Donate!
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register :: View Members
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8
Send Topic Print
Compression Project (Read 997 times)
LANCER
Serious Thumper
Alliance Member
*****
Offline

Savage Beast
Performance Parts

Posts: 10606
Oklahoma
Gender: male
Re: Compression Project
Reply #60 - 09/02/19 at 05:05:50
 
Performance with the setup as described above ?
-94.5mm piston, stock CR
-Stage 1 cam
-good flowing muffler, memory is fuzzy on stock or 1.75” OD header

I had a 4.9 sec. 0-60 and a 12.1 sec. with a speed of the high 80’s in the 1/4 mi., from a standing start.
That is the only hard data I had.
This was about 12 years ago.

It ran very well, easy start, smooth idle, no hiccups going to wide open, acceleration was quick, had to lean over the bars to keep the front wheel down on launch.  The standing start launch hampered the times a bit because of that.
After spending 30 minutes doing these runs I decided I needed to beef up the clutch so installed HD springs later.

On the road it felt like getting out of a VW Bug and into a small sports car.  Noticeably quicker with a little extra top speed.  Passing on the highway was made easy.  It was a blast to ride.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
batman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 3806
osceola new york
Gender: male
Re: Compression Project
Reply #61 - 09/02/19 at 09:11:11
 
Mike I talked about the Singh groves ,but I''ve never had my motor torn down ,it remains stock . I did use the Gagetman groove in the stock CV carb  I run , That groove is just in front of the throttle plate , at idle and low throttle setting the fuel slides down the plate hits the grove and is deflected up into the center of the intake passage ,finely atomized . saving fuel at idle, (mpg increased by 3.5 ) and allows me to run down to 40 mph in 5th gear with no hesitation when accelerating .
      The use of the Singh groves have a few benefits ,   Suzuki's claim of a TSCC ,I find doubtful , Intake velocity drops to zero as the piston approaches TDC , and the intake valve closes at 11 degrees before TDC, and the cam has no overlap. How much swirl  does it provide then? just when you need it most for better ignition probability. The Singh groves provide added turbulence as the piston rises to TDC ,and provides a path for the flame front to enter the quench zone for complete burning, (something you were concerned about and I would be too -not a good place for carbon build up).    the grooves start at the back of the qench zone and proceed to the front at a 4 degree angle , start with a hacksaw blade , and finish the groove V shaped with a knife blade file ,rounding the edges at the surface slightly (to avoid carbon buildup. ) the amount of material removed will decrease your CR ,you'll have to cc the head to know how much .  the other benefits of the grooves are with more complete combustion comes better mpg and reduced  head temperatures in spite of you higher CR.  You way think Singh is a wako ,but he has a US patient.  Ford motor company filed a patient for a similar device 6 months later.The Singh grooves show there best performance in mid rpm but that's where the bike runs most of the time. IF I ever get into my motor I'll be employing them,but I'm the jerk who tossed his tensioner paw  away 19000 miles ago!
Back to top
 
 

my old work mates called me MacGyver
  IP Logged
justin_o_guy2
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

What happened?

Posts: 55279
East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.
Re: Compression Project
Reply #62 - 09/02/19 at 11:13:49
 
Makes me wonder why it exists.
Except for the fact that it sends bikes to the graveyard, in to shops, and sells chains..
Are we supposed to believe the factory never even tested the idea of no pawl?
Gutsy move, and really, Frikken smart, which is kinda rare for jerks.
Back to top
 
 

The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
  IP Logged
Armen
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Half-Witted
Wrench-Jockey from
Jersey

Posts: 1432

Re: Compression Project
Reply #63 - 09/02/19 at 11:53:01
 
Batman,
Are you sure about your numbers???
Intake open til 11 degrees BTDC?
Maybe 11 degrees after BDC?
Can't imagine any engine having a piston coming up on an open intake valve.
Back to top
 
 

In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren't...
  IP Logged
batman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 3806
osceola new york
Gender: male
Re: Compression Project
Reply #64 - 09/02/19 at 12:13:51
 
No wrong numbers  ,my best guess is 26 degrees before TDC for the intake to be closed . And yes the valve is open as the piston rises that's why the torque peak doesn't occur until 3400rpm. the cylinder doesn't fill because the piston pushes the fuel air mix back into the intake passage.
Back to top
 
 

my old work mates called me MacGyver
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Online

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4222
Honolulu
Re: Compression Project
Reply #65 - 09/02/19 at 14:58:28
 
Wow Lancer, 12.1 quarter mile.  That's sweet.  Was that at the dragstrip or did you use some sort of performance analyzer?  What carburetor were you running with that setup?

I was hoping you would share how you punctured the engine case.  Its always good to know the lowdown on failures like that.

Batman, do you have any pictures or sketches of the groove in your carburetor.  Regarding the groove you are describing, I assume its in the piston.  Do you have a sketch, or a link to the website.

Regarding cam timing.  Using the tried & true direct measurement method, the stock cam puts the intake valve on the deceleration ramp at 70 degrees after BDC.  At that point, it is only open .015".  From there, it gradually places the valve on the seat, and the valve is on the seat at 70 degrees before TDC.  For all intents & purposes, there really isn't anything flowing through the intake valve once it enters deceleration at 70 degrees ABC.
 
Back to top
 

Stock_Cam_Data__Valve.jpg

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
batman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 3806
osceola new york
Gender: male
Re: Compression Project
Reply #66 - 09/02/19 at 15:52:53
 
OK I'm all wet  ! on the numbers but there's still 70 degrees of piston moving upward from BDC while the intake is open .the pressure  building in the cylinder only has to over come the pressure of the intake (14.7 psi) before some is pushed back.
Back to top
 
 

my old work mates called me MacGyver
  IP Logged
LANCER
Serious Thumper
Alliance Member
*****
Offline

Savage Beast
Performance Parts

Posts: 10606
Oklahoma
Gender: male
Re: Compression Project
Reply #67 - 09/02/19 at 16:06:51
 
Case damage was done on I-26 in SC.  Size/shape just like the top of a piggy bank, a narrow slit the size of a 50 cent piece; squared corners and all.  Strange.  Never found what hit it.
Metal-metal screeching sounds and then seizure.  It did restart 40 min later and limped to get me home then pulled the engine.  Hole was welded.  You can still see the scar.

Did the runs on a flat 2 lane country road.  Did runs both ways alternating.
Was running the stock carb, jetted, with a Dail-a-jet.  Hi, and the slide had been drilled a bit, the two holes on the bottom.
I had the Veypor computer mounted on the bike.  The data gathered from that gives immediate time, speed and exact distance traveled, with an acceleratorometer to detect the instant movement is detected.  Then all data is down loaded into a computer program that provided second by second hp, Torque, rpm, and a dozen or more others.  
Anyway, it worked.


With stock gearing and some added perkiness it had a real tendency to jump off the line.  I don’t care for wheel spin, it eats rubber and slows times
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
batman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 3806
osceola new york
Gender: male
Re: Compression Project
Reply #68 - 09/03/19 at 06:23:29
 
Mike , sorry I forgot to say that the grooves aren't placed in the piston ,they're in the major quench areas of the head .directly between each set of valves  ,only two grooves for our 4 valve head . pointing at the sparkplug. Sommender Singh grooves is all over the web with pics
Back to top
 
 

my old work mates called me MacGyver
  IP Logged
ohiomoto
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 2697
WTF is JOG?
Re: Compression Project
Reply #69 - 09/03/19 at 07:07:02
 
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17832
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Compression Project
Reply #70 - 09/03/19 at 10:42:13
 
The Singh grooves cut into the flathead/sidevalve head do look like they would help the flame front travel to the far corners of the combustion chamber....the far edge if the piston is very far away from the spark plug.  The machining marks are a good indication they have cut the head down to reduce the combustion chamber size to increase compression in this engine.

I am not so convinced it would help the Savage much - the spark plug is central to the combustion chamber, and the size of the squish areas are very small....and the combustion chamber is mostly open as the piston is flat and the head is domed.  I don't see how the travel of the flame front is restricted in any way.

But......I am also not an expert in this area! Huh  
Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Online

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4222
Honolulu
Re: Compression Project
Reply #71 - 09/03/19 at 12:40:32
 
Jeeez Lancer, that case damage incident sounds like it could have been a lot worse.  You're fortunate that road hazard didn't bring you down.  Ouch!!!  What did that Veypor computer gizmo give you for HP & torque?

Batman, those grooves sure look interesting.  I'm lovin that old-school sidevalve head.  Ah, the good old days.  The pentroof sure is pretty.  Thanks for the pictures.  I will give the grooves some thought.  I intend to be tearing it down fairly soon to add the next stage of modification (the larger valves), so who knows, maybe I'll try the grooves.  But to be honest, I don't see the technical merit.  One of the objects of the tight quench is to force the hideout charge out of the quench area, the groove sort of defeats that.  I agree with Dave, the concept seems more credible on the sidevalve.  One big downside of that groove is it is absolutely not reversible.  If it doesn't work out, the head is a boat anchor.  But I will google search this guy Singh and see what he has to say.

You got any pics of the groove you put in your carburetor?  You have some bonafide first hand experience with that so I would say it warrants a closer look.
Back to top
 
 

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
LANCER
Serious Thumper
Alliance Member
*****
Offline

Savage Beast
Performance Parts

Posts: 10606
Oklahoma
Gender: male
Re: Compression Project
Reply #72 - 09/03/19 at 14:46:50
 
Seems like the hp worked out to be about 42.  
I had some difficulty when I initially tried to use the program and came up with an odd assortment of numbers, but got the procedure down and got consistent numbers.  That is where 42 came from.
I do not remember the torque number.
Do the time, speed and hp numbers seem appropriate ?
12.1 sec, 89mph in the 1/4 mi. from 42 hp and with a total weight of 550 lbs. bike & rider ? ?


Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Armen
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Half-Witted
Wrench-Jockey from
Jersey

Posts: 1432

Re: Compression Project
Reply #73 - 09/03/19 at 17:57:04
 
Hey Batman,
Had to dig thru the factory manual for the cam timing numbers. Here they be:
Back to top
 

Savage_Cam_Timing.jpg

In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren't...
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Online

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4222
Honolulu
Re: Compression Project
Reply #74 - 09/04/19 at 02:36:07
 
In response to Lancer’s questions “Do the time, speed and hp numbers seem appropriate?
12.1 sec, 89mph in the 1/4 mi. from 42 hp and with a total weight of 550 lbs. bike & rider??”

Not having swung a leg over the motorcycle in question, I can only comment based on my own limited experience modifying engines and play racing over the years, various books that I have, and readily available calculators that can be found on the internet.  I am by no measure an expert on the Savage, that’s why I hang out in this forum.

Lancer provided the following information on engine modifications.  Bore 94.5mm, CR stock, Stage I cam, good flowing muffler, stock carb with a dial-a-jet.   Looks to me like a very mildly modified engine with stock compression, free flowing exhaust and a mild street cam (about 220° duration).

Increasing the stock horsepower from 30 to 42 represents a 40% improvement.  That seems optimistic given that the cylinder head and compression ratio are stock.  Generally, modifications like this would probably result in a 10 to 15% improvement in HP.  For example, when I did the dyno run on my engine after installing the DR650 cam, modifying the muffler & airbox, machining the flywheel, and rejetting the stock carburetor, I had an 11% improvement.  I thought that was reasonable for the level of modification.  So, IMO the 42 HP predicted by the Vaypor computer is suspect.  That could be a result of any one of several variables (vibration, input error, issues with the download, corrupted data, erroneous data, bad satellite link, etc.).

The quarter mile speed seems out of line with the elapsed time.  I have a table from “The V-Twin Tuner’s Handbook” that correlates MPH & ET.  A 12.1 ET correlates to 108 mph.  If I go the other way, 89 mph correlates to a 14.51 ET.  I personally think that for the Savage, a 14 second quarter is respectable.  If you consider that road tests in motorcycling periodicals pegged it as a low 16-second/high 15-second econo-cruiser, runs in the mid 14’s are a big improvement.

If you use any of the readily available calculators on the internet, significantly more than 42 horsepower would be required to hurl the Savage through the traps in 12.1 seconds.  Those calculators align closely with a formula in the V-Twin Tuner’s Handbook.  That formula is:

ET equals 6.183 times the cube root of weight over horsepower.  

If you crank Lancer’s weight and HP value through that formula, you get an elapsed time of 14.5 seconds.

To arrive at a 12.1 second elapsed time, the formula predicts that you must increase HP to 73, or reduce weight to 320 lbs.

If you want to play with some of the calculators, here’s some links.  None of these calculators or formulas are perfect, but they are useful tools.

Estimate quarter mile ET from MPH

https://speedmaster79.com/tools/14et-mph

Calculate ET and trap speed from HP & weight

https://robrobinette.com/et.htm

ET & MPH calculator

http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

Formula for ET from HP & Weight

https://www.stealth316.com/2-calc-hp-et-mph.htm
Back to top
 
 

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8
Send Topic Print


« Home

 
« Home
SuzukiSavage.com
05/18/24 at 13:38:11



General CategoryRubber Side Down! › Compression Project


SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved.