SuzukiSavage.com - Good Guys With Guns

MnSpring Serious Thumper Offline Younger than most people my age. Posts: 8996 Minn Gender:	Re: Good Guys With Guns Reply #60 - 11/14/18 at 14:52:22 Serowbot wrote on 11/14/18 at 14:41:46: How many people are accidentally killed by life jackets every year?... Don't know. Do wonder how many people are saved, by putting up a Smoke Alarm? Which, clearly makes one ‘paranoid’, by the he/she called tt. Because, the ONLY reason you have it, is to PROTECT you from a Fire !
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Eegore

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Re: Good Guys With Guns
Reply #61 - 11/14/18 at 15:04:35

I asked:

If I can install a security camera doorbell and a home alarm I do, its safer, does having a camera and security system make me paranoid?

You stated:

Yes, it does.

So by installing a security camera doorbell I am paranoid. Paranoia is a mental illness according to DSM (DSM-5 301.0 ) and is classifiable because of the following:

"a clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual [which] is associated with present distress ... or disability ... or with a significant increased risk of suffering"

So security camera doorbells = paranoia, or in other words a facilitating example of mental illness.

Or its safer. The line isn't thin, its literally definable based off of decades of categorized criteria. If home security devices are compelling evidence of mental disorder why are they not part of the DSM?

Maybe because safety and preparedness isn't the only measurable criteria for evaluating mental illness, but by your logic it is.

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MnSpring Serious Thumper Offline Younger than most people my age. Posts: 8996 Minn Gender:	Re: Good Guys With Guns Reply #62 - 11/14/18 at 15:09:08 Serowbot wrote on 11/14/18 at 14:41:46: How many people are accidentally killed by life jackets every year?... How many people are SAVED each year by 'Life Jackets' ? Just don't think many are wearing PFD's, (Personal Flotation Devices), as a fashion statement.
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Re: Good Guys With Guns
Reply #63 - 11/14/18 at 15:15:41

"Your, pure FEAR Planting,
‘Assumes’, the bad guy with a gun, KNOWS, who, and exactly where, the 8 people, (out of 150), are in a dark theater. And shoots them First !"

My assessment is that people without consistent adrenal based target acquisition training will rapidly fire upon targets without accuracy or often times immediate recollection of the expanse of time, target, or resource usage during a life threatening event.

People without consistent training tend to pull the trigger 3 times before realizing their weapon has emptied, when under duress. This information I have collected working over the past 11 years at various FLETC and other training facilities worldwide.

A crowded theatre of 300 people with one active shooter gaining access from one of 3 public accessible entry points will experience return fire, however of the 8 additional active shooters it is very possible that due to adrenaline alone that bystanders will be hit.

I see firearms equivocal to automobiles in this scenario. More cars on the road doesn't mean there will absolutely be more vehicle fatalities, but historically that is what has happened. More guns introduced randomly into a crowd of people in a restricted place doesn't mean there absolutely will be more firearm related fatalities, but there is little evidence that suggests otherwise.

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Re: Good Guys With Guns
Reply #64 - 11/14/18 at 15:17:40

Serowbot wrote on 11/14/18 at 14:41:46:

How many people are accidentally killed by life jackets every year?...

I suppose it's not clear to you...
the question is not 'how many are killed by _______ ' (insert safety device/firearm here)
It's 'are you paranoid because you have a _______ ' (insert safety device/firearm here)

It is not paranoia to own a (insert safety device/firearm here)
Paranoia is a mental condition which taint knows all about.

And yes, you can kill someone with a life jacket, even accidentally.

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MnSpring

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Re: Good Guys With Guns
Reply #65 - 11/14/18 at 15:45:19

Eegore wrote on 11/14/18 at 15:15:41:

"... My assessment is that people without consistent adrenal based target acquisition training will rapidly fire upon targets without accuracy or often times immediate recollection of the expanse of time, target, or resource usage during a life threatening event. ..."

Yep, agree.
YET, you use the word, 'people'.
Their are, LOTS, of variants in that.

Working in/with a FLETC, (Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers) environment. Does, NOT, mean, that is the best. Not by a long shot. (Pun Intended) LOL

I estimate, (in my experience), their are 60% of Civilians, (that Carry), CAN outscore, and surpass, in a, adrenaline, shooting event, a, 'trained Police Officer'. 30% are just crap. 10% close. (+/- estimates)

And of course that varies in the physical location of those people.
Gee, where did the best 'shooters' come from, according to Military records.

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .

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Re: Good Guys With Guns
Reply #66 - 11/14/18 at 15:59:56

"Working in/with a FLETC, (Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers) environment"

FLETC are the locations, not the people, we have also used Pendleton, Ft Carson, Ft Lewis, Frontsight NV, and I don't know how many NRA locations, but FLETC provides the best resources and are the most common locations as Simunition can be shipped and stored direct.

Law enforcement typically score higher regarding accurate target acquisition and impact, active military second, civilians age 24-32 score third, retired military with 1-10 years out is usually last in the list among people who regularly interact with firearms. The highest scores by a long shot are Air Marshalls, they train a reliable method consistently designed for close-quarter accurate shots. Even though its designed for close quarters it translates easily to mid-range application, so well in fact the Navy is now looking into it.

Everyone says they can handle it until the rounds start flying their direction, people are shoving them and knocking them to the ground, and lighting is altered during the event.

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Re: Good Guys With Guns
Reply #67 - 11/14/18 at 16:57:59

Take two people. Both Male. Age within 2 years of each other. Ethnicity, any. Upbringing, any.

A. Is skilled in Basket Ball. A, just, ‘Has it’. A, plays in pickup games, twice a week.
B. Knows the game, understands the fundamentals and rules, and plays a pick up game about once every two months.

A. Is recorded throwing 100 free throws, 2 times each week, for 10 times.
B. Is recorded throwing 100 free throws, 2 times each week, for 10 times.

Each has a % of F.T. recorded. (And A is 20-30 % higher)

Now, A, just keeps doing what A is doing, nothing changes.
B. Is installed in a Intensive BB program, and is taught ALL the fundamentals, and practices, practices, practices, practices, etc…

In 6 months, B, will OUT SCORE, A, in FT’s. By 10-20%.

For the last 6 months, B, has had no further training or practice.
A. has just done the Pick up games.

A will OUT SCORE, B, in FT’s. By 10-20%.

So the same with Firearms training.
A person, (Law Enforcement Officer), JUST, coming out of a intensive firearms course, will score high.
Yet without continual training, practice, their skill will quickly degrade to below, the, ‘Civilian’, who, ‘Just Has It’.
And a civilian, who, ‘just has it’, will totally beat the pants off a, ‘trained’, LEO, who favors Donuts over Bullets.
Every Time!

Who do, YOU, want armed and protecting you.
A ‘Donuts’ filled cop, who hasn’t had any firearm training in YEARS.
Or a Skilled, Civilian ?

LET, the skilled, teachers, janitors, principals, be armed.
They are there, the, ‘cops’ are NOT.

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .

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Eegore

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Re: Good Guys With Guns
Reply #68 - 11/14/18 at 19:12:04

"Who do, YOU, want armed and protecting you.
A ‘Donuts’ filled cop, who hasn’t had any firearm training in YEARS.
Or a Skilled, Civilian ?"

A skilled civilian if my only choice is a cop that hadn't had firearm training in years, which in most jurisdictions I am aware of is illegal, annual competency is the standard but some do more. However annual training doesn't mean skill improvement.

There is no way to get firearms exclusively in the hands of civilians that "have it" as its just pure chance. A gun can end up in the hands of someone with bad vision, there's no eye exam to own a gun, or heavily consumes narcotics, there's no drug test to own a gun, or someone who has low competency, there's no skill test to have a gun.

So lets just hope that janitor is competent, visually acute, capable of handling stress and doesn't consume narcotics to alleviate that back pain of his. Maybe he just "has it". Lets just hope all 8 of those guys in a crowded theatre operate above average with firearms and not like the average person.

Also by selecting someone who "has it" is selecting someone who performs Above Average which means statistically there are considerably fewer people operating in the "has it" range of competency because if everyone operated that way they would cease to be Above and just be Average.

Who would YOU rather have protecting you - a civilian that scores high at the range that's never been in a fight, let alone shot at, and is legally blind, or a cop that receives monthly competency drills, has had multiple attempts on his life and is competent in firearm safety?

Anyone can rig the selections by creating hypothetical situations that favor their view of an argument.

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« Last Edit: 11/15/18 at 06:32:23 by Eegore »

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Good Guys With Guns Reply #69 - 11/14/18 at 19:30:59 Me
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Re: Good Guys With Guns
Reply #70 - 11/15/18 at 05:33:34

The bottom line to this is simple: If you're one of those people stuck in a room with a madman pounding on the door to get in, my guess is all of us at that point would want the option of having a gun. If you were in a theater and shots rang out and you had no easy way out, you'd want a gun. Good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns every day.

And I hate it when the I read crap like this only happens in the US. Fist off, that's crap but more importantly, there are a lot of things that only happen in the US, the vast majority of which are good. Crime overall is down.

As bad as these random mass shootings are, they are random and infrequent. Certainly not incidents to make a nationwide legislation from knowing full well in advance the perpetrators will ignore whatever policy you put into place.

I don't trust a government with 100% of my personal safety and my obligation to protect those in my house.

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Re: Good Guys With Guns
Reply #71 - 11/15/18 at 10:48:45

Eegore wrote on 11/14/18 at 15:04:35:

I asked:

If I can install a security camera doorbell and a home alarm I do, its safer, does having a camera and security system make me paranoid?

You stated:

Yes, it does.

So by installing a security camera doorbell I am paranoid. Paranoia is a mental illness according to DSM (DSM-5 301.0 ) and is classifiable because of the following:

"a clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual [which] is associated with present distress ... or disability ... or with a significant increased risk of suffering"

So security camera doorbells = paranoia, or in other words a facilitating example of mental illness.

Or its safer. The line isn't thin, its literally definable based off of decades of categorized criteria. If home security devices are compelling evidence of mental disorder why are they not part of the DSM?

Maybe because safety and preparedness isn't the only measurable criteria for evaluating mental illness, but by your logic it is.

LOL - do I need to hire a lawyer Eegore?

OK, for your sake, and because I respect you, I'll acquiesce.

Perhaps "paranoid" is too strong a word.

I'd say that "misplaced fear" is more accurate.

Let's face it - that misplaced fear is what drives far too many to own guns or other weapons with the express intent to maim or kill. At least, that's been my experience.

Feeling that, at any time, you'll be shot at or victimized in some way is no way to live.

So the argument that someone owns guns for the express purpose of protecting themselves is (to me) silly.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Good Guys With Guns Reply #72 - 11/15/18 at 11:20:43 Even IF it's silly to own weapons for self defense, THOSE ARE NOT THE MURDERERS. You're wanting to control the people who Aren't the problem.
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Re: Good Guys With Guns
Reply #73 - 11/15/18 at 12:04:36

Feeling that, at any time, you'll be shot at or victimized in some way is no way to live.

So the argument that someone owns guns for the express purpose of protecting themselves is (to me) silly.

The greatness of America is my definition of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness does not get to be defined by anyone but myself. I suggest you mind your own business and leave us to our own lives.

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Re: Good Guys With Guns
Reply #74 - 11/15/18 at 12:12:15

Feeling that, at any time, you'll be shot at or victimized in some way is no way to live.

I don't drive down the road stroking my seatbelt, thrilled in my knowledge that I'm ready for the crash that is Surely coming in the next few minutes.
You ATTRIBUTE ideas to the people who would be prepared for a moment that will Probably never happen and use YOUR BULLSHIT ideas as a reasonable way to sneer down at them.

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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.

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