SuzukiSavage.com - Kamikaze II intake

diamond jim

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Re: Kamikaze II intake
Reply #15 - 05/26/09 at 22:50:35

No clue. Let me see if he mentions it on his website.

BTW, the most frequently printed info for the stock LS650 is 33 ft/lbs and 30hp.

Crunching the numbers for shifting the peak up to 5200 I get 32.6hp.

(33 ft lbs X 5200rpm)/ 5252

I know I'm getting more so what am I doing wrong, not considering, etc? Is that the sum total result estimate of better air in and out as well as fuel delivery?

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marshall13

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Re: Kamikaze II intake
Reply #16 - 05/26/09 at 23:02:56

diamond jim wrote on 05/26/09 at 22:50:35:

No clue. Let me see if he mentions it on his website.

BTW, the most frequently printed info for the stock LS650 is 33 ft/lbs and 30hp.

Crunching the numbers for shifting the peak up to 5200 I get 32.6hp.

(33 ft lbs X 5200rpm)/ 5252

I know I'm getting more so what am I doing wrong, not considering, etc? Is that the sum total result estimate of better air in and out as well as fuel delivery?

i thought it was (PxRPM)/3100 for theoretical HP... been a long time since i peeked at the formula though... if the dyno slips only list MPH and HP, it's inertia if it lists engine RPM, torque, and HP it's strain guage(the modern equiv of a prony brake).... strain guage variety is obviously much more informative....

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diamond jim Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 1425 North Alabama Gender:	Re: Kamikaze II intake Reply #17 - 05/26/09 at 23:25:46 I've seen both 5250 and 5252. http://www.largiader.com/articles/torque.html/ http://www.elec-toolbox.com/Formulas/Motor/mtrform.htm
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marshall13

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Re: Kamikaze II intake
Reply #18 - 05/26/09 at 23:53:39

diamond jim wrote on 05/26/09 at 23:25:46:

I've seen both 5250 and 5252.

http://www.largiader.com/articles/torque.html/

http://www.elec-toolbox.com/Formulas/Motor/mtrform.htm

A horsepower is a unit of power equal to 746 watts or 33,0000 lb-ft per minute (550 lb-ft per second). i cut and paste that from the second link... i also saw the torque formulas... the article in the first link also listed 550 lb-ft/second.... so, our 33 ft-lb of torque motor would have to spin at 16.5 rps to produce 1 pony?? that's 1000 rpm... that makes no sense....

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SV og LS

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Re: Kamikaze II intake
Reply #19 - 05/27/09 at 01:17:19

marshall13 wrote on 05/26/09 at 23:02:56:

if the dyno slips only list MPH and HP, it's inertia if it lists engine RPM, torque, and HP it's strain guage(the modern equiv of a prony brake).... strain guage variety is obviously much more informative....

All dynamometers measure torque from which power is derived. Inertia dynos such as DJ 250 and its clones can print out a lot of information depending which sensors are connected and included on a printout. I part timed on a major dyno shop from 2000 to 2002.

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diamond jim Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 1425 North Alabama Gender:	Re: Kamikaze II intake Reply #20 - 05/27/09 at 05:48:26 So am I using the wrong formula? I like your results better using 3100! Regarding dyno type, here's the link that shows some pics of it: http://www.rodsperformance.com/services.htm
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marshall13

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Re: Kamikaze II intake
Reply #21 - 05/27/09 at 10:58:41

SV og LS wrote on 05/27/09 at 01:17:19:

marshall13 wrote on 05/26/09 at 23:02:56:

if the dyno slips only list MPH and HP, it's inertia if it lists engine RPM, torque, and HP it's strain guage(the modern equiv of a prony brake).... strain guage variety is obviously much more informative....

All dynamometers measure torque from which power is derived. Inertia dynos such as DJ 250 and its clones can print out a lot of information depending which sensors are connected and included on a printout. I part timed on a major dyno shop from 2000 to 2002.

inertia dynos cant measure torque.... they calculate HP by how quickly the wheel can accelerate a large mass... if you track rpm during the run, you can interpolate torque fairly accurately, but you cant "measure" it... the dyno sheet Jim posted previously in this thread is an inertia dyno run.... road speed and HP only, no engine speed or torque figure.... a strain-guage dyno works like a prony brake... as the dyno spins, a load is applied to the roller(a brake is applied)... the restraining arm for that brake has a strain guage on it.. that supplies the torque figure(accurately measured, not estimated by formula), that is then interpolated to HP by keeping track of engine rpm... all engine dynos are strain guage type, but chassis dynos can be either.... needless to say, any mis-calculation or measurement of the rollers mass will effect the accuracy of the inertia dyno... strain guage type can be tested for accuracy with a torque wrench....

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marshall13

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Re: Kamikaze II intake
Reply #22 - 05/27/09 at 11:05:18

diamond jim wrote on 05/27/09 at 05:48:26:

So am I using the wrong formula? I like your results better using 3100! Regarding dyno type, here's the link that shows some pics of it:

http://www.rodsperformance.com/services.htm

his torque curve is lumpy enough to be a strain guage dyno... the plumbing in the pic points to one also.... do venetian blinds and capet blowers equal "climate control"?.... rofl

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Rocco

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Re: Kamikaze II intake
Reply #23 - 05/27/09 at 11:07:43

off the horsepower subject but related to the intake

the stock intake i assume has a filter that sits under the seat right?

so all u gotta do to free up some horses is get the hose that he showed, a filter that fits @ the end and connect it to the carb right?

if i want to leave my battery the way it is would i leave the filter in the stock location or am i not doing anything then?

and i read somewhere about removing the airbox? is that like on a car that the filter goes into? i know eliminating that and making a "cold air" setup frees up horses, but i'm just unsure about the whole thing.

i'm a little nimbly bimbly on dew right now, so if i seem more a.d.d then usual that's y!! Grin

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'95 bobber rat...i guess it's a "bat bike" haha flat black mostly, bare metal tank, header wrap, always a work in progress !

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marshall13

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Re: Kamikaze II intake
Reply #24 - 05/27/09 at 11:17:37

Rocco wrote on 05/27/09 at 11:07:43:

off the horsepower subject but related to the intake

the stock intake i assume has a filter that sits under the seat right?

so all u gotta do to free up some horses is get the hose that he showed, a filter that fits @ the end and connect it to the carb right?

if i want to leave my battery the way it is would i leave the filter in the stock location or am i not doing anything then?

and i read somewhere about removing the airbox? is that like on a car that the filter goes into? i know eliminating that and making a "cold air" setup frees up horses, but i'm just unsure about the whole thing.

i'm a little nimbly bimbly on dew right now, so if i seem more a.d.d then usual that's y!! Grin

pretty much all correct, except that just changing the intake alone wont have a ton of effect... it WILL move your torque peak in the rev range, but increasing inhale efficiency without doing the same for exhale wont give alot of difference... imagine trying to run while breathing through a mcdonalds straw... wont get far... ok, now inhale normally, but still exhale through the straw... not much improvement to your 440 time that way.... get the picture?

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Rocco Serious Thumper Offline addicted 2 riding TcB Posts: 1049 south florida Gender:	Re: Kamikaze II intake Reply #25 - 05/27/09 at 11:24:00 makes sense! so you're saying an exhaust and intake upgrade would be better 2gether! now if i leave the filter in stock location that will still show gain right?
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diamond jim

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Re: Kamikaze II intake
Reply #26 - 05/27/09 at 11:48:46

Improved intake and exhaust will give you gains. But where those differences are will determine how much of a gain for you. For instance, if 90% of your riding is downtown, stoplight-to-stoplight, then gains in the low to mid range would be what I'd first shoot for. Mods taht improved the top end wouldn't seem much like gains due to the type of riding and lack of use of the upper rpm ranges. If the majority of your riding is highway and some interstate, then I'd focus more on increasing midrange and highway cruising power. You really can't do both equally well but you can find a happy medium between the two. Assuming all parts can move sufficient air for all rpms, a longer intake and a longer exhaust will improve low to midrange torque but the engine won't be quite as strong on the top end. In the opposite, a really short intake and short exhaust will improve mid-upper mid range and top end with the trade off being less torque on the low end. That's when you start experimenting with velocity, pressure waves, turbulence reduction, etc,. to fine tune, to minimize the trade offs and to get the most for the fewest $$$.

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marshall13

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Re: Kamikaze II intake
Reply #27 - 05/27/09 at 11:50:30

Rocco wrote on 05/27/09 at 11:24:00:

makes sense! so you're saying an exhaust and intake upgrade would be better 2gether!

now if i leave the filter in stock location that will still show gain right?

so long as the flow path is reasonably unrestricted (no real tight bends, nor excessively long) you can place your intake anywhere... Jim is trying to "tune" his intake and exhaust for max efficiency... just like changes in exhaust, intake diameter and length effect the "sweet spot" where the engine most efficiently packs the cylinder with air/fuel mix.... by balancing the 2, you get the most efficient packing of the cylinder for a particular rev range.... but, what gives Jim good results with his longshot wont do the same for a guy running a sporty muff, or a stock muff, because the "exhale efficiency" is different..... just like with a civic, you have to match your mods to gain power... flowmasters thrown on the end of the stock exhaust dont do alot for the civic, nor would just changing the filter... do both, and you get some gain... put in headers, a high flow pipe system, and the flowmaster with the lower restriction filter, and you see more....

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Rocco Serious Thumper Offline addicted 2 riding TcB Posts: 1049 south florida Gender:	Re: Kamikaze II intake Reply #28 - 05/27/09 at 11:50:39 i'm an around the towner, and i love the low end torque. whatever increases that for cheap, sign me up!
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SV og LS

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Re: Kamikaze II intake
Reply #29 - 05/27/09 at 11:51:47

marshall13 wrote on 05/27/09 at 10:58:41:

SV og LS wrote on 05/27/09 at 01:17:19:

All dynamometers measure torque from which power is derived. Inertia dynos such as DJ 250 and its clones can print out a lot of information depending which sensors are connected and included on a printout. I part timed on a major dyno shop from 2000 to 2002.

inertia dynos cant measure torque.... they calculate HP by how quickly the wheel can accelerate a large mass... if you track rpm during the run, you can interpolate torque fairly accurately, but you cant "measure" it... the dyno sheet Jim posted previously in this thread is an inertia dyno run.... road speed and HP only, no engine speed or torque figure.... a strain-guage dyno works like a prony brake... as the dyno spins, a load is applied to the roller(a brake is applied)... the restraining arm for that brake has a strain guage on it.. that supplies the torque figure(accurately measured, not estimated by formula), that is then interpolated to HP by keeping track of engine rpm... all engine dynos are strain guage type, but chassis dynos can be either.... needless to say, any mis-calculation or measurement of the rollers mass will effect the accuracy of the inertia dyno... strain guage type can be tested for accuracy with a torque wrench....

Even with inertia dynos I always think it as torque which is inertia times acceleration and horsepower comes only when torque is multiplied with engine rpm.
Is the strain gauge similar to old water brake dynos, measuring at a constant rpm? Around here (Denmark and northern Germany) I think most if not all dynos are inertia dynos.

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