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Compression Project (Read 1001 times)
DragBikeMike
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Re: Compression Project
Reply #45 - 08/31/19 at 14:00:55
 
JCStokes, yes, I machined .130" off the top of the cylinder.  I was on the fence for awhile trying to decide whether or not to remove the material from the top or the bottom.  

Taking it off the bottom is a bit harder because you have to stop the cut right at the cylinder liner.  It also is a bit more critical to maintain perpendicularity so you don't end up tipping the cylinder to the right or left.  Taking it off the top is easier to machine but there's that pesky oil feed groove to worry about.  In the end, the design made it easier to decide.  Seems there is a flange in the bottom of the liner that locks the liner in-place.  I had no idea how thick the flange is and didn't want to risk lobbing it off, so I took the material off the top.

Here is a shot of the flange in question.
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Cylinder_Liner_Flange_2.jpg

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Re: Compression Project
Reply #46 - 08/31/19 at 14:04:05
 
Do we need to take up a collection for you to get a flipping pencil sharpener?
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Re: Compression Project
Reply #47 - 08/31/19 at 14:06:22
 
Here is a shot that shows the new cylinder deck after machining.  You can see there is no longer a raised flange, its now flush with the top cooling fin.
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Deck_Cut_2_2.jpg

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Re: Compression Project
Reply #48 - 08/31/19 at 14:17:21
 
Lancer, thanks for sharing those numbers along with some historical info on your mod.  Looks to me like you reduced the cylinder head height about .040".  You also had a slightly larger bore.  Both affect CR.  I'm gonna try and plug the appropriate numbers into the calculator to see what the static CR was.

The dynamic CR is dependent on intake valve closing.  If my memory serves me correctly, Dave was kind enough to loan me a Stage I for timing checks.  If that's the case, I should be able to see what the calculator predicts for cranking pressure.

I'm comfy with the calculator results on static CR, that's straight forward number crunching.  But the dynamic calculator didn't predict my cranking pressure worth a darn.  It will be interesting to see the results.

I might add, when I used the calculator for a stock Savage engine, it predicted 8.2:1 CR and 152 psi cranking pressure.  That's very close.  I have no clue why it was so far off on this modification I am in the middle of.
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jcstokes
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Re: Compression Project
Reply #49 - 08/31/19 at 14:19:28
 
Jesus, 130thou is over 1/8 inch, will this affect flow/ quantity in the oil groove, and what does the oil grove feed?
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Compression Project
Reply #50 - 08/31/19 at 14:37:21
 
Hey Armen, I'm flattered that you and I were on the same wave length.  How were you planning to deal with the slack cam chain?

Great tip on checking for adequate valve-to-piston clearance.  I normally use checking springs, but in this case I was simply too lazy.  I already knew the TDC lift numbers, and scooping out .130" valve reliefs made me pretty close to positive that there would be loads of clearance.  I use the soft springs to make it easier to bar the engine through and provide better feel in the event of contact.  Your method is way cooler.  I'm likin it.

As far as the dyno is concerned, yes, I want to get it on a dyno.  Those are few & far between out here, and since they closed down our race track in 2006, there's not a whole lot of demand for dyno time.  My last attempt was a disaster and wasted a bunch of my time.  That's why I am now doing videos of the tach during testing, and then timing acceleration from 4K to 7K.  The video record along with the A/F meter work excellent for test & tune.  Not perfect but it certainly gives a good indication if things are better or worse.  I'm very satisfied with the performance results on this project.  But there's just nothin like havin an actual horsepower & torque curve.  I'm workin on it.

I've been meaning to retard timing on this thing for awhile now.  Would be nice if there was a way to adjust it without tearing everything apart.  I agree, taking some advance out should be beneficial with the increased squeeze and tighter quench.  I'm thinkin if I have to retard more than 4 degrees it would be better to tear it down and dish the piston.  What do you think?

BTW, your loan of your chopped up head got me started on this crazy project.  Thanks again.  Then, The Fastman fixed me up with the HammerHead and it's been Nirvana ever since.  These old beat-up parts serve as fabulous test beds for ideas.  Don't throw em away.
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Re: Compression Project
Reply #51 - 08/31/19 at 21:37:18
 
What is total advance now? Seems a really happy motor runs about 28 degrees total advance. Can't think of any that did less. Lots of crappy combustion chambers ran a lot more.
Most welcome for the loan of the jigsaw head.
I honestly didn't think it would be .130" cut. Judging by the numbers being thrown around, I knew the bike had zippola squish.
As far as I got was to think about extending the tensioner, and putting a piece of steel rod in the center of the spring to limit the amount of travel back into the tensioner. Was going to put a window in the side of the cylinder so I could check tension cold and hot and come up with an ideal cold chain tension.
Got seriously sidetracked on my project.
Just this past week I finally got back to it.
Did the double-wide sprocket bearing and the modified axle spacer. Removed a bit of the exhaust donut.
Then I spent a ton of time on the side stand (modified 675 Triumph). Then the muffler bracket. And........
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Re: Compression Project
Reply #52 - 09/01/19 at 04:28:13
 
I go away for a few days.......and DBM is turning the Savage world upside down! Huh

I also noticed that the sound of my engine changed  considerably when I put the 95mm Wiseco in.  The additional compression seems to make the power pulses more pronounced and this extra power resonates out of the engine when you are using that power.

If the Wiseco were to be modified I am not sure the actual deck height would be changed much.....the top of the piston had a relief cut all the way around the top OD of the piston - improvement might be as simple as eliminating the relief.

Good work DBM!
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Re: Compression Project
Reply #53 - 09/01/19 at 08:11:12
 
  Mike ,If the problem is to high of a compression ratio , rather than retarding ignition timing , or machining the piston dome , due to your static compression being 245 psi , I would  backup a bit and remove the advance in cam timing.  the exhaust valve's early opening may have something to due with the strange  noise your hearing , higher chamber pressure still has to find it's way out of the head through the same size valve seat. the intake valve's earlier closing has also boosted your CR ,something I didn't see taken into account in the compression formula you used that arrived at 215psi . You could also drop CR AND increase the effectiveness of the quench you've created by the use of Singh grooves. the loss of compression might be made up by the increase of combustion efficiency .
          As far as I know ignition timing advance stops a about 5000rpm, the fact that your getting 7000 rpm out of second gear (500 rpm over redline) hints the  ignition is pretty forgiving ( and fast with the sparkplug centered in the head) .I really don't see that retarding it farther would be necessary, or that you would see a perceptive change. A 2-4 degree change might be negated simply by changes in elevation.(but may show slight improvement as you get closer to sea level).
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« Last Edit: 09/01/19 at 15:53:28 by batman »  

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Re: Compression Project
Reply #54 - 09/01/19 at 16:56:12
 
Armen, that quest for a featherweight is a never ending battle.  I admire your tenacity.  If you folks haven't seen any pics of Armen's masterpiece, I suggest you lobby hard for a look see.  It belongs in the Guggenheim.

Regarding ignition advance curve:

The factory service manual lists advance on the original Savage as 5 degrees BTDC before 2000 rpm, and 30 degrees BTDC after 4000 rpm.

Then, in 1988 that spec was changed to 5 degrees +/- 2 degrees BTDC below 2000 rpm, and 30 degrees +/- 2 degrees BTDC above 4000 rpm.  This spec remained unchanged until 2003.

Then from 2004 to present, the spec is listed as 5 degrees BTDC at 1100 rpm.

Data I took and posted back in April of 2018 showed that my 2016 LS650 (stock at that time) was running 3 degrees at idle and 27 degrees fully advanced.  This old post gives the lowdown on that test.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1521968829

So Armen, your 28 degree threshold might be right on.  But alas, I must try.  I used to run 25 degrees on my hotrod Harley, but that was with a power adder.  Virtually everything I have read and am currently reading suggests that you pull out timing when you jack up compression.  That's not intended for protection.  Its for the exact reason you gave, the charge is more turbulent and homogeneous so it burns a lot faster.  Hence, you need to light it off a bit later.  We are in total agreement.

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Re: Compression Project
Reply #55 - 09/01/19 at 17:11:38
 
Lancer, I took a look at the scenario you described.  Milling .025" didn't tighten up the quench but did reduce combustion chamber volume.  Taking .015" off the cylinder tightened the pseudo quench a bit (reduced it to .175"), but IMO not enough to improve combustion any appreciable amount.

I had to make an assumption regarding your finished combustion chamber volume.  I assumed that milling .025" off the head surface would be approximately equivalent to 70% of a reduction in volume due to reducing cylinder height by .025".  So I figured out the volume of a 3.700" cylinder .025" tall and took 70% of that.  It worked out to 3cc.

I reduced combustion chamber volume from 57cc to 54cc and plugged all the numbers into the rbracing calculator.  The result was a static compression ratio of 8.73:1.

Then I used that value, along with an intake closing point of 40 degrees ABDC @ .050" lift (data from Dave's Stage I), and an elevation of 652 feet (based on your location) and plugged that data into the dynamic calculator.  That predicted a cranking pressure of 157 psi.

Like I mentioned earlier, I'm comfy with the static calculator, but the dynamic I'm not so sure for our application.  It's a Harley specific calculator so there might be induced errors when applied to a metric cruiser.

What sort of performance gain did you experience with that setup?

BTW, how did you puncture your crankcase?
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Re: Compression Project
Reply #56 - 09/01/19 at 17:24:30
 
Dave, I agree the bump in CR makes a distinct change in the exhaust note.  Mine went from a muted  thud, thud, thud to a muted pop, pop, pop.  It sounds healthier, but I certainly wouldn't say pleasant, or muscular.  Let's face it, this ain't no V-Twin.  My muffler is also very quiet.

The raised top of the Wiseco is .060" above the flat top of the piston.  In addition, the flat top of the Wiseco is .025" taller that the stock piston.  So if the Wiseco were simply manufactured with the entire top flat as you suggest, it would reduce the quench clearance by .085".  That would give us .105" quench clearance.  I didn't run the numbers on that but I intend to.  No doubt it will raise the CR and the cranking pressure, but I'm not sure we would realize much additional turbulence.  One benefit of having the top flat is there is nothing to impede flame travel.  I don't think the current Wiseco impedes flame travel, but if the pop top were tall enough to protrude into the combustion pocket in the head it would tend to trap unburned charge in the areas that surround the combustion chamber (the pseudo quench zone).

I took the measurement on the pop top with a cheap depth mic but I think it should be good within a couple thousandths.
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Wiseco_060_Pop_Top_1_2.jpg

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Re: Compression Project
Reply #57 - 09/01/19 at 17:26:27
 
This shot shows the Wiseco and the stock piston sharing the same wrist pin.  If you look close, you can see the flat top portion of the Wiseco just slightly higher than the stocker.
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Re: Compression Project
Reply #58 - 09/01/19 at 17:28:14
 
In this shot, the pistons are still sharing the same wrist pin.  When I lay the .025" feeler on the stocker, there is no discernable step between the two pistons.
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Wiseco_vs_Stock_4_2.jpg

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Re: Compression Project
Reply #59 - 09/01/19 at 17:54:07
 
Batman, I originally planned on using the cam retard trick if this thing posed a compression issue.  I've used it in the past and it can provide some relief under the right set of circumstances.  I figured if there was too much compression I would experience the classic symptoms, hard starting and knocking when I lugged the engine.  Closing the intake later starts the effective stroke later. That makes the engine easier to crank and tends to eliminate detonation when lugging the engine at low speed.

That's not the case with this engine.  I'm not even sure if it actually is detonating.  I simply don't have any experience with cranking pressure this high running on pump gas.  It starts right up and I don't get any audible indication of knocking doing day-to-day street cruising.  There's no visible indicators either, like ugly spark plugs or sand-blasted piston tops.  All seems normal.  

The only time I think I might be hearing any bad noise is at high rpm.  Under that condition, the retarded cam timing will enhance inertia filling and bring the pressure up rather than bleeding it off.  For now, I'm going to leave cam timing set right on the factory marks.

I'm not sure about Singh grooves.  I really don't get the concept.  I viewed one of his infomercials on throttle bodies but it just didn't seem logical.  Maybe I missed something.  You've mentioned that you incorporated those grooves into your engine/carburetor.  Do you have any pictures you can share so we can get a better idea about what they look like, where they go, how to cut them, angles, depths, etc.    

My primary reason for pulling out timing is performance.  I think it will make more power with less ignition advance.  If that provides a little more margin for preventing detonation, bonus.  It also gives me the opportunity to play with that ignition pickup and figure out a good way to move it around.  It would be great if the system had a vacuum retard like a Harley.

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