a car that's "missing". A low RPM, loping idle speed - Turning the idle mix screw (carefully) all the way clockwise (closing fuel off) produces the highest idle, although still rough. - Knurled idle nob has to be turned all the way in (highest idle speed available). Even so, It's better if I give it a bit more throttle to get it up to a safe idle speed. - After only about 220 miles of driving, the first spark plug because so fouled by black soot that the bike wouldn't start. New plug installed (bike starts now, but change to idle issue). - One day when I came home for lunch, I was sitting on the bike in the driveway thinking about the idle (while the bike was idling), and it started to rev up by itself. It sounded like whatever was wrong was momentarily fixed. Since I had the knurled knob so high, the RPMs started to rev up quite a bit. Whatever was broken, appeared to be momentarily fixed. When I started it up after lunch, the rough idle was back. Fixes tried / mods accomplished so far: - Stock petcock replaced with Raptor - New exhaust gasket installed where headers mount to engine. Ensured the two bolts were tightened to torque spec. Ensured exhaust system fasteners were tightened in the proper order - front (front part of header) to back (muffler hanger) - New air filter installed. Air box inspected for blockages. None found. - Fully cleaned carb. Removed pilot/main jet, floats, float needle and cleaned carb fully. Carb cleaner seems to go through all the little vents and holes in the carb with no apparent blockage. Butterfly valve cleaned and rotates well. Removed float needle diaphragm, cleaned with mild detergent. Removed idle mix screw and inspected/cleaned. No issues found. Removed TEV diagram and inspected. Nothing jumped out as being wrong there. - Sanded white spacer to 1/2 height. That helped mid range and backfiring (which wasn't bad to begin with), but no change to idle issue. - Tried #47.5, #50 and #55 pilot jets. No change at all. Idle mix screw produces highest idle when fully seated regardless if using #47.5, 50, 55 pilot jets. Even so, idle is very rough. Idle mix screw has no affect on idle right now with the exception that the idle increases slightly when the screw is fully seated - Checked header pipes for blockage (dirt dobbers maybe?). Other than the black soot, no blockages found. - Checked for vacuum leaks by spraying starting fluid on rear carb boot as well as front boot (where carb send fuel to engine). No changes to RPMs. Ensured right side port was capped after raptor mod. No vacuum leaks found. - Spark plug replaced when I first purchased the bike. I put a second in there the other day (the first had become sooted up in only 220 miles). I did the spark check, and the plug seems to be getting a good spark and not "missing". Thoughts: Best I can figure, the idle circuit appears to be starving for air. The soot seems to indicate that (maybe that's the cause of the discoloring of the pipes). Putting bigger pilot jets in the carb probably just makes the problem worse. I just can't figure out what's failing and causing the idle circuit to starve. The air starvation seems to be trumping any other tweaking I'm doing with regard to idling. Nothing is going to change the bike's idle issue (like swapping pilot jets) until I fix that problem it seems. My next guess is that the exhaust leaking from the front the engine may have something to do with it. I'm really running out of ideas at this point. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. BTW, everything I've done to this point on this bike is a result of the good info found on this site. You guys are awesome. I'm on Savage #2 and my first one turned out great (another barn pull). I know this one will too once I figure this issue out. Thank you in advance! |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/16/21 at 11:18:23 I forgot that a buddy took some good pics of the bike for me yesterday. Here's one that shows the headers discoloration and also how the new emgo muffler is starting to discolor as well. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by Dave on 12/16/21 at 17:02:08 It sounds to me like your Pilot Jet is too big. If you can turn the idle fuel mixture screw all the way in without the engine dying - it is getting too much fuel. I run a #50 pilot to start the jetting process, and most of the time it is the correct size. If you need to turn the screw out more than 2.5 turns to get a smooth idle - bump up to a #52.5 (I rarely find that necessary). I sent a bike out the door of the door running great after cleaning the carb and fuel tank.....the bike had been sitting outside for 3 years under a tarp and it needed the old crud cleaned out. A few weeks later the owner said the bike would fail to start and flooded easily. I took the bike back and found one of the floats was leaky and had fuel inside. The float felt fine - but when you shook it you could hear fuel sloshing around inside. Perhaps your float is leaking and not "floating" as it should. Have you tried checking the fuel level using the clear tube method? |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by DragBikeMike on 12/16/21 at 22:21:29 "- Tried #47.5, #50 and #55 pilot jets. No change at all. Idle mix screw produces highest idle when fully seated regardless if using #47.5, 50, 55 pilot jets. Even so, idle is very rough. Idle mix screw has no affect on idle right now with the exception that the idle increases slightly when the screw is fully seated" Everything you report indicates that your mixture is grossly rich at idle but OK above idle. Yet your pilot jet and idle mixture screw seem to have zero effect on your idle mixture. You may have a problem with obstructed pilot air bleeds, or your enricher may not be seating properly. The float is a possibility but you would think that a messed up float level would affect the mixture across the board (idle, mid range, etc.). The easiest component to check is the enricher. Remove the enricher assembly. Make sure the plunger moves freely from detent to detent. Make sure the plunger shaft isn't bent. Verify that it closes completely and that the rubber seal in the face of the plunger is in good condition. The rubber seal must firmly contact the raised seat in the body of the carb. This is the plunger. Note the black rubber seat in the face of the plunger. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by DragBikeMike on 12/16/21 at 22:25:57 This is the raised seat in the enricher cavity. Also, make sure the proboscis on the end of the plunger is not bent or broken off. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by DragBikeMike on 12/16/21 at 22:36:53 If your enricher is functioning properly, and you are sure that it closes off the enrichment fuel completely, check your pilot air bleeds. There are two pilot air jets in the dome of the carburetor, a #45 and a #230. These air jets are below the rubber diaphragm. Make sure they are not obstructed (especially the #230). Also make sure the passages associated with these air jets are not obstructed. These are the two pilot air jets. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/17/21 at 04:43:37 Hey this is great. Ok so rather than not enough air the issue is too much fuel. Sounds like from ya'lls experience it's usually too much fuel rather than not enough air for these kinds of problems. Makes total sense and points me in the direction of "why is there so much fuel getting in there" rather than "why is the air being choked off". Ok so you've given me 3 things that I definitely have not checked yet and I'll look at this them weekend: - Float level check w/ clear tube test (previous visual inspection on these looked fine, but I've read on this forum that there could still be pin hole leaks in the floats. Best to test anyhow) - Inspect enrichment system (thanks for the detail on that!) - Inspect #45 and #230 pilot air jets in dome of carb, looking for any obstructions. (I'll also make sure they are actually #45 and #230 jets. I've ran into some surprises on this bike so far and don't take anything for granted! :) ) I'll let you guys know what I find out. Thanks again. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/18/21 at 14:20:53 Test Results for Test #1 : Float Test Test Setup: Standard Wal-mart aquarium air line heated and expanded to fit on bottom drain spout of carb. Airline routed up alongside carb and taped to top of tank. Test Procedures: 1. Ensure Raptor petcock is on normal "down" position 2. Attach one end of airline to carb drain spout 3. Tape open end of airline above carb, on gas tank with blue painters tape 4. Unscrew drain screw on carb drain spout until fuel starts filling airline 5. Observe fuel level in airline (I used my finger to push the line to be very close and parallel up the side of the carb) 6. Change raptor petcock to "reserve" position. 7. Observe fuel level in airline Results: With raptor petcock in normal position, the fuel line is well above gasket line. I switched the raptor petcock to the "reserve" position and didn't see any change (although I wouldn't expect too). Not sure if this was needed or not, but I remember something about putting the petcock in reserve as well. Conclusion: I think my float is out of alignment and the tang needs to be adjusted, or it has a hole and is filling with fuel. I'll inspect/adjust tang and make sure the floats actually float in a bowl of fuel. Since I have to remove the carb to do that, I'll check the enrichment system and air jets with the carb on the bench. I think this may be one of my issues. I'll run through the next two tests to be sure I don't have more than one issue going on. But, it looks like either the tang needs adjusting or the floats ain't floatin. Sound right? Pics of test and test setup below: |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/18/21 at 14:21:15 Test Setup Pic 1 |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/18/21 at 14:21:34 Test Setup Pic 2 |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/18/21 at 14:21:55 Closeup of test result pic |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by verslagen1 on 12/18/21 at 14:58:19 7E7D6E6E7968686B757070757D716F2B2A1C0 wrote:
Adjust your float level. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/18/21 at 15:28:19 Fuel in the bowl should not be above the gasket. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/18/21 at 15:43:47 Ok sounds good. FYI, the enrichment knob looks fine and the idle air bleed jets look good as well (and are the correct size). I'll do the tang adjustment / float test the floats, batten it all back up, and post results. Thanks again, Bwill |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/18/21 at 15:45:41 Also, Dave I'm going to take your advice and throw the #50 pilot jet back in there as well while I have the carb on the bench. Sounds like that is the most likely needed size. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/20/21 at 04:36:04 I think I may have adjusted too far. You can see from the pic that the fuel level is now well below the gasket line. During the test ride, the bike cut out at higher speeds (65mpg or so). My first thought was "did I not put enough gas in the tank?". It felt exactly like when the bike tells you its time to flip to reserve. It would never die, just real momentary losses of life and power with pops and backfires. If I kept the RPMs lower, I realized I could prevent the stalls. If I pulled over, the RPMs would stay raised (I'm guessing 4k rpms). When the RPMs were raised like that, I could lower them back down by putting the bike in 1st gear and then carefully letting out the clutch just enough to roll the bike forward a few inches. That would get the RPMs back down to normal. Then it would run fine for a minute or so, then stall/pop/backfire at the higher RPM. Is this all because of the float being too low now you think? |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/20/21 at 06:38:10 Split the difference from where it was, to where it is, and you should be dead on. Also, since you will have the carb off, As Mike has suggested spray carb cleaner (use the want) through the air vents and make sure you observe a reasonable flow out the other side. If it backs up and sprays you in the face, and dribbles out the other side, there is an obstruction. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by verslagen1 on 12/20/21 at 07:02:22 I think it's about right. I'm assuming you are holding the bike vertical. 3721263E2062530 wrote:
http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/IMG_0495.JPG |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/20/21 at 07:25:47 Ok so 1 vote for raise the fuel level and 1 vote (with pic!) for leave it as is. If we assume the fuel level in the bowl is good, any thoughts on what may be causing the momentary stalls? It's real similar to a prior post on here where a guy was fighting the same issue and it turned out to be a piece of paper towel that the main would randomly suck up and cause a blockage. It feels like that same issue. I'll double check the bowl for debris but I'm positive it was clean when I reassembled this past weekend. Also, right now I have a #145 main jet which is the stock size according to the specs post (and the Clymer manual I believe). I wouldn't think that would be the issue. On the idling front, it doesn't seem like any of my tinkering has made a difference. The best idle is with the idle/mix turned all the way in and the knurled knob screwed down as far as it will go (I think you can actually see that in my fuel level pic). Even then it's not great. Tonight I'll get a pic of the idle/mix screw. I noticed yesterday that the head looks bigger than my last savage and larger than the pics I've seen here. Maybe it's not the right screw and was replaced by the prior owner (or maybe I'm grasping at straws :). I'll pull it out (with out loosing and of the other pieces in there) and post a pic. The idle issue may be something crazy like that. If that's not the culprit than I'll pull the carb and triple check all the passageways with carb cleaner. So, to summarize, no change to idle behavior, and now the bike momentarily stalls at speed. I'll check for debris in the bowl and get a pic of the idle/mix screw. If no debris found, maybe I will raise the float just a hair. That's the only thing I can think of at this point. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by verslagen1 on 12/20/21 at 08:01:15 4E4D5E5E4958585B454040454D415F1B1A2C0 wrote:
That ain't right. With your idle speed set like that you're bypassing the idle jet altogether. So no matter what you do to the idle mixture, nothing will happen. Slow return to idle is usually the choke... is the choke all the way in? |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/20/21 at 08:36:03 Yep the choke was all the way in. Here's a closeup of the choke plunger when the carb was on the bench and I'll post the close up of the cavity it seats into. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/20/21 at 08:36:53 Here's what the inside of the enrichment plunger cavity looks like: |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by DragBikeMike on 12/20/21 at 11:53:35 B-Will you certainly have a bizarre problem. That enrichment plunger looks like it hasn't moved in years. What do you think all those little balls of crud are (the stuff on the proboscis)? Corrosion? Based on your description, the engine seems to be getting too much fuel. You say it runs better when the mixture screw is turned all the way in, but it's also doin stuff that indicates a big air leak or the enricher is stuck open. It sounds crazy. Can you take the carb off, disassemble it, and take a full set of pictures so we can see all of the parts? |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/20/21 at 13:39:01 42444B37353236060 wrote:
Yep sure will. On the proboscis, I think that's just dust. I saw that too when I took it and it wipes off. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/20/21 at 18:06:43 I didn't have time to pull the carb tonight, but I did have time to pull the idle adjust screw. I think this may be one of the issues. When I look this part up on Partzilla, it's definitely different. Some other observations: - As the screw sits in the cavity, it sticks out way more than my last savage as well as other pics I've seen on this site. With this screw, there's not even room for the brass factory plug to even have been there in the first place. Looking at the screw close up, it's clear why that would be. - O-ring is obviously not serviceable anymore. Even with the correct screw, it probably would never have seated correctly. - spring and washer look good A few pics to follow: |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/20/21 at 18:07:18 Suspect idle screw as it sits in the carb. Notice there's no room for a plug: |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/20/21 at 18:10:18 The other components of the idle screw assembly. Note the o-ring is trashed. When I was removing it, it was crumpled. I think the reason it was only running when the idle screw was in all the way, was because it's wasn't in all the way. The combination of an incorrect screw and/or the o-ring being deformed in the cavity prevented the screw from being fully turned in. I was being pretty gentle, so I wouldn't have known if I was compressing a jacked washer vs. fully seated screw (just a guess). |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/20/21 at 18:11:28 Here's a final pic of the suspect screw before I removed it: |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by Dave on 12/21/21 at 03:23:20 The mixture screw you have is not the standard one....perhaps it is not seating properly and controlling the mixture as it should. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 12/21/21 at 06:54:05 48737E6978746F69727A77681B0 wrote:
Dave that's what I'm thinking too. I've got parts on order and I'll post an update when I get the correct screw installed. I'm thinking this will go along way to fixing the idle issue. I'm going to tackle that before I continue troubleshooting the issue of stalling at speed. That just started during my last test ride. So, I think that's probably either debris in the bowl or possibly another float adjustment is needed. I feel like that's going to be something pretty obvious though. Thanks everyone for the assistance and I'll let you guys know how it turns out with the correct idle mix screw installed. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by DragBikeMike on 12/21/21 at 16:48:56 B-Will, congrats on hitting pay dirt and thanks for the pics. That's some good info to have in the data bank. Pretty cool how you noted the mixture screw depth in your photos. Now we know a flush screw head is a dead giveaway. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 01/08/22 at 12:00:20 I finally got some parts and have an update. I was able to replace the idle/mix screw with a stock part. I also replaced the o-ring, washer and spring. Basically, the entire idle/mix screw assembly has been replaced with known good stock parts. While the carb was out, I gave it another thorough cleaning, ensuring cleaner went through all the ports, holes, etc. I think the carb is in good shape. I put it all back together, fired it up, and no change. Dang it! The idle is still rough, idle/mix screw has no effect, knurled knob has to be all the way in to even idle. So, I took a break to think about it. I remember one of the things the previous owner said, "my mechanic said it needs a valve adjustment". That didn't sound right since this engine only has 3k miles. But, I do remember an old Craftsman riding mower that ran terrible and the YouTubers said to adjust the valves. I remember doing that on the lawn mower and it ran way better. So, why not give it a go I figured. It'll be a good learning experience. Here's what happened, and I would like to know if this is normal. When I removed the valve timing inspection cover (the one with the big slot that you have to get creative to remove), gasoline came POURING out. Holy smokes! I wasn't ready for that and quickly screwed it back in. Then, I got my oil change containers in place and removed the cover again. There's had to be 2 quarts of gasoline that came out. It's actually mixed with some oil it seems, but the consistency is a lot more gas than oil. Nothing in the manual or the valve adjustment procedure on here said anything to the effect of "and get something in place to catch all the gas that comes pouring out". So, that leads me to believe this may be a clue as to what is going on. Is it normal to have a bunch of gas spill out when you remove the timing inspection cover? Results of the valve adjustment: they were not gapped appropriately and had zero clearance when the engine was at TDC. So, I loosened them up to spec. Also, the book calls for adjusting the automatic decompression cable prior to the value adjustment. So, I checked that first. That didn't have the recommended amount of slack when the engine was at TDC either. So, I adjusted that to spec as well. I'm getting ready to go double check all my adjustments and wanted to get some feedback on the gas spilling out before bolting everything back up. I could see maybe some oil in there, but not gas. That doesn't sound right. Thoughts? |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/08/22 at 13:24:49 Gas in the oil is Not Normal Waay Not Good. The petcock is the first culprit but if the carburetor float valve is good that should keep it from flooding the crankcase. If the carb does not stop the fuel and you have an intake valve open, it's going in. You aren't checking the oil level enough. If it is gaining oil, that is never okay. I'm just Hoping you haven't done damage to bottom end bearings,,well, the cam is not something that can live without lubrication, either. Hopefully this hasn't been going on long enough to make you cry. If you can leave the crankcase open, to vent, and warm enough to evaporate the gas out, that would seem like a decent plan. I'd want to see oil in the cylinder to treat the walls, if you have a compressor you can pull the fill plug and the timing plug and blow it out. Look at the oil that came out. Run a magnet through it. I'd autopsy the filter. If you can't tell by looking, maybe shooting brake parts cleaner through it, rinsing the crap out onto some white paper towels. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 01/08/22 at 15:11:44 Thanks for the info Justin. So this is a recent development. I've been changing the oil very frequently on this bike trying to clean out the engine. Since my last oil change (which didn't have gas in it), I probably rode it 1 or 2 times. The float valve in the carb was also dorked up, so I'm guessing it allowed the lower end to get flooded. I just pulled off the oil plug on the bottom and sure enough, fuel. I'm cleaning it all out with compressed air and so forth like you suggested and then I'll add some fresh oil (I'm changing the filter too most definitely). I'm pretty sure I corrected the float issue as well, but I'm going to do the float level check to be sure. I bet that's what let the fuel into the bottom. Thanks for the help! |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by DragBikeMike on 01/08/22 at 19:34:20 I warn you in advance, be careful, gasoline is flammable, take appropriate safety precautions. For fuel to get into your crankcase, the fuel must get past the petcock. The fuel contamination issue (gas in oil) is usually related to a faulty petcock that doesn’t close off properly. It generally occurs when the bike is not running. In your initial post on 12/16/21, you stated that you have a Raptor petcock. Please answer these questions: Is your petcock a genuine Yamaha part? Do you ALWAYS turn off your petcock when you shut down your bike? If you always shut off your petcock when the bike is not in operation and your crankcase is filling up with gas, then the petcock must be leaking. With all the work you have been doing you should have noticed if the petcock leaks. Is your petcock leaking? If you didn’t notice if the petcock is leaking, test it. Disconnect the fuel line and look to see if fuel comes out when the petcock is turned off. Watch it for a few minutes. Make sure you don’t have a slow leak. When it comes to filling up the crankcase, a slow leak is just as bad as a fast leak. Does your petcock have a slow leak? |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by DragBikeMike on 01/08/22 at 19:37:22 When the petcock leaks, or if it is left in the “on” position, the float needle valve in the carb eventually starts to leak. Then the carb overflows. But these emission-compliant carbs don’t have an overflow tube. So, the gas dribbles out into the venturi of the carb. From the venturi, the fuel runs into the intake manifold. The fuel can also run the other direction, into the airbox. Happens all the time. The airbox fills up with gas. You already know gas is getting into your oil. That’s from fuel running down your intake manifold. You need to know if gas is also getting into your airbox. Open your airbox and remove your air filter. Is there gas in your air box? Is the air filter element soaked with gas? If the air box and filter are filled with gas, you must dry them out. You can drain the airbox and then mop it up with paper towels. Be careful. Dispose of the flammable liquids and materials in a safe manner. You can let the filter element air-dry. Do that outdoors, not in the garage or house. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by DragBikeMike on 01/08/22 at 19:40:08 By now you must have figured out that two things must leak for fuel to get into your crankcase and/or airbox. The petcock must leak, and the float needle valve must leak. The petcock is easy to test. If it leaks, replace it. If you suspect it might be leaking, replace it. Use only a genuine Yamaha Raptor petcock, 5LP-24500-01-00. Not some eBay knock-off part, genuine Yamaha only. Go to a Yamaha dealer or an on-line distributor that sells genuine Yamaha parts. You adjusted your float level. Your temporary sight gage shown in reply #15 looks fine. At least the picture indicates that the level isn’t too high. A float needle valve isn’t intended to be a stop valve. The needle and seat maintain the fuel level by continuously modulating fuel flow into the carb. The stop valve is the petcock. Your carb works lousy, and fuel is getting past the float needle valve. You discovered that the mixture screw is bogus. IMO, your whole carburetor is suspect. Did you happen to read the post I did recently on “Stock Carb Rebuild Kits”? Your post (this one right here that you are reading) motivated me to look at the cheap rebuild kits. You should read my post and then inspect your carburetor too see if it is full of junk parts. You already know you had one of the bogus mixture screws. There’s a good chance your carb is full of junk knock-off parts. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1641171298 Is your needle jet silver or is it brass? Is your slide needle anodized aluminum or is it brass? Are your jets unmarked? In reply #23 you agreed to take a full set of pics and post them. I think that would be most helpful. We will all be able to see exactly what you are wrestling with. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 01/09/22 at 07:14:07 DragBikeMike: I just read your write up on the carb rebuild kit from eBay. Holy smokes! I think that's exactly what happened with this bike! All the clues point to that. It's amazing how those small differences in parts can dork up a bike so much. Wow! So far I've had to replace an unmarked pilot jet, unmarked main jet, and the infamous idle/mix screw that looked exactly like what you got on ebay. I'm going to do a full tear down on this carb and post pics. You're right--everything in that carb that I haven't yet replaced is suspect now. Ok here's the answers to the questions you posted: Is your petcock a genuine Yamaha part? Yes. Just double checked part number from the website I ordered from. It's the real deal. I seem to remember it coming in Yamaha packaging too. Do you ALWAYS turn off your petcock when you shut down your bike? No. And this petcock was definitely left in the on position. That's a bad habit that changes today. So I'm guessing it filled the bowl up and dribbled past the float valve to both to the intake manifold as well as the air box? Is your petcock leaking? I really don't believe so. I've had the tank pulled off the bike several times, shut the petcock off, and no leaking. Also, I've had the tank on, fuel line from the petcock dangling, and the petcock off with no leaking. Is there gas in your air box? I haven't looked since the gas-in-the-engine incident, but I'll guess a "yes". When I pull the carb I'll confirm and let you know. Is the air filter element soaked with gas? I'm guessing yes, but again I'll confirm when I pull the carb to do the tear down. Is your needle jet silver or is it brass? Is your slide needle anodized aluminum or is it brass? Pics will be posted soon of all the carb internal parts. My guess is that these parts are "junk brass". That's what I seem to remember, but let's find out. Are your jets unmarked? The pilot and main sure were unmarked initially, but I've since replaced them with Mikuni jets. Mike thanks for that write up on the ebay rebuild kit. Man that gives me some relief that the focus of this bike is back on the carb. When I replaced that idle mix screw, and so no change, I was totally disheartened. "Well, if the carb is 100% good, and it's still running like crap, then something is majorly screwed up in the engine" I thought. That led me to the value check (which was probably needed anyhow, and a good learning experience, and most importantly led me to find all the gas in the crankcase). I'm so happy that the issues may yet still be junk carb parts and not a cracked piston cylinder cam o-ring valve seat fantabulator deep inside the engine ;D. Ok I'll give the air box a once over and also post a batch of pictures of my carb's guts with annotations, hopefully today if I can swing it. I'm like a NASCAR pit crew member pulling that carb off now. Thanks again for all the help. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 01/09/22 at 11:26:53 Ok the carb teardown is complete. I have a ton of annotated pics. So, I put them in a public Google Photos album and I'll post the link here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/3QjyqBQpAbuCCZZk8 Let me know if you have any issues seeing those. I also have a few answers: The petcock tested good (see pic). The air filter was dry (I was surprised about that). In one of the pics you'll see how the tang was adjusted. I'm pretty sure someone broke into my garage and adjusted that tang. It dang sure wasn't me. 8-) I think I have a crap needle jet and jet needle based on DragBikeMike's writeup of junk carb rebuild parts. If you see anything else that's suspect just let me know. Anyhow, the carb is out and dismantled currently. If you guys need any more pics or closeups just let me know and it'll be quick to get. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/09/22 at 11:35:15 Will, did you say that all of the fuel/oil came out of the valve cover when you went to adjust the valves? There is a mesh breather in the head that can be soaked with fuel. This will have to be replaced. @Dave can give you the details if this problem exists. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by TheSneeze on 01/09/22 at 11:48:03 Gary - I believe he said (or meant) it was coming out of the inspection window (on the side cover, see pic). |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/09/22 at 11:52:33 Got it. I reread it. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 01/10/22 at 08:59:11 Ok so it looks like these parts are either obviously not stock, or suspect and need to be replaced. -Needle Jet (X-7M) - 09494-00861 -Jet Needle (5C17) - 13383-24C40 -Jet Needle e-clip - 13394-31210 -Main Jet Washer (just to be safe) - 13382-03110 -Needle Valve - 13370-24C80 |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by TheSneeze on 01/10/22 at 10:29:55 It was definitely your wife's cats. I am certain of it. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by DragBikeMike on 01/10/22 at 21:23:00 Cats do the darndest things. Must've been the catnip. I would also procure an o-ring (13374-35C00) and a filter (13376-19F00). I believe they are pieces 20 & 21 on the illustrated parts breakdown. Thanks for the great photos. My compliments on a clean carburetor. While you are waiting for parts, check your main air bleed (MAB) to make sure it's not obstructed. The MAB provides air to the emulsion system in the needle jet. When you shoot carb cleaner through the MAB the cleaner should discharge out the needle jet cavity. The MAB is shown in this picture. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by DragBikeMike on 01/10/22 at 21:37:51 The photo of your slide looks a bit funny to me. Might just be lighting. There are two orifice holes in the bottom of the slide. Your photo makes the orifice holes appear as if they are covered up with white plastic or paper. Make sure those two holes are not covered up. The little plate that captures your slide needle has two notches that correspond to the orifice holes. Your plate orientation looks correct, but the holes appear as if they are covered up with something white. Make sure you can see straight through those orifice holes. If the holes are covered up, the slide will not lift. You have figured out that the float hinge pin is a press fit on one side. I can see the head of the pin is chewed up from attempts to remove. Be very careful with that pin. Always back up the aluminum post in the carb body when removing or installing the pin. You need some sort of anvil behind the post when you drive the pin in or out. I broke one of those posts on a very expensive Mikuni smooth bore. I have no clue why Mikuni felt they needed a press fit on the hinge pin. I am glad to hear that you are instituting new operating procedures. That petcock should NEVER be left on when the engine is not running. At least you got a good rinse on the lube system. Keep us posted. We want to hear how things shake out. Good luck, Mike |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 01/11/22 at 03:55:21 Mike thanks for taking a look. I'll add the 2 parts you mentioned to the cart as well. I also threw a new hinge pin in the cart for a little over a buck. On the diaphragm assembly, here's a little better pic. You're right, on that previous pic I posted it looks like there's some kind of plastic piece in those holes. They are open though. This pic shows that a little clearer. I'll run some carb cleaner though that main air bleed as well. Thanks again. Parts go on order today and I'll post a (hopefully) final update in a week or so. I'm really hoping this is The Case of the eBay Carburetor. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by DragBikeMike on 01/11/22 at 23:31:32 One last thing. In your photos, the notes state that the float was so out-of-whack that it couldn't shut the needle valve. The picture also shows the float tang grossly out of adjustment. How did you get that float level sight gage (picture in reply #15) to indicate correct float level? Did the cats have anything to do with that. Kidding aside, be careful with your float level. Make sure the needle valve and seat shut off by testing with air before you install the float bowl. Just turn the carb upside down and blow (with mouth) through the fuel line. The weight of the float should be all that's required to completely shut off air flow. If it leaks, it could be the needle & seat or the o-ring around the seat. No leaks allowed. Follow the manual for float adjustment. Make sure it falls within specifications (26.95 - 28.95mm). |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 01/12/22 at 04:52:51 ha! It's always the cat's fault! On on the tang, initially the first fuel level test showed that the fuel level was above the gasket. So, I adjusted it down (to what I now believe was the correct level). However, on the next test run not only did the bike continue to idle poorly, it also would cut out at 55-65mph or so (a new failure mode up to this point). Looking back, the idling issue was probably these junk parts and the cutout was probably related to junk carb parts. But anyhow, I adjusted the tang to raise the fuel level. That's when I adjusted it way too far. I think it was Lancer maybe who posted his fuel level and it was just about identical to what mine was prior to the maladjustment. So, I think the fuel level was fine. I'm guessing the idling and the stalls were caused by other carb issues (junk parts hopefully). That's good to know about the air test and after I make the adjustment by the book I'll try that as well. Here's a good lesson learned: When I adjusted the fuel to the pic below the gasket (which I now believe was the correct level), I did it by the book using that procedure and a proper measurement device (the ruler seen in that other pic showing my white spacer thickness). When I tried to "adjust it a little higher", not by the book and using my eyeballs :(. The difference was pretty obvious. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 01/22/22 at 12:40:55 IT WORKED!! Wow! This engine sounds like a sewing machine now! It purrrrrs like a kitten when it's idling and rides GREAT! I replaced all the junk ebay carb parts and pieces with the high dollar OEM parts described a few posts up and it made a HUGE difference. It runs like a real bike now. I'm so happy about this. I took it for a test ride today and it ran awesome. I had forgotten how fun these little savages are to ride. Ok now for some technical details and observations. . . The OEM needle jet was a tighter fit into the carb body than the previous one. I definitely made sure the little notch was lined up with the indent. It was also about 28 degrees in my garage too. I double checked float level (properly). I also did that blow-air-through-it test that DragBikeMike suggested earlier as a final sanity check. From the test ride, I think the float level is fine (I didn't do an official fuel level check after install). There was a little sputtering and stalling for about the first 30 seconds when the throttle was about 1/4 to 1/2 or so (accelerating through the gears basically). But that went away and never came back. And finally. . . The idle/mix screw now changes the behavior of the idle :) Yeah! I dialed that in as well. Thanks again for all the help on this carb. Looks like it was definitely The Case of the eBay Carb Parts. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by TheSneeze on 01/22/22 at 13:27:20 Nice work and motivation to get to the bottom of the problem. Success is always the reward for hard work. |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by B-Will on 01/22/22 at 17:57:02 UPDATE: I've been riding this bike all day. It's been running perfect with zero issues--except one. I pulled out of Walmart onto the main road and was sitting in the left turning lane. The bike sputtered and died. Then it fired right back up. Then it sputters and dies again but this time it wont start. Then, I get the green arrow but I'm sitting here like a schmuckatelly, dead in the lane. Then I remember, "oh yeah, my new habit is turning the fuel off after each ride." I reach down, turn the fuel petcock from the "off" to the "run" position, give the guy behind me a conciliatory wave, get the green arrow, fire the bike right up and take off like a bat outa hell (homage to the late great Meat Loaf). |
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Title: Re: Just Idle Talk Post by DragBikeMike on 01/24/22 at 18:38:12 So nice to hear you got it running correctly B-Will. Also good info pertaining to the eBay kit. Your experience proves those kits are junk. |
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