Donate!
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register :: View Members
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 6
Send Topic Print
Cam Chain Issues (Read 173 times)
KenGLong
Senior Member
Alliance Member
****
Offline

2002 Savage

Posts: 297
Albuquerque, NM
Gender: male
Cam Chain Issues
05/14/07 at 08:46:11
 
Started a new topic because this isn't specifically about replacing or modifying the cam chain and adjuster.

I'm wondering if we can discover a pattern. For instance, I've read a couple posts that say this wasn't an issue in the distant past. How distant? When did the issue start showing up? Has anyone had repeated troubles after replacing all the worn parts and putting it back together? (I'm really curious about that one.)

If the issue is fairly recent, what changed? Parts hardness? Installation technique? Lean tuned engines? Synthetic oil?

Color me curious.

Ken
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Dr_Jim
Ex Member




Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #1 - 05/14/07 at 11:34:53
 
-
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/23/07 at 14:49:05 by Dr_Jim »  
  IP Logged
verslagen1
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Online

Where there's a
will, I want to be
in it.

Posts: 27687
L.A. California
Gender: male
Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #2 - 05/14/07 at 11:45:27
 
This is a guess, cause I have no way of quantifing it beyond spending money for a legitimate inspection house to go over the parts one by one... not going to happen.

By the SSM, you measure the chain stretch over 21 pins, 5.07" max.  My chain was 5.01" with 21k miles.

Tribal knowledge says attention is required if tensioner adjuster (TA) is out 18mm (.71").  Usually chain and tensioners need to be replaced.  My TA was out 20mm.  I replaced the tensioner guide.  With my modified TA it reduced the projection by 2mm (.08").

The front guide is straight so it doesn't play a part in the 'stretch'.

The gears were in good condition, no wear effident.  We know they are very hard, over tighten with air wrench and they shatter.

That leaves just one surface we can't easily check... the inside teeth of the chain.

We also don't have any idea on the factory installed condition of the TA.  How much does it protrude brand spanking new?  I got a feeling that they stick out halfway from the get go.  Some more, some less, which is why some do this at 10k and others 30k.

If this is a 'new' problem and earlier models had better life, I don't know.  Chain hardeness would certainly be a contributing factor.   Grin
Back to top
 
 

WWW   IP Logged
Max_Morley
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

LT650 Luxury Touring
& sidecar rig

Posts: 1490
Moses Lake. WA
Gender: male
Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #3 - 05/14/07 at 12:13:43
 
I had basically responded to an earlier post and agree with Jim's post. I think we need to make sure we are using oil that has the old type anti-wear in it and that isn't in the current SL rated oils. As soon as the magazine with the article I'm basing my input on gets back to me, I share it with all of you. I'm starting to think Shell Rotella T synthetic or real M/C oil is best. Max
Back to top
 
 

Max at Thumper Acres. '96 Savage bagger, '03 Savage w/Cozy sidecar for wifeni.
  IP Logged
KenGLong
Senior Member
Alliance Member
****
Offline

2002 Savage

Posts: 297
Albuquerque, NM
Gender: male
Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #4 - 05/14/07 at 12:30:59
 
We gotta start somewhere and speculating as to the cause is as good a place as any.

The idea of different oil formulas is an interesting one. I've been using m/c specific oil every time I do an oil change but I don't know what the previous owner(s) did for the first 12,000 miles on my '02.

Has anyone had to do the premature cam chain thing a second time after using the recommended oil?

Ken
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
justin_o_guy
Ex Member




Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #5 - 05/14/07 at 16:01:16
 
I can't remember just who it was that took the time to visit with me regarding oil, but I am running Rotella -T 15-40 Dino oil. Exceeds API CI-4 (Whatever the HEKK that means) also, the brag sheet states it is up to the CH-4, CG-4 All sorts of these follow along with API SL & SJ for gasoline engines.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
verslagen1
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Online

Where there's a
will, I want to be
in it.

Posts: 27687
L.A. California
Gender: male
Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #6 - 05/14/07 at 16:53:36
 
I read all I ever care read about oil and I'm sold on the Rotella T 15-40 Dino, and reasonably priced and available.  Although I may switch to Rotella syn, if a few more chime in for it.   Grin
Back to top
 
 

WWW   IP Logged
justin_o_guy
Ex Member




Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #7 - 05/14/07 at 18:12:43
 
Something I've mentioned a couple of times & had no reply to is the idea of soaking the cam chain in oil a while, so it;'s never dry.

Also, I don't know how this would go over in the crankcase with the clutch, but the drive on the Moto Guzzi calls for a bit of Molybdenum to be added to the gear oil. If we dabbed a bit of Moly in with the oil, as long as it doesnt make the clutch slip or jack up the viscosity, would that help anything?

And, the next time I do the chain, I will be looking for someone who can subject the thing to super cold temps. Like liquid nitrogen. This is one site, just google

cryogenic metal engine parts

& check out

http://www.300below.com/site/motorsports.html
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
justin_o_guy
Ex Member




Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #8 - 05/14/07 at 20:03:34
 
http://www.tmiusa.com/TMIcryo.html

Here's a [place in Texas that will do the cryo treatment pretty reasonably I thinnk, 85 for timing chain & gears. I expect some less for just a little cam chain off a suzuki.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Peter-the-blacksmith
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

Choppers for life !

Posts: 25
Finland
Gender: male
Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #9 - 05/14/07 at 23:54:01
 
Good idea to start a specific topic about this dilemma, that we'll all be in for, sooner or later. As I live in Europe, like some other members, I can give you an opinion that is most common (?) over here.
We don't think it has anything to do with the oil. We seem to have agreed, that synthetic oils are no good for the Savage, since the clutch starts to slip. This does not happen with mineral oil. In my bike I use Quaker State 10 w 40 mineral oil for mc, and I change every 3k kilometer. (Always change the filter when you change the oil, what good is it to have new oil going through a dirty filter?) It seems, from postings I've read during the years, that the old four-gear models did not have this problem. So I think it simply is that Suzuki is buying these parts from another company, and the quality is less good. Pity it seems to be impossible to get in touch with anybody in the company directly !! Angry From what I recall, the "old" Savages did run well without any camchain rattle to about 50k kilometers. I have a chain in my workshop, that is run 60k kms. It is just slightly longer, you can barely see it is worn a bit, so it sure was not bad quality. The chap who had it changed it at 60k kms when it started to rattle. No problems at all before that.
To cope with this "new" problem, brains are working to develop a modified chaintensioner, that will not "pop out".
There are some good pictures at the German site http://www.ls-650.de/community/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1168393837
and at http://www.ls-650.de/Thumperbike/html/body_steuerkettenspanner.html
here is a good picture of Norbert's invention : http://www.ls-650.de/Thumperbike/html/body_steuerkettenspanner_tbks3.html
Soon we will have reports coming in about how well it works.... 8)
Back to top
 
 

the early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese
  IP Logged
Oldfeller2
Senior Member
****
Offline

I love YaBB 1G -
SP1!

Posts: 323

Gender: male
Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #10 - 05/15/07 at 03:23:53
 
Is there an aftermarket source for a higher quality cam chain?  If you are going to have to pay $70-$80 bucks for a new chain eventually, wouldn't it make sense to get a good one?

Oldfeller
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
K1200LTryder
Ex Member




Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #11 - 05/15/07 at 04:56:18
 
The tensioner problems are an inherent, intended design flaw. Once the bike is off warranty, poof ! There goes the chain system, and it's off to the dealer for an expensive repair job.

Nissan did the same thing with the Pulsar many years ago, but they got CAUGHT . The distributors in the cars were designed to implode after no more than 50,000 miles....some made it to 51, but most failed at 49 thou. ( after the 48,000 mile warranty expired ). You could not buy a distributor for the Pulsar from anywhere but a Nissan dealer, at the tune of over 500 bucks.

Nissan got sued for it, and had to pay up, plus fix the design problem...which they did.

I betcha a dollar Suzuki is doing the same thing.

JMHO
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Savage_Rob
Serious Thumper
Alliance Member
*****
Offline

Mechanically
Inclined Amateur

Posts: 6972
Texas (Dallas area)
Gender: male
Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #12 - 05/15/07 at 05:21:33
 
Other areas that may be difficult to quantify objectively would be riding conditions/climate and riding style like block-to-block, high-speed freeway, stop-n-go freeway, etc. as well as the possible tendency of a given rider to either wind out gears or lug the engine.  I know the changes in oil formulations are being discussed but I also think that general maintenance is another big point.  I mean, I am pretty religious about changing the oil very regularly in mine and, except for a one-week experiment with Rotella-T, I have used exclusively full synthetic motorcycle-specific oil, either 15w50 or 20w50.  At my next oil change, I intend to inspect my cam chain assembly just so I know where I stand.  For reference, mine is a '98 that I purchased with 1640 miles on it and now have roughly 9K miles on it.  The 1640 was what was on the odometer and, based on the condition the bike at the time of purchase, I have no reason to suspect that it wasn't correct.
Back to top
 
 

1998|MAC muffler|ceramic coated header|K&N air filter|Amal Mk2 carb|Odyssey battery|iridium plug|NC windshield|Dunlop 491s|Superbrace|EBC brake rotor|12.5" Progressive shocks|Kuryakyn ISO grips
Savage_Rob RidingTX   IP Logged
justin_o_guy
Ex Member




Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #13 - 05/15/07 at 05:35:12
 
I got the OEM, but, the cryo approach is supposed ti increase the life by several times over. Some engines are run 12 times as long as usual ( 2 stroke racing engines) & at tear down need nothing. So, the point I am makind is, a new chain could possibly run about the life of the bike. ! more chain & one 50 $$ treatment & you are done. Hows that sound?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
KenGLong
Senior Member
Alliance Member
****
Offline

2002 Savage

Posts: 297
Albuquerque, NM
Gender: male
Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #14 - 05/15/07 at 06:10:52
 
justin_o_guy wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:05:
1 more chain & one 50 $$ treatment & you are done. Hows that sound?

Sounds good to me. I might just send mine off to get treated. It would take me about three years to find out if it did any good.

Ken
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 6
Send Topic Print


« Home

 
« Home
SuzukiSavage.com
10/25/21 at 20:01:38



General CategoryRubber Side Down! › Cam Chain Issues


SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved.