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Breather Blues (Read 1262 times)
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #45 - 10/26/19 at 10:32:06
 
Dave wrote on 10/26/19 at 06:32:46:
I am a little bit confused.....your vacuum gauge only reads a vacuum and not pressure.  Are you saying that with the valve installed it pulls a vacuum - but without the gauge it makes a "positive" pressure in the crankcase?  How did you read a positive on that vacuum gauge?


Look closer at the gauge face, Dave. The needle is double ended, and there is a pressure scale just inside the vacuum scale. One end of the needle reads vacuum, the other end reads pressure. Clever design.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #46 - 10/26/19 at 12:01:07
 
OK....I see the two sides now.

Vacuum is in inches of mercury - pressure side is in pounds.

So.....if it is 0.5 psi he read on the the gauge.........that equates to something around 1" of mercury.  The end result is he reduced the crankcase pressure by 1.5"....but more importantly he went from a pressure to a slight vacuum.

I guess DBM needs to set us straight - he might have already done the correction.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #47 - 10/26/19 at 12:43:44
 
Armen, I'm goin with copper base gasket.  Using a sealant will change the cylinder elevation.  I already have a bit too much compression.  If I do another cylinder, like a 97mm, I might only machine about .100 off the top and then use sealant on the base.

HotRod, yes, $100 for the KrankVent is pricey.  Originally, I was gonna make my own.  That's why I had the Harley umbrella valves.  But I got lazy and wanted to try this idea, so I sprung for the Hayden unit.  I think the idea has merit so it was worth the investment to forge ahead with the project.  I'm learning a lot.  I think it was a good investment for me.

Dave, yes, with the KrankVent it pulls a slight vacuum in the crankcase, and without the KrankVent it develops a slight pressure in the crankcase.  The vacuum gage is a crude instrument.  My reported values of 0.5" Hg vacuum with KrankVent, and 0.5" Hg pressure without KrankVent are estimations based on gage pointer position.  The graduations are in 1.0 increments so its simply my estimation based on what I observed.  I backed that up by installing a Sears vacuum gage.  It behaves the same way and the pointer moves about the same amount.  With either instrument, I arrive at the same conclusion.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #48 - 10/26/19 at 13:15:32
 
I wanted to get a better feel for how much vacuum this thing might pull.  The gasket failure didn't seem consistent with such a minute pressure differential.  So I cleaned up the area with mineral spirits and smashed a big mound of modeling clay over the leak zone.  I really piled on the clay to make sure its was sealed good.  I only tested it with the KrankVent installed because I figured vacuum will hold the clay dam in place, but pressure will blow it off.  With the leak plugged, it pulled 1.0" Hg vacuum.

These tests were done in my garage.  I just started it up and ran the engine unloaded up to about 5000 rpm.  I never rode it with the vacuum gage in place.  My intent was to ride it, but I found the leak.  That shut the test down.  For all I know, the blown gasket could simply be a coincidence.  The missing chunk of gasket could be inside the engine, or it could have blown out of the engine.  I wont know until I take it apart.

Regarding crankcase vacuum and oil pump suction.  Yes, I agree, the crankcase ambient pressure on both sides (suction & discharge) should be the same, so the DP across the pump should not be affected.  But this little pump doesn't appear to have any suction head at rest, and when the engine is operating, it looks to me like it will go into suction lift because the oil level in the sump will go down.  The temperature of the pumpage is elevated, possibly as high as 300 degrees.  My concern over pump suction was related to flashing.  If the contraption pulled too much vacuum it could reach the saturation pressure of the liquid.  I mentioned that it seemed like an unlikely problem, and now that I have a better feel for what sort of vacuum we are dealing with, I'm very confident that pump suction wont be a problem.  The oil pressure gage backs that assumption up.

The stuff I've been reading indicates that there are oiling problems associated with crankcase vacuum.  Wrist pins and exhaust valve guides can run dry.  But those problems don't come into play until crankcase vacuum approaches 10" Hg.  This thing isn't anywhere close to that.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #49 - 10/27/19 at 02:29:56
 
Mike:

I know this isn't your style of workmanship - but I suspect that if you replaced the modeling clay with some black RTV.......you could get a temporary repair that would hold up long enough for some additional test riding.  The RTV can be removed later on with a bit of labor - it comes off with plastic or wooden scrapers.......and also some forceful rubbing with your fingers.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #50 - 10/27/19 at 11:40:14
 
Thanks for the suggestion Dave.  Actually, that pretty much is my style of workmanship when it comes to troubleshooting.  As long as the blob doesn't screw up the surface cosmetically.  I did consider covering it with silicone, but the leak was going to get repaired and I didn't want to wait a day for the silicone to cure.  The engine is currently on the deck and ready for disassembly.  Copper base gaskets are on order.  I might regret not trying to test further, but its water under the bridge now.  

So let's say I get it apart and fix the base gasket.  Where's the next weak link.  I'm gonna say "alternator cover gasket".  Where can I get a copper gasket for that?  After that, I predict that the next weak link would be the output shaft seal (might start to run dry).  Is the minor improvement (perceived) worth all the trouble?  Of course, if you learn a bunch of good stuff in the process.  Wink

Hey Armen, is this what you are looking for?  It doesn't even require welding.  It's aviation grade man.  Cool

https://antisplataero.com/products/crankcase-vacuum-kit-complete
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #51 - 10/27/19 at 16:22:01
 
Somethin stinks here.  Shocked

I've been thinkin about this and I can't see any reason why this thing doesn't pull at least as much vacuum as the intake manifold.  There has to be another leak, and it has to be a one-way leak.  Air goes in but oil doesn't come out.  I'm thinkin the only thing that could cause that is an oil seal, like the output shaft or the shift shaft or the clutch actuator or the speedo drive.

Hmmmmm!
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #52 - 10/27/19 at 16:46:15
 
DBM

The reason I think you can't pull a lot of vacuum with a check valve, is the breather port is pretty small compared to the size of the piston.  As the piston comes down and the crankcase pressurizes - only a small portion of that squeezed air can get past the wire screen scrubby thingy and out the hose to the other side of the check valve.....and there is only a tiny fraction of a second before the piston starts back up and removes the pressure and begins to create the vacuum......and whatever blow by comes down the cylinder/piston/ring assembly is adding more volume to the air.

Without the check valve - I believe there is actually very little exchange of air going in and out the breather, as the small hole doesn't allow much air to rush in or out.....and there is just a constant +/- pressure pulse going on inside the engine - the vent only is bleeding off the increase that is the piston blow by caused by the combustion process.

I think it is pretty amazing that you are able to create any crankcase vacuum with a check valve - and I wonder if you will have any vacuum at all with the engine at full throttle and high rpm.....under a heavy load there may be so much blow by that the crankcase ends up being pressurized - and I wonder what the crankcase pressure is when the engine is at "full chat"?

As an example.....I was having some problem with an oil leak that was really difficult to find.  My bike would stay clean and shiny....but every now and then I would find oil up on the front of the fuel tank on the right side.  I thought maybe it was a fork seal - but they were fine and I never had any oil residue on the sliders.  I thought maybe the brake master cylinder was leaking.....nope.  Eventually I found that is was the O-ring down on the left side of the engine where the speedometer drive inserts into the engine case.  It only leaked when I would accelerate under full throttle - and I can ride for a whole month without running through the gears at full throttle.....I find riding around curves more fun than full throttle drag races.  When the oil came out around the speedometer drive, the swirling wind would carry the oil upward and forward and deposit it on the front of the tank....it was really a surprise to find the oil drops were carried so far forward without leaving a mess down by the source.  I surmised that the only reason it leaked was the crankcase pressure increased when I was at full throttle and pushed oil past the seal.  When I replaced the O-ring on the speedometer drive - the leak went away.  The piston is a 95mm Wiseco that was bored and received a silicone carbide treatment by Boretech, and it doesn't burn any oil and has good compression - so I don't believe my engine has any unusual amount of blow by.  This engine is notorious for sending oil out the breather when operated at sustained high rpm on the interstate - so I think it is somehow a "special feature" of this engine.

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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #53 - 10/27/19 at 23:44:54
 
I don't know Dave.  It pulls enough vacuum to do this.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #54 - 10/27/19 at 23:45:33
 
Here's a shot of the top side of the gasket.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #55 - 10/27/19 at 23:58:04
 
Before I tore it apart, I tried to test it by pulling a vacuum with my hand pump (one of those brake bleeder contraptions).  Best I could pull was 2" Hg.  I figure that big piston oughta be able to at least match that little hand pump.  It would slowly bleed down when I stopped pumping.  Maybe took five-seconds to drop back to zero.  

I looked over the entire engine for potential leak points.  Looks to me like there are just too many to seal up.  I could reverse the installation on the lip seals (output shaft, shift shaft, decompression shaft), but the speedo cable and starter would be difficult to plug up.

The sealing surfaces looked good.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #56 - 10/28/19 at 00:05:41
 
I cleaned up the old gasket material and installed the cylinder.  It mates up nicely with the crankcase.  I can't insert a .001" feeler, and if I lift the cylinder slightly and insert the feeler, when I rest the cylinder back down I can't pull the feeler out.  

I don't think the blow out is related to a bad sealing surface or gasket.  But I also find it hard to accept that the whimpy vacuum this thing pulls was enough to suck the gasket into the drain.

It's a nuclear phenomenon. Shocked

When I get it all back together with a nice copper base gasket, I will test it some more and see what happens.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #57 - 10/28/19 at 09:29:12
 
DBM, If I ever take the cylinder off I'll replace the base gasket with a copper one for insurance. Is that a Savage part, or aftermarket  ?  Thanks.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #58 - 10/28/19 at 12:28:19
 
I ordered the cylinder base gasket from Copper Gaskets Unlimited, Phoenix, AZ.  I sent him a new OEM gasket to use as a template.  He makes a CAD drawing and then uses the drawing in his equipment (I assume some sort of laser cutter).  So he will have the LS650 gasket CAD file and it will be easy to order from him in the future.  A variety of thicknesses are available so it will be easy to adjust deck height.  The stock gasket is .018".

coppergasketsunlimited@yahoo.com

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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #59 - 10/28/19 at 19:50:58
 
Thanks DBM. BTW, how much was the copper gasket?
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