SuzukiSavage.com - Cam chain tensioner revisited

verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28767 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited Reply #120 - 05/24/16 at 22:37:28 no, you got it backwards. It prevents over-tension, which causes excessive wear on the chain. The stock spring keeps the tension on the chain.
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Serowbot

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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #121 - 05/25/16 at 00:06:18

A... the spring doesn't hold the chain,.. it only pushes the extender.
The extender is a one way ratchet... it only tightens and never backs up...
Spring pressure alone cannot do this...

...and 2... the stock spring is stronger than finger pressure, but I can easily compress it with my thumb...
My thumb,.. is nowhere near strong enough to stretch a steel chain... therefore, if the slack existed to allow the spring to push adjuster, that slack existed, and won't ever go away...
That makes this part of the system just fine...

...if the difference between a cold chain and a hot chain made that much difference... the stock adjuster would fall out after 15 starts...
1 notch per start,.. one stretch per ride...
Even only cold days and hard rides,.. the bike wouldn't last a year...

I believe we are only talking about 6 to 10 notches over the life of a chain...
I don't see heat expansion... I see gradual wear...

JMHO... and I'm tired.. and I admit,.. I haven't read the entire thread...
That said,... thanks Versy,, for my modded adjuster.
It allows me sleep at night...

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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #122 - 05/25/16 at 01:12:06

Serowbot wrote on 05/25/16 at 00:06:18:

...and 2... the stock spring is stronger than finger pressure, but I can easily compress it with my thumb...
My thumb,.. is nowhere near strong enough to stretch a steel chain... therefore, if the slack existed to allow the spring to push adjuster, that slack existed, and won't ever go away...
That makes this part of the system just fine...

LOGIC

that seems logical to me.. makes all this other crap seem irrelivant
Cool

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited Reply #123 - 05/25/16 at 05:28:39 Well, however logical you believe that to be Observed Reality has demonstrated that the tensioner is causing premature chain wear. Nobody has said the tensioner spring is damaging the chain. An engineer has seen my proposal and called it reasonable, but you guys don't Need an answer, because there is no problem. Wow,,
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Dave

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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #124 - 05/25/16 at 07:41:07

The spring in the tensioner is not overloading the chain. The part that is allowing too much tension in the chain is the pawl.....which has no ability to relax as the engine warms up.

Most of the tensioners in cars are run by oil pressure, and they have a very small supply line. The tensioner can gradually adjust to the movements of the parts as things warm up - but if a sudden load is applied - the oil in the tensioner cannot be shoved out the supply line fast - so the tensioner can resist rapid movement.

Our Savage does not have the ability to relax the tension on the cam chain as things warm up, and unfortunately the tensioner is establishing the chain tension when the engine is cold.

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norm92de Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1180 El Paso TX Gender:	Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited Reply #125 - 05/25/16 at 09:20:39 Perfect analysis Dave. Thanks for measuring the ratchet spacing. I figured it must be close to 1mm. According to Versy about 1.5mm of flexibility is needed to protect the chain. How we do that is something we need to figure out. :'(
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #126 - 05/25/16 at 12:57:58

The only thing I cam come up with is to curve the rear guide.

Dave thinks it would be risky because of separation of the plastic. I think it would be worth a try. 1.5mm (.060")is not much. If the guide could be bent, shall we say 6 to 10mm at the centre, that would give the chain some breathing room.
The biggest problem is getting the thing out of the engine.

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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #127 - 05/25/16 at 13:51:49

norm92de wrote on 05/25/16 at 12:57:58:

The only thing I cam come up with is to curve the rear guide.

Dave thinks it would be risky because of separation of the plastic.

I don't remember saying that - but I don't think an additional curve will help anything, and it will likely cause the guide to wear faster. We did have one member put a big curve in the guide before the Versy cam chain extension idea was born - but I don't believe he stayed around long enough to report on the survival of his curvy guide.

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28767 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited Reply #128 - 05/25/16 at 14:10:25 I said that... and the guy that it happened to did not bend his guide. The plastic came off and clogged up his oil pump. So be warned. remember I told you so. I will snicker.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #129 - 05/25/16 at 14:16:05

norm ,the guide will come out if you take off the top cam housing off like you do for the plug leak ,then remove the bolt the that is in the fins on the right side of the head ,undo the tensioner ,push from the bottom and it should slide out the top.only the front guide requires you to remove the head.The rear guide hangs from the bolt.I think if I where doing this I might try bending it nearer to the ends ,if you bend it in the middle it might change the profile and speed wear in a place you cant see.With ends you've only lost a little contact area where the chain enters and leaves the guide.

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verslagen1

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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #130 - 05/25/16 at 14:27:04

batman wrote on 05/25/16 at 14:16:05:

norm ,the guide will come out if you take off the top cam housing off like you do for the plug leak ,then remove the bolt the that is in the fins on the right side of the head ,undo the tensioner ,push from the bottom and it should slide out the top.only the front guide requires you to remove the head.The rear guide hangs from the bolt.

You'll need to remove the cam to do that.
But it will come out the bottom.
don't remember if I took out the chain or not.
Not easy either way, but getting the arm on the bottom thru the top will be near impossible.

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batman Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 3806 osceola new york Gender:	Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited Reply #131 - 05/25/16 at 14:47:39 verslagen sorry never been there I 'm betting your right.
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norm92de Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1180 El Paso TX Gender:	Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited Reply #132 - 05/25/16 at 14:55:23 Versy, You rat, I hate it when you say that. ( clogged oil pump)
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #133 - 05/25/16 at 14:58:45

Dave wrote on 05/25/16 at 07:41:07:

The spring in the tensioner is not overloading the chain. The part that is allowing too much tension in the chain is the pawl.....which has no ability to relax as the engine warms up.

Most of the tensioners in cars are run by oil pressure, and they have a very small supply line. The tensioner can gradually adjust to the movements of the parts as things warm up - but if a sudden load is applied - the oil in the tensioner cannot be shoved out the supply line fast - so the tensioner can resist rapid movement.

Our Savage does not have the ability to relax the tension on the cam chain as things warm up, and unfortunately the tensioner is establishing the chain tension when the engine is cold.

AHH yeah I see the problem now. Suzuki really doesn't give a crappity smack do they. Angry

Wish they took the time to make things last a bit longer.. Its all about the $$$...

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited Reply #134 - 05/25/16 at 15:44:46 they took the time to make things last a bit longer.. Its all about the $$$... If we knew the specs on the old spring and new spring, we would have a clue.
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