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Cam chain tensioner revisited (Read 2423 times)
Armen
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #90 - 05/23/16 at 18:47:28
 
Someone said:
"the chain is longer on 1 side."
?
So what? Bottom line is that the distance between centers of the sprockets is increasing, and the chain is being asked to become longer by a factor of twice the cylinder expansion.
Time to head to the dungeon and look for an aluminum cylinder with a cast iron liner and throw it in the oven. Most of the stuff down there is Nikasil lined.
FWIW, Harley credited a lot of the base gasket leaks on the early Evo motors on fast warm-ups. The knuckle-draggers like to light up their bikes and pull away at full chat. High revs mean high oil pressure. Cold cylinders mean not as much clamping force, so the base gaskets were vulnerable to leaking.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #91 - 05/23/16 at 21:30:32
 
crank center to base of cylinder = 5"
head to cam center 3.25"
give or take a mile.
I'm going to assume that the cylinder vs the chain = 0 net growth.
thermal growth aluminum vs. steel  = 12 E-6

case growth for 180°F = .007"
Head growth for 360°F = .011"

when hot, aluminum will grow .018" more than steel.

If you remember your high school physics when calculating the load on a picture hanger wire...
opposite/adjacent = tangent of the angle.
when new we gotta 1" deflection in the chain
let's assume the curve is in the middle...
1/(13.5/2)=.148 or 8.43°

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Armen
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #92 - 05/24/16 at 02:52:56
 
Not sure why any of the angle stuff means anything. If your numbers are right, the expansion is around .018". I had guessed .020". Pretty bloody close.
Moving the two points away from each other .020" means the chain is being pulled .036" (by your numbers).
Assuming the pawl had taken all the slack out of the chain when it was cold, the thermal expansion means that the aluminum bits move further away from each other, stretching the chain.
Think of a rear wheel. If you move it back 1/2" the chain slack will become 1" less.
I don't think there is a whole lot of physics involved here.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #93 - 05/24/16 at 07:04:02
 
If the cam chain is like every chain I've met it will have loose spots and tight spots.

That being said, if we measure the tensioner extension at the loosest point, remove the pawl and insert a steel rod that allows,  shall we say, .040" more slack than that measurement. I believe the cam chain will think it is "on vacation". Sorry for the lousy metaphor.

When I go into the clutch area this is the plan. Then we will see what happens, if anything. Of course the .040" is arbitrary. What is the pitch of the ratchet on the plunger?  Undecided
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #94 - 05/24/16 at 07:59:58
 
norm92de wrote on 05/24/16 at 07:04:02:
What is the pitch of the ratchet on the plunger?  Undecided


I can measure that tonight and let you know.

When you are making your pin.....I would most likely measure what/where the plunger is now, and then make a rod at that measurement.....or a plunger notch less.  The chain will adjust to the new system in very short order - if you start with the chain too loose right way, you may need to go in and make an adjustment before long.

I tried my "Hole Center Finders" in the spring last night....and the 15/64" fit inside the spring (1/4" was too big), and I don't know how easy it will be to find a steel/brass/aluminum rod in that diameter at your local hardware store.  That is also 5.95mm.....so maybe a 6mm rod would fit.  
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #95 - 05/24/16 at 09:13:35
 
I had check my numbers cause it's kinda hard to believe.
That .018" expansion equates to .060" contraction of the plunger.
.009/.148=.061
and there is your smoking gun.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #96 - 05/24/16 at 09:26:05
 
So, if the entire tensioner was mounted in a manner that allowed It to be pressed back when the chain pulls tight and That spring was stronger than the internal spring, then the tensioner couldn't get a new tooth so often, yet would be there, controlling the slack. That would require a Short throw,it can't be an unrestrained spring.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #97 - 05/24/16 at 09:36:44
 
Yep... what he said.   Huh
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #98 - 05/24/16 at 11:45:13
 
So, here's the 1st thought for an over tension device...


2 plates with a spring in between.
The top plate mounts the adjuster.
The bottom is the anchor.
spring should be 2 to 3 times as stiff as the adjuster spring.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #99 - 05/24/16 at 12:33:51
 
That's pretty elegant stuff. I like it.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #100 - 05/24/16 at 12:42:52
 
versy,
Have you made one of these devices? It looks like you have.

Where is the spring?
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #101 - 05/24/16 at 12:48:05
 
norm92de wrote on 05/24/16 at 12:42:52:
versy,
Have you made one of these devices? It looks like you have.

Where is the spring?


The red thing is the spring.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #102 - 05/24/16 at 12:54:44
 
I can see what you are saying but can't visualize the details.

It will relieve the tremendous pressure generated by an expanding engine for sure.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #103 - 05/24/16 at 13:21:30
 
norm92de wrote on 05/24/16 at 12:42:52:
versy,
Have you made one of these devices? It looks like you have.

Where is the spring?


I took liberties with the german version of the adjuster mod.

I had tried an extension on the back end and found that the case crimped down on the adjuster housing. So I'm not sure that the german adjuster mod gets full travel.

Maybe when I set this up I design it with 9mm (or so) forward so a brand new chain will fully compress the plunger.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #104 - 05/24/16 at 13:39:53
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 05/24/16 at 09:26:05:
So, if the entire tensioner was mounted in a manner that allowed It to be pressed back when the chain pulls tight and That spring was stronger than the internal spring, then the tensioner couldn't get a new tooth so often, yet would be there, controlling the slack. That would require a Short throw,it can't be an unrestrained spring.

That there is the stuff of inspiration, now the perspiration begins.
VerSlavyJog?
JogVerSlavy?
Smiley Hey wait a minute...
VerJavy

Yep, the mother of invention is preggy, and I'm excited.
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