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RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS (Read 6250 times)
Oldfeller--FSO
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RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
08/08/12 at 17:16:47
 
There is a Tech Thread called RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS




Just ask your questions and make your suggestions here in this thread.  To make it easier on you, here is a copy of the text of the locked Tech Thread.




This thread will be edited as new information becomes available.


Our Savage motorcycle uses an antique flat tappet split rocker system to actuate the valves.  Modern oils, motorcycle and car oils, are now formulated for catalytic converter equipped, fuel injected systems --
oil in general no longer has the levels of ZDDP necessary to support your 1987 designed Suzuki Savage.

There is still debate as to the true minimum needed ZDDP level for getting the best life out of the antique Savage cam and split fork rocker tappet system.  The current debated number is somewhere between 1,200 and 1,850 ppm of ZDDP with only the lesser number being available locally in a oil product without requiring the use of a mail order ZDDP booster (or a mail order oil).   Most of us boost the Rotella products as that is the least cost way to get up to the higher ZDDP levels.

The key thing here is for you to use the recommended high ZDDP oils (and ZDDP booster if you think you need it) as all of the currently bottled locally available "motorcycle oils" have abandoned the old Savage engine and are now formulated to meet the needs of catalytic converter equipped fuel injected motorcycles.  

Not following these recommendations may shorten the service life of your valve train and your valve guides.


RECOMMENDATION FOR LOCAL PURCHASE:

1)   JASO MA rated  (we ignore JASO MA2 and JASO MB as they don't really apply to the Savage motorcycle)
2)   Locally available at Advance Auto Parts, Autozone, O'Reilly, or Walmart.
3)   Contain a minimum of 1,200 ppm of ZDDP (or have more)
4)   Contains no moly or other energy star compounds to make your clutch slip
5)   Reasonable cost, less than $8.00 a quart for the dino products and less than $12 a quart for the synthetic products.
6)  A history of successful list use in the Savage motorcycle.

So far the Recommended list for local purchase stands at:

                     (pricing comes from Walmart)


Dino        -- Rotella T Triple Protection 15W40             $12.99 a gallon  
                                                                            ($3.25 a quart)

Synthetic -- Rotella T-6 5W40                                     $21.99 a gallon
                                                                            ($5.50 a quart)


We will add more oils as they become available and prove out by VOA and list testing.



ZDDP Boosters

Since there are so very few suitable oils any more we will also list the Recommended ZDDP boosters that the mgf. recommends for use in wet clutch motorcycle engines.   Most of these wet clutch friendly ZDDP boosters will require you to internet order them as they are not stocked locally.  

Please note:  Lucas ZDDP booster which is stocked locally is not recommended by Lucas for use in wet clutch motorcycle engines.  Ditto for Rislone ZDDP booster, Rislone won't recommend it for use in wet clutch motorcycle engines.


       
Redline Break In ZDDP Booster    $14.95 for 16 ounces   Specs are at http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&pcid=1  Free Amazon Prime shipping is at   http://www.amazon.com/Redline-81403-Engine-Break-In-Additive/dp/B00881GELC/re...




Eastwood ZDDP booster (and also their other brand name ZDDPlus).  These appear to be the same product by the same manufacturer, but generally the Eastwood brand name sells a few dollars cheaper and sometimes you can get free shipping on it from Eastwood.  




Check both brand names for the best pricing.

order here       http://www.eastwood.com/ew-zddp-oil-additive-4-oz.html
or here            http://www.amazon.com/ZDDP-Engine-Additive-Zinc-Phosphorus/dp/B003FWUWBM/ref=...
or ZDDPlus      http://www.amazon.com/ZDDPPlus-ZDDP-Engine-Additive-Phosphorus/dp/B002RNBO3U/...



NEW LISTING:   AMAZON.COM PRIME (FREE SHIPPING) OILS)


We realize folks are going to have to get on line to source Savage compatible oils and boosters.  AMAZON.COM has the best prices seen so far,  so we list the appropriate Amazon oils here along with a notation if they are able to be shipped for free under Prime.   We also know this Prime free shipping comes and goes according to whether there is stock on hand at your nearest Amazon owned warehouse, so PLEASE watch your shipping charges as you check out for any unplanned surprises.


IF YOU WANT A REAL "overkill" SUPER-OIL (way way beyond reasonable needs) Redline 10W40 Motorcycle Oil  is $11 a quart here (bought by the case).   This  motorcycle oil whups everybody on ZDDP by like twice over, so don't be looking for a measly mere JASO rating on it.   Bill looks at this red stuff and is filled with angst and longing as it is within our $12 a quart budget and his Klotz is only half the oil this is and it costs even more (and then you have to pay for shipping on top of that).   Specs are here http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=109&pcid=21   Free Amazon Prime shipping is at   http://www.amazon.com/Red-Line-42424-10W40-Motorcycle/dp/B0084DZ08W/ref=sr_1_...




To save yourself hassles, please carry all questions to the following Rubber Side Down thread called "RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS".  
This tread remains locked until edited by a moderator.

(link follows)    http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344471408/0
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« Last Edit: 08/18/16 at 11:42:49 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #1 - 08/08/12 at 18:29:52
 
Golden 4 Semi-Synthetic 10w 40 has 1800ppm
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #2 - 08/08/12 at 18:36:45
 
We also must remember that true "racing oil" usually has little in the way of additives, because racing engines are torn down and rebuilt between races. The oil only has to last for one race, not for months of street use. In short, "racing oil" isn't really suitable for street use.
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Eschew obfuscation.

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #3 - 08/08/12 at 18:47:55
 
Greg wrote on 08/08/12 at 18:29:52:
Golden 4 Semi-Synthetic 10w 40 has 1800ppm


Fails rule #1, rule #2 and rule #6       Golden4  is a semi-synthetic four cycle motorcycle oil (non-JASO rated ??) that is available from Amazon for $8.99 plus shipping.

http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Spectro-4-Semi-Synthetic-10W-40/dp/B0039OSHZE


HERE'S THE INFO FROM SPECTRO

Technical Knowledge

Welcome to SPECTRO'S Goldenmotorguard.com

At 1,800 parts per million, Motor-Guard has more than two times as much ZDDP as most available oils!
(Not for use with catalytic-equipped vehicles.)
Spectro Motor-Guard 4 Petroleum Lubricant is available in SAE 30, 10w40 and 20w50 viscosity, and contains superior anti-wear zinc and phosphorus additive packages for exceptional levels of protection, especially important in the high stress conditions of racing.
Spectro Golden Motor-Guard Semi-Synthetic High Performance Engine Lubricant combines our finest grade mineral oils with Group IV PAOs to provide higher shear stability and exceptional durability. This product also provides phosphorus, and is offered in viscosity of 10w40, and 20w50.

About Spectro
Spectro products span the full range of full-synthetic, semi-synthetic and petroleum lubricants for all classes of “powersports” engine and transmission applications. The Spectro line also includes a wide range of suspension fluids, fork oils, brake fluids, coolant, chain lubes/waxes, filter cleaners and oils, and protection/appearance products. Spectro Motor-Guard products are sold exclusively through certified Spectro retailers in the United States, as well as through the Internet.

Proudly Made In The U.S.A. Since 1966

Spectro Oils of America
993 Federal Road Brookfield, CT 06804
www.goldenmotorguard.com
800.243.8645
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« Last Edit: 08/08/12 at 21:48:03 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #4 - 08/08/12 at 20:32:30
 
Wouldn't hurt to add to table of contents with links! Wink
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #5 - 08/08/12 at 21:22:47
 

If you go to the tech thread it leads you here -- it is already linked and indexed.
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #6 - 08/09/12 at 07:17:50
 
Our independent "research" is clear: use Rotella or your engine is doomed. [sarcasm]

Thanks for making it easy to choose.

Time to buy stock in Shell [more sarcasm]


(politics deleted by OF)
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« Last Edit: 08/09/12 at 11:23:19 by Oldfeller--FSO »  
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #7 - 08/09/12 at 09:50:53
 
Not sure if this is the proper place to post( if not pleasse delete)

Per the Redline web site, Oriely is a retail chain that stocks thier products.  I went to the local Orieley and and in-deed they do sell Redline products but not all products and not every store will stock the same mix of products.
The salemans was very nice and offered to buy a case of the Engine break in if I would supply him with the part number. Because i wanted something "right now" he offered some "Competition Cams" break in oil @ $18 ... but there was zero info on the container to make an informed decision. This was left over from a local engine builder. I then did buy some "Rislone Engine oil Supplement".  This is a normal stock item at all Oriely stores. Cost was $12.

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #8 - 08/09/12 at 09:57:53
 
How about Mobil 1 V-twin synthetic from Auto Zone: http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Mobil-1-qt-SAE-20W-50-V-Twin-ful...

I've been using 20w-50 in my '06 since it was new.  The web site says it's $10.99 per quart but I'm pretty sure I got it for about $9 last time since it was on sale.
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #9 - 08/09/12 at 10:31:23
 
sjaskow - FSO wrote on 08/09/12 at 09:57:53:
How about Mobil 1 V-twin synthetic from Auto Zone: http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Mobil-1-qt-SAE-20W-50-V-Twin-ful...

I've been using 20w-50 in my '06 since it was new.  The web site says it's $10.99 per quart but I'm pretty sure I got it for about $9 last time since it was on sale.


This oil has been involved in quite a bit of controversy for the addition of moly and other forms of energy star compounds since it first came out.   Spec'd for Harley, it was intended for a dry sump separate from the clutch gearcase so Mobil 1 felt free to add in "friction fighters".

It is claimed to be reformulated twice now to remove these energy star compounds, but BITOG keeps finding them (at lesser levels) every time somebody does a VOA.

Refer to discussions starting here, your oil was going to be listed but it got cut for energy star additives even before it got cut again for being reformulated yet again in just the last few weeks to MA-2.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1343699410/105

We have hopes that Mobil 1 will swing back to reality for Harley as that is a BIG market and we hope since Harley does not use a cat converter they will keep enough ZDDP to support our engine.  The energy star stuff in the oil is still a rub since Mobil 1 likes to put it into the Harley oils due to the separate sump.

We will see when the new packaging and JASO spec'd stuff actually grows a VOA or two.
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #10 - 08/09/12 at 10:34:22
 
OF ,does Rotella T-6 have enough zddp in it ,or do we have to add some?
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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #11 - 08/09/12 at 10:55:08
 
rl153 wrote on 08/09/12 at 10:34:22:
OF ,does Rotella T-6 have enough zddp in it ,or do we have to add some?


Which ZDDP number do you believe in?   At 1,200 ppm it has enough as is, if you think the 1,500 number is correct you need a mild bump from a supplement.  watch out, SAE N is real now and the amount of ZDDP has dropped again -- now the answer is "ya gotta bump them all".

I bought my first bottle of RedLine Breakin ZDDP supplement when I put my Web Cam in -- Web wanted 1,800 ppm during the 500 mile break in so I provided it.  That took like a quarter bottle to do which was a lot of booster, I probably went sailing past the 1,800 req'd.  

Simply bumping to 1,500 ppm would take a jigger shot (1 oz) or a Nyquil cap full.  

Why is RedLine ZDDP booster on the list? --- years of history of use in the Savage engine with no ill effects on clutch, etc.   Other brands will be used and more experience will be collected with other kinds.   Frankly, I am surprised that Lucas won't recommend their break in supplement for wet clutch motorcycles, and I wonder what strange things are in it to prompt this action on their part.  

Lucas and all the others use a dino oil as their supplement carrier oil, Redline is the only one I am aware of that uses a synthetic oil as their supplement carrier oil (which is why I started using it as I use synthetic oils in every vehicle I own).

Face it, until this oil mess sorts itself out and we get a spec and name brands that CONSISTENTLY support our old bike engine we are all likely going to keep a bottle of ZDDP booster around.

We trusted the JASO to separate suitable Savage oils from the car oils (which were not suitable at all and have gotten less so) but now JASO isn't making that separation any more so we have to do it ourselves.

And let's talk about them Rotella products -- yeah I supported them in the oil wars in the past so I am seen as a partisan.   Big deal, get over it.  Right now the best thing about Rotella is it isn't changing on us all the time. It is the only major locally available brand that has remained stable through this last past upheaval in JASO standards and it isn't going to dump off it's ZDDP levels at a whim.   If it had, it wouldn't be on the list right now either.
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« Last Edit: 08/18/16 at 11:46:31 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #12 - 08/09/12 at 11:36:41
 
Pine wrote on 08/09/12 at 09:50:53:
Not sure if this is the proper place to post( if not pleasse delete)

Per the Redline web site, Oriely is a retail chain that stocks thier products.  I went to the local Orieley and and in-deed they do sell Redline products but not all products and not every store will stock the same mix of products.
The salemans was very nice and offered to buy a case of the Engine break in if I would supply him with the part number. Because i wanted something "right now" he offered some "Competition Cams" break in oil @ $18 ... but there was zero info on the container to make an informed decision. This was left over from a local engine builder. I then did buy some "Rislone Engine oil Supplement".  This is a normal stock item at all Oriely stores. Cost was $12.



If Redline is available locally at your local O'Reilly, it is worth checking out.  Redline uses big ZDDP numbers in each of their products, with the downside being that the majority of their products are RACING car products so please be careful which one you pick.   They do make motorcycle oil, but the likelyhood of that being at your local O'Reilly is pretty slim unless you make a deal with your local manager to stock it.

Like many of the specialty oils, you can order it from Amazon by the case.   It is pricey, but good -- similar to Royal Purple or Amisol in price at retail (a lot less in Amazon's reality though) but it is very pure in intention similar to Klotz (same color as a matter of fact).   I would not be surprised if similar base oils are used by the two companies.  

(and yes Bill, I just maybe mighta said something nice about Klotz in a sideways manner, but Redline publishes their contents, additives and ZDDP levels openly and Klotz doesn't)


http://www.amazon.com/Red-Line-42424-10W40-Motorcycle/dp/B0084DZ08W/ref=sr_1_...



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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #13 - 08/09/12 at 12:00:58
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 08/09/12 at 11:36:41:
Pine wrote on 08/09/12 at 09:50:53:
Not sure if this is the proper place to post( if not pleasse delete)

Per the Redline web site, Oriely is a retail chain that stocks thier products.  I went to the local Orieley and and in-deed they do sell Redline products but not all products and not every store will stock the same mix of products.
The salemans was very nice and offered to buy a case of the Engine break in if I would supply him with the part number. Because i wanted something "right now" he offered some "Competition Cams" break in oil @ $18 ... but there was zero info on the container to make an informed decision. This was left over from a local engine builder. I then did buy some "Rislone Engine oil Supplement".  This is a normal stock item at all Oriely stores. Cost was $12.



If Redline is available locally at your local O'Reilly, it is worth checking out.  Redline uses big ZDDP numbers in each of their products, with the downside being that the majority of their products are RACING car products so please be careful which one you pick.   They do make motorcycle oil, but the likelyhood of that being at your local O'Reilly is pretty slim unless you make a deal with your local manager to stock it.

Like many of the specialty oils, you can order it from Amazon by the case.   It is pricey, but good -- similar to Royal Purple or Amisol in price at retail (a lot less in Amazon's reality though) but it is very pure in intention similar to Klotz (same color as a matter of fact).   I would not be surprised if similar base oils are used by the two companies.  

(and yes Bill, I just maybe mighta said something nice about Klotz in a sideways manner, but Redline publishes their contents, additives and ZDDP levels openly and Klotz doesn't)


http://www.amazon.com/Red-Line-42424-10W40-Motorcycle/dp/B0084DZ08W/ref=sr_1_...


To be clear: the offer was for the local retail chain to purchase a case of RedLine Engine Break in... thus it woud be "in stock" for me. I have not looked at buying any other Redline product.

ALthough I have already added a "smidge" of the product : Rislone Engine Oil supplement: I think I should retract it as an additive for our Savage.  From thier FAQ for the product:

How is Rislone Engine Oil Supplement with Zinc Treatment different than break in additives?
Break in additives contain extremely high concentrations of ZDDP and are only designed to be left in the engine for a short period of time. Many of these additives don’t contain detergents or other lubricity additives important to keeping your engine clean and lubricated for thousands of miles. Rislone Engine Oil Supplement with Zinc Treatment not only contains the correct amount of ZDDP, but also the other additives important to protecting your engine. Do not use as a break in additive.

My take on the above is that the Rislone product will contain other "slickeners" that would preclude it from being a useful product for our wet clutches.

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Re: RECOMMENDED OILS AND BOOSTERS
Reply #14 - 08/09/12 at 12:02:34
 
I just bought some redline to add to my Rot T-6. It can't do any harm to add 1 oz to the oil ,can it?
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