SuzukiSavage.com - Cam chain tensioner revisited

norm92de

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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #165 - 05/31/16 at 12:59:31

Here we are beating our heads against the wall. While Batman is laughing at our antics. Personally I'm rooting for him. Under those circumstances the cam chain will be under constant tension. I just feel that the whole world can't be wrong so I don't have the internal fortitude to emulate him.

The spring does indeed provide the tension. The pawl ONLY prevents the plunger from moving back. It is as Dave said EVERY engine uses more or less the same system. We'll see who laughs last. I want it to be Batman.

When I get around to it I will remove the pawl but Will put a solid rod inside the spring as some kind of insurance.

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batman

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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #166 - 05/31/16 at 13:02:29

that "s correct Garry , I did it at 19000mi when I extended my tensioner, 2yrs ago 6500mi so far no problems. that's how all this talk about the tensioner got started (I created a monster!)If thy eye offends thee pluck it out! The pawl spring offended me so I plucked it out!!It's the K.I.S.S. system(keep it simple stupid).

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« Last Edit: 06/02/16 at 09:00:16 by batman »

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Armen Serious Thumper Offline Half-Witted Wrench-Jockey from Jersey Posts: 1431	Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited Reply #167 - 05/31/16 at 13:33:46 Norm92DE, Kinda what I proposed about a million entries ago when I started this thread... -Armen
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norm92de

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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #168 - 05/31/16 at 13:45:02

Armen,
I can't really see that it is a great risk.

Nobody has calculated the tension on the chain when the cylinder has expanded to what I believe is about .025" but it must be considerable. The chain has nowhere to go, poor thing. It is pretty brutal to anything connected with the cam system.

If we do it, everything will be normal until the chain wears a bit anyway.
Batman is paving the way for us. Yeah!

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Garry

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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #169 - 05/31/16 at 16:56:07

verslagen1 wrote on 05/31/16 at 08:53:33:

Not a bad idea, garry, but orientation would be an issue.
The rounded end of the housing will allow it to turn.

The rounded end of the tensioner could be flatted off a bit and a hole drilled and tapped to accept a suitably sized metal dowel. The metal dowel is screwed into tensioner and goes all the way through the spring and exits through a hole in the bracket. The dowel would locate the spring and bracket and slide up and down through
the hole in the bracket as the spring changes length.

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« Last Edit: 05/31/16 at 20:53:31 by Garry »

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Garry

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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #170 - 06/02/16 at 05:20:36

norm92de wrote on 05/31/16 at 13:45:02:

Armen,
I can't really see that it is a great risk.

Nobody has calculated the tension on the chain when the cylinder has expanded to what I believe is about .025" but it must be considerable. The chain has nowhere to go, poor thing. It is pretty brutal to anything connected with the cam system.

Perhaps you have cracked the code! 6,500 miles without the pawl sounds pretty definitive. Be interesting to see what your adjuster looks like at rest - my guess is you are getting minimal wear on the chain.

If we do it, everything will be normal until the chain wears a bit anyway.
Batman is paving the way for us. Yeah!

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Garry

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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #171 - 06/02/16 at 06:15:43

verslagen1 wrote on 05/27/16 at 08:19:03:

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 05/25/16 at 15:44:46:

they took the time to make things last a bit longer.. Its all about the $$$...

If we knew the specs on the old spring and new spring, we would have a clue.

verslagen1 wrote on 09/22/07 at 18:51:41:

New vs. old adjuster report.

No dif between new and old plunger or housing.

Mold ID on old is "1" and "4" on the new. This may be cavity number but on old ones I've only seen 1's and 2's.
All the new one's I think have been 4's

big dif in main spring.
old Ø .384, wire Ø .040, 2.80 length
new Ø .330, wire Ø .038, 2.66 length

about the same number of coils.

I should be able to slot the mounting hole of the housing and cross drill the slot for the relief spring. I found a spring that should work and there's plenty of room for it.

Just wondering? The spring in the slotted tensioner housing should be much stronger than the spring in the plunger? I am thinking that the new spring should be strong enough to,prevent any movement of the tensioner unit untill temperature changes start to impose strain on the chain. If the spring was too weak it could allow the chain to oscillate and might even allow the plunger to pop out another tooth. Am I thinking in the right direction?

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Dave

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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #172 - 06/02/16 at 06:25:03

Gary:

The "new additional" spring does need to be stronger than the one in the plunger - but how much stronger is something yet to be determined. It could well be that the plunger spring could also be a bit weaker than the current one - I currently have one that is about half as strong and it is working just fine (MMRanch also has a very weak spring in his plunger).

The plunger spring needs to only be strong enough to set an initial tension on the chain when the engine is cold and not operating......the new "additional"spring does need to be strong enough to limit excessive "oscillation" of the chain when the engine is running.

I do believe the idea of cutting a window in the side of a clutch cover is a good idea for the "prototype" period....it would be nice to see what it going on when the engine is running. It is my belief that the most erratic behavior of the chains will be at startup/shutdown, and a bit less at idle, and as speed increases the load will be less erratic - however the chain may want to create a larger arc as is moves off the bottom of the crank pulley and approaches the backside chain guide.

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Garry

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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #173 - 06/02/16 at 06:57:01

Dave wrote on 06/02/16 at 06:25:03:

Gary:

The "new additional" spring does need to be stronger than the one in the plunger - but how much stronger is something yet to be determined. It could well be that the plunger spring could also be a bit weaker than the current one - I currently have one that is about half as strong and it is working just fine (MMRanch also has a very weak spring in his plunger).

The plunger spring needs to only be strong enough to set an initial tension on the chain when the engine is cold and not operating......the new "additional"spring does need to be strong enough to limit excessive "oscillation" of the chain when the engine is running.

I do believe the idea of cutting a window in the side of a clutch cover is a good idea for the "prototype" period....it would be nice to see what it going on when the engine is running. It is my belief that the most erratic behavior of the chains will be at startup/shutdown, and a bit less at idle, and as speed increases the load will be less erratic - however the chain may want to create a larger arc as is moves off the bottom of the crank pulley and approaches the backside chain guide.

It would be ideal to have a test bench engine with a viewing window that these tests could be carried out on. I agree with your belief that the most erratic behaviour will be at start up and shutdown. But I also think that at sustained midrange revs and above the chain will tend to bow out if the guides and adjuster allow. The trick is to balance the additional spring so that it can allow for temperature variations without interfering with the normal operation of the tensioner and the guides. Every idea that appears on this forum is a step towards an answer. The conversation must continue. This will eventually be resolved! Wink

I also totally agree with your take on the plunger spring. As long as it is able to still pop the plunger out at the end of its travel it is up to doing it s job. The standard spring is well above this requirement. The pawl actually does all the hard work!

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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #174 - 06/02/16 at 07:33:02

Gary:

I believe the best "bench"engine....is one mounted in the bike. One that you can take out and ride down the highway, and get fully warmed up. It would be a lot of work to set up an engine to run when it is not mounted in a bike.

I do wonder how much you will really be able to see through a window in the case......the oil spray may obscure a good view of the cam chain and tensioner when the engine is running - however when you turn the engine off the oil should flow off the window pretty quickly and give you a view of where the tensioner is against the new spring setup.

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norm92de Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1180 El Paso TX Gender:	Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited Reply #175 - 06/02/16 at 08:54:19 One thing that does come to mind. If the mounting hole is slotted the adjuster body will have to be milled a bit to accommodate a washer to prevent the circlip from being compromised.
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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28767 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited Reply #176 - 06/02/16 at 09:03:11 forces on the clip are minimal. the adjuster will be held in by the cover if it moves to much. I've seen marks on the inside of the cover that come from the assembly.
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norm92de Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1180 El Paso TX Gender:	Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited Reply #177 - 06/02/16 at 14:34:10 Versy, I think the slotted idea will work. The proper spring will be critical. It ought to take most of the tension off the chain. Who knows, you may put yourself out of business. Visualize a cam chain life of 30k before the mod is needed.
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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28767 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited Reply #178 - 06/02/16 at 14:58:25 norm92de wrote on 06/02/16 at 14:34:10: Who knows, you may put yourself out of business. Visualize a cam chain life of 30k before the mod is needed. But who's gonna put the spring in? since this design is in every freakin' bike, I wonder how long before this mod shows up in other models?
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norm92de Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1180 El Paso TX Gender:	Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited Reply #179 - 06/02/16 at 15:02:52 Stand by!
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