SuzukiSavage.com - If you care to read.......

Eegore Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 8007	Re: If you care to read....... Reply #30 - 07/17/18 at 14:19:19 Isn't the choice to believe in god or be sent to hell? That's going to suck for a lot of kids out there.
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raydawg Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 11551 pacific northwest Gender:	Re: If you care to read....... Reply #31 - 07/17/18 at 14:52:08 Eegore wrote on 07/17/18 at 14:19:19: Isn't the choice to believe in god or be sent to hell? That's going to suck for a lot of kids out there. Ain’t no hell if you don’t believe..... Oh, oh, it’s sorta like kinda pregnant, cool. Funny, how folk get all riled over nothing
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faffi

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Re: If you care to read.......
Reply #32 - 07/17/18 at 15:09:48

There is no thing such a Hell the way we are led to believe - it was invented cirka year 500 IIRC when the Church needed more people to come to the ceremonies and pay for the welcome.

Another issue is with the Gospels. There are a lot more, but again a group of higher priests decided upon the four that would be used based upon what seemed to suit their purpose the best. But even those 4 from the New Testament differ, and are even contradicting, in many details.

Finally, I am pretty sure the Bible contain several Gods, not one. He/She varies between harsh and unforgiving, and loving and caring. And regardless, the stories are written by humans and not really trustworthy.

Trivia: Did you know that the year Jesus was crucified, Pontius alone sentenced 30 other to be crucified that were claiming to be Messiah. They were rather common for the period.

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MnSpring

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Re: If you care to read.......
Reply #33 - 07/17/18 at 16:17:26

Eegore wrote on 07/17/18 at 14:19:19:

"Isn't the choice to believe in god or be sent to hell?"

Well that would depend on which, belief, one has.
A belief in a religion, (and which one), or a belief in no religion.

"That's going to suck for a lot of kids out there"

I think, that if they are told, (as in one religion), if they don’t believe that one religion,
they will be KILLED.

That's going to suck for a lot of kids out there, fer sure !

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .

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Serowbot YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline OK.... so what's the speed of dark? Posts: 28375 Tucson Az Gender:	Re: If you care to read....... Reply #34 - 07/17/18 at 16:28:48 Non-belief is not a belief... Atheism is not a belief,.. it is a label given by theist's to non-believers...... What do you label yourself for not believing in Santa Claus?...
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MnSpring

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Re: If you care to read.......
Reply #35 - 07/17/18 at 17:13:26

Serowbot wrote on 07/17/18 at 16:28:48:

Non-belief is not a belief... Atheism is not a belief,.. it is a label given by theist's to non-believers......

Yea it is, It is a ABSOLUTE Belief, in, NOT believing !
‘Agonistic’, is ‘closer’, to, ’not’, a believe in believing. If a, ‘Agonistic’, said nothing, pro/con, about any ’religion/deity’,
Then, and ONLY then, would that, ‘Agonistic, be, ‘close’, to not believing, in believing.’

When a, ‘Atheist’, constantly states his/her, Belief, is NOT, Believing.
It is a Absolute, Belief, in, Not Believing.

"...What do you label yourself for not believing in Santa Claus?..."

Yep, Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy, Obama, etc.
Are All things, that when a person is little, they believe in.
Some people grow up faster than others, yet they let the younger, more naive ones, believe.
(Did you ever read, “Yes Virginia their is a Santa Claus” ?)

So, the ones that grow up, let the ones who have not grown up,
believe in, Santa, Tooth Fairy, and Obama.

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .

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raydawg

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Re: If you care to read.......
Reply #36 - 07/17/18 at 17:55:26

Serowbot wrote on 07/17/18 at 16:28:48:

Non-belief is not a belief...

Atheism is not a belief,.. it is a label given by theist's to non-believers......

What do you label yourself for not believing in Santa Claus?... Undecided

Your reasoning is self canceling....

So, if you think like a man, because you are a man, your anti woman Roll Eyes

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Eegore Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 8007	Re: If you care to read....... Reply #37 - 07/17/18 at 19:27:44 "Isn't the choice to believe in god or be sent to hell?" To clarify: Isn't the choice of Christianity to believe in go or be sent to hell?
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MShipley

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Re: If you care to read.......
Reply #38 - 07/18/18 at 06:45:22

There is no thing such a Hell the way we are led to believe - it was invented cirka year 500 IIRC when the Church needed more people to come to the ceremonies and pay for the welcome.

Another issue is with the Gospels. There are a lot more, but again a group of higher priests decided upon the four that would be used based upon what seemed to suit their purpose the best. But even those 4 from the New Testament differ, and are even contradicting, in many details.

Finally, I am pretty sure the Bible contain several Gods, not one. He/She varies between harsh and unforgiving, and loving and caring. And regardless, the stories are written by humans and not really trustworthy.

Trivia: Did you know that the year Jesus was crucified, Pontius alone sentenced 30 other to be crucified that were claiming to be Messiah. They were rather common for the period.

faffi, have you ever read a Bible?

While the word HELL is a translated word the concept of Hell runs through out the Bible. There is a consistent theme that at death there will be judgement and separation. Do we know exactly what that is? no!

The Gospels. Yes I know there are numerous conspiracy theories. Just look to Hollywood. The truth is that the 4 Gospels of the Bible are the only 4 from the first century. All the others were written much later. In order to protect the authenticity one of the requirements was that the only accepted Gospels were those written within the life span of the actual witnesses of Christ. Anyone can write a book and call it a Gospel, that does not make its content true.

Are there variances? Of course they are. If I gave Huck Finn to 4 people. asked them to read it and then give me the facts about it do you thing those reports will all be the same? If they were all identical people would just claim they were plagiarized. There some variances. Would you not expect that from such an old text? In fact they have all been documented and categorized. 75% are simply spelling and such. for instance if you were British and wrote the word colour and if you were from America you would write color. We all know what they both mean. There are very few, actually less than 1% that have any meaningful impact and all those that study the Bible are aware of them.

More than one God? This is another common insincere objection. This is typically thrown out by those that do not understand theology as it is applied to the Christian faith.

As far as your trivia question is concerned. I think that is totally false. I have never heard of such a thing and I doubt seriously that there is any ancient documentation to back that up.

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MShipley

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Re: If you care to read.......
Reply #39 - 07/18/18 at 07:00:12

Serowbot wrote on 07/17/18 at 16:28:48:

Non-belief is not a belief...

Atheism is not a belief,.. it is a label given by theist's to non-believers......

What do you label yourself for not believing in Santa Claus?... Undecided

Sorry but this just isn't true. Everyone "believes" something. The question is what. It is absolutely untrue that any human being operates purely on empirical evidence and fact.

In the scientific world there are currently two camps. Those that believe in a single universe and those that believe in a multi universe. There is NO empirical evidence for either yet they argue about this and debate their positions all the time.....it is because they Believe.

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Eegore

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Re: If you care to read.......
Reply #40 - 07/18/18 at 07:24:55

"It is absolutely untrue that any human being operates purely on empirical evidence and fact."

I don't feel this is entirely true. Some people don't care, as in I don't care how many universes there are. I feel it is fact that there is a universe that we exist within, and that there may be others.

I think it's possible to not have an opinion, or a belief in something. For instance I have no opinion on the multi-verse concept since I have no evidence of it. So for me I understand religion exists, so I believe in the concept of religion however I don't have evidence that any of the descriptions contained within them is real. I don't hold an opinion about the existence of any god since there is no way to prove it.

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MShipley

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Re: If you care to read.......
Reply #41 - 07/18/18 at 07:36:42

Eegore wrote on 07/18/18 at 07:24:55:

"It is absolutely untrue that any human being operates purely on empirical evidence and fact."

I don't feel this is entirely true. Some people don't care, as in I don't care how many universes there are. I feel it is fact that there is a universe that we exist within, and that there may be others.

I think it's possible to not have an opinion, or a belief in something. For instance I have no opinion on the multi-verse concept since I have no evidence of it. So for me I understand religion exists, so I believe in the concept of religion however I don't have evidence that any of the descriptions contained within them is real. I don't hold an opinion about the existence of any god since there is no way to prove it.

Do you believe it is wrong to murder innocent people or is that something you also just have no opinion on? Let me rephrase that question. Do you believe that it is wrong for someone to murder your family?

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faffi

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Re: If you care to read.......
Reply #42 - 07/18/18 at 13:43:45

About the trivia; it was on H2, so it must be true Grin

Anyway, trying to google for confirmation (or not, as in my case, so it seems like I was had by the History channel) I found this (that I again cannot verify, but it was an interesting read nonetheless)

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/730997/Jesus-Christ-crucifixion...

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MShipley

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Re: If you care to read.......
Reply #43 - 07/18/18 at 13:58:26

faffi wrote on 07/18/18 at 13:43:45:

About the trivia; it was on H2, so it must be true Grin

Anyway, trying to google for confirmation (or not, as in my case, so it seems like I was had by the History channel) I found this (that I again cannot verify, but it was an interesting read nonetheless)

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/730997/Jesus-Christ-crucifixion...

I agree that the Hollywood version of the crucifixion is just that. A Hollywood version. When the Romans crucified someone it was not this massive cross in which you had to look up to see the person. The cross was just high enough to get people off the ground. part of the process was for onlookers to be able to look you in the eye, spit at you, hit you, yell at you whatever they want. However There is much historical evidence and writing other than the Bible that confirm that Jesus was crucified and died on the cross.

Some religions like the Muslim faith believe what they call the Swoon theory. That is Jesus did not die. he either pretended to die or someone else died in his place. For anyone that understands this subject it simple does not stand up.

Jesus was crucified. He did die on that cross. he was buried. Of course the entire Christian faith falls on what happened next which is the resurrection. That is an entirely different subject in which you should investigate both sides. I am sure you will find those that object.

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Eegore

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Re: If you care to read.......
Reply #44 - 07/18/18 at 14:19:56

"Do you believe it is wrong to murder innocent people or is that something you also just have no opinion on? Let me rephrase that question. Do you believe that it is wrong for someone to murder your family?"

In most cases yes, but there are some outlying factors such as stopping major widespread disease, or if they sign up for military service.

How does assessing wrong behavior and assessing a universe model or religion model come together? The question seems off topic.

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