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Message started by mmosel on 08/10/11 at 21:21:04

Title: Beginners Welding Suggestions
Post by mmosel on 08/10/11 at 21:21:04

This is a slightly generic topic, so maybe it should be in the Cafe as opposed to Rubber Side Down. Please move if necessary.

Ok. I've always wanted to learn to weld. I'd like to be able to learn at home. I'm sure it's better if I took a class or whatever, but I'm a rebel.

So, what would be the way to go? Something affordable, but not super cheapo either. I just want to learn to do some basic steel to steel welding. Not sure if I'd need anything beyond that. Does stainless steel weld the same as simple steel?

I would love to get people's input here on this subject. Might also be good for other people on the forum who have never welded before.

Finally, any idea on the price for enough stuff to get started? As in 100, 200, 300 bucks? Do I want an Arc Welder machine? What is a flux wire welder and how is it different from the Arc machine?

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Routy on 08/10/11 at 21:54:10

I know mild steel welding quite well,....done it all my life.
Arc welding in a shop is almost obsolete anymore, but they still have their place.
Mig welding is easier, and cleaner.
I would recommend a smaller Mig machine of 130 amp mininum, which will run on 220-240 volts. IMO, don't buy a 115 volt Mig machine, or you will be limited to ......like 1/8" material.

A HF machine (china) Mig welder may be ok,.....I haven't used one, but I would recommend a Hobart, Miller or Lincoln,....all in the smallest 230 volt will do you a good job on 1/4 - 1/2" steel.

Mig machines can be run 2 ways, either using solid steel wire w/ a bottle of Argon sheilding gas mixing w/ the arc, or using flux core wire.
Using bottled gas is much cleaner than the flux core, but both do better than an Arc welder.

I myself have a 135 amp Lincoln w/ Argon gas, cost around $500.
The china machines are less than 1/2 that price.

Hope this helped you a little

On edit, any good Mig machine can be converted to weld stainless steel just by changing your roll of wire to SS. The gas should be changed too, but doesn't have to be.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by scubachef on 08/10/11 at 22:24:35

What is it you would like to weld? Would you like to do work to your frame or sheetmetal work like sidepanels, tanks etc? That will play a part in the machines you might want to look into. I do a lot of sheetmetal work on cars and have a small lincoln MIG that I picked up cheap that I use for that. Small and easy to wheel around the garage so it is perfect for that application but it isn't going to work for materials much thicker. I have a separate machine for welding frames, suspension components, etc. If you don't want to be welding thicker materials a small machine that you can pick up at home depot or lowes will work great. It will be between 400 and 500 for something like this. Also take into consideration that if you want to do thicker materials it will likely mean a dedicated 220v outlet...can't just plug your welder into the washing machine plug! MIG is easy to learn. Don't skimp on the helmet, helmets are definitely "you get what you pay for". Best of luck!!

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Markusublime on 08/10/11 at 23:07:41

Your best bet for just learning (in my opinion) would be to start with mig welding.if you have a harbor freight tool store close by you can buy a flux core welder for about $100.a flux core differs from a standard gas shielded mig welder in that it uses a core in the wire that releases the shielding gas as the wire burns.I recommend it because you won't have to worry about having compressed gas cylinders around.start with some light duty welding to get the feel for it,when holding the gun try using your free hand as a base to steady your welding hand with.it's all about keeping the gap between the tip of the welder and the metal consistent along with a steady speed as you move along the weld.arc welding with welding rods (to me) is trickier in that you not only have to keep the arc gap and speed consistent but you also have to move the rod down as it melts away.Start by going to http://www.millerwelds.com there's a ton of useful info to get you started.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/10/11 at 23:19:52

Look for a used machine built by a good company. Make sure it Will weld,,

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by pipat4 on 08/11/11 at 02:44:06

Thanks for any new information.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by WD on 08/11/11 at 04:02:18

I've got two 115v fluxcores,both rated for up to 3/8" material. I've had one for 14 years, still works fine. The other is still in the never opened box as a spare. The one I use is a Walmart Campbell Hausfeld made in Italy,not sure on the other one's country of origin, but if it is China it will never be out of the box until it goes to someone else.

Flux wire makes a mess, lots of spatter. But it works fine for what I use it for, repairing cracks in truck beds and implement frames.

If you want to learn the oldest form of welding, come for a visit. I've got tons of steel, plenty of anthracite, just need to get some more borax. Can teach you forge welding. Yep,that kind of work, forge, hammer, anvil... Look at some ancient chain links, there is no seam where the link ends come together.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Boule’tard on 08/11/11 at 06:29:12

I'm happier than a pig in slop with my Miller 211, running gas. It was expensive, but it's got plenty of power and selects the wire feed rate and current for me. Not a whole lot else to screw up.. though I try..

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Routy on 08/11/11 at 06:53:08

363B21383120352630540 wrote:

Boule,
You are way past due for an updated machine !
The latest ones will weld it for you too ! ;D

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Kaishaku on 08/11/11 at 07:29:29

I acquired the $179 Harbor Freight inverter (DC) arc welder a bit ago for small repair projects. I've fixed a few things at work and a part on a friend's motorcycle with it. From what I can tell, shielded metal arc welding is kind of messier and considered more archaic than MIG or TIG, but I specifically purchased this particular welder because it runs on regular household power. No problems so far other than my own skill level.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Boule’tard on 08/11/11 at 11:18:53

4D4258435F594A48404E592B0 wrote:

Boule,
You are way past due for an updated machine !

I know.. but at least the machine I have can get my welds from "embarrassing and dangerous" to just "embarrassing" ;D

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by MrBrownTX on 08/11/11 at 12:18:36

Great question and great answers. I have always wanted to give welding a try also.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/11/11 at 13:02:38

Rods create some serious bad fumes, ventilation is crucial. The $$$ for a darkening hood is not that big & closing the hood alway made me lose my aim,, I suggest, spend the $$.
A MIG needs to be protected from wind, to keep the gas shield around the weld.
How you take care of rods matters, In a sealed tube with dessicants is how I do it.
Cheap rods suck. Go to a welding supply shop & pay for the good ones, steer clear of Harbor Freight rods & Grinder disks,, Buy the good grinder disks, Norton lasts a long time & doesnt disintegrate & sling nasty crap all over me..

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by engineer on 08/11/11 at 18:03:25

I agree with the previous opinions, MIG is the best way to go these days for general purpose welding on steel but keep in mind that inexpensive welders are more difficult to use. I have a friend that does most of my welding for me and he has sold all his welders except one Miller MIG welder. I was a certified welder in my youth and learned in a well equipped company with a variety of different welders. This was a good way to learn, better yet is at a local community college. They usually have quality welders of different types and makes and you will not only develop your skills but preferences for different welders. If you self teach yourself welding you will likely learn to do some things well but you will never know what you have missed.

Stick welding is still effective and you can buy rods of various diameters, materials, and for different weld positions for a wide variety of weld situations. I still keep a stick welder at home for odd jobs, an old Miller. It takes up little space and I don't have to worry about gas cylinders. If I were you I would rather buy a used quality welder than a new import welder. So many companies have folded recently that used welders are going pretty cheap.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Max_Morley on 08/11/11 at 20:00:08

I'd sure check with the local CC or tech school and see what a class for MIG would cost. It is nice to learn with some coaching and use their electricity, gas, wire and steel. Also depending on the course you might learn about some options. I took regular arc welding many years ago and my problem with MIG was wanting the weld to be built up like the coating arc gives. Instructor would come up and look over my shoulder and say faster, faster. Also got a chance to try stainless and aluminum and use a plasma cutter. Spent 2 hours 4 days a week for 11 weeks and know I got my moneys worth of materials. Your Experience May Vary Max

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by runwyrlph on 08/11/11 at 20:25:43

I too have a 115V wire feed welder without gas (Hobart 125EZ) Plugs into any outlet. It welds up to 3/16 in 1 pass which i would say is adequate.

I built a go kart for the kids with it and several repairs on mufflers and cat. convertors that probably paid for the welder in savings.

In my opinion it's a lot easier than a stick welder. (Which I don't own but have used a limited amount)

If you're able to take a class I'd say do it and learn the right way! (I can usually make it work, but I'd really love to weld well!)

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Routy on 08/12/11 at 05:58:06

Like I said before,.....an Arc welder still has its place, and will probably be around forever......just for those places.

1- even in a shop w/ the doors open on a windy day.
2- on a large project where it is not practical to always have the mig wire feeder w/in 15 feet of the work project. (we'll exclude spool guns)
3- not the easiest to use, but still the most economical in home use.
4- in a gross non experienced situation, and IMO, there is more chance of a mig weld failing than a 6011 arc weld.

And last but not least,.......
If I was in a contest to weld up a 10-12 ga fuel tank, (all corner to corner welds) w/ the least amount of leaks,.....and had a choice, I'd be grabbin for the (6011) arc welder in a heartbeat ;)

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by mmosel on 08/20/11 at 01:45:19

Wow, a lot of great responses here. Thanks Routy, scubachef, Markusublime, justin_o_guy2, WD, Boule’tard, Kaishaku, engineer, Max_Morley & runwyrlph for your feedback and suggestions.

I've been busy, and I wanted to reread everything here before I replied properly.

Question: How thick is the ls650 frame steel?

I would love to be able to weld things to a frame. But I would also like to weld things like my own custom license plate mount, for example. I don't plan on chopping my frame at this time, but I would love to be able to do that if I wanted to.

Sounds like Mig welding is what I want for now. Also sounds like I'll want a 230 volt machine. But I need a dedicated outlet for this, so I'd have to hire a electrician to come in and install one.

I like the idea of not having to have tanks of gas around, at least as a starting point. So that means flux core.

WD, it sounds like I could get by with a 115v fluxcore, at least to start, for 3/8" material. That could work for me maybe to learn on.

Also, WD, thanks for that awesome invite, you are generous! I have some relatives in East TN, so if I ever get that way again, I might have to take you up on that offer. Forge welding sounds impressive! Steel melting into steel to form a solid bond, awesome.

Justin, great suggestion about the rods and grinder discs.

Also, great advice about getting a class. I'm sure this would be the best way. I'll see what I can find locally here. I've also thought about going to the local muffler shop and seeing if I could pay those guys to give me a crash course!

I imagine there are special shops that sell all the metal I would need, like tubes, sheets, plates, etc. Maybe from the same place that sells the rods?

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Routy on 08/20/11 at 04:33:50

Quote:
it sounds like I could get by with a 115v fluxcore, at least to start, for 3/8" material.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope you meant 3/16" as mentioned above. And in most cases, even 3/16" material is above and beyond the capacity of any 120v welding machine.....trust me !

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/20/11 at 06:58:09

I am a welder, been welding since I was a kid, probably struck my first arc when I was ten,,don't want to reveal my age, so I guess I have been welding for about 40 years.

May I suggest the book here, New lessons in arc welding for $10
https://ssl.lincolnelectric.com/foundation/store.asp?PID=16&cat=8

For a novice, this book is the best resource on welding that I have found.

The certification requirement on 18 gauge stee which is about .050 inches thick, or less than a 1/16 of an inch thick, is 15 volts at 100 amps.
That is 1500 watts. 1500 watts is about all a 120 volt welder will put out at the weld.

I had a small lincoln welder that only ran on 120 volts and used flux core wire on 14 gauge steel, .0785 inches thick. It was barely capable of welding this steel in the flat position with adequate penetration and the welding speed was extremely slow. I had to run a long extension cord, I used 10 gauge wire in this cord. Probably about 50 feet. Maybe it was a hundred foot cord.

I currently own,
A 250 amp lincoln mig
A 210 amp horbart mig
A 180 amp lincoln mig
A harbor freight 165 amp mig, never used
A lincoln 225 amp stick
A harbor freight 165 amp stick/ scratch start tig

All of the above welders are 220 volts.
None of these welders are capable of welding 1/2 inch steel in a single pass and meet code requirements.

I like the harbor freight welder, weighs little, very small, stick welds extremely well, dc for the thin stuff, I think I paid about 200 hundred for it with a discount coupon on sale.

The welder I use most at home, the lincoln 225 amp stick using 6011 rods. I can weld 16 gauge mild steel using 3/32 rods with this welder. Most people probably could not weld this thin of steel with this welder, remember, I have been doing this for a long time. The harbor freight welder gets little use mostly because I forget I have it until after I get the job done.

Harbor freight has a stick welder, 115 volt, I think about 80 dollars, mosfet driven that should be able to weld 1/8 inch steel using 3/32 6011 rods. When the transformer is replaced with power transistors the overall efficiency of the welder goes up, from about 60% to 80%. The forum "welding web" has a discussion on these welders.

These little mosfet driven stick welders are extemely smooth operators, in my opinion. I do not think that they are any harder to learn on than a good mig welder. I don't see how you can go wrong with this welder.

Most steel contains maganese. Most welding rods contain maganese. Maganese is a very important alloy in most steels.
Once, maganese, because of the good properties in puts into steel, was added in much larger amounts than it is now. These high maganese steel caused severe health problems to welders, 60, 70, 80 years ago. That is no longer the case.
Open your garage door, that is plenty of ventilation.
Weld with your head out of the fume plume. New welders often stick their head real close to the weld. Keep your arms extended when welding, keep your head back away from the weld, you will weld better and have more control of your weld this way.

Ask questions, I'll answer them.

I'll discuss helmets next after I figure out how to post pictures

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/20/11 at 07:36:37

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/163439_161214993922899_100001031990061_309493_392233_n.jpg

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/20/11 at 08:47:54

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/58014_161214847256247_100001031990061_309489_8059111_n.jpg
Helmets,
A lot of cheap helmets have plastic lenses. They don't work well. Visibility is quite poor with these.
Look for a helmet with glass lenses.
The headgear on cheap helmets is well cheap.
The harbor freight helmet that has autodarkening is barely adequate for a helmet. The visisbility is poor compared to more expensive helmets. The lowest cost autodarkening helmet that I have found is this hobart helmet

http://www.tractorsupply.com/welding-metalworking/welding-helmets-accessories/welding-helmets/hobart-variable-shade-auto-darkening-welding-helmet-black-3807540

I have tried all of the less expensive autodarkening helmets, this is the cheapest auto helmet that has the clarity necessary to make good welds.
It also has accesories like magnifying lenses, low cost replacement headgear, available at tractor supply and northern tools.

Visisbility is very important when welding, you will struggle with a cheap helmet.

Helmet care. Always store your helmet in a bag. Don't leave it out to where dirt and grime build up on the lenses.

For occasional welding, a standard helmet that has good headgear and glass lenses is fine, buy lenses in grade 9 thru 12, should be sufficient for home welding. Probably about 50 dollars from a welding supply store.

The lense is protected on both sides by polycarbonate covers, these get dirty. It is cheaper to cut your covers from lexan, available from home depot or lowes. Buy the thinnest they have, and cut new covers with a snips as needed. Polycarbonate, while more clear than lexan, does not cut well, it cracks and chips easily.

The helmet is most important piece of welding equipment you can buy.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/20/11 at 09:26:52

Rods and welding wire,,, for the home shop

Stick welding rods
6010 a dc only rod, do it all rod, deeper penetrating, used professionally,probably the most common rod in use.

6011, same as 6010, ac or dc. Probably the most common rod used at home and ranch.

6013, designed for ac use, designed to weld thinner steel. Uses a higher voltage than the equivelant 6010 or 6011. This allows an ac welder to maintain an arc on the low voltage welding of thinner steels. Works on dc also.

7014, ac/dc, nice rod, does not have deoxidizers, made for new clean steel only. Very nice looking welds, strikes easily, medium slag, which, on sound welds, cleans very easily. Nice, nice nice.

7018, professional rod. Generally, I would not consider this a home use rod. ac/dc. Available in an ac version. Whats up with that, the 7018 has always been an ac rod. On high current welding, arc blow is a problem, ac eliminates arc blow.
On low currents, does not strike an arc well, harder to restrike.

Once the sealed package is opened, must be kept in a rod oven. In humid weather, the rods last about a day, throw them away.

The 7018 is sesigned for high tensile, thick steel, well beyond the scope of the home welder.

Thin high tensile steels can be welded with the 6010, or 7010, or 8010,
Car chassis are often thin high strenth steel, driveshafts etc.

The 6010, 6011, 6013, 7014, in average climates, do not need any special storage consideration, standard rod holders or pvc pipe with caps is sufficient. These rods need a moisture content to perform. 6010, 6011 and 6013 should not, except in unusual circumstances, be dried. If these rods get rusty, throw them away. If the rods covering looks good, and the rod is not rusty, 20 year old rods are fine.

For home use, I use lincoln rods, they perform better than most, I buy them at home depot lowes etc.

Rods from harbor frieght are downright, the absolute worst rods I have ever used.

Hobart rods from Northern tools and tractor supply, they're alright, I guess I prefer the lincolns for home use.

Mig wire.
Flux core, Fabshield, nothin better for mild steel.
Bare wire, Lincoln L56, feeds better, no splatter, cost more, really a premium wire, nozzle stays clean, contact tip lasts forever. I think it is L56, i'll look that up

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/20/11 at 10:34:40

http://www.harborfreight.com/240-volt-inverter-arc-tig-welder-66787.html

I was happy with the performance of my harbor freight welder, the 220 volt stick/tig welder, on stick welding. It was not so good with scratch start tig. Harbor freight no longer carries the welder that I own, it was replaced with the above welder.

I purchased the above welder because it advertises lift start tig. Well, it did'nt lift start to well, and, it did not stick weld very well because it only has the lift start mode to start a stick weld, I returned it. I do not recommend the above welder.

http://www.harborfreight.com/interests/welding-and-welders/80-amp-inverter-arc-welder-91110.html

This is the welder that gets a lot of discussion on the welding web. 120 volts. 27 volts at 80 amps. DC nice
Now the math
20 amp circuit, lets call it 115 volts, the outlet is right next to the panel box,,,should supply about 2300 watts,,no extension cord mind you.

27 volts times 80 amps,,,2160 watts,,
2160/2300 is 94% efficient.

I don't know of any power transistors that are that efficient, but you know, I don't really keep up with the latest in transistors.

Cost a little more than I thought, about 140 dollars,,,but will run on 120 volts.

What is the feasibility of running a 220 volt circuit to your welding area? Depending on your panel box, 220 volt breakers vary in price, I am not an electrician, but I just added a 30 amp 220 breaker to my box, the breaker was 45 dollars. 10 foot of 8 gauge wire was I think 3.30 a foot. The recepticle, box and cover, oh what was it, about another 30 dollars.

Not long ago, I made up another 50 foot 6 gauge extension cord for my biggest welder, the cost was well over a hundred dollars I believe.

For someone who does'nt weld much, and does'nt want to spend a lot on getting into welding, a 120 volt inverter based welder starts to make a lot of cents to me. Don't expect to weld 1/4 inch plate, but with practice, the 10 dollar lincoln welding book, you should be able to handle up to a quarter inch steel with proper preperation and the proper rods using the 140 dollar welder mentioned above.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/20/11 at 15:31:18

Stick welders, general information
dc vs ac
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/65797_161222723922126_100001031990061_309612_910670_n.jpg

Right on the very end of the work bench next to the garage door is the 220 volt harbor freight stick/tig welder, the little black box with some cables coming out of it. About the size of a small shoe box.

Why dc. Direct current welding, the arc is continous, allowing one to use lower voltages and currents, smaller rods, I use 1/16 rods, can weld the thin stuff, thinner than the low cost tig welders that run about 1200 dollars, With the 1/16 7014 rods from tractor supply I can weld 22 gauge, about a 32nd of an inch, steel. The steel needs to be clean, clean clean when using a 7014. You also need a lot of practice to weld these thin steels. They require very good fitment, careful tacking, and a real steady continous absolutely straight weld, good rod angle. This takes practice. And a good helmet with very good optical quality.

Why ac
Well, once it was considered the lowest cost home welding system, still is pretty cheap
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/311955_234625873248477_100001031990061_688388_3387927_n.jpg
With a 6013, a lot of practice, a lot of practice, and I emphasize practice, 16 gauge, about 1/16 inch steel, is its lowest range, Because the current reverses every cycle, 60 times a second, the arc extinguishes each current reversal and re-establishes twice each cycle.
14 gauge welds fine with this welder using 3/32 rods with practice. I have used 5/32 rods with no problem, single pass on 3/8 structural grades. It will put out the rated amps.
Here is a weld using a 1/8" 6013
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/321640_234635169914214_100001031990061_688396_6719034_n.jpg

The finished product

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/199579_188100991234299_100001031990061_473782_5770564_n.jpg

This bike was built using a combination of 14 gauge tube thru 1/4 steel plate using an ac lincoln 225 amp welder.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Boule’tard on 08/21/11 at 07:49:06

Wow that's a lot of good info Johansson, thanks for sharing! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/21/11 at 08:11:13

Mig welders
I look for two things in a mig welder.
I look for a continously variable voltage control. I avoid mig welders with tapped transformers.
I look for a welding lead that uses tweco tips. Tweco tips are available just about everywhere, Home Depot, Lowes, Old fashioned hardware stores,, super convenient.
These two welders have both, the 140c is a 120 volt machine, 600 dollars
The 180c is 700 dollars
The specs
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/en_US/Products/K2471-1/e723.pdf
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/en_US/Products/K2473-1/e724.pdf
The lincoln welders in this class have a much better arc characteristic than less expensive mig welders. They also have a better weld bead and welding characteristic than the similar priced hobart handlers.
I bought the 180c a couple of years ago to replace my 3rd 180 amp hobart handler in 15 years. Now I assure you, I am not dissing the Hobart Handler, I abused the hobarts.
Read the specs on the above welders, both should be adequate for a home shop. Both will weld 24 gauge steel,,, thats about .024 thick. Very light steel. To weld this light of steel with tig you will spend 3 times as much minimum.
Leads,
Magnum leads are readily available, I buy the 15 foot leads for about 125 dollars complete with gun, liner, nozzle and tips delivered to my door. I bump up from the stock 100 amp lead to the 200 amp lead and set up the lead with a liner for .035 wire. I use the stock lead for .025 wire. The 200 amp lead uses heavier contact tips, diffusers and nozzles. The shorter 10 foot lead feeds the thinner wire a lot better, uses a much smaller nozzle for better visibility.
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/304883_234846596559738_100001031990061_689012_7120594_n.jpg
I will just show you pictures of my other 2 mig welders, I won't discuss them much.
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/299745_234846503226414_100001031990061_689006_1842119_n.jpg
The above welder is a 200 amp Hobart Ironman 210. Been a good welder. I believe in the picture it is set up with a 300 amp lead, the lead rolled up on the welder is off of something else,,looks like a light magnum lead with a sheath from a plasma cutter over it,,
I probably got this about 10 years ago, never been repaired, used mostly for heavy steel. This is a tapped transformer, no variable voltage control. These tapped transformers don't work as well for light steel.
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/291996_234846613226403_100001031990061_689013_7636587_n.jpg
This is a premium welder. Will weld down to 5 volts, I can run .020 wire thru it. I believe I got this welder in 95. Has a circuit board that I added an aluminum welding module to. You change the board to weld aluminum with some dip switches. Welds aluminum very well without the use of a spool gun. Today, this welder would probably cost between 2 and 3 thousand, I have always been a little unhappy with the drive system, should have put a wire feeder on it years ago,,I go through wire feed speed potentiometers about every couple of years. Lot of bad reviews on this welder. I use a 350p miller mig at work,, this welder is better...the miller welders at work have bells and whistles, pulse etc. modified programs for aluminum etc. which is nice, but on general steel and aluminum welding, this lincoln is better.

Next, gasses and the care of welding wire

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/21/11 at 09:59:48

You are welcome Boule'tard
A little info on aluminum welding from Miller
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/index.php?page=articles10.html

I can buy a harbor freight stick welder for 140, a 10 dollar book from lincoln, a 50 dollar hood from a welding supplier,,run a 20 amp breaker to my garage,,50 dollars maybe a 100, I'd use 10 gauge wire,,,I'll need a good 10 gauge extension cord, short one,,30 dollars
I'd say you can get into welding for about 400 dollars and weld 16 gauge to 10 gauge,,,1/16 to 1/8 inch steel...and that should be enough for most people.
Should get a good fire extinguisher, maybe get 2 extinguishers.

Heavier steel, get a 220 volt ac stick welder for about 300 dollars
400 dollars will buy a 220 volt ac/dc stick welder,,weld very heavy steel, 1/2 inch and stuff, run an extension cord to your electric range or a dryer.

I had a 400 dollar lincoln mig welder from Home Depot, this was 15 years ago, I could'nt weld 1/8" steel with it. Flux core, bare wire, 25/75 argon blend,,,It would not penetrate..I'm in Texas, welding in a 100 degree shop,,

Gas bottles,,
Small bottles,, about $100, 40 cf cubic foot,
Medium bottles, about $200, 80 cf
Large bottles, to big for home use, i think they are 125 cf I don't remember what I paid for em,

I think last time I exchanged my medium bottles for argon 25/75 for around 25 dollars,,30 to 35 for straight argon,,

You don't get to keep your bottles, you exchange them. bottles don't expire, the supplier keeps them up to date,,don't fall into getting billed for an out of date bottle,,go somewhere else. Bottles are tested and rebuilt by the supplier.

For lighter steel, use a 90/10 argon mix

If you get home and the bottle is empty, this happens a lot, go back to your supplier, they will happily exchange it, for a full one.

Wire for mig.
Buy premium wire, don't buy the box that says premium, ask your supplier for the really good wire,,a 30 lb roll of good wire is 30 dollars, a really good wire will cost 40 dollars,,wire prices are really jumpin around right now,,expect to pay more than this.

If the wire is dull, has spots, or, in the worst case, actually looks rusty, Return it. Wire comes from overseas, gets wet in these container ships. Make sure the box looks spotless. If the box is old looking and looks like it has been damp, don't buy it, go somewhere else.T

Buy er70s-6. That stands for 70,000 lb tensile, and the 6 is for the deoxidizer,,For the best welds, the millscale should be ground off, all oil and rust should also be removed.

A 10 lb box of wire cost as much as a 30 lb box.

If you don't weld much, store your wire inside where it won't get rusty.

Rusty wire will ruin the liner, clogs the contact tip,, liners are about 20 bucks, tips about a dollar. Makes it real frustrating to weld.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/21/11 at 12:29:11

I bought a Harbor reight welder,, worked like crap,, came apart inside a few times, had to go in & put the thing back together, last time I sprayed some lithium grease on the parts that slide inside each other to adjust the amps,, man, it welded a lot beter after that,, IDK why,, but then, I didtch the HF rods & got some rods from a welder supply shop., & then it was even better,, & those grinding disks from HF??? Dont use them,, they cost almost nothing per disk, but they stink( as in smell bad) & sling chunks at ya, & wear out real fast, but quality ( I use Norton) disks, grind longer, be more comfortable & be safer & spend less $$.
Thanks JoHanssen for the tips,

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by mmosel on 08/21/11 at 21:05:07

Johansson, thanks for your amazing posts, very generous of you to take the time to share all that info with everyone here. Awesome!

I'm still reading it and digesting it. I'll be rereading this thread multiple times...

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/21/11 at 21:12:08

Ohh, me too,,, I just barely scratched the surface

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/24/11 at 04:22:59

While I am thinking of it.
ALWAYS WEAR EARPLUGS WHILE WELDING
A little ball of molten metal down the the ear canal will permanently ruin your hearing.

Grinding and Grinders

Grinding makes a lot of dust, it is best to do it outside.
You should wear a paper mask while grinding.
A face shield is better than safety glasses, keeps the dust off of your face

4 1/2 inch angle grinders are the most common and have the most accesories at the best prices. 4 inch grinders have fewer accesories in stock at most retailers. 5 inch grinders are an oddball size, hard to get the accesories for them.

6, 7, and 9 inch grinders are common sizes. 9 inch probably the size where availability of accesories is good.

For home use, 4 1/2 inch will probably be your best bet.

90% of my grinding is with a 4 1/2 inch grinder
For the money, I get very good service out of the cheap harbor freight grinders. I usually buy them for about 12 dollars on sale with a coupon. I have bought dozens of these. I have not burned any of them up, drop them just right and the gear housing cracks.

A 13 amp Milwaukee is the longest lasting 4 1/2 inch grinder made. If you think that you are going to do a lot of heavy grinding, this would be my suggestion,,about 99 dollars. A little heavier, and like all milwaukee tools, about the least ergonomic tool made.

Dewalt makes a nice 7 amp 4 1/2 inch grinder, I buy them at Lowe's on sale for 50 dollars,,usually a couple of times a year they are on sale. Normal price is 54 to 59 dollars. These are a lot easier to handle than the Milwaukees, 7 amps is plenty for a 4 1/2 inch grinder. These are light, ergonomic, nice for finish work.

When I am welding, I have 4 grinders mounted on a rack next to me.
One has a grinding disc, for knocking off scale, rust paint, light beveling
One has a cut off disc, for cutting tacks, light grinding
One has a knotted cone wire brush, lot better than a chipping hammer
One has a flap disc, great for fine finish work

Harbor Freight disc, they are not the best, different brand every month, not the cheapest either. Northern tool brand in the 10 packs I think are about a buck a piece in the 4 1/2 inch work okay.

Norton Gemini are a premium disc, better then the Norton discs from Home Depot.

Last year I bought about 200 discs, flap discs and other grinding accesories from harbor freight on close out, for what I paid I am not going to complain.

A 4 1/2 inch disc last about a week for me on a 13 amp Milwaukee 4 1/2 inch grinder. I weld 10 hours a day, 5 to 6 days a week. I would expect a disc to last a hobbiest at least a year,,might as well buy premium.

I use a 9 inch grinder for the heavy work, trailer building, structural work, I don't see a hobbiest needing one of these strength training, upper body building devices.

My advice, buy 2 grinders, the 7 amp dewalt and a cheap grinder for your other accessories.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/24/11 at 12:38:10

A 4 1/2 inch disc last about a week for me on a 13 amp Milwaukee 4 1/2 inch grinder. I weld 10 hours a day, 5 to 6 days a week. I would expect a disc to last a hobbiest at least a year,,might as well buy premium.

You my not quite understand fully what I mean when I talk about "Welding",,, I probably run a grinder more than the welder,, Im not very good at welding,, ;)

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/24/11 at 16:07:15

Well, Justin_O_Guy, I understand not being able to weld well also. I think I can help.

Before welding, take the lenses and lense covers off of your helmet and clean them..Get new covers and lenses if needed.

The 2 most important points in welding are:
Visisbility,
The rod or wire.

The welding machine is not important as long as it is in good working order and powerful enough for the job.

We are going to check that welder before we start.

Get some new 6011 rods if you have a stick welder. Buy a 10 lb pack of 3/32 and a 10 lb pack of 1/8 rods.

Get a piece of steel, preferably thick, like a quarter inch, whatever you can get your hands on, bigger the better.

6011 3/32 amperage range is 45 to 75 amps
6011 1/8 amperage range is 75 to 125 amps

Set your welder to the maximum recommended amps, 75 for 3/32, 125 for a 1/8 rod.

Strike an arc, it will light right up, it won't stick. Don't move the rod side to side, move it up a little, then push it right into the puddle, slowly move the rod in the puddle, slow is not slow enough, slowwwwww, got it, slowwwwww.

Just get used to lighting the rod up and forming a puddle, stay in the puddle, make the puddle larger, do not try to run a bead. Work on maintaining a good arc length.

This is going get you used to liting the rod, forming a puddle, and getting a feel for a good arc length,,,,and maintaining that arc length as the rod is being consumed,,,, don't worry about rod angle

Do this for 15 minutes, dunk the metal in some water between rod changes.

Now we are going to do an equipment check, put your hand on the ground clamp, if it is hot,,that is not good, If the clamp is just a few degrees above ambient temp. that is good.

A hot ground clamp is a sign of a problem, a very common problem and will always negatively affect the quality of the weld. Usually, the problem resides between the copper ground wire and the lug crimped to the wire that bolts directly to the ground clamp. Buy a new lug, they are a couple of bucks at any auto parts store, not the best lugs. Better lugs are available, zinc plated, from a welding supplier, much better because they are of a heavier gage. Clean every connection with a wire brush before reassembly.

If it is a mig welder, pull the trigger of the gun, the gun should not have any vibration, the wire should come out smooth as silk. Vibration is caused by a bad contact tip, or a bad liner. If the gun has a shudder or vibration remover the contact tip. Pull the trigger again without the contact tip installed and if the vibration is gone, we know to replace the contact tip with a new one.

With the mig outfit, the owners manual is necessary in order to match the voltage range with the wire speed.

A good place to start is about 200 inches per minute if your mig welder's speed control knob is calibrated to inches per minute. Set the volts about 2/5 of the way from the lowest setting.
Without the manual for your welder, i cannot tell you exactly how to set this up.
Never adjust the voltage while welding, TRUST ME.
You can adjust the wire speed while welding,

Adjust the wire speed until the wire is burning off real nicely with about 3/8 inch of a gap between the diffuser and the metal. Practice making large puddles, while concentrating on maintaining that 3/8 ths gap between the diffuser and the metal.

Thats all for now

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/24/11 at 16:21:24

WOW,, thanks,, Iv got some 3/8the steel,, I think thats the heaviest I have, Gonna be a while, hops loaded up & I havnt been able to get anything done for 9 weeks, (health problems).I gotta move cabinets out of the way & get feelin good enough to do something,, not looki like that gonna be in the next few days.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by berg on 08/24/11 at 19:30:29

Johansson that is brilliant.
thanks for the detail.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/25/11 at 04:08:36

I am glad this is helping. Nice to be able to contribute.

A 6011 is advertised as being able to burn thru paint, rust, millscale.
What does that mean? It means that it will work on used metal. I does not mean that you can weld painted, or rusty or dirty greasy metal. It means that it will weld painted, rusty dirty greasy metal after you have done everything in your power to clean the metal as clean as is humanly possible Every trace of the contaminants need to be removed.

Remnants of rust, paint and oil may still remain, the 6011 will float these trace elements of paint and oil to the surface and trap them in the slag.. The rust (iron oxide) is removed by the deoxidiers, silicone and aluminum, into a different chemical compound that is more stable in the weld puddle. Without the deoxider, the puddle gets an almost sponge apearance. The puddle looks like it is getting an injection of air,and is very weak and brittle, very visible while welding, and very visible after welding.
The deoxidizer performs a chemical reduction and oxidation reaction in the weld pool. If there is a lot of rust in the metal, this chemical reaction in the weld pool releases a lot of heat, making a very liquid puddle, a very hot puddle which is very hard to control.

The strength of the weld, if you rely on the deoxidizer to clean the rust, is 50% of the strength of a comparable weld on clean metal.

Old pipe, old metal. The rust is completely through the metal. This metal will be difficult to weld. Even with a thorough grinding, the reduction reaction is very active, makes a very hot weld puddle, and the weld will not look good and will have poor strength.

Millscale, paint, rust and oil must always be cleaned in order to make sound welds.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by berg on 08/25/11 at 22:13:30

this is off topic Johansson, and i'm guessing you will either love or hate this;
as an apprentice aircraft engineer 30 years ago, our first year was in a trade school. welding was one of the skills. we had weeks of practise and play on all types and styles. brilliant.
the final assessment was an electric weld of two 1/4 inch thick metal plates. judged on squareness, weld penetration neatness etc etc.
a mate and I discovered freehand welding was just to shaky to be neat, so we set about to discover how make it perfect. after many experiments we found the right rod, filed flat the outer cover of flux, set the amps just right, struck the electrode and just lay the rod onto the metal joint. the rod would slowly burn along its length leaving a perfect weld in its wake. the teacher could not believe or understand how we did it. we even handed him the piece of flux scale that came off in one 6 inch piece. we both got A pluses and a reputation as two of the best welders to graduate. thankfully we were electricians so didnt have to ever repeat the performance on the job.
it was cheating, but gee what fun was had...dont try this at home people, much steel was used, many rods welded to the work, much equipment strained, many eyes flashed. ::) youch that hurts.
thanks for all your valuable welding information, i am keen to get back into it. berg

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/26/11 at 04:07:30

Sounds like it would work Berg!! Have a manufacturer make rods in a hoop, sure would be able to sell that to the pipe welders.

Lets get back to welding. Unless asked otherwise, I am going mostly talk about stick welding. Welding steel is the same with either stick or mig.

Alright, spend about 15 minutes with both sizes of rods making puddles at the rods maximum voltage settings. 6011 rods at maximum tend to splatter more. We'll turn the voltage down a little:
60 volts for the 3/32
90 to 100 for the 1/8

The previous practice should make lighting the rod easier on these lower voltages. Just practice lighting the rod for 15 minutes, no need to make a puddle unless you want to. Don't worry about rod angle.

Helmet setup.

Your helmet, whether it is a fixed shade or an automatic helmet needs to be adjusted so that it drops without using your hand. It does, in my experiance working with new welders, take some practice to get the helmet just right.

Better helmets have good headgear. Cheap helmet do not. Get to know the knobs on the helmet. Adjust the helmet to fit, this can take a good while.

When the helmet is set up correctly a simple tilt of the head, not a shake of the head, will allow the helmet to quickly and gently fall into place, If the head gear is of good quality, this may take you 15 minutes or so to get the headgear set up so that it falls correctly and have the lenses line up so that they are in the proper alignment with your eyes.

The ability to just barely tilt your head and have the helmet gently fall into place is important. I cannot emphasize this enough. I would say that this is the reason that a lot of people consider mig welding to be easier than stick welding. To properly strike an arc that helmet needs to be set up properly.

The gun must be held with two hands. Mig or Stick. On heavier steel kinda hold the gun like a golf club or baseball bat, one hand in front of the other. On lighter steel, one hand over the other hand. Both hands on the gun at all times.

Stance, rock solid. I don't pistol shoot. I hunt, bow and arrow, rifle, so I have a lot of experiance with firearms. Put a pistol in my hand and I will shoot very tight groups. Because I use the same stance as when I weld at a bench.

Put the side of your hip against the table, brace your legs, don't get all wound up, relax, get your center of gravity right, don't stick your head right next to what you are welding.

Both hands on the gun, put the rod into position, gently lower your head about an inch, the helmet falls into place, strike an arc.
Let a puddle form for about 2 seconds, count, one one thousand,,,,,,,
Advance the rod slowly, slowly, slowly, as slow as you can.

Do not worry about rod angle, your eyes are fixed on the puddle, concentrate on the puddle and keeping the rod tip real close to that puddle while slowly advancing.

If the rod sticks, turn the amperage up a notch, with practice rod sticking will pretty much go away.

Don't worry about rod angle, that will come naturally.

Change things up, form a puddle and push the puddle, don't worry about rod angle, that will come naturally. You will find pushing is more difficult than pulling.

There should be no rod manipulation, no whipping, no circles or side to side motion.

As straight as possible, slow, slow slow.
It should take a minute to go 12 inches, or longer.

Always concentrate on the puddle, get a feel for rod angle and how it changes the position of the arc on the puddle. It is kind of like a wave, you can ride the top of the wave, or the bottom,, pushing is on top, pulling is on bottom. Just get a feel for it.

Continue until you make something that looks like a good weld.

Give it a rest, but practice until you can make very good looking beads through out the amperage range of both sizes of rods.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Routy on 08/26/11 at 05:56:47

For the OP, ::) I would still recommend a mig welder over a stick. I know many guys (welder wannabees) that have a cheap stick machine setting in a corner for years,.....they just gave it up before they ever mastered striking an arc, and learning to run stick. I've seen the messes they've made that just discouaged them into giving it up. Some of those same guys did rebuy,.... mig machines and are now not bad DIY welders. Like I said before, stick has its place, (many places) but not for the inexperienced,.....all IMO only. Yes I been a welder for 55 yrs,.....still am :-/.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/26/11 at 06:38:24

There should be no rod manipulation, no whipping, no circles or side to side motion.

Between that statement & the Go SLOOOOWWW & The Build a puddle,, I expect my grinder use to go down,

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/26/11 at 17:50:26

Routy, I would have agreed with you a few years ago, before I had used my first small inverter based dc stick welder,,I just could'nt believe how well they strike an arc. They were pretty pricey back then, the neighbor to my shop did auto repair and bought a nice 110/220 set up that fit in a small case, I think he paid a couple a thou for it, did tig too.

For sheetmetal work, say 14 gauge and less, mig is really the way to go. For production, flux core and stick require a little post weld clean up.

It really depends on what you want to do. For me, at home, it is a lot easier to pull out the stick welder, I am always welding something, trailers, making and repairing equipment. Souping up the lawnmower. At home I am not doing lite work. For me dragging out my mig welder is quite a challenge vs dragging out the leads from my stick welder.

I think a lot of people would like to learn a little steel to steel welding and not spend a lot of money. These little inverter welders take up such a small amount of room that they should be considered.
A mig welder takes up quite a lot of space if you have a bottle and want it to be portable. A lot more investment too.

I think that spending 3 or 4 hours to learn to weld would be about the minumum time one should spend to learn to weld 14 gauge to 1/4 steel. An equal amount of time is going to be spent learning either method.

I have a Harbor Freight Mig welder. I have never used it, My Dad gave it to me, He bought it cheap and thought I should have it. The lead is worthless, has a plastic liner, The cover of the lead is thin loose plastic. The contact tips are microscopic, I guess you get tips at Harbor Freight. The lead is maybe 8 feet long, no option for a longer lead, it is definately proprietory. The drive rolls are about the size of a dime, maybe a nickel. I would have a hard time believing that it could weld well.

http://www.harborfreight.com/interests/welding-and-welders/240-volt-inverter-arc-tig-welder-66787.html

The above is my harbor freight stick/tig welder, only 130 amps. It stick welds nice. Handles 1/8 rods down to 1/16. In a couple of weeks it will take some pictures of some 1/2 steel plate that I welded with it. I did'nt pay a whole lot for it. I doubt I paid over 150 max for it, it was clearance and I had a 20% coupon. It needs longer leads, a real ground clamp and a real stinger. I have that stuff since I am a welder.

I bought this welder because I needed a welder with more portability, I would not have purchased it if it would have cost more. I was going to buy the lincoln invertec 155 or the miller equivelant for a portable stick welder. With the money I saved buying this welder I am about to purchase the Lincoln 175 amp tig. My tig welder weighs something like 1000 lbs, definately not portalble.

Mig or stick, I don't know, both are fine, depends on what one needs. Or you could be like me, buy a few of each.

Well, lets talk more on learning to weld next.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/27/11 at 04:50:22

It is really hard for me to decide for someone what process, tig, mig or stick, would be best for them.

Miller welding wrote this article, read the bottom carefully about inverter advantages.
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/index.php?page=articles31.html

When choosing a welder, mig vs stick, dollar for dollar, a lot more welding power is available for stick.
Stick inverters machines weld very well in the lighter gauges, say down to 16 gauge, a DIY'er can probably do quite well on 14 gauge with one.

Tacking. In order to join 2 pieces of steel together, they need to be tacked. Mig has the advantage here, especially on the lighter gauges.

To tack lighter gauges with stick is much more difficult.
An auto darkening helmet makes tacking with stick much easier.
Use a 1/16 6013 to tack with.
Inverter stick welders tack much better than transformer based stick welders.

Most welding by a DIY'er is probably going to be single pass welding, Single pass welding is really not that technical.
A box of 1/16 and 3/32 6013's
A box of 3/32 and 1/8 6011's
A box of 3/32 and1/8 7014's, I will discuss the 7014 later........
I just found an excellent article on Millers website, Read down toward the bottom, Manipulation of the electrode,
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/smaw-stick-arc-welding-tips-techniques/

A lot of very good information in the above article.

The advantages of mig welding over stick welding. (single pass welding)
No post weld cleaning
Easier tacking

The disadvantages of mig vs stick
Nozzle splatter. The number one problem I have to deal with when training new welders. Splatter in the nozzle affects the shielding gas coverage. New welders generally just bang the nozzle against the table, deforming the nozzle, which also affects shielding gas coverage. A lot of time must be spent keeping the nozzle clean, the use of nozzle dip is mandatory. New welders, until they fully understand how to set voltage and wire speed spend an inordinate amount of time on this problem.

Splatter in the nozzle also shorts the contact tip to the nozzle. The nozzle becomes electrically hot, direct shorts to the weld, heats the contact tip causing a poor weld and ruining the contact tip.,,

Burn back. The wire melts off and welds to the contact tip.
Causes,
Improper wire speed
Dirty wire
Cheap wire
Bad contact tip
Old liner
Dirty liner caused by cheap wire or wire that has gotten rusty.
Welding with the welding lead in a loop or twisted.
Poor ground

Weld preperation on old, or dirty, or painted steel.
The standard prep on used steel is higher with mig vs stick
Flux core is about the only solution.

I am a fence sitter, both methods, stick and mig, imo, need about the same amount of practice to learn well.

The main disadvantage is that the overall investment is quite a bit higher with mig vs stick holding the range of weldable steel thickness in the 1/16 to 1/4 inch range constant.

Holding the range of weldable steels to this range means single pass welding. A lot less to learn.

The same learning processes for both, welding up, welding down, welding flat, pushing, pulling, horizontal, proper gap, proper heat, proper angle.

To weld, you have to practice the fundamentals.

Oh, get the 10 dollar lincoln welding book, it will make it much easier to learn.

I like both welding methods.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/28/11 at 05:33:06

For mig welders, amperage range of various wires, along with metal thickness,, not real technical

http://www.welding-advisers.com/PRACTICAL_WELDING_LETTER-PracticalWeldingLetterNo23.html

For stick welding,
http://www.welding-advisers.com/SMA-welding-tips.html

For mig welding,
http://www.welding-advisers.com/Mig-welding-tips.html

The first link above, the first article listed after the introduction, read the part on determining wire speed, how to determine it, and wire speed as it relates to amperage and the thickness of metal.
When mig welding it is very important to determine these parameters for your welder. Yes, to use a mig welder you are going to have to do a little mathematics.

I posted the other two articles, mainly, as an introduction to slope and inductance,,,(droop) in welding slang. Circuit boards in both mig and inverter based welders pretty much take care of this automatically in small welders,,,
In the old days, mig welders where very expensive, they ran best on one wire size, changing wire sizes on old mig welders caused a lot of problems at the weld (mostly splatter) due to their inability to monitor and adjust for slope. Oh, there were a lot of shop made hacks for this,,some probably not to well thought out..,.,.,.,

Okay, back to welding practice
mig welding,,most welding will be push the weld, on thin steels, 16 gauge and less, straight in and maybe even some pulling. The forementioned is not set in stone. It depends on the welding machine, the wire size, the thickness of the steel.. It takes some time to figure out.

stick welding,, mostly drag the weld,,straight in on overhead works well. Again, not set in stone.

Gap, the distance between the two pieces to be welded, also determines whether one pushes or pulls. A large gap, pull,,,a small gap, push....or straight in,

Mig welders, spend about 5 minutes forming small puddles 1/4 wide.
Stick welders, do the same.

mig welders, push your weld, stick welders, pull your weld.

Strike an arc with a 60ll, form a puddle about 3/8 ths of an inch wide for stick and slowly start a weld,, what you are looking to do here is keep that puddle uniformly wide as you slowly advance, rock solid stance, both hands on the gun.
As you are advancing, you may have to momemtarily pause, or speed up a little, (may have to even back up a little) just work on keeping that puddle as close to 3/8 of an inch wide as you can. Keep a good arc length at the same time.

Mig welders, do the same, only make your bead a 1/4 inch wide. Try to find the sweet spot, where the distance between the nozzle and the steel provides the smoothest sound and the least splatter.

Space all the welds so that there is about a 1/2 an inch of unwelded space between them. For the stick welders, this will make cleaning the plate a lot easier.

When you have done this to the point that the welds look good, no undercut at the edges, a visually good tie in of the weld at the edges, you are ready to start practice on butt welds.

The lincoln book has pictures of welds, to fast, to slow, to hot, to cold, just right.

The just right picture, look at the swirls, they are somewhat uniformally oval, that particular shape in the oval, that is how you determine when your weld is not to fast/slow, or hot/cold.

Do this for an hour for a few evenings, space it out. You are training your body also. It takes some practice for your body to learn too.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/28/11 at 06:58:27

Shop tools,,for metal working.

A handy press, home made
http://books.google.com/books?id=R9QDAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

If you are serious about welding,,Hand shear.
These come in 3 sizes, I have one, very handy. A lot more capacity than one would imagine. I've had mine over 10 years, used heavily and have not ever sharpened or changed the blades.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Plate-Shear-8-/T23100

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/314929_234846536559744_100001031990061_689009_7467514_n.jpg

A rod and strap bender,
http://www.harborfreight.com/compact-bender-38470.html

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s960x960/308697_234846413226423_100001031990061_689001_5410563_n.jpg
The hoops on the side of my bender I use for bending rod/strap into arches.
My employee Jorge working hard in the background.

Rod bender, these make very nice bends in stainless, cold rolled and hot rolled steel. You need a shop vise for this one to mount in.
Perfect for say, saddlebag brackets.
Shop around, they are a lot less expensive elsewhere, would not be to hard to make.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200012574_200012574

Last but not least, a carbon arc torch. These are still being made, and can be found at pawn shops, garage sales, tool sales,
Go to page 17 in the following pdf to read about them.
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/ServiceNavigator/LINCOLN3/IM347.pdf

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/29/11 at 04:05:00

The 7014 rod. AC/DC
Smooth. Handles current in the higher range very well. Depending on the weld, quite a bit faster than the 6013 and and the 6011.

Strikes and restarts better than the 6011.

This rod has iron in its coating which:
Helps to build a cone in the end of the rod. Makes the arc stable.
Allows the rod to be used at higher amperages, less likely to overheat.
Wider usable amperage range than the 6011 or 6013.
Handles poor fit, ie, irregular gap, better than most other rods.
Puts more metal into the weld, faster welding speeds.

Makes the best looking welds. Better looking welds in all positions.

In comparison, mig vs stick, this rod makes as good as, if not better, looking welds than any mig welder.

Once one has mastered the basics, this will be the go to rod.
It can be used just like the other rods, maintain a gap between the metal and the end of the rod. OR
DRAG THE ROD RIGHT ALONG THE METAL

Name brand 7014's on clean steel have virtually no splatter.
The flux cleans better than the 6013 and the 6011.

The 3 rods, 6011, 6013, and the 7014 are all position rods.
All three will weld vertically, horizontally, flat and overhead.
The 7014, does not weld in the straight down vertical weld as well as the 6013 because the travel speed is so fast in this position on thin steels. Until one gets a lot of practice the puddle will tend to over run the arc with this rod straight down vertical, I mean it is fast.

Hobart once sold this rod in the 1/16 size, I was not able to find it recently.

Amperage range
1/16 25 to 55
3/32 60 to 140
1/8 110 to160

Different manufacturers vary the amperage range of these rods by varying the iron content in the coating. The iron content of the coating varies from about 30 to 50% depending on the brand.

The higher current range of these rods should be reserved for ac current.

Again, all weldors and welding machines vary, only practice will tell one what currents work with this rod on their machine.

This should wrap it up.

Johanson

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/29/11 at 04:39:32

I think this should be put in the Tech section,, after everyone has a chance to enjoy it here, but it shouldnt be allowed to just drift away,

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by mmosel on 08/29/11 at 23:34:43

I agree. There is just too much excellent information in here.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Routy on 08/30/11 at 03:51:06

Yeah, hardly a rubber side up thread.
Why not in a welding forum, w/ a link to it.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Routy on 08/30/11 at 04:25:24

Quote:
Name brand 7014's on clean steel have virtually no splatter.
The flux cleans better than the 6013 and the 6011.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct, 7014 on a DC machine can make a beautiful weld. If the heat is perfect, the flux just curls up and near falls of by itself, and it can be run in the downhill position, but only in the hands of the very experienced.
7014....same as 7024 can be just plain dangerous in the hands of the less than experienced, as it can leave a groove right down the middle of the weld that is exactly identical to welding 2 beads next to each other, neither of which touches one another,.....exactly the same as if it had never been welded at all.
Yes, I have run miles of 14 and 24 jet rod in my day. They each have their place, as does 6011.
I'm not saying that a mig run downhill won't run a puddle ahead of the weld that is near the same as no weld at all (zero penetration) too, because it happens often in the hands of the inexperienced.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 08/30/11 at 17:45:43

Routy, you bring up an excellent point. Which leads me to again recommend the book, New lessons in Arc Welding by Lincoln Electric.

It has a lot of advice, correct advice, that will cover what I cannot possibly cover here.

It is the best book that I have found on arc welding for someone new to welding.

I have seen a lot beginning welding books in past, lots of errors in most of them. The one carried at both Lowe's and Home Depot, errors throughout.

The book I am recommending is a resource you will use as long as you weld.

Routy's point is
"7014....same as 7024 can be just plain dangerous in the hands of the less than experienced, as it can leave a groove right down the middle of the weld that is exactly identical to welding 2 beads next to each other, neither of which touches one another,.....exactly the same as if it had never been welded at all"

The problem, incorrect procedure. Go to page 8 and 9 to view why this happens.
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/en_US/Products/Consumable_StickElectrodes-MildandLowAlloySteels-Fleetweld-Fleetweld47/c2410.pdf

On a high speed iron coated rod, you need more rod angle, you need to drag the rod, and you need to be hauling a..,.

In a production enviroment welding manually, what is faster, mig or stick? Often times, stick is faster. I don't want to go into a lot of detail, but,,,, If I need to put down a lot of pounds of weld metal the 7014, 7024, 27, 18, 28 will out weld a mig. High production rates are always done with ac, not dc, when stick welding.

Welding at home, entry level setup. Simple steel to steel welding. Maybe even a little stainless steel.

Stick is the most economical. dollar for dollar. Not too hard to learn.

Mig, dollar for dollar, what about 3 times the cost for the same power level? Better for the real thin stuff for a new weldor, 14 gauge and lighter.

Welding straight down, lets talk sheet metal, 16 gauge and under.
These are not tips.
This is how it has to be done, mig or stick.
Tack every 1"
Fit. must be perfect.
I need a picture, I don't have one, the metal must be tacked so that both exposed edges are clearly exposed at the joint.

On thin steel, 16 gauge and less, this perfectly aligned joint is tough to do with stick. It takes a lot of practice with mig.

The weld itself, there is no forgiveness, you cannot veer from the exact center of the weld 1/64 of an inch or you will burn through, stick or mig. When you burn through, well again, mig will fix the hole easier.

If this metal is not tacked perfect, the weld will look like, well, not to good. And you will burn through.

Mig tacks better than stick,,
The weld itself is no more difficult, stick or mig.
Post weld clean up is easier with mig.

If your welding is'nt to hot, you will be grinding this weld to make it look good, which eliminates the mig advantage on post weld cleanup.

To clarify the use of the 7014. I use the 7014 almost exclusively on my 220 volt ac 225 amp lincoln tombstone style welder. It welds wonderfully on this machine.

Practice with the 6011 first, imo, the 6011 is easier to learn with.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Boule’tard on 08/30/11 at 18:11:29

Awesome info, Tech Section material for sure. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Beginner story: I started with a small TIG system and never got any good at it. So I got rig of the tig and bought the mig.. never did try to stick weld with the tig system. But if I had it to do over, I would not hesitate to try one of the newer (inverter) arc welders.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding? Suggestions Please.
Post by Johansson on 09/01/11 at 03:44:53

Thanks everyone!
I guess I'll reserve this here and edit this post as I find deals and suggestions on welding equipment.

Shopping this morning on Sears.com
Sears has some Hobart welding rods on sale here for less than 2 dollars a pound.

Also

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00920505000P?prdNo=17&blockNo=17&blockType=G17

$453 dollars, 240amp ac/dc welder.

Sears Item# 00920505000 | Model# WE20505

A welder for someone with a lot of welding to do.

The classic Lincoln ac 225
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00920015000P?prdNo=5&blockNo=5&blockType=G5
The most popular home welder in America, $265

Title: Re: Beginners Welding Suggestions
Post by Johansson on 09/10/11 at 14:54:46

Found two really nice pdf documents, download them to your computer, one is from Lincoln and one is from Miller.

The Miller document has one error, they say that most welding is done in the flat position. I think, after one has practiced a good bit, you will find that very little welding is done in the flat position. In my work only a very small percentage of what I weld is in the flat position.

http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/PrinciplesSMAW.pdf

This Lincoln stick electrode guide is handy, how to specifically use the different rod types

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/en_US/Products/Consumable_StickElectrodes-MildandLowAlloySteels-Jetweld-Jetweld2/c2410.pdf

Little bit more advanced, from Miller.

http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/guidelines_smaw.pdf

The following video's, I think they are worth watching, stick vs mig. I watched them earlier today and uh, well,
They took a guy named Mike, who ran about a foot of weld total, and asked Mike what He thought, stick or mig?

In the second video, Mike is welding what I consider to be basic steel to steel welding. Now Mike has never welded, and, most importantly, has never practiced. If Mike had spent 3 or 4 hours practicing his welding, his welds would look much better. The welds are weak, little penetration, (they look and will perform exactly like a weld from someone who has not practiced) but for the purpose, hopefully, they will be adequate.

http://youtu.be/LPqQec1FZ8g
http://youtu.be/eCfGQXohaMQ

A couple of things from the first video,
With flux core wire in a mig welder, the nozzle is not needed. They used the nozzle, and then cleaned the nozzle by sticking the mig gun into it. This will ruin a contact tip quick. The spatter from the nozzle will enter the gas diffuser and run into the contact tip from the inside, acting like little wedges between the wire and the tip, causing poor wire feed.

Also, cleaning the nozzle with this method will prematurely wear out the gas diffuser. Use a needle nose pliers to keep the nozzle clean along with nozzle dip.

There are flux core wires that do require shielding gas, mainly wires for stainless steel. Of course then, you do need the nozzle as you will be using a shielding gas.

There are also a lot of metal cored mig wires, used for high alloy steels, or on projects that will require heat treatment, that require shielding gases, far beyond the scope of simple steel to steel welding.

Title: Re: Beginners Welding Suggestions
Post by Johansson on 09/10/11 at 15:04:21