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boosting the thumper (Read 5206 times)
savagebob
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Re: Turbocharging the thumper
Reply #15 - 06/26/13 at 14:46:21
 
I agree that many question the point, the reliability and the hassle. However just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it's not going to be fun trying it out.

I recall when I used to play around with Ford 2L OHC engines in capris and escorts, I had similar responses "why bother, the engine won't handle it, it won't last, too complicated etc' Where as the results spoke for themselves. http://www.retrotech.co.nz/Projects/turbo-pinto.php

Since then I've been a strong advocate for forced induction. By putting your efforts into forcing air into the engine seems much easier way of enhancing performance.

That said, I'm new to bikes and new to the savage. I just thought it would be fun. My original idea was actually a supercharger driven off a pulley machined onto the stator drive, there is a convent hole already in the side cover  Cheesy

Pity that it needs a plenum though.. with such little room, also with a draw-through carb setup I'd be concerned having a volume of fuel/air mix sitting under my butt. Fuel pooling issues in the plenum would also be an issue.

JT
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Dave
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Re: Turbocharging the thumper
Reply #16 - 06/26/13 at 14:49:36
 
paulmarshall wrote on 06/26/13 at 14:36:01:
Yes i am using cars as a example instead of bikes but the principle is the same.


The small cars that are built for turbos are water cooled, and were built to be turbocharged by thefactory.  They have clutches, transmissions and radiators that were designed for the horsepower and heat that the engine was going to make.  The fuel system and ignition advance system was designed to work with the extra boost.  The factory already did all the testing and design work......it was not an add-on system.....it was an engineered package.

My wife had a VW Jetta Turbo Diesel and we got 264,000 miles on it and it never missed a beat.  It had an intercooler, a computer to control the injectors.  It was desgned to work together as a system.

I'm not saying that it can't be done.  I am saying that it will not be easy, and that the results may not be rewarding for the amount of time and money invested.  If you want a cool look.....it will certainly have it......If you want more horsepower you can obtain it easier with a few engine changes.
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savagebob
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Re: Turbocharging the thumper
Reply #17 - 06/26/13 at 15:22:43
 
Dave the old 2L Ford OHC was certainly not built to be turbocharged but it's been done it many times with great results, take a look
http://www.retrotech.co.nz/Projects/nismocapri.php

we've supercharged them, turbocharged em, with blow through carbs, draw through carbs, custom made efi intakes, mostly on factory internals on 30 year old engines. At the time people told us the same thing, 'cant turbo something which isn't made for it, won't last, will blow up, you'll forever have problems etc etc.'

you'd be surprised what a standard engine can do with a little bit of boost, as long as you don't get silly with the psi they can be very reliable when compared to n/a equivalents which rely on high-compression and revs which puts more strain on a motor than forced induction.
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paulmarshall
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Re: Turbocharging the thumper
Reply #18 - 06/26/13 at 15:27:19
 
Dave wrote on 06/26/13 at 14:49:36:
paulmarshall wrote on 06/26/13 at 14:36:01:
Yes i am using cars as a example instead of bikes but the principle is the same.


The small cars that are built for turbos are water cooled, and were built to be turbocharged by thefactory.  They have clutches, transmissions and radiators that were designed for the horsepower and heat that the engine was going to make.  The fuel system and ignition advance system was designed to work with the extra boost.  The factory already did all the testing and design work......it was not an add-on system.....it was an engineered package.

My wife had a VW Jetta Turbo Diesel and we got 264,000 miles on it and it never missed a beat.  It had an intercooler, a computer to control the injectors.  It was desgned to work together as a system.

I'm not saying that it can't be done.  I am saying that it will not be easy, and that the results may not be rewarding for the amount of time and money invested.  If you want a cool look.....it will certainly have it......If you want more horsepower you can obtain it easier with a few engine changes.

Good point.
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Re: Turbocharging the thumper
Reply #19 - 06/26/13 at 15:54:14
 
paulmarshall wrote on 06/26/13 at 14:36:01:
Yes i am using cars as a example instead of bikes but the principle is the same.



The principles are sort of the same.  The huge difference is one cylinder vs many.
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paulmarshall
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Re: Turbocharging the thumper
Reply #20 - 06/26/13 at 16:59:14
 
Here is a pic of what looks like a turbo on a Savage in our very own photo gallery.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/gallery/pictures.pl?start=205
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Re: Turbocharging the thumper
Reply #21 - 06/26/13 at 19:09:00
 
yeah I saw that, couldn't work out why the dump-pipe does back under the bike, are there any more shots of that at other angles?

But yeah that is pretty much how I would see my setup looking with the turbo mounted directly behind the intake.
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paulmarshall
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Re: Turbocharging the thumper
Reply #22 - 06/26/13 at 19:21:47
 
Go for it. Cheesy
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Re: Turbocharging the thumper
Reply #23 - 06/26/13 at 19:31:41
 
Looks like it bolts onto something underneath.
SavageRob might be a good place to start asking since he posted the photos.
He might remember where it can from.
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Re: Turbocharging the thumper
Reply #24 - 06/26/13 at 19:51:15
 
I think I'd be more inclined to take the safer, pre engineered route.  Laughing gas!  Grin  Grin  Grin  Grin  Grin  Grin

http://www.holley.com/03001NOS.asp

Smiley Smiley Smiley
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Re: forced induction on the thumper
Reply #25 - 06/27/13 at 12:45:31
 
ok so more research has confirmed that the pulsation from the single will upset a turbo quite a bit. Although i did find a vid of someone with a turbo single which is making boost
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwfe4LhJDqY

not installed in a bike yet though so the actual rideability hasn't been confirmed.

What about machining an extension and pulley off crank and running it out the stator cover for a small supercharger?  Cheesy
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Re: Turbocharging the thumper
Reply #26 - 06/27/13 at 13:27:29
 
The plenum isn't a new idea. The existing airbox on the stock S40 is also a plenum. It isn't just a funny-shaped filter holder.
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Re: Turbocharging the thumper
Reply #27 - 06/27/13 at 17:38:04
 
Goldhammer Nortorious (http://thekneeslider.com/notorious-by-roger-goldammer/ and http://www.goldammercycle.com/collection/nortorious) used Rotrex supercharger (http://www.rotrex.com/Home/Technology/Product_Concept) on a single cylinder engine. Seems like a better option for a single than turbo.
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Re: Turbocharging the thumper
Reply #28 - 06/27/13 at 19:05:05
 
And while the Notorious appears to lack a plenum, here's an exerpt from a write up in Motorcycle Mojo "In order to have enough of an air plenum, he chose to have the intake on the front of the engine and still mount his supercharger on the rear. That means fitting the rear cylinder head on the massive front cylinder and running his ductwork over the engine and under the fuel tank" - evidence that an adequate volume of ducting can serve as your plenum.

Other examples of blown singles include an Enfield and a Jawa as found in the links below. You'll note that the Enfield had to be heavily modified to accommodate the stresses imposed by the addition of the blower, while the Jawa - well................ they're just built to take that kind of abuse.

http://myroyalenfields.blogspot.com/2012/09/supercharged-royal-enfield.html

http://www.pipeburn.com/home/2011/3/5/jl-mekaniikka-supercharged-nitrous-jawa...

That said, blowing a Savage would be no small task. And as suggested, plan on plenty of time in the shop. Additionally, plan on a blow off valve and/or possibly burst panels. A backfire is not a pretty thing without them. Kind of like trying to sneeze with your mouth and nostrils clamped shut. And with a plenum positioned just below the family jewels, the absence of a blow off or sneeze panel can bring new meaning to the term "planned parenthood".
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mpescatori
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Re: Turbocharging the thumper
Reply #29 - 06/28/13 at 01:35:59
 
A few considerations.

If your plan to turbo/supercharge the Savage is "for the heck of it", do it and tell us about it.

BUT

If your plan to turbo/supercharge the Savage is to gain an extra 50-60% extra power, then you're barking up the wrong tree.

A few engineering considerations:

1. The Savage is a small valve, big bore, air cooled single with well-known valve lubrication issues;
charging the engine would mean extra stress on the crank journals and bearings; have you planned to re-engineer them or do you plan to bend/break the con rod?

2. The Savage is a big single, and charging the engine means the power down stroke would have twice, possibly three times the energy as originally designed...
yet the crank counterbalance weights are engineered for the stock 32hp at 6500rpm... have you considered the vibrations exerted on the piston pin when the piston goes yahoo! at WOT 10-15psi ?

3. The Savage is a 650cc big single engineered to deliver a mere 32 hp; on the other hand, Suzuki's other "big single" family is the DR range (enduros)
which are available in 600-650-750-800 cc variants which deliver 37-42-52-55 hp respectively.

http://imageshack.us/f/29/dr750scat4.jpg/

In other words, you'll achieve more with less work if you shoehorn a DR750/800 engine in the LS650's frame.

My three cents' worth... (there's inflation, exchange commission and overseas allowance  Cheesy)

PS : I forgot... did you consider if the clutch is capable of handling the increased torque ? Primary gears in the transmission ?  Undecided
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