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Breather Blues (Read 1262 times)
ohiomoto
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #15 - 10/07/19 at 07:03:59
 
Wait, did someone say "reed valve" ????  


Brapp, braaaapp...(sound of 2-strokes, music to my ears)  Smiley

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Great stuff DBM.  That would explain why our bikes run rich up top when we think they shouldn't.
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Ruttly
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #16 - 10/07/19 at 08:16:46
 
I guess I'm gonna revisit the vacuum thing. When I was doing speed runs I would lean it out a bit at about 80 mph using the Intelajet , it made a difference. But that 85 to 100+ zone is a struggle , if it had EFI it would already have a turbo.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #17 - 10/07/19 at 14:49:58
 
Did you say turbo? (it's easier than that).


      Tuneing your intake
Http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/Yabb.pl?num=1464235388/90

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« Last Edit: 10/21/19 at 21:12:02 by batman »  

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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #18 - 10/07/19 at 15:40:02
 
Batman, can you fill me in on that link?  I can't access it.

Regarding comments by Hotrod & Armen, I have been toying with a check valve idea for a long time now.  This is a picture of some umbrella valves for a late model Harley.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #19 - 10/07/19 at 15:48:04
 
My bud Pete Kogut, who did the Norton Club mag for years, and raced a very fast Norton, had a good idea. He used the backbone of the frame for a breather can.
A quick look at the Savage says this idea merits further investigation....
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #20 - 10/07/19 at 15:53:50
 
There's some holes in the bottom of the frame for drainage.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #21 - 10/07/19 at 16:14:04
 
Harley uses these umbrella valves in the head vents.  I believe when they first implemented the umbrella valves they eliminated the timed breather gear.  They run a dry sump so the scavenge pump and crank scraper tend to depress crankcase pressure.  The timed breather gear acts as a one-way valve of sorts.  I think when they incorporated the umbrella valves in the rocker boxes they ditched the timed breather setup (it was complicated).  I don't think that particular innovation eliminated the constant puking all over the air filter and right side of the engine.

But the umbrella valves fit the bill for me, and I have a plan to try and fabricate a check assembly using the Harley umbrella valve.  Wish me luck.

My Burgman uses a reed valve in the head vent.  Nothing comes out of that. Its a 650cc twin with a 360 degree crank, so both pistons move up & down together. The reed valve assembly for that is compact so it might be a good candidate and probably sized correctly.  The Burgman redlines at 8500.

Hayden makes a device called a "crank vent plus".

https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/hayden-krank-vent-plus-crankcase-breather...

It looks to be about perfect in terms of size.  If I get nowhere with my umbrella valve project maybe I will resort to the Hayden product.

For now, the catch can is working fine.  I went out this morning for four timed pulls and a detonation check.  The timed pulls went well and there was no hint of the dreaded spark knock with 98 octane fuel.  I threw in a 7200 rpm 4th gear pull just to put icing on the cake.  It ran fine and the vids look like its starting to run a bit leaner.  Pulling all the excess oil out of the filter element.  It's about an eight-mile round trip to my closed-course track, and it's mostly freeway riding.  

I let it cool down and checked the catch can drain.  Bone dry.  Not a drop came out of the drain.  The area around the K&N breather filter is completely dry and there is absolutely zero oil anywhere around the catch can.  That tells me that the stock breather location in the airbox actually sets up this oil mess dilemma.  There has to be a slight depression below ambient where the breather hose ties in, otherwise there wouldn't be any air traveling through the filter element.  I'm thinkin that slight depression unbalances the vent system and results in oil carry-over.  It must be worse with the stock paper element.

So far so good.  I'm likin this contraption.  Cool

Armen, a shop vac on the breather?  Man, you are ambitious.  Shocked  Ya got any pics of your OoohBabyOoohBabyOooh Ducati reed assembly.  That sounds exotic and expensive but I'm always up for another pony or two.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #22 - 10/07/19 at 16:20:08
 
DBM, the shop vac was just to test the theory and see if it was worth doing some sort of crankcase vacuum gag.
One of the reasons the car guys use negative pressure is to be able to run low tension rings. Rings seal because of the difference in pressure above and below the ring. A significant portion of frictional losses come from the rings.
Having said that, the passive system with a hose into the exhaust appeals to me for it's simplicity.
Thanks for keeping us posted, DBM!
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #23 - 10/07/19 at 20:00:25
 
If you are looking for one of those exhaust fittings, Moroso makes them.  I used to see them every now and then at the AHDRA events.  I think you can get one from Summit or Jeggs.  As I recall, they are cheap too.  You could probably buy one and chop it up (similar to your chopped up head), then figure out what makes it tick, any subtle details, so you could fabricate your own.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #24 - 10/08/19 at 07:15:30
 
               DBM.       just do a search for -Tuning your intake -( Free turbocharging)  how my stock motor pushes my bike to 90-92 mph.

    There might be danger if the evacuation from under the piston  is to efficient , aren't things like the piston rings/skirts , cylinder walls  , cam chain /gears  basically "splash"( oil mist) lubricated ?   The breather hose exits from the top of the motor for a reason , if it was just to relieve the pressure / vacuum , under the piston  ,then it could have been run from the crank case .
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #25 - 10/08/19 at 11:37:39
 
I don't think the lack of air will reduce splash but will increase range.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #26 - 10/08/19 at 12:19:07
 
DBM:

Hopefully you found your gremlin and the source of the rich mixture.

I made a small metal breather can and mounted it to the bottom of the flat plate on the muffler....and it has the same scrubby mixture inside.  The vent from the head goes to the can and exits near the bottom of the can, there is vent hose that returns to the intake between the filter and carb inlet......and a capped drain on the bottom of the canister.

I have never had any problems with this setup and it did not affect the fuel mixture at full throttle in any gear.  I get very little oil when I drain the breather box.  However - I do suspect that because of the long hose routing and somewhat small fitting at the carb.....there is some positive pressure in the crankcase during hard acceleration.  My speedo drive O-ring would sometimes weep oil out during hard acceleration - until I put in a new O-ring.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #27 - 10/08/19 at 12:54:49
 
I would think that inlet to the puke can should be low and the exhaust at the top to the intake.  
The addition of a small line (with a check valve to restrict the inflow) at the bottom would serve to return any accumulation to the crankcase.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #28 - 10/08/19 at 17:18:42
 
How much vaccuum do we need ? I imagine not much , but if someone has that number that would be appreciated.
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Re: Breather Blues
Reply #29 - 10/09/19 at 10:07:59
 
There isn't any hard and fast rule of pressure, but the lower you can keep the pressure the better. Anything that reduces the amount of air trapped in the crankcase improves performance. When the piston is on a downstroke it is compressing the air in the crankcase as it is being forced out the vent, and on the upstroke it is trying to draw 40 cubic inches of air back in through the vent. Both actions waste power. A check valve will prevent air from being drawn back into the crankcase which will lower the pressure in the cases quite a bit.

One of our track cars at work runs a vacuum pump and dry sump oiling, lowering crankcase pressure as well as reducing oil drag on the rotating assembly. Every little bit helps performance.
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