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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> boosting the thumper /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1372223359 Message started by savagebob on 06/25/13 at 22:09:19 |
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Title: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 06/25/13 at 22:09:19 Thought I'd start a thread on this topic and there doesn't seem to be a dedicated thread anywhere I could find. My plan is to stick a small VZ21 turbo running a low-boost (5psi) with a draw-through carb (Lancers Mikuni 36mm round slide). The turbo would be mounted under the seat straight into the head to minimize any fuel pooling issues and the atomization of the fuel should keep the intake charge fairly cool. The carb would be mounted on the left side of the head to help eliminate any freezing issues. Turbo would be blanketed and wrapped to prevent heat issues. Exhaust dump pipe would be un-baffled straight through design out the opposite side that is usually is. Here is a rough drawing of the setup http://s17.postimg.org/tsmw76pgf/turbo.jpg The issues I'm aware of so far is the pulsing effect of a single cylinder. I won't know how this will affect things until I do it. But I would think that it should be able to spin the tiny VZ21 enough. And the problem with oil seals on the turbo. Under throttle shut off it the extreme vacuum will probably draw oil past the seals. Hopefully I can get a carbon seal for the VZ21 to prevent this. I plan on running a remote oil system for the turbo with an electric scavenger pump moving oil through a cooler and back into the turbo. No water cooling is necessary. I also wonder what draw the scavenger pump is going to have on the battery, especially since the remote battery mod might necessary to make room. On the other hand, if I can leave batter where is it the stock emissions breather tank thingy would be perfect place for the turbo oil. Any thoughts on all this? |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by jcstokes on 06/26/13 at 03:39:07 You probably know better than I, that the techies say the stock alternator is barely up to the job. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by ToesNose on 06/26/13 at 04:14:16 You can convert your headlight to an HID Projector and save a good amount of draw there, also if you need the room you can switch to a smaller frame lithium battery and mount it on the unused emissions tray. I'm not sure why you would want to turbo charge an LS650, but if you have the time, money and gumption I'm interested in seeing the results :D |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by arteacher on 06/26/13 at 04:19:50 Instead of a turbo charger, why not a super charger. You wouldn't have any electrical issues then. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by DieselBob on 06/26/13 at 04:32:27 I would argue for not bolting the turbo to the head. In the interest of reducing the pulsing effect you need a plenum/accumulator that is approximately 3 times the displacement of the engine. Singles are virtually unmanageable in the absence of an appropriately sized plenum. When the intake opens and demands a charge, there is not sufficient volume between the intake valve and the turbo if there's no plenum. Not only would you be starving the cylinder of an adequate charge, you would also be negating any attempt to raise the cylinder pressure as the turbo is being asked to simultaneously provide volume and pressure in a time frame that is quite unrealistic. A 2,000 cc plenum would be about right. And I would agree that if you had an external PTO if would be simpler to go with a supercharger. I've got a number of the little 300 and 500cc Aisin superchargers that would be great for this engine. They too would require a plenum. With regard to the power supply for running the remote oil pump, adding windings to the stator isn't brain surgery, just tedious. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by bobert_FSO on 06/26/13 at 05:27:34 Mechanical supercharger may be preferable and simpler, if you can figure out how to drive it. Many moons ago (late 60's), when I was still in high school, a friend picked up an unfinished project bike-- an all tube stretched drag frame with a Benelli 250 engine in it. The original owner had started to supercharge it with a little Judson(?) supercharger meant for MG Midgets and Austin-Healey Sprites. He had problems and abandoned the project. My friend and his brother did a lot of researching on supercharging and found that yes, a plenum was required. Their problem was the engine and blower were separately mounted to the frame and each vibrated differently, making sealing of the intake tract difficult. The original plenum was short and fat like a large sardine can. Further research revealed that the critical spec of the plenum was not intake length but volume. They created an intake manifold that was more like a long hose and could flex. The blower belt was driven off of a pulley on the stator side of the engine. They got it running. The exhaust pulse and sound was amazing. Big fat individual booms out of the exhaust pipe. One fun trick they would do, would be to flip the drive belt off while running, thus shutting down the blower. The resulting change in exhaust note was amazing, going from the big, sharp booms to a docile putt-putt when going from pressure to normally aspirated. I can't talk to driveability of their long intake tract. Unfortunately, my fried died in an accident before he could get rest of the bike outfitted for operation. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 06/26/13 at 13:16:16 How Superchargers Work. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/supercharger1.htm |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 06/26/13 at 13:39:23 Supercharged Suzuki LS650 Savage Engine He used a Eaton M45 Supercharger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKrfGay4FlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMX1zHzYzCs |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by Dave on 06/26/13 at 13:45:35 It all boils down to what you want to do. Do you want to ride your bike that is mostly reliable? Do you want a project that keeps you in the garaga a lot? You are looking at exploring unproven ground and it will require a lot of work and adapting and trouble shooting. I am not sure the air cooled Savage engine is capable of shedding the extra heat that turbo charging or supercharging can create. I know that when Porsche turbocharged the air cooled engine they added oil squirters that shot oil to the bottom of the piston for extra cooling and added a larger oil cooler in the car. You can get about all the horsepower that the Savage frame, brakes, clutch and transmission can handle by just throwing in a Wiseco piston, a cam, carb and exhaust changes......and it hopefully remains reliable and rideable. Just my two cents worth.... |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by apache snow on 06/26/13 at 14:03:18 You covered it pretty good Dave. A project like this would spend far more time in the garage than on the road. And not to mention a short life expectancy. :-? |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 06/26/13 at 14:23:46 Yes I kind of agree. However the article mentions if setup right with the right size Blower it can be very fuel efficient. Also the problem with altitude and fuel mixture would be fixed. There are turbos and blowers for racing and there are turbos and blowers for everyday running. RNO Cycles said and I quote "During the construction of the "Lucky Bastard" all kinds of ideas arose for another radical one cylinder bike. It had to be low and stretched. But what to do with the gap that arises between the engine and the rear wheel? You guessed it, the refrigerator opened and there was an Eaton M45 supercharger" |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 06/26/13 at 14:26:49 I'm silly enough to give it a try. :D But not until my current upgrades settle down. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by Dave on 06/26/13 at 14:29:17 2F3E2A33323E2D2C373E33335F0 wrote:
Well......there are show bikes.....and there are go bikes. I am guessing that the RNO bike is a show bike and it does not get ridden much. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 06/26/13 at 14:33:53 13282532232F343229212C33400 wrote:
Well......there are show bikes.....and there are go bikes. I am guessing that the RNO bike is a show bike and it does not get ridden much. [/quote] What about the cars that come with turbos and blowers that are your average run abouts. Surely they are not show cars. I had a Honda car that had a turbo and thats not a show car. Mitsubishi GTOs some have twin turbos and they are not show cars. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 06/26/13 at 14:36:01 Yes i am using cars as a example instead of bikes but the principle is the same. Here is a 50cc Supercharged pulling wheelies. ;D This is a bolt on kit. Imagine providing a bolt on kit for the Savage. They would sell like hotcakes, Especially if they were proven to last the distance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzKl4gpYK3o |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by savagebob on 06/26/13 at 14:46:21 I agree that many question the point, the reliability and the hassle. However just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it's not going to be fun trying it out. I recall when I used to play around with Ford 2L OHC engines in capris and escorts, I had similar responses "why bother, the engine won't handle it, it won't last, too complicated etc' Where as the results spoke for themselves. http://www.retrotech.co.nz/Projects/turbo-pinto.php Since then I've been a strong advocate for forced induction. By putting your efforts into forcing air into the engine seems much easier way of enhancing performance. That said, I'm new to bikes and new to the savage. I just thought it would be fun. My original idea was actually a supercharger driven off a pulley machined onto the stator drive, there is a convent hole already in the side cover :D Pity that it needs a plenum though.. with such little room, also with a draw-through carb setup I'd be concerned having a volume of fuel/air mix sitting under my butt. Fuel pooling issues in the plenum would also be an issue. JT |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by Dave on 06/26/13 at 14:49:36 25342039383427263D343939550 wrote:
The small cars that are built for turbos are water cooled, and were built to be turbocharged by thefactory. They have clutches, transmissions and radiators that were designed for the horsepower and heat that the engine was going to make. The fuel system and ignition advance system was designed to work with the extra boost. The factory already did all the testing and design work......it was not an add-on system.....it was an engineered package. My wife had a VW Jetta Turbo Diesel and we got 264,000 miles on it and it never missed a beat. It had an intercooler, a computer to control the injectors. It was desgned to work together as a system. I'm not saying that it can't be done. I am saying that it will not be easy, and that the results may not be rewarding for the amount of time and money invested. If you want a cool look.....it will certainly have it......If you want more horsepower you can obtain it easier with a few engine changes. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by savagebob on 06/26/13 at 15:22:43 Dave the old 2L Ford OHC was certainly not built to be turbocharged but it's been done it many times with great results, take a look http://www.retrotech.co.nz/Projects/nismocapri.php we've supercharged them, turbocharged em, with blow through carbs, draw through carbs, custom made efi intakes, mostly on factory internals on 30 year old engines. At the time people told us the same thing, 'cant turbo something which isn't made for it, won't last, will blow up, you'll forever have problems etc etc.' you'd be surprised what a standard engine can do with a little bit of boost, as long as you don't get silly with the psi they can be very reliable when compared to n/a equivalents which rely on high-compression and revs which puts more strain on a motor than forced induction. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 06/26/13 at 15:27:19 556E6374656972746F676A75060 wrote:
The small cars that are built for turbos are water cooled, and were built to be turbocharged by thefactory. They have clutches, transmissions and radiators that were designed for the horsepower and heat that the engine was going to make. The fuel system and ignition advance system was designed to work with the extra boost. The factory already did all the testing and design work......it was not an add-on system.....it was an engineered package. My wife had a VW Jetta Turbo Diesel and we got 264,000 miles on it and it never missed a beat. It had an intercooler, a computer to control the injectors. It was desgned to work together as a system. I'm not saying that it can't be done. I am saying that it will not be easy, and that the results may not be rewarding for the amount of time and money invested. If you want a cool look.....it will certainly have it......If you want more horsepower you can obtain it easier with a few engine changes.[/quote] Good point. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by Gyrobob on 06/26/13 at 15:54:14 7160746D6C60737269606D6D010 wrote:
The principles are sort of the same. The huge difference is one cylinder vs many. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 06/26/13 at 16:59:14 Here is a pic of what looks like a turbo on a Savage in our very own photo gallery. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/gallery/pictures.pl?start=205 |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by savagebob on 06/26/13 at 19:09:00 yeah I saw that, couldn't work out why the dump-pipe does back under the bike, are there any more shots of that at other angles? But yeah that is pretty much how I would see my setup looking with the turbo mounted directly behind the intake. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 06/26/13 at 19:21:47 Go for it. :D |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 06/26/13 at 19:31:41 Looks like it bolts onto something underneath. SavageRob might be a good place to start asking since he posted the photos. He might remember where it can from. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by SALB on 06/26/13 at 19:51:15 I think I'd be more inclined to take the safer, pre engineered route. Laughing gas! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D http://www.holley.com/03001NOS.asp [smiley=evil.gif] [smiley=evil.gif] [smiley=evil.gif] |
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Title: Re: forced induction on the thumper Post by savagebob on 06/27/13 at 12:45:31 ok so more research has confirmed that the pulsation from the single will upset a turbo quite a bit. Although i did find a vid of someone with a turbo single which is making boost http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwfe4LhJDqY not installed in a bike yet though so the actual rideability hasn't been confirmed. What about machining an extension and pulley off crank and running it out the stator cover for a small supercharger? :D |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by Charon on 06/27/13 at 13:27:29 The plenum isn't a new idea. The existing airbox on the stock S40 is also a plenum. It isn't just a funny-shaped filter holder. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by markbacon on 06/27/13 at 17:38:04 Goldhammer Nortorious (http://thekneeslider.com/notorious-by-roger-goldammer/ and http://www.goldammercycle.com/collection/nortorious) used Rotrex supercharger (http://www.rotrex.com/Home/Technology/Product_Concept) on a single cylinder engine. Seems like a better option for a single than turbo. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by DieselBob on 06/27/13 at 19:05:05 And while the Notorious appears to lack a plenum, here's an exerpt from a write up in Motorcycle Mojo "In order to have enough of an air plenum, he chose to have the intake on the front of the engine and still mount his supercharger on the rear. That means fitting the rear cylinder head on the massive front cylinder and running his ductwork over the engine and under the fuel tank" - evidence that an adequate volume of ducting can serve as your plenum. Other examples of blown singles include an Enfield and a Jawa as found in the links below. You'll note that the Enfield had to be heavily modified to accommodate the stresses imposed by the addition of the blower, while the Jawa - well................ they're just built to take that kind of abuse. http://myroyalenfields.blogspot.com/2012/09/supercharged-royal-enfield.html http://www.pipeburn.com/home/2011/3/5/jl-mekaniikka-supercharged-nitrous-jawa-500.html That said, blowing a Savage would be no small task. And as suggested, plan on plenty of time in the shop. Additionally, plan on a blow off valve and/or possibly burst panels. A backfire is not a pretty thing without them. Kind of like trying to sneeze with your mouth and nostrils clamped shut. And with a plenum positioned just below the family jewels, the absence of a blow off or sneeze panel can bring new meaning to the term "planned parenthood". |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by mpescatori on 06/28/13 at 01:35:59 A few considerations. If your plan to turbo/supercharge the Savage is "for the heck of it", do it and tell us about it. BUT If your plan to turbo/supercharge the Savage is to gain an extra 50-60% extra power, then you're barking up the wrong tree. A few engineering considerations: 1. The Savage is a small valve, big bore, air cooled single with well-known valve lubrication issues; charging the engine would mean extra stress on the crank journals and bearings; have you planned to re-engineer them or do you plan to bend/break the con rod? 2. The Savage is a big single, and charging the engine means the power down stroke would have twice, possibly three times the energy as originally designed... yet the crank counterbalance weights are engineered for the stock 32hp at 6500rpm... have you considered the vibrations exerted on the piston pin when the piston goes yahoo! at WOT 10-15psi ? 3. The Savage is a 650cc big single engineered to deliver a mere 32 hp; on the other hand, Suzuki's other "big single" family is the DR range (enduros) which are available in 600-650-750-800 cc variants which deliver 37-42-52-55 hp respectively. http://imageshack.us/f/29/dr750scat4.jpg/ In other words, you'll achieve more with less work if you shoehorn a DR750/800 engine in the LS650's frame. My three cents' worth... (there's inflation, exchange commission and overseas allowance :D) PS : I forgot... did you consider if the clutch is capable of handling the increased torque ? Primary gears in the transmission ? :-/ |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by savagebob on 06/28/13 at 03:41:55 was never the intention to get 60% more power or anything like that. But, like most I want a bit more out of the old lump and I always think if you can you should :D The effects of forced induction comes down on boost levels. Most engines can handle 5 or 6psi without complaint. In many cases forced induction is kinder on the engine than a n/a setup for revs. I'm more concerned with the pulsation effect on the turbo from the single.. the more I look into it the more :-/ it gets. I think a small supercharger would be interesting. and for the record the bike is just a bit of fun for me so I don't really think about if the clutch will die or if the engine will get too hot.. finding out is all part of the fun :D |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by JRLeathercraft on 06/28/13 at 17:56:18 When you get it done you'll have to post pix and video. If like to see that Jay |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by Charon on 06/28/13 at 19:38:55 I'm sure you already know this, but increasing the intake manifold pressure will also increase combustion chamber pressure and temperature. This quickly leads to the need for higher octane fuel to avert detonation. If the available premium fuels are not up to the task you might find yourself looking into racing fuel. The other alternative is to lower engine compression ratio a bit. You still get the benefit of burning more air/fuel mix, but lose a little efficiency to the lower compression. I don't recall the exact numbers, but when the MINI came out several years ago it was offered in naturally-aspirated and supercharged versions. I believe the compression ratio for the n/a version was up around 9.5, while the ratio for the supercharged version was about 6, maybe 6.5. The supercharged one made about half again the horsepower. Both required premium fuel. Presented merely for information. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by Grayowl on 06/30/13 at 07:26:38 22212236202826430 wrote:
http://www.holley.com/03001NOS.asp Has anyone got experience running nitrous on a LS650 ? I have been looking at that same kit for some time, thought it might be fun to have for “special occasions”. ;) |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by savagebob on 06/30/13 at 16:50:08 ^ THAT would be fun |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by Face on 07/03/13 at 21:00:33 If you are running a draw through design, DO NOT use a plenum. Not if, but when the engine backfires, you will blow up a perfectly good motorcycle, and probably a fair part of yourself. Since you've already found that a turbo won't work so well anyway, focus your research on supercharging. But, again, no plenum with draw through. Since the s/c would run off the crank or clutch, no plenum would be needed anyway. There are four main types of superchargers. Twin rotor, twin screw, eccentric vane, and centrifugal. All have their strengths and weaknesses. The aisin AMR300 or AMR500 are small size twin rotors that could work well. The Eaton M24 is too. From what I can tell, the Judson type eccentric vane would probably be best for this application, but good luck finding one. You could go blow through to eliminate puddling, but then you'd have to pressurize the float bowl and get real creative with jetting as the carb reacts to velocity not density. If you do go draw through, make friends with Lancer so he can give you advise on carb tuning. Whatever you decide, keep us posted. (Me primarily, as I intend to do a supercharger myself) Just be careful, and remember that if you do blow yourself up, we could all use the advice on what not to do! ;) |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by savagebob on 07/05/13 at 05:49:47 I never intended on running a plenum. Sitting on a chamber of pressurized air/fuel mix doesn't sound right to me. I was going to feed the turbo almost directly into the engine, perhaps with a small intake tube acting as a kind of plenum. Despite having a sweet little VZ21 turbo in my garage.. it's so perfect for it.. I might turn my attention to supercharging as you say. I'm thinking I could fab up a shaft to thread onto the end of the stator drive end, drill a hole in the access plug and mount a bearing there for it to spin on whatya think? |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 07/05/13 at 13:04:32 I think you have a vision and should pursue that vision. ;) |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/13 at 16:30:13 If I was gonna do that, Id REALLY wish for enough $$ to get a used engine & either build it up or swap it in, run it & build mine up on the bench. That way, you could work on it, set it up on a stand, get a fan on it, test it, work it out, then stick it in & ride, Then, you could sell the used engine,, |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by Face on 07/05/13 at 19:31:10 485A4D5A5C5E5954593B0 wrote:
I think that's probably the best place to tie into. You'll need to run some kind of oil seal in addition to the bearing. Are you thinking belt drive or chain drive? Jackshaft? What's your target boost? |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by Face on 07/05/13 at 19:38:40 4D5254534E4978487840525E15270 wrote:
I think you may have just hit the nail on the head, JOG! If there's one thing I'm good at (and I'm sure there is just one) it's pushing a motor too far and ending up with a really expensive paper weight. But, dam if it isn't fun 'till she blows!.....I could have phrased that better. |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/13 at 21:11:55 I think you may have just hit the nail on the head, JOG! good that you can recognize it,, i do it a lot, really,, tho some are just unwilling to get it,, |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by savagebob on 07/23/13 at 02:57:23 couple of interesting shots from my shed, here is a tiny AMR300 supercharger from a 660cc supercharged Vivio. It's just stuffed in there at the moment to show size. If I was going to use this I'd run it off a pulley mounted through the stator cover. http://s21.postimg.org/ew7obq11j/securedownload.jpg Here is an equally interesting shot of a VZ21 turbo stuffed in there.. it fits so well! http://s14.postimg.org/9lyyaj3up/securedownload_1.jpg The issue I'm thinking about now is the need for a plenum on a single cylinder. The thought of sitting above a box of pressurized air/fuel mix which could explode with a backfire makes me nervous. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/23/13 at 10:09:40 Build it with a weak side, so If it blows, it blows down & away.,maybe a section of a side,, |
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Title: Re: Turbocharging the thumper Post by savagebob on 07/25/13 at 18:28:08 this a rough sketch on a potential way to mount a pulley to the stator side of the engine, thoughts? http://s15.postimg.org/i64xwgxyj/pulley.jpg |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 07/29/13 at 14:57:13 Stumbled across this today while looking at alternative fuel tanks. If its already been posted my apologies. http://www.pipeburn.com/home/2011/3/5/jl-mekaniikka-supercharged-nitrous-jawa-500.html |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 07/29/13 at 16:19:45 yeah thats pretty sweet! not much of a plenum which is why he'd experiencing a rough idle from the sc pulses |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by LANCER on 07/29/13 at 17:35:00 http://www.pipeburn.com/storage/04_03_2011_jawa_500_01.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1299327810879 http://www.pipeburn.com/storage/04_03_2011_jawa_500_02.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1299328013073 http://www.pipeburn.com/storage/04_03_2011_jawa_500_03.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1299327853962 Some pretty nice work this dude did. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Face on 08/01/13 at 20:59:38 Tune it properly and get the drive ratio right on yer blower and you won't need a plenum. I will agree, that little turbo fits in there quite nice. Just thinking about exhaust routing, oil feed/return lines, intercooling, and carb tuning for variable boost levels makes my head hurt though. I think I'll stick with supercharging. That Aisin AMR300 is a rare find in the states. Where'd you get her? Wanna sell 'er? ;) |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Face on 08/01/13 at 21:02:56 5D505F5254430306310 wrote:
Love it! That outboard piggyback rear shock on a single sided swingarm is sweeeeet! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 08/01/13 at 21:10:39 they're not easy to find here in NZ either but they do come up from time to time. I could have got the AMR500 as well but it's physically larger. If for some reason all this fails miserably then I'll sell it. I've worked out that the crank pulley needs to be about 91mm I opened up the stator case last night pouring oil all over the floor. (That last bolt behind the peg is a nuisance!) My plan from the previous drawing is not going to work. There is not enough room in front of stator for bolts to hold a steel plate. So my plan is now a simple one, drill out the access port to accept a bearing. Take apart an alternator and use the pulley shaft. Machine the end of it to the same thread as the bolt that goes into the crank inside the stator cover. Done. I'm going to also need forward controls I think. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by verslagen1 on 08/01/13 at 21:58:04 584A5D4A4C4E4944492B0 wrote:
I think you'll need mid controls myself. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 02/02/14 at 17:49:44 Update on Supercharging progress. • Machined a sealed bearing into side cover • Designed and had an engineering firm make a drive shaft • Custom made adapter plate with keyway • Mounted Supercharger to original battery placement • Aligned pulleys Currently working on a tensioner system for the belt, I've nearly got the connection complete to engine, and the carb side is pretty straight forward. Nearly got a cover sorted for it as well. http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/swopn.jpg |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by ToesNose on 02/03/14 at 07:28:27 Very cool SavageBob, it seems you've made a lot of headway on the project and are nearing completion with project BOOST! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 02/03/14 at 18:51:22 thanks, I'm pretty keen to see how it goes, if successful I might look at putting together kits for people if there is enough demand. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by old_rider on 02/13/14 at 09:31:05 sbob... might want to ask these guys a question or two if you can find their site http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKrfGay4FlI Looks like they did a super charger on it... was back in 2011, I just ran across it looking at vids for different you tube mods.... |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by ChrisTech on 02/13/14 at 09:57:31 If the demand was there and you offered a kit (minus the supercharger it's self) what would be your price, you can ballpark wouldn't hold you to it. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by jcstokes on 02/13/14 at 10:29:21 The rno cycles site is easy to find, but I didn't find it all that informative |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 02/13/14 at 13:15:07 yeah I've seen that but unfortunately there is just no information on it and they don't answer any questions. Makes me suspicious that it didn't run well or something. Chris: I honestly don't know cost yet. Firstly I want to get it running and prove that it's a viable alternative for power. I'm hoping that it is going to be cheaper, more reliable and more powerful than the big-piston/cam/compression route. If it's not then I probably won't bother doing the kits. I had planned, initially, that I would be able to provide a complete kit with everything you need. I know that the AMR superchargers are a rare find in the US so I would look to provide those as an option. However, the parts involved so far are too varied and random for me to be able to produce en masse. What I mean is, I've built a lot of stuff from bits in my shed out of old car parts etc. So what it will probably be is a part-kit including the 'difficult' parts; Supercharger, Drive Shaft, Pulley, Belt, Modified stator cover with bearing. I can do those. Once it's running I'll look into the other random bits and see what can be provided: mounts, cover, tensioner, plumbing. But there will probably have to be some 'user-input' into competing it. And I might offer a 'basic' kit which will just be the drive shaft and cover mod for those who want to work out the rest of it themselves. But yeah, let me get it running first. :D |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 03/02/14 at 00:10:38 Ok I've got it running. Here is a short idling vid: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152359786147577&set=vb.568542576&type=2&theater¬if_t=like The carb is reacting in a strange fashion. It will idle, but as soon as I give it a little bit of throttle, the revs pick up for a sustained period and really slowly return. It's like, the intake is holding the slide open although that doesn't seem to be what is happening. If I give the throttle quite a decent, sharp pull then it will backfire and stall. I need to start the carb tuning.. carbs aren't my strong suit. :-/ but at least it runs! :D |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Michael L on 03/02/14 at 09:25:59 It sounds like the vacum from the turbo is holding the vacum controlled jet needle in the carb for too long after you let go of the throttle.. A CV carb is probably not the best choice.. With a CV carb you only control the air inlet by hand, the gas inlet is controlled by the vacum.. With a non CV carb you control both air and gas by the throttle.. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 03/02/14 at 12:20:08 Thanks Michael.. only it's not a CV carb, it's a VM36 Mikuni. And there is no turbo.. it's a supercharger. I have read on a few sources that hanging revs is a symptom of a lean mixture so I'll try adjusting the screw and then it's jet swapping time. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Michael L on 03/03/14 at 01:25:44 I thought it was a cv by looking at the pictures, and yes supercharger ofcourse... ;) Should've read the thread through before posting, my apologiez. Anyway super cool project, Im looking forward to see how it turns out..! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 03/03/14 at 02:25:11 had a muck around with it tonight. No adjustment seems to change the high idle. It's almost like the SC is drawing air at a high velocity under the slide even when it is shut. I remounted the carb to make sure the cable wasn't hanging on something - no change. ..It's possible that the VM36 isn't a good choice for this, or perhaps the UFO is the problem. I'll have another play tomorrow night and see if I can get to the bottom of it. SavageBob is quite loud.. i don't think the neighbours are enjoying having an apache chopper next to their bedroom at midnight. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by LANCER on 03/03/14 at 08:52:04 544651464042454845270 wrote:
You asked about spring pressure in your email, and that could be an issue with this setup. It is not something I've had to deal with before, so cannot say for sure but it is worth exploring. If there is a local shop with heavier springs available you could try, it would be worth it to see what happens. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by verslagen1 on 03/03/14 at 08:59:16 3E2C3B2C2A282F222F4D0 wrote:
And an air leak could be the cause. And would explain the high idle. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Dave on 03/03/14 at 09:21:54 savagebob: I can't see for sure how you have the carb and supercharger set up. Are you pulling air through the carb and then it goes into the supercharger...or do you have the supercharger pushing air into the carb? If you have the air from the supercharger going into the carb....I am not sure how you will ever get it to run correctly. The carb operates by having a vacuum in the the venturi - but if you are forcing air into the carb you may be eliminating the vacuum and pressurizing the venturi...and this will be most severe when the engine is at speed and you close the throttle resulting in "overboost". |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by curmudgeon on 03/03/14 at 10:35:21 I would hope he's running supercharger to carb, not the other way around. If you're running carb to supercharger, you're literally sitting on a pipe bomb waiting to explode. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Dave on 03/03/14 at 10:39:58 2A3C3B243C2D2E2C2627490 wrote:
That is my point however....supercharger to carb....and the carb will not function as it will not always have a vacuum in the venturi. Without the vacuum it cannot pull fuel out of the float bowl. Fuel injection (mechanical or electronic) works between the supercharger and engine.....carbs need to be operating at atmospheric pressure. Think about any V-8 engine with a blower and carbs....the carbs are sitting on top of the supercharger and the air is being pulled though the carbs where it gets the fule added, and then pushed into the engine. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 03/03/14 at 12:33:06 Yes it's a draw-through setup. Carb on one side, it draws air and fuel through into SC and then compresses to engine. It's a old school method and has been done like this since the 1940s. There is no plenum of significance or a intercooler so the tract isn't really large enough to be a bomb. Should that actually occur, it would just blow off the silicon joiner. So the carb doesn't know there is a supercharger there. Essentially it should just act like it's on a larger engine. However, it's possible that the SC is creating so much vacuum at idle that it's sucking fuel under the closed slide. The UFO might be making that worse |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Dave on 03/03/14 at 12:47:08 OK.....we got the carb on the "correct" side. I don't know anything about the UFO. I had a chance to use one - but first I tried the VM36 without one.....and it runs so nice I hate to change it. Without the UFO, I was surprised to learn that when the throttle is closed and a high vacuum is created by the closing of the slide - the mixture goes very lean. This is caused by the slide dropping and essentially closing off the main jet/needle jet and only allowing fuel to flow through the pilot jet.....while a bunch of air is pulled under the slide. Before I had the O2 sensor I had thought the high vacuum was pulling too much fuel.....and I was proven wrong. Our Savage backfires because the mixture is so lean when we close the throttle that the spark plug cannot ignite the lean mixture - but the hot exhaust pipe can once enough fuel builds up in the header (or you open the throttle enough that the combustion process in the cylinder resumes). The superchager may be causing this lean condition to occur whenever the throttle is closed and the inlet vacuum remains high while the engine is still slowing down. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 03/03/14 at 13:05:22 Dave that sounds quite plausible and would explain why I'm getting hanging revs I think.. one blip of the throttle and it just takes off like a aeroplane.. also explains why I get an massive backfire out exhaust when I shutdown. so.. any thoughts about what to do about the extreme vacuum? |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Dave on 03/03/14 at 13:17:12 There must be some way to make it work. Plenty of cars are running carbs and superchargers.....although they are running butterfly type carbs instead of slides. I don't know what the UFO does when the slide is closed......I know the pilot jets are made much smaller because the UFO allows fuel to be pulled out the Needle Jet at low throttle settings. I know a little bit about carbs and jetting.....I know nothing about adapting superchargers and turbos. I might suggest that adding an Oxygen sensor would let you know exactly what is going on with the fuel mixture and take away some of the guessing. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by LANCER on 03/03/14 at 13:41:08 The UFO just streamlines the throat and allows the air to flow with less resistance, which increases airspeed and improves the pickup of the fuel from the pilot system. That is why a smaller jet is needed. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 03/03/14 at 13:55:17 I have actually got an O2 connected, it's it a mount bolted up the tailpipe but isn't getting a reading. Either it's not getting enough exhaust back there for a decent reading - or more likely I haven't run it long enough to get it hot enough to work. My mate has a wide-band 02 I might borrow soon. I have looked at the slide whilst running, and I don't really think it's being sucked open. The VM36 has a fairly hefty spring.. I'd be really surprised if that is what is happening. Personally I think Dave is on the money, the SC can suck with so much vacuum even at idle that it's leaning out and running high. The idle screw doesn't lower the idle at all either.. it's like, the SC just drawing air under slide through extreme vacuum. Either that, or there is a leak somewhere. Everything is pretty tight though! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Matthewfriez on 03/03/14 at 16:22:34 Its too bad there isn't a bolt on EFI conversion... That would make adding a TC/SC a bit of a breeze. I hear the newer model is EFI. Someone should get brave an hack a brand new one down! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 03/03/14 at 16:40:15 yes and no, EFI makes it easy if you have a programmable computer. If not, and the injectors are only adequate for a stock application it can make things more difficult. Once I get to the bottom of the behaviour here my setup should be pretty straight forward I hope. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 03/04/14 at 02:34:40 Alright I think I got to the bottom of it. I checked all the clamps.. no change.. I tightened up manifold bolts.. no change.. I rejected carb.. no change. I took off VM36 and slapped the stock CV carb on.. and the problem disappeared. I don't think a round slide is going to be a good carb for this project.. the vacuum caused by the SC just pulls air and fuel through it seems. A real shame.. I had that carb all setup. So.. anyone suggest an alternative? Searches bring up the mikuni HSR 42 as being the best draw-through carb but could be too big.. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by ChrisTech on 03/04/14 at 05:23:13 Bob, Any way you can post a YouTube video of it running, can't view your Facebook video on this stupid ipad. I'm dying to see it running, glad to see it's working out. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Dave on 03/04/14 at 05:24:52 Savagebob: You might try ditching the UFO before you abandon the Mikuni. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 03/04/14 at 13:06:12 Yeah I'll give that a go - if the UFO is removable. I actually think the CV carb might actually be better. I can use a way smaller carb as the SC creates the vacuum and will draw the air and fuel it wants. I'd have to rejet much larger of course.. Chris - I'll do a youtube video later on, at this stage running at idle isn't really that exciting. I'd rather get a GoPro vid of me savage boosting down the street |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Steve H on 03/04/14 at 16:20:26 You can get an EFI kit. check out http://www.ecotrons.com/products/ |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 03/04/14 at 18:10:31 Interesting, but I'd rather keep it old-school. Also I doubt the electrical system is up to running a high-pressure fuel pump and EFi. Righto, I removed the UFO and put the mikuni back on - no change. It just doesn't like the slide carb. How much fuel can the CV carb flow with jetting? Enough to fuel 60hp? |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by markbacon on 03/06/14 at 15:05:25 Don't know if this helps, but anyway ... In a normally aspirated engine at idle there's a lot of pressure pulsing in the inlet tract that alternately pushes air out and sucks it in. So the bottom edge of the butterfly or slide, where the idle orifice is located, sees both in and out air movements for each intake stroke. Each movement sucks fuel, so idle circuits are actually tuned lean because they're going to deliver a double dose. The SC will be damping out the pressure pulsing, so idle circuit would have to be re-tuned to suit. Since idle circuit is usually a branch off the pilot circuit, the pilot jet may have become a limiting factor in the VM36. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 03/06/14 at 17:15:26 Limited as in the fuel delivery or limited in the design? I changed pilots a few times with the VM36 and couldn't get a changing result. I'm going to rejet the original CV and run with that I think. MarkBacon..you're not from Christchurch are you? |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by markbacon on 03/06/14 at 22:24:59 Limited as in fuel delivery. The CV carb will probably be easier to tune - slides look easier but there's all sorts of things you can end up having to stuff around with to get them right - slide cutaway, accelerator pump adjustment, needles, etc. CV might not give you the same potential but it takes care of a lot of things for you. You'd be very unlucky to have to do more than idle screw, pilot/main jets, needle position. One thing to watch with the standard CV is the enrichment circuit - that's the diaphragm operated one on the side. If that's crusty it can make things unhappy - pull it apart and clean it out, especially the tiny drilling in the diaphragm cover. The spring in there seems to be the culprit in the famous savage banging on over-run. It's too stiff and closes the enrichment circuit before revs have dropped far enough for the idle circuit to deliver enough fuel. Running slightly over-rich pilot jet and idle screw can mask this. If you want to sort this out properly, someone on this forum found a softer spring from an outboard. Somebody else tried cutting the spring, but I think that ddin't work out too well. Not Chch - Wellington |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 03/27/14 at 02:17:59 Ok time for an update. It's all running and I took for my first ride today. I've had a funny time with the CV carb. Ended up putting some VM36 pilots in which were too rich at idle until I dropped down to a 12.5. Shaved white spacer to half size. 170 main. I've also put one range colder plug in. It's a bit harder to start than normal and requires a bit longer on the enricher before it will idle ok without it. Much louder and deeper noise, have had to put a baffle up the back of the drag-pipe to quiet down some. Took it around for a spin. Currently running more boost than I was expecting. Looks like it will run over 10psi which is a bit much. Runs way to lean so I'm going to take white spacer out completely, put a 15 pilot and a 200main and see what happens. http://s28.postimg.org/cab3e38il/bike.jpg |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Yoshi on 03/27/14 at 03:50:54 I think you left out the most important detail, is it any faster? |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by curmudgeon on 03/27/14 at 05:10:09 Got any video? I'm dying to hear what it sounds like! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/27/14 at 09:49:52 If that thing is makin 10 PSI boost AND the mix gets lined out,, then its Gonna be faster,, Keep swinging at it, man! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 03/27/14 at 13:32:15 Yeah it goes without saying that it's a lot faster, instantly quick off the line. But I can't nail it until I get the fuelling sorted. Right now, it's just not getting enough. I'll probably have to jet the CV as big as possible - failing that I'll either have to reduce the boost or get a different carb. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/27/14 at 21:22:47 By ALL means, get a bigger CARB!!! Heck,, I dunno,, wouldnt wanna see ya blow it up,, if you gotta reduce the boost to get it running right, that mite just be the smart move. Can ya Re-gear the blower & slow it down? |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 03/28/14 at 00:37:16 Yeah, I'm going to jet the CV as good as I can. It will be good if the CV provides a little bit of a restriction for the boost levels. If I put a bigger carb it might even make more boost. I can re-gear the blower fairly easily by putting either a bigger pulley on the supercharger - or a smaller pulley on the drive. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 04/27/14 at 14:55:54 Quick update. I hunted out a smaller pulley from the wrecker yard. Went from a 100mm to a 92mm pulley. This has reduced the boost from spiking at 15psi to 11psi. When I whip the throttle open the boost spikes up to 11psi and settles to 7psi. Which is good. No more detonation. I've got the jetting pretty sorted methinks. I'm running a 12.5 (VM) pilot in the CV with 2 tiny washers in place of the white spacer (no washers caused fuel to seep out from the needle constantly) and a 190 main. Goes well, but I've noticed that cruising slowly into a corner in 2nd and then opening the throttle when the revs are low can cause the motor to cut out... might need to tweak something there. It's surprising how smooth and instant the power is, and how quickly I've just gotten used to it. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by LANCER on 04/28/14 at 04:33:02 What kind of riding have you done so far ? speeds ? seat of the pants acceleration ? or are things still to early to try that yet ? Very interesting following what you've done. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 04/28/14 at 14:57:30 Not a lot of riding of any significance yet. I've just taken it around the streets, to a mates house a few times, around the streets some more. It's quite loud and I get a lot of angry looks from the public. Speeds.. probably up to 80km/h whats that for you yankies.. 50mph? I'm increasing the speeds incrementally as I'm listening for any detonation and watching my air/fuel gauge closely. Seat of pants. The SC delivers instant pull, so there is no lag or anything like that like a turbo. It's more like riding a larger displacement bike. First gear seems pretty short, I boost off in first and hook second hard (to avoid the quite obvious savage neutral) then it pulls hard in 2nd and I usually run out of road and have to slow down by 3rd. :D I thought the SC would make a loud whine like a hotrod but it doesn't. You can't really hear it mainly over the loudness of my drag-pipe. Which is still too loud. It's quite hard to measure the performance yet. It was off the road for so long while I built it that I've almost forgotten what it was like before. I would like to put it on a dyno to see what it's actually producing. I'm still slightly concerned with the heat. I've been thinking back towards that oil-cooler thread again.. should I.. or shouldn't I |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by LANCER on 04/28/14 at 16:57:00 Put a cylinder head temp gauge on the little beasty. It may not be ideal, but it will give you something to go by. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by jcstokes on 04/28/14 at 18:16:09 Hope you have a friendly WOF person, or aren't you going to bother? |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 04/28/14 at 19:01:48 I haven't got to that yet. I'm thinking.. if I turn up without the belt on it.. then they can't really fail me on it. 8-) Otherwise I'll just remove it entirely.. cover up the crank pulley somehow and then put it all back on again. Or go get a cert. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 04/29/14 at 18:53:39 From the looks of it a standard sav with exhaust and carb mods nets around 32hp at the rear wheel Can anyone tell me what the maximum dyno proven power output for a modified savage is from this site? |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 05/01/14 at 15:57:26 Another update for anyone who is interested. Took bike out last night for some good runs up to 120kmph but I think the CV carb is just too small. The bike pulls hard in low revs, but it falls off the power took quickly in 1st and 2nd..it demands a gear change way earlier than it should. So basically you need to shift gears quickly to keep the revs low so it can flow enough air. I think with higher revs it just can't suck anymore air through. I don't think it's about jet sizes, i've been chasing my tail, I think it's about the amount of air that can be drawn through that carb. Say, at 3,000rpm the engine and boost is demanding a lot more air and not getting it. So, I'm going to remove the BS40 carb and put something bigger on.. maybe a SU carb from a Harley, 45mm.. which should flow way more air though. I'll let you know results. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 06/30/14 at 19:33:37 Ok I'm back. I was right about the savage CV carb being too small, even with the largest jets it simply couldn't flow the air required. I starting tinkering with a SU HIF6 (44mm) which was massive.. and heavy! I quickly gave up on that when the throttle shafts were leaking and I didn't want to spend money on it knowing it was probably too large. Got myself the popular Keihin CV40 off a Harley (40mm). Threw a jet kit in it guessing the settings and took bike out and holy crap what a difference it made. :o It's another beast now. 1st gear is short, launch and change then a HUGE pull in second and you've run out of street. Boosting in 3rd and I'm in loss of license speeds. I'll need to take out out somewhere decent for a proper strop. But I'm over boosting again, I'd put a smaller pulley on to reduce boost, but now with the larger unrestricted carb I'm back to making too much boost (15-20psi). So I'll like to pull that back again if I can. It goes hard enough to impress my mate who rides a Honda VFR800 Interceptor.. 8-) |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 07/01/14 at 00:29:21 Sounds like your making some good progress. ;) Good old Kiwi ingenuity ;) Another Burt Munro in the making. :) Other than getting a cert you could always buy a cheap savage registered and WOF swap the plates WOF and Reg onto the beast you have just created. When a WOF is due swap back and take the cheap Savage for the WOF done. :) If you do Cert it do everything first. Think about any cosmetic changes etc. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by jcstokes on 07/01/14 at 02:26:35 Thank god or someone that no one from MOPP (Ministry of Petty Prosecutions) or MOOC (Ministry of Offence Creation) is likely to read your posts Mr Marshall. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 07/01/14 at 03:13:46 3039292E35313F295A0 wrote:
::) I was forced at gun point to say those things. :) |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 07/01/14 at 14:54:57 I'll get a cert eventually. But for now it's pretty simple to get a wof. Just remove SC belt, remove intake manifold and connect carb back to head. Take it in - they can't fail me on a supercharger fitted if it's not connected up. This is what I did just the other day. ;D |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by jcstokes on 07/01/14 at 16:12:09 Good sense. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 07/01/14 at 16:31:35 Yes I agree best to keep it legal if you can. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by DennyzfR6 on 10/17/14 at 11:51:09 Hello savagebob. Great project you have got going!! I am currently at the start of a project very much like this. I was hoping you'd be willing to answer a few questions, it would really help me along. The very first one, is the engine still in one peace? ;) How many miles have you put on it since the boost? Also, have you got any idea about the oil temps you are reaching now with the charger on there? Hope the bike is still running and to hear more about your progress. Regards, Dennis |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 11/16/14 at 20:02:30 Sorry for the late reply Denny.. I've been so busy boosting around on my bike that I haven't been back to the computer for a while to make a post. Yes the engine is still in one piece.. I haven't put that many kms on yet as it's been winter here in New Zealand. I have no idea about Oil temps yet as I haven't gotten around to putting a temp gauge on. The main thing I've been doing is solving the lean-back fire problem in tuning. Every time it make a pop from being lean it would blow a hole through the silicon joiner in my manifold. This has been solved with the addition of a relief valve set at 25psi to let the pressure vent out if it backfires. Currently it's running pretty good.. so good I'm reluctant to try and tune it more.. although I know it's still a bit rich at idle.. I'm planning on leaving it until it goes on a dyno and let the experts tweak it. Once I have some proven performance results I plan on putting together a few more kits to sell to see if anyone is interested. Here is a photo of SavageBob at work today.. boosting to work on a supercharged savage is probably the most fun commute to work I have ever experienced. http://s4.postimg.org/ii0pm3rx9/sbob.jpg |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by paulmarshall on 11/16/14 at 20:05:25 Looks mean mate. Some more close up photos please. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by jcstokes on 11/16/14 at 22:43:45 Good to see your progress, and good to see it being done in Godzone. Perhaps if all works out you should take it to the Bert Munro, but more for display than serious racing as I doubt the handling will now match the engine. There are some threads somewhere on the tech section about fitting oil temp gauges. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by DennyzfR6 on 11/17/14 at 01:03:14 Thanx for the reply Savagebob. Just knowing that it is still in one peace gives me a confidence boost to keep searching for the SC, I had almost given up on it. The project is getting along nicely. The cafe build of the bike, however I just can not get a hold of the SC i'd like to use. Another guy I have been in contact with here in the Netherlands did a build with an Eaton M45 SC. I does work and drive, but it is more of a showbike. The M45 is a bit too big which means really low RPM on the SC or ending up with too much boost and no whining noises if you know what I mean. I really really want to use an Eaton M24 SC, but this has only ever been used on a Ford Fiesta model in Brazil. :-/ Have contacted a guy here who speaks Portugese but we never get any replies back, kind of frustrating. The valve is just a spring loaded pop off valve I recon, I was thinking of doing the same thing actually. Anyway, your bike looks awesome! Love the front brake setup aswell! Another thing I'll have to look into once the SC setup happens! Fingers crossed! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 11/17/14 at 12:30:28 Imo the EatonM45 is still too big. I used the AMR300 which is perfect size for this motor. It's the smallest SC you can get I believe. Even then, it's not easy to get everything to fit. The first hard part was probably alignment.. that was painstaking.. mainly because I'm no mechanic or engineer and just cobbling together stuff in my shed. The carb was the second headache.. I tried 3 carbs before settling on the Keihin CV40 from a Harley. Which works much better than the others I tried (Stock carb's too small, Mikuni round slide lifts under boost, SU too big and heavy and weird. The third was pulley size.. I tried so many different pulleys to find the size that provides a reasonable 10-15psi. The fourth was blowing manifolds.. solved with a relief valve. I'm mostly there with it. My one final problem is a weeping of oil from the SC drive hole. It's a sealed bearing in there.. but they're designed to seal against grease.. not oil. It doesn't leak when it's running.. and it doesn't leak when it's cold. But, after taking it for a run, then leaning it over when it's hot.. the oil slushes to that side of the motor and slowly seeps out a bit. I'm trying to come up with a way to park the bike upright as a easy solution. Paul how is your big bore motor going? Have you dyno'd yours yet? Not sure what you want close up pics of? http://s4.postimg.org/fe0v0j9zh/sbob2.jpg |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Todd James on 11/18/14 at 23:37:10 If you truly are not a mechanic or an engineer, then its remarkable that you've designed and built a mechanism that many of us wouldn't attempt to build in a fully equipped shop, let alone in a shed. You've shown creativeness and determination in solving each challenge that's come up. Thanks for taking the time and effort to share your project with us. Please continue to include us in your progress reports. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Dave on 11/19/14 at 03:36:50 3C2E392E282A2D202D4F0 wrote:
Not to state the obvious....but a kick stand on the other side would work. For some reason Trials motorcycles have the kickstand on the other side, and you might be able to adapt one from a trials bike. Some mount on the swing arm, and it might be as simple as welding some tabs for the mount and spring. Or....a longer kick stand that doesn't allow the bike to tip over as much. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by DennyzfR6 on 11/19/14 at 05:07:13 48636F6771566D6666020 wrote:
I fully agree! A source of inspiration! Ow, and if anyone knows where to find an Eaton M24 SC please let me know! They are used on a Ford Fiesta 1.0 in Brazil... it would be the perfect size for the Savage. Also the inlet is on the side en the outlet deadcenter in the middle, so fitment is also great. Plus it should be able to wind up to about 15000 rpm without creating too much boost so i'd definately hear it :) |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 11/19/14 at 12:25:27 Thanks for the encouragement. No I am definately not a mechanic, I'm actually a graphic designer and I draw pictures on a computer for a living to be completely honest LoL. We kiwis like to cobble together stuff in our sheds, it's how we roll over here. Denny I do think you'll still find the M45 too big.. it's designed for a 1000cc and the savage is only 650. I know that's what Rno's Slick Chick used.. but to be honest I've talked to the guy from Rno and I'm kind of dubious that the bike runs very well at all to be honest. I think it's more of a show piece.. The AMR300 that I used is from a Subaru Vivio which is 658cc and it's small and light and I think it's perfect. Kick stand on the other side.. I have thought of that. I wasn't aware Trial bikes are on the other side I might look into that. Otherwise I was just going to bend mine down so it stands the bike upright, and then put a small counter stand on the other side under the swing arm or something. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by DennyzfR6 on 11/19/14 at 13:58:21 Savagebob, I think you misread my posts. I agree with you on the fact that the M45 is too big. That is why I am looking for the M24 The slick chick is indeed more of a showbike, at least in my opinion. I also spoke to him offcourse, he also gave me some good advice. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by HondaLavis on 11/19/14 at 18:00:18 Another thought would be to adopt a small center stand. I know somebody else on the forum has one. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by LANCER on 11/19/14 at 18:04:18 Cool stuff marches on. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by jcstokes on 11/19/14 at 18:49:41 There's no possibility of the exhaust biting you if you put the stand on the other side? In the meantime just blame the local vintage car/bike person for oil residue on the ground, best of all blame English classic bike owners for doing it. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 04/06/15 at 16:44:04 Whilst I'm here it's time for another update. I've been riding the bike everyday, and it's been good. The backfiring/exploding intake issue was solved with the addition of a relief valve. Now when it's cold and decides to backfire in the intake instead of punching a hole in my intake, the valve just pops open. :D I've also put a larger pulley back on it to increase the boost to 25psi. It sounds like a ridiculous amount of boost (I initially only wanted to run 5!) But I'm convinced the high readings from the gauge are not what they seem. 25psi is the pressure readings from my small intake tract. However the motor ought to grenade itself if it was running that amount of boost inside the cylinder. I'm fairly convinced that because the single piston only opens the intake 1 in ever 4 strokes, the pressure in the intake is much higher than what the cylinder sees. This is why when I reduced the pulleys to give me a 10psi boost the performance was barely noticeable. That 10psi might only have been 2psi once the cylinder inhales. So I've cranked it back up and it's going good. Took the bike on it's first open-road/highway trip with some mates on their sports bikes. It was a hot day and I started getting some detonation. :-/ This was the first time SavageBob has seen sustained boost. i.e. boosting between traffic lights in the city is not the same as continual boost doing 100kmph. I was running 95 octane. I've now increased that by adding toluene to my tank so it's probably around 98-100 octane now. I'll see how that makes a difference on the open-road next time I get a chance. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by jcstokes on 04/06/15 at 18:42:25 I will never need it, but out of interest, how much Toluene are you adding for your alleged 3 to 5 extra octanes? |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 04/06/15 at 19:54:44 Well, based on a bottle of aftermarket octane booster (mostly Toluene based) which is 325ml and treats an 80L tank to raise octane by 5. I'm just using a bit of trial and error and adding about 30mls per savage tank to raise the octane by 3 or 4 points. I think 5 is overkill. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Kris01 on 04/06/15 at 20:33:18 Do the math. Toluene has an octane rating of 114. If you run 25% toluene and 75% 93 octane that equates to: (0.25*114) + (0.75*93) = 98.25 octane (average) |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Kris01 on 04/06/15 at 20:39:59 I think what those bottles call an "octane point" is actually about 0.1 points. 30 ml of 114 octane added to the Savage tank will only increase a tank of 93 octane to around 93.5 octane. ;) |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 04/06/15 at 21:05:23 heh, maths was never my strong suit..but the back of the bottle of octane boost I have says 325ml raises 80L by 5 octane points. But now I realise as you say, that 'points' are not going from 95 to 100.. but from 95 to 95.5.. I also thought Tolly was 121 octane in RON? Which is how we measure it at the pump isn't it? I'm adding it to 95 octane. Wanting to raise it to about 98. Maybe I need to add a couple of L per tank to do that. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by jcstokes on 04/07/15 at 12:01:09 Savage Bob, the Americans use AKI anti knock index which apparently is different to RON. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Kris01 on 04/07/15 at 19:40:17 You are correct. Toluene has a RON number of 121 (MON 107) (R+M)/2 = 114 |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Kris01 on 04/07/15 at 19:51:21 Add enough toluene to fill 20% (about 2.1L) of the tank and you should see ~100 octane RON. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by old_rider on 04/07/15 at 20:03:11 Been following loosely.... Are you sure it won't blow the rings doing that? Detonation in the intake would counter act your compression stroke and you would actually loose power no matter how much air and fuel you are pushing into the cylinder. Have you dyno'd the bike? and adj. the flows? used sensors and temp guages? or are you just driving and going by what it does and how it acts? OK... i'll just sit back and listen to the post a bit more.... LOL, maybe i'll go back to the beginning again , my memory sux....;D ;D |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 04/07/15 at 20:59:00 I'm not 'sure' about any of this 8-) But I can't see how raising the octane can be a bad thing. It's only really for sustained boost trips on the open-road. If I'm going to be doing that I'll throw in some Tolly. It doesn't detonate boosting around the city. No I haven't dynod the bike yet unfortunately finding a motorbike dyno locally is a bit of a mission. They seemed to have disappeared after a big earthquake we had a few years back. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by LANCER on 04/09/15 at 03:32:53 Good to see you are still firing on all ONE cylinder ! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Dave on 04/09/15 at 04:31:14 475542555351565B56340 wrote:
Since you like to tinker.....some of the WWII fighter jets had lots of boost on takeoff, and they had a water injection system to cut back on the detonation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_%28engine%29 |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/09/15 at 05:31:09 Have you considered maybe making the timing variable.? |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 04/09/15 at 14:48:13 Dave: yeah I have thought about water injection but.. not seriously. Too complicated really. Also, eveytime I've seen someone do a garage water injection system it's been a disaster! Ha ha. Justin: Any ideas how I would do that? |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/09/15 at 23:29:21 I'm not sure that it's ever been done. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Dave on 04/10/15 at 03:18:59 584741465B5C6D5D6D55474B00320 wrote:
I have never seen it made variable - but I have seen it made adjustable. One fellow backed his timing off a bit by making the mounting holes for the stator slotted....so he could rotate the plate a small bit. I am wondering if this is a worthwhile modification for those of us who have a higher compression Wiseco. (I am going to try this once I have the GPS speedometer mounted so I can compared 0-60 and 1/4 miles times before and after). Backing the timing off a degree or two (or three) could help when under full boost...while not having a negative effect while cruising. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by dustin1455 on 04/29/15 at 19:30:26 hey savagebob, after installing the supercharger how did you did you adjust the engine for the extra boost? did you change the valve springs? what are the specs of the cam you use? also, do you have pics of the drive pulley setup? i am interested in possibly putting a supercharger on my savage in the future and i am curious how you did it. did you ever solve the "oil leak" problem? have you considered using an output shaft seal? |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 11/10/15 at 19:33:55 The engine is stock.. no mods needed. (yet ;) ) I removed all the stuff I could to try and max airflow for cooling. It works fine boosting around town. On a open-road trip it detonated a bit as I think it just got too hot. I started putting tolley into my fuel to see if that helps. Maybe it's a town warrior. It's actually been parked up for most of the year while I moved house etc. I got a new intake manifold made for it but haven't had time to run it yet. The oil leak.. nah.. fixed it by carrying around a wee block of wood and when I park up the bike I put the stand on it so the bike sits more upright. That way the oil doesn't seep out. I used a sealed bearing but they are really sealed against dust.. grease.. not hot oil. I'll look into an output shaft seal - might work but there isn't much room there for one. http://s8.postimg.org/c3cr34lnp/IMG_3052.jpg |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Gus on 11/10/15 at 19:57:54 This truly remarkable, very interesting and down right imaginative. Thanks for giving us a window into your progress. Just Awesome! 8-) |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by vanna_brown on 01/23/17 at 17:46:59 Hey SB, so, I can find the super chargers on eBay but I don't know where I would start to look for fabricating the shaft and bearing combo can you give me some more info on how you made those. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Dave on 01/23/17 at 17:53:25 Savagebob has not signed onto this site since November 2015. Building your own supercharger setup is not easy, and not something that most beginning mechanics should undertake....in addition to the problems of getting the mechanical parts to work....the carb and timing are all problematic. It is much easier (and proven reliable) to increase the compression with a Wiseco piston, increase the breathing ability with a cam and some head work, and a better exhaust system. With some simple engine mods you can get the Savage engine to make enough HP to challenge the chassis and brakes, and become a pretty decent bike for 70+ mph highway travel. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by springman on 01/24/17 at 11:34:17 Dave, forgive my ignorance but you just mentioned something I have heard before but never understood. "make enough HP to challenge the chassis and brakes". I understand challenging the brakes, but not the chassis. What are the issues with putting too much hp and speed on the bike? Thanks. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Dave on 01/24/17 at 12:02:12 When pushed hard, the Savage can get a bit wiggly in the sweepers. I don't claim to know what is flexing or moving around, and I am far more comfortable on really tight turns than I am on high speed sweepers - but the Savage does not have a frame like the Norton Featherbed that inspires confidence while riding at speed.....it does have limitations. Most of the time the scraping footpegs serve as the limiting factor in how hard you can push the Savage in the corners....and the lack of HP limits the speed on the straight sections. The hardest I have ever pushed my bike was when we were riding on the Dragon with your brother in law Steve. It was the first year with my big front brake from Shawn, and when I was really braking hard, I could feel the bike wiggling/trembling as the weight shifted to the front wheel. That may be one of the reasons that performance bikes have dual discs up front....to keep the forks from twisting under hard braking! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by springman on 01/24/17 at 15:08:12 OK, I think I understand. I guess it is basically the rigidity of the frame. I have not pushed the bike that hard but I see what you mean. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by gizzo on 01/24/17 at 18:19:06 1C272A3D2C203B3D262E233C4F0 wrote:
Nah, they are for slowing you down quickly. Cheaper versions of the same bike will sometimes feature only 1 front brake. They still stop straight. The massive front forks, beefy headstem and beam or triangulated frames stop the squirming. None of which the mighty Cabbage is blessed with. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 04/20/17 at 15:27:49 714A4750414D56504B434E51220 wrote:
Has it been that long?! Wow.. um sorry! Jeez 32 messages.. sorry people. BTW I'm not a mechanic or an engineer. I'm a graphic designer. And I managed to build a supercharged savage. I can probably supply basic kits if anyone is interested. It would consist of the shaft and a bearing. You'd need to machine out your cover plate for the bearing.. find the supercharger.. and everything else. It is a lot of work. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by LANCER on 04/20/17 at 17:11:38 Where have you been dude ? |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 06/19/17 at 19:16:04 ahhh ha ha I'm still around. Unfortunately life ended up really getting in the way of things for me and SavageBob. He's been tucked away under a sheet in the garage now for a couple of years. Now I'm starting to think about him again so might have to do something. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by LANCER on 06/19/17 at 19:49:41 7A687F686E6C6B666B090 wrote:
Crank up some of those dormant brain cells and start tinkering on your bike again. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by jcstokes on 06/20/17 at 13:36:24 Rego and WOF before too much else, hope he's been kept on hold. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 12/16/17 at 18:07:18 SavageBob is back in action. After a few years hiatus I've pulled the sheet off and fired it up. Decided to put the larger pulley back on and she's going real good. I still want to come up with some kind of cooling.. it's not a problem for boosting around town. But sustained highway boosting.. I worry I will melt the piston. Perhaps a air-scoop? I have an oil cooler but haven't put it on.. don't really want to start that debate again. But I wonder if it's worth it just for the extra oil volume. Otherwise I'm also tempted to pull some timing out of it. Has anyone mucked around with timing on the savage? I'd love to convert it to programmable timing.. But yeah other than that she flies good. Can wheel spin the back tyre and lift the front if I launch too hard. I'm now tempted to start putting together an big piston engine with a cam etc.. http://https://image.ibb.co/inyTZm/25348302_10156076785917577_250459327342333850_n.jpg http://https://image.ibb.co/m1ern6/25348748_10156076785957577_3984104258671653034_n.jpg http://https://image.ibb.co/g8HBn6/25398751_10156076785992577_7741674000710525150_n.jpg |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Ruttly on 12/16/17 at 19:07:36 If your worried about heat then why did you wrap the exhaust ? All that's doing is backing up the heat to the engine. I would take a temp reading at a spot on the head near the exhaust while riding at freeway speed and then remove wrap and take another reading. About 75 to 80 percent of the engines heat is expelled out the exhaust. Guess the fab of wrapping the exhaust is cause it just looks cool ? A oil cooler is your best bet ! Cheers ! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Ruttly on 12/16/17 at 19:52:59 Very cool bike ! I've been waiting for years for Suzuki to add EFI so I could take a crack at adding a turbo , it the perfect engine with its stock low compression. Love the ammo box , I got two put aside for a rat bike project some where down the road. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 12/17/17 at 12:56:09 Fair call with the wrap. I put that on there long before I boosted it. The wrap is there cos yeah it looks cool. It stops you burning your leg / melting a shoe. Also, under my pipe isn't the factory header, that's a custom made pipe so it doesn't have the 'second skin' like the OEM pipe. The wrap keeps the exhaust gases hotter so they flow quicker.. I have no idea how much soak back it gets as a result.. hmmm I was originally going to turbo it. I even had a tiny turbo ready. But the biggest problem was an oil feed for the turbo. The Sav just doesn't have the ability to pump high pressure oil into a turbo. And doesn't have the electrical capacity to run an external high-pressure electric pump either. You would need to run a completely external oil system. The other problem is as mentioned, the Sav doesn't have much in the way of extra cooling options unlike a water cooled bike where you could upgrade the radiator etc. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by batman on 12/17/17 at 15:29:59 I'd take off the exhaust wrap ,just to see what color(s) the pipe is or changes to at speed, if the pipe is glowing red hot or bluing badly ,it might be that your running more boost than it can handle ,and to much raw fuel is carrying over to burn in the exhaust pipe .The pipe turns blue when rich or lean. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by batman on 12/17/17 at 20:24:42 Building the motor with a larger /or higher compression piston may make your overheating problem worse .If you're still going to run the blower, I'd shorten the stroke , bring the compression down to around 7.5 from 8.5 , this might be as easy as adding a thicker gasket to the base of the cylinder. If you have enough miles on the bike the cam chain should be able to handle the added height . |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Dave on 12/18/17 at 03:50:01 An oil cooler may help - but I am not sure how much. Although the cooler would help to lower the temperature of the oil, there really isn't very much flow to the head, and the small amount of "cooler" oil may not make much of a difference to the head/cylinder temperature. I also don't like using a cooler if there isn't any kind of a thermostat in the system - so that the oil isn't being overcooled when the air temperature is low (maybe that isn't a problem where you live....but it can be in northern climates). The big problem with increased temperatures from boost is the piston crown - it can get overly hot. Not long ago boosted car engines started to get oil "squirters" and hollow piston crowns - oil is sprayed on the bottom of the piston and it cools the piston crown. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 12/18/17 at 12:37:30 Has anyone looked into ways to increase oil pressure in the system? Upgrading the pump parts? I wouldn't worry about the oil getting too cool where I live (New Zealand) I don't ride in the winter here and our summers are hot. I'll do some more sustained highway speed runs and see if it's a problem again. I should start by sticking a temp sensor on somewhere. See what is going on. Pulling some timing out would probably help. One of the funny things I've realised with this project is I really have no idea how much boost I am running. I have a gauge of course. But on a single intake manifold, it's closed 3/4 of the time. Boost in the intake manifold is much higher than what is being seen inside the combustion chamber. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by batman on 12/21/17 at 09:41:01 No one has taken into consideration the fact that blowers and turbos demand that the compression of the motor must be low and that jamming fuel mix into the cylinder leads to more of it ending up in the oil, we only have a couple of quarts ,which means much more frequent oil changes if we expect not to due harm ,and shorten the life of the motor,( and a turbo if it doesn't have it's own supply and cooling).We have been talking about running low boost of about 5 % ,but you can obtain 4 to 7% better EV in certain RPM ranges by tuning the length of your intake ,Versy 's "monster ,my bike and others have done this at very little cost and with good effect, without the problems .The max speed of gases leaving the motor can reach mach-1 ,but the intake is designed not to exceed mach-.5 A blower/turbo may well exceed that limit ,but the motor has to breath in and out ! what can we do to enhance the exhaust ? (not enough!) How effective is a blower /turbo if we're leaving exhaust gases in the cylinder ? how much hP are we really gaining? the RNO Badass hasn't been seen running faster than an idle to get it on stage, let's see it on a Dyno ! let's see it going down a highway! It might not produce as much as the high compression piston /cam that Dave mentioned, and it may overheat, it may be all show and no go! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by springman on 12/22/17 at 07:42:00 Hey SavageBob. I'm not the mechanic in the bunch so all I have to say is "That is one cool bike!" That is really neat that you pulled it off. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by track racer on 12/25/17 at 11:11:09 Hey Savagebob. What a great thread. I can't send a PM yet so I wonder if you could summarize your set up so far. Sure will give me a good starting point. Carb jetting, etc? Sources for parts? What style relief valve did you use and where did you plumb it into the system? many thanks, Steve |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Christof13T on 12/27/17 at 07:23:03 7172677E727D272B130 wrote:
This is a very interesting build that shows a lot of ingenuity and mechanical aptitude... But I have to agree Batz... Without some avenue to keep excess heat from building up in the head I think it will be limited to very mild cruising and very short bursts of mildly spirited riding. I do have to somewhat disagree with you about boosted engines needing lower compression to deal with the heat soak. My 7.3 Powerstroke had a naked 11:1 compression before any boosting from the turbo OR injection cycle. With injection and boost the compression averages 19:1 and rises on demand from there. Granted a diesel will produce much less heat by its very nature... but it is obviously still a concern. The magic number to take my foot out of it in my truck is 1350*f. Any longer than about 12 seconds of sustained heat production at or above that mark usually results in liquefied valve edges that try to pattern weld themselves to the head and busted rings/melted pistons... I still can't imagine inducing the amount of heat soak this supercharger getup has the potential to cause in an assembly so sensitive to overheating. If I were serious about making an attempt to utilize the power attainable by boosting with a freaking supercharger... I would just build a cylinder and head from scratch using a material suitable for the pressure and heat you are likely headed to put on it... Just saying... |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by batman on 12/27/17 at 12:30:24 Well I think we might be talking apples to oranges here, your 7.3 motor is water cooled,big difference! our air cooled motors are cooled by air passing the outside and by the oil moving through the motor . the combustion temp of gasoline runs between 3000 and 5000 degrees , the higher the compression ratio ,the more efficient the fuel burns and the hotter the combustion temp. Using a blower with 5% boost jams about 34% more fuel into the cylinder than normal ,this in itself raises the combustion ratio and therefore the temp of the head sees.By lowering the combustion ratio to begin with you might keep combustion temps at a level that the motor can handle ,while still retaining most of the additional power.Cars didn't see turbos until unleaded gas and combustion ratios were dropped to around 7.5:1 , our bikes start at 8.5 : 1 and I would GUESS that with the boost would run at least 11:1, lowering the ratio to 7.5 :1 would lower this to around 10;1 and we already know that with a larger piston and stage 3 cam we can run about 10.5;1 this may be enough to drop combustion temp to a level that could be sustained at steady highway speeds .The easiest way I can think of to do this is use a thicker base gasket on the cylinder ,making the compression chamber slightly larger,if you have enough cam chain stretch to have used a Vercy tensioner 's second hole, you might just need to move it back to the first hole. An oil cooler on our bike seems a waste of time to me as we have low oil pressure to begin with and splitting the flow ,or sending it through additional piping and a cooler would drop it even more, and our electrical system might not be up to driving a fan for it to make it useful at idle.I admire SavageBob for his efforts, but I don't envy his problems.I wish him good luck and hope that we all can learn from his project. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 12/27/17 at 19:20:42 yeah I think my problems are being overstated a bit. And there are a lot of 'what if's, probably's, maybes and at-a-guess' figures and opinions being thrown around. When I started people said it probably couldn't be done but it looked fairly straight forward to me. I'm not even a mechanic, I'm a graphic designer - I draw pictures on computers for a living ha ha. I don't know what that RNO fella is up to, a show bike I guess. All I know is my bike goes pretty hard, I couldn't say if it's faster than a big-piston job as I haven't ever seen one. But it goes much faster than stock and it was only even intended as a bit of fun. I can pull WOT for as long as I have enough street in front of my around down all day and not experience any heat issues. The only time I got some pinging was when I took it on a sustained highway trip for a couple of hours on a hot day. Eventually, I admit I ended up cruising it home quite mildly as I was concerned with the heat at that point. Yeah I could lower the CR a bit - but I feel like that might negate some of the gains. Yeah an oil cooler doesn't seem like it's the ticket either. I'm thinking maybe pulling some timing out and see how that goes. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 12/27/17 at 19:48:01 4F48594A595350584F3C0 wrote:
Ok well in summary I'm running a little AISIN AMR300 supercharger off a 660cc Subaru Vivio/Pleo. If you do the mini-battery mod located down on the swing arm, there's plenty of room for it. I made up a wee shelf for the mini battery just using the left overs of the OEM battery tray. The hardest part is the drive shaft. I took off the stator cover and had a shop machine out the little access port to accept a 50mm sealed bearing. Which I pressed into it. Then I sketched up some plans for a custom shaft which replaces the stator bolt and mounts through the bearing. Then I made up the supercharge mount out of an old Ford alternator bracket I found. The next hardest part was offsetting the SC and getting it to line up perfectly. The first time I started it simply flung the belt across the room. It has to line up perfectly. I made up a top bracket to secure the SC to the frame. And a tensioner pulley mount etc. I made up the SC cover from an old SOHC cam belt cover I found. I have no idea what actual boost I am running as it seems impossible to tell on a single cylinder. But I'm using a 95mm drive pulley off the crank and the factory AMR pulley on the SC. I'm guessing it might be around 10psi as it doesn't accurate the relief-valve which is set at 15psi. Carb is a CV-40 from a Harley with aftermarket goodies on it including a twin-shot accelerator pump. I'm currently running a 42 Pilot, a 172 Main jet, and the needle is on the second notch. I have an aftermarket adjustment screw turned about 4 turns out. I have a relief valve like this one: https://www.ebay.ie/itm/SHORROCK-C75-C142-supercharger-relief-valve-NEW-/272263102962?hash=item3f642541f2 located on the OEM supercharger manifold, right before the hose connects to the head. There was a obvious place for it to go. I also have a custom 1.5" header and drag pipe with the exhaust ported out. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Armen on 12/28/17 at 03:07:27 What a hoot! Congrats on pulling it off. Wondering about the crank breather? Are you throwing a lot of oil mist out the breather? With the added boost, I'd worry about more ring blowby, and then more pressure in the bottom end. If you are throwing a lot of air/oil out the breather, try running a one way valve of some sort. I've used the flapper valve from a power brake booster on a car with good results. Most PCV valves want to run vertical, so I ran into real estate issues using one. For my Savage, the next move is to mod an aftermarket reed valve breather from a Ducati and run it either from the oil filler cap or the speedo drive hole (not using the speedo drive). I looked at the oil pump to see if there was an easy way to spin it faster or make it pump more, but didn't see any simple way to do that. Gung ho! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by track racer on 12/28/17 at 16:31:08 776572656361666B66040 wrote:
Ok well in summary I'm running a little AISIN AMR300 supercharger off a 660cc Subaru Vivio/Pleo. If you do the mini-battery mod located down on the swing arm, there's plenty of room for it. I made up a wee shelf for the mini battery just using the left overs of the OEM battery tray. The hardest part is the drive shaft. I took off the stator cover and had a shop machine out the little access port to accept a 50mm sealed bearing. Which I pressed into it. Then I sketched up some plans for a custom shaft which replaces the stator bolt and mounts through the bearing. Then I made up the supercharge mount out of an old Ford alternator bracket I found. The next hardest part was offsetting the SC and getting it to line up perfectly. The first time I started it simply flung the belt across the room. It has to line up perfectly. I made up a top bracket to secure the SC to the frame. And a tensioner pulley mount etc. I made up the SC cover from an old SOHC cam belt cover I found. I have no idea what actual boost I am running as it seems impossible to tell on a single cylinder. But I'm using a 95mm drive pulley off the crank and the factory AMR pulley on the SC. I'm guessing it might be around 10psi as it doesn't accurate the relief-valve which is set at 15psi. Carb is a CV-40 from a Harley with aftermarket goodies on it including a twin-shot accelerator pump. I'm currently running a 42 Pilot, a 172 Main jet, and the needle is on the second notch. I have an aftermarket adjustment screw turned about 4 turns out. I have a relief valve like this one: https://www.ebay.ie/itm/SHORROCK-C75-C142-supercharger-relief-valve-NEW-/272263102962?hash=item3f642541f2 located on the OEM supercharger manifold, right before the hose connects to the head. There was a obvious place for it to go. I also have a custom 1.5" header and drag pipe with the exhaust ported out. [/quote] Many thanks Savagebob. That will work. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by track racer on 12/29/17 at 08:35:18 I love this quote from post #15 "I agree that many question the point, the reliability and the hassle. However just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it's not going to be fun trying it out." Hell yeah, forget the hand wringers and congrats on doing it!!!!!! THAT'S the point!!! Other than the twin shot, what other sorts of goodies have you added to the CV? |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 01/15/18 at 17:54:11 5552435043494A4255260 wrote:
Just the Boyesen Twin Shot pump, the EZ-Just mix screw, an aftermarket spring, and a trumpet. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by track racer on 01/18/18 at 04:51:41 Thank you. I hope you consider imitation the sincerest form of flattery. We now have the SC and carb, time to begin. And forgive my ignorance, but an "aftermarket spring" do you mean a slide spring? And where would I get one? The motor is going in a scratch built frame patterned after this 1934 Crocker |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by ohiomoto on 01/18/18 at 07:02:57 That 34 Crocker speedway...Ooooo, so nice! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by savagebob on 01/18/18 at 14:22:13 57504152414B484057240 wrote:
Cool! Yeah man looks awesome. The hardest part is the drive pulley. That took the most work. I did consider making a few drive shafts and modified stator cover plates to supply to people on here if there was enough interest. Oh and yeah I mean slide spring, hundreds of them on eBay for the CV40 Harley carb. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by track racer on 05/08/18 at 04:29:00 It is begun. Supercharged 650 in a 1934 Crocker speedway tribute. Good stuff! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by Dave on 05/08/18 at 04:38:17 4B4C5D4E5D57545C4B380 wrote:
Why don't you start your own build thread.....as it moves along we can then place it in the "Bike Builds" section. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by track racer on 05/08/18 at 11:34:46 Will do. Just trolling to check interest. Not enough done right now to justify a build thread that moves along smartly. We will get a bit ahead then catch up in build threads. Thanks |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by DragBikeMike on 05/09/18 at 12:13:49 Savagebob, my compliments on a really cool ride. You are not only a graphic designer, you are a master mechanic and engineer. The best thing about your project is the unique nature of the bike. You aren't gonna see one like that too often. I am impressed with your tenacity and ingenuity. Even sounds like you could daily drive that scooter. Well done bruddah. |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by flatout on 11/19/20 at 12:50:04 hotdog |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by ohiomoto on 11/19/20 at 17:01:52 13140516050F0C0413600 wrote:
------------------ Waiting to see this! |
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Title: Re: boosting the thumper Post by ohiomoto on 12/14/20 at 06:25:29 This got done, albeit without the boost. Thank you sandmanred for pointing it out. https://revivalcycles.com/homegrown/Steve-Olds-Savage-Speedway http://https://d22uovayqj8stx.cloudfront.net/Articles/1600x1064_1E_Steve_Olds_Speedway_Header.jpg |
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