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Beginners Welding Suggestions (Read 867 times)
runwyrlph
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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #15 - 08/11/11 at 20:25:43
 
I too have a 115V wire feed welder without gas (Hobart 125EZ) Plugs into any outlet. It  welds up to 3/16 in 1 pass which i would say is adequate.

I built a go kart for the kids with it and several repairs on mufflers and cat. convertors that probably paid for the welder in savings.

 In my opinion it's a lot easier than a stick welder. (Which I don't own but have used a limited amount)

If you're able to take a class I'd say do it and learn the right way!  (I can usually make it work, but I'd really love to weld well!)
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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #16 - 08/12/11 at 05:58:06
 
Like I said before,.....an Arc welder still has its place, and will probably be around forever......just for those places.

1- even in a shop w/ the doors open on a windy day.
2- on a large project where it is not practical to always have the mig wire feeder w/in 15 feet of the work project. (we'll exclude spool guns)
3- not the easiest to use, but still the most economical in home use.
4- in a gross non experienced situation, and IMO, there is more chance of a mig weld failing than a 6011 arc weld.

And last but not least,.......
If I was in a contest to weld up a 10-12 ga fuel tank, (all corner to corner welds) w/ the least amount of leaks,.....and had a choice, I'd be grabbin for the (6011) arc welder in a heartbeat  Wink
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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #17 - 08/20/11 at 01:45:19
 
Wow, a lot of great responses here. Thanks Routy, scubachef, Markusublime, justin_o_guy2, WD, Boule’tard, Kaishaku, engineer, Max_Morley & runwyrlph for your feedback and suggestions.

I've been busy, and I wanted to reread everything here before I replied properly.

Question: How thick is the ls650 frame steel?

I would love to be able to weld things to a frame. But I would also like to weld things like my own custom license plate mount, for example. I don't plan on chopping my frame at this time, but I would love to be able to do that if I wanted to.

Sounds like Mig welding is what I want for now. Also sounds like I'll want a 230 volt machine. But I need a dedicated outlet for this, so I'd have to hire a electrician to come in and install one.

I like the idea of not having to have tanks of gas around, at least as a starting point. So that means flux core.

WD, it sounds like I could get by with a 115v fluxcore, at least to start, for 3/8" material. That could work for me maybe to learn on.

Also, WD, thanks for that awesome invite, you are generous! I have some relatives in East TN, so if I ever get that way again, I might have to take you up on that offer.  Forge welding sounds impressive! Steel melting into steel to form a solid bond, awesome.

Justin, great suggestion about the rods and grinder discs.

Also, great advice about getting a class. I'm sure this would be the best way. I'll see what I can find locally here. I've also thought about going to the local muffler shop and seeing if I could pay those guys to give me a crash course!

I imagine there are special shops that sell all the metal I would need, like tubes, sheets, plates, etc. Maybe from the same place that sells the rods?
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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #18 - 08/20/11 at 04:33:50
 
Quote:
it sounds like I could get by with a 115v fluxcore, at least to start, for 3/8" material.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope you meant 3/16" as mentioned above. And in most cases, even 3/16" material is above and beyond the capacity of any 120v welding machine.....trust me !  

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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #19 - 08/20/11 at 06:58:09
 
I am a welder, been welding since I was a kid, probably struck my first arc when I was ten,,don't want to reveal my age, so I guess I have been welding for about 40 years.

May I suggest the book here, New lessons in arc welding for $10
https://ssl.lincolnelectric.com/foundation/store.asp?PID=16&cat=8

For a novice, this book is the best resource on welding that I have found.

The certification requirement on 18 gauge stee which is about .050 inches thick, or less than a 1/16 of an inch thick, is 15 volts at 100 amps.
That is 1500 watts. 1500 watts is about all a 120 volt welder will put out at the weld.

I had a small lincoln welder that only ran on 120 volts and used flux core wire on 14 gauge steel, .0785 inches thick. It was barely capable of welding this steel in the flat position with adequate penetration and the welding speed was extremely slow. I had to run a long extension cord, I used 10 gauge wire in this cord. Probably about 50 feet. Maybe it was a hundred foot cord.

I currently own,
A 250 amp lincoln mig
A 210 amp horbart mig
A 180 amp lincoln mig
A harbor freight 165 amp mig, never used
A lincoln 225 amp stick
A harbor freight 165 amp stick/ scratch start tig

All of the above welders are 220 volts.
None of these welders are capable of welding 1/2 inch steel in a single pass and meet code requirements.

I like the harbor freight welder, weighs little, very small, stick welds extremely well, dc for the thin stuff, I think I paid about 200 hundred for it with a discount coupon on sale.

The welder I use most at home, the lincoln 225 amp stick using 6011 rods. I can weld 16 gauge mild steel using 3/32 rods with this welder. Most people probably could not weld this thin of steel with this welder, remember, I have been doing this for a long time. The harbor freight welder gets little use mostly because I forget I have it until after I get the job done.

Harbor freight has a stick welder, 115 volt, I think about 80 dollars, mosfet driven that should be able to weld 1/8 inch steel using 3/32 6011 rods. When the transformer is replaced with power transistors the overall efficiency of the welder goes up, from about 60% to 80%. The forum "welding web" has a discussion on these welders.

These little mosfet driven stick welders are extemely smooth operators, in my opinion. I do not think that they are any harder to learn on than a good mig welder. I don't see how you can go wrong with this welder.

Most steel contains maganese. Most welding rods contain maganese. Maganese is a very important alloy in most steels.
Once, maganese, because of the good properties in puts into steel, was added in much larger amounts than it is now. These high maganese steel caused severe health problems to welders, 60, 70, 80 years ago. That is no longer the case.
Open your garage door, that is plenty of ventilation.
Weld with your head out of the fume plume. New welders often stick their head real close to the weld. Keep your arms extended when welding, keep your head back away from the weld, you will weld better and have more control of your weld this way.

Ask questions, I'll answer them.

I'll discuss helmets next after I figure out how to post pictures





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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #20 - 08/20/11 at 07:36:37
 
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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #21 - 08/20/11 at 08:47:54
 

Helmets,
A lot of cheap helmets have plastic lenses. They don't work well. Visibility is quite poor with these.
Look for a helmet with glass lenses.
The headgear on cheap helmets is well cheap.
The harbor freight helmet that has autodarkening is barely adequate for a helmet. The visisbility is poor compared to more expensive helmets. The lowest cost autodarkening helmet that I have found is this hobart helmet

http://www.tractorsupply.com/welding-metalworking/welding-helmets-accessories...

I have tried all of the less expensive autodarkening helmets, this is the cheapest auto helmet that has the clarity necessary to make good welds.
It also has accesories like magnifying lenses, low cost replacement headgear, available at tractor supply and northern tools.

Visisbility is very important when welding, you will struggle with a cheap helmet.

Helmet care. Always store your helmet in a bag. Don't leave it out to where dirt and grime build up on the lenses.

For occasional welding, a standard helmet that has good headgear and glass lenses is fine, buy lenses in grade 9 thru 12, should be sufficient for home welding. Probably about 50 dollars from a welding supply store.

The lense is protected on both sides by polycarbonate covers, these get dirty. It is cheaper to cut your covers from lexan, available from home depot or lowes. Buy the thinnest they have, and cut new covers with a snips as needed. Polycarbonate, while more clear than lexan, does not cut well, it cracks and chips easily.

The helmet is most important piece of welding equipment you can buy.
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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #22 - 08/20/11 at 09:26:52
 
Rods and welding wire,,, for the home shop

Stick welding rods
6010 a dc only rod, do it all rod, deeper penetrating, used professionally,probably the most common rod in use.

6011, same as 6010, ac or dc. Probably the most common rod used at home and ranch.

6013, designed for ac use, designed to weld thinner steel. Uses a higher voltage than the equivelant 6010 or 6011. This allows an ac welder to maintain an arc on the low voltage welding of thinner steels. Works on dc also.

7014, ac/dc, nice rod, does not have deoxidizers, made for new clean steel only. Very nice looking welds, strikes easily, medium slag, which, on sound welds, cleans very easily. Nice, nice nice.

7018, professional rod. Generally, I would not consider this a home use rod. ac/dc.  Available in an ac version. Whats up with that, the 7018 has always been an ac rod. On high current welding, arc blow is a problem, ac eliminates arc blow.
On low currents, does not strike an arc well, harder to restrike.

Once the sealed package is opened, must be kept in a rod oven. In humid weather, the rods last about a day, throw them away.

The 7018 is sesigned for high tensile, thick steel, well beyond the scope of the home welder.

Thin high tensile steels can be welded with the 6010, or 7010, or 8010,
Car chassis are often thin high strenth steel, driveshafts etc.

The 6010, 6011, 6013, 7014, in average climates, do not need any special storage consideration, standard rod holders or pvc pipe with caps is sufficient. These rods need a moisture content to perform. 6010, 6011 and 6013 should not, except in unusual circumstances, be dried. If these rods get rusty, throw them away. If the rods covering looks good, and the rod is not rusty, 20 year old rods are fine.

For home use, I use lincoln rods, they perform better than most, I buy them at home depot lowes etc.

Rods from harbor frieght are downright, the absolute worst rods I have ever used.

Hobart rods from Northern tools and tractor supply, they're alright, I guess I prefer the lincolns for home use.

Mig wire.
Flux core, Fabshield, nothin better for mild steel.
Bare wire, Lincoln L56, feeds better, no splatter, cost more, really a premium wire, nozzle stays clean, contact tip lasts forever. I think it is L56, i'll look that up


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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #23 - 08/20/11 at 10:34:40
 
http://www.harborfreight.com/240-volt-inverter-arc-tig-welder-66787.html

I was happy with the performance of my harbor freight welder, the 220 volt stick/tig welder, on stick welding. It was not so good with scratch start tig. Harbor freight no longer carries the welder that I own, it was replaced with the above welder.

I purchased the above welder because it advertises lift start tig. Well, it did'nt lift start to well, and, it did not stick weld very well because it only has the lift start mode to start a stick weld, I returned it. I do not recommend the above welder.

http://www.harborfreight.com/interests/welding-and-welders/80-amp-inverter-ar...

This is the welder that gets a lot of discussion on the welding web. 120 volts. 27 volts at 80 amps. DC nice
Now the math
20 amp circuit, lets call it 115 volts, the outlet is right next to the panel box,,,should supply about 2300 watts,,no extension cord mind you.

27 volts times 80 amps,,,2160 watts,,
2160/2300 is 94% efficient.

I don't know of any power transistors that are that efficient, but you know, I don't really keep up with the latest in transistors.

Cost a little more than I thought, about 140 dollars,,,but will run on 120 volts.

What is the feasibility of running a 220 volt circuit to your welding area? Depending on your panel box, 220 volt breakers vary in price, I am not an electrician, but I just added a 30 amp 220 breaker to my box, the breaker was 45 dollars. 10 foot of 8 gauge wire was I think 3.30 a foot. The recepticle, box and cover, oh what was it, about another 30 dollars.

Not long ago, I made up another 50 foot 6 gauge extension cord for my biggest welder, the cost was well over a hundred dollars I believe.

For someone who does'nt weld much, and does'nt want to spend a lot on getting into welding, a 120 volt inverter based welder starts to make a lot of cents to me. Don't expect to weld 1/4 inch plate, but with practice, the 10 dollar lincoln  welding book, you should be able to handle up to a quarter inch steel with proper preperation and the proper rods using the 140 dollar welder mentioned above.
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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #24 - 08/20/11 at 15:31:18
 
Stick welders, general information
dc vs ac


Right on the very end of the work bench next to the garage door is the 220 volt harbor freight stick/tig welder, the little black box with some cables coming out of it. About the size of a small shoe box.

Why dc. Direct current welding, the arc is continous, allowing one to use lower voltages and currents, smaller rods, I use 1/16 rods, can weld the thin stuff, thinner than the low cost tig welders that run about 1200 dollars, With the 1/16 7014 rods from tractor supply I can weld 22 gauge, about a 32nd of an inch, steel. The steel needs to be clean, clean clean when using a 7014. You also need a lot of practice to weld these thin steels. They require very good fitment, careful tacking, and a real steady continous absolutely straight weld, good rod angle. This takes practice. And a good helmet with very good optical quality.

Why ac
Well, once it was considered the lowest cost home welding system, still is pretty cheap

With a 6013, a lot of practice, a lot of practice, and I emphasize practice, 16 gauge, about 1/16 inch steel, is its lowest range, Because the current reverses every cycle, 60 times a second, the arc extinguishes each current reversal and re-establishes twice each cycle.
14 gauge welds fine with this welder using 3/32 rods with practice. I have used 5/32 rods with no problem, single pass on 3/8 structural grades. It will put out the rated amps.
Here is a weld using a 1/8" 6013


The finished product



This bike was built using a combination of 14 gauge tube thru 1/4 steel plate using an ac lincoln 225 amp welder.
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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #25 - 08/21/11 at 07:49:06
 
Wow that's a lot of good info Johansson, thanks for sharing!  Smiley
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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #26 - 08/21/11 at 08:11:13
 
Mig welders
I look for two things in a mig welder.
I look for a continously variable voltage control. I avoid mig welders with tapped transformers.
I look for a welding lead that uses tweco tips. Tweco tips are available just about everywhere, Home Depot, Lowes, Old fashioned hardware stores,, super convenient.
These two welders have both, the 140c is a 120 volt machine, 600 dollars
The 180c is 700 dollars
The specs
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/en_US/Products/K2471-1/e723.pdf
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/en_US/Products/K2473-1/e724.pdf
The lincoln welders in this class have a much better arc characteristic than less expensive mig welders. They also have a better weld bead and welding characteristic than the similar priced hobart handlers.
I bought the 180c a couple of years ago to replace my 3rd 180 amp hobart handler in 15 years. Now I assure you, I am not dissing the Hobart Handler, I abused the hobarts.
Read the specs on the above welders, both should be adequate for a home shop. Both will weld 24 gauge steel,,, thats about .024 thick. Very light steel. To weld this light of steel with tig you will spend 3 times as much minimum.
Leads,
Magnum leads are readily available, I buy the 15 foot leads for about 125 dollars complete with gun, liner, nozzle and tips delivered to my door. I bump up from the stock 100 amp lead to the 200 amp lead and set up the lead with a liner for .035 wire. I use the stock lead for .025 wire. The 200 amp lead uses heavier contact tips, diffusers and nozzles. The shorter 10 foot lead feeds the thinner wire a lot better, uses a much smaller nozzle for better visibility.

I will just show you pictures of my other 2 mig welders, I won't discuss them much.

The above welder is a 200 amp Hobart Ironman 210. Been a good welder. I believe in the picture it is set up with a 300 amp lead, the lead rolled up on the welder is off of something else,,looks like a light magnum lead with a sheath from a plasma cutter over it,,
I probably got this about 10 years ago, never been repaired, used mostly for heavy steel. This is a tapped transformer, no variable voltage control.  These tapped transformers don't work as well for light steel.

This is a premium welder. Will weld down to 5 volts, I can run .020 wire thru it. I believe I got this welder in 95. Has a circuit board that I added an aluminum welding module to. You change the board to weld aluminum with some dip switches. Welds aluminum very well without the use of a spool gun. Today, this welder would probably cost between 2 and 3 thousand, I have always been a little unhappy with the drive system, should have put a wire feeder on it years ago,,I go through wire feed speed potentiometers about every couple of years.  Lot of bad reviews on this welder. I use a 350p miller mig at work,, this welder is better...the miller welders at work have bells and whistles, pulse etc. modified programs for aluminum etc. which is nice, but on general steel and aluminum welding, this lincoln is better.

Next, gasses and the care of welding wire
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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #27 - 08/21/11 at 09:59:48
 
You are welcome Boule'tard
A little info on aluminum welding from Miller
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/index.php?page=articles10.html

I can buy a harbor freight stick welder for 140, a 10 dollar book from lincoln, a 50 dollar hood from a welding supplier,,run a 20 amp breaker to my garage,,50 dollars maybe a 100, I'd use 10 gauge wire,,,I'll need a good 10 gauge extension cord, short one,,30 dollars
I'd say you can get into welding for about 400 dollars and weld 16 gauge to 10 gauge,,,1/16 to 1/8 inch steel...and that should be enough for most people.
Should get a good fire extinguisher, maybe get 2 extinguishers.

Heavier steel, get a 220 volt ac stick welder for about 300 dollars
400 dollars will buy a 220 volt ac/dc stick welder,,weld very heavy steel, 1/2 inch and stuff, run an extension cord to your electric range or a dryer.

I had a 400 dollar lincoln mig welder from Home Depot, this was 15 years ago, I could'nt weld 1/8" steel with it. Flux core, bare wire, 25/75 argon blend,,,It would not penetrate..I'm in Texas, welding in a 100 degree shop,,

Gas bottles,,
Small bottles,, about $100, 40 cf cubic foot,
Medium bottles, about $200, 80 cf
Large bottles, to big for home use, i think they are 125 cf I don't remember what I paid for em,

I think last time I exchanged my medium bottles for argon 25/75 for around 25 dollars,,30 to 35 for straight argon,,

You don't get to keep your bottles, you exchange them. bottles don't expire, the supplier keeps them up to date,,don't fall into getting billed for an out of date bottle,,go somewhere else. Bottles are tested and rebuilt by the supplier.

For lighter steel, use a 90/10 argon mix

If you get home and the bottle is empty, this happens a lot, go back to your supplier, they will happily exchange it, for a full one.

Wire for mig.
Buy premium wire, don't buy the box that says premium, ask your supplier for the really good wire,,a 30 lb roll of good wire is 30 dollars, a really good wire will cost 40 dollars,,wire prices are really jumpin around right now,,expect to pay more than this.

If the wire is dull, has spots, or, in the worst case, actually looks rusty, Return it. Wire comes from overseas, gets wet in these container ships. Make sure the box looks spotless. If the box is old looking and looks like it has been damp, don't buy it, go somewhere else.T

Buy er70s-6.  That stands for 70,000 lb tensile, and the 6 is for the deoxidizer,,For the best welds, the millscale should be ground off, all oil and rust should also be removed.

A 10 lb box of wire cost as much as a 30 lb box.

If you don't weld much, store your wire inside where it won't get rusty.

Rusty wire will ruin the liner, clogs the contact tip,, liners are about 20 bucks, tips about a dollar.  Makes it real frustrating to weld.






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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #28 - 08/21/11 at 12:29:11
 
I bought a Harbor reight welder,, worked like crap,, came apart inside a few times, had to go in & put the thing back together, last time I sprayed some lithium grease on the parts that slide inside each other to adjust the amps,, man, it welded a lot beter after that,, IDK why,, but then, I didtch the HF rods & got some rods from a welder supply shop., & then it was even better,, & those grinding disks from HF??? Dont use them,, they cost almost nothing per disk, but they stink( as in smell bad) & sling chunks at ya, & wear out real fast, but quality ( I use Norton) disks, grind longer, be more comfortable & be safer & spend less $$.
Thanks JoHanssen for the tips,
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Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Reply #29 - 08/21/11 at 21:05:07
 
Johansson, thanks for your amazing posts, very generous of you to take the time to share all that info with everyone here. Awesome!

I'm still reading it and digesting it. I'll be rereading this thread multiple times...
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